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Author Topic: Should teachers avoid Thailand?  (Read 4114 times)

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Offline Geekboy

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Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« on: February 11, 2007, 07:34:18 pm »
I got a buddy back home. He wants to come to Thailand to teach. I want to tell him to avoid teaching in Thailand at all costs, but I want other opinions on it. Should he come to Thailand or not?


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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 07:37:05 pm »
Well in the present climate, unless he is fully papered up and can get the relevent police checks I would not advise anyone to come!

Offline bomha

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 08:19:08 pm »
I would also advise him not to come, especially if he's all papered up with degree, TEFL cert, maybe a home country certification.  There is a very likely chance that for two to four years here, he will get screwed over like a cheap whore.  And if he wants to screw cheap whores, there are cheaper places.  I am serious.  Maybe I would advise my worst enemy to come teach here.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 08:35:27 pm »
Good point Bomha

Offline samvimes

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 09:28:12 pm »
Sorry but right now I would not advise anyone to come. The rules are changing too often, they are inconsistent.

We are not transients; we deserve some respect some security.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 10:14:00 pm »
If not already here, avoid.

Offline Jookster

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2007, 12:56:06 am »
I'm suprised, at the responses.

What do people mean by being screwed over? In what ways exactly?


Offline Krungsri

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2007, 07:16:21 am »
Following from M-R's advice: If he's properly qualified and has police clearance there should be no real problem. 

It would help if he's prepared to accept that living and working in Thailand is not like it is back home and that here the rules are made by the Thais (it's their country).  If he doesn't like it he can finish his contract and go somewhere else (or, like many others, go somewhere else and then come back). 

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2007, 05:34:15 pm »
   I refer to Reply #4 above. It strikes me as right on advice.

   What's valid today or next week concerning farang might next month bring a prison sentence. Meanwhile, schools get a slap on the wrist.

   Thais always have been, inter alia erratic, impulsive, capiricious, whimsical and last minute. It is their country. And they're sure making a hellova mess of it. I'd never known Thais could do something as quickly as they've done that and more.

   
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:42:42 pm by Veritas »

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2007, 09:43:26 pm »
   I refer to Reply #4 above. It strikes me as right on advice.

   What's valid today or next week concerning farang might next month bring a prison sentence. Meanwhile, schools get a slap on the wrist.
Namto… umm Veriatas, exactly what do you base your statement above on? Surely it has always been an offence punishable under the law to fraudulently use false documentation to obtain any position within this country! It always been invalid, its just that they have decided to do something about it now!
If the Thais were changing the law to attack foreigners then you may have a point but that’s hardly the case now is it?

   
Thais always have been, inter alia erratic, impulsive, capiricious, whimsical and last minute. It is their country. And they're sure making a hellova mess of it. I'd never known Thais could do something as quickly as they've done that and more.   
W.S. R&J A2, S2.

Offline bomha

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2007, 11:03:50 pm »
I'm suprised, at the responses.

What do people mean by being screwed over? In what ways exactly?


How shall I list the ways?  They may lie in the most blatant way, straight to your face in front of witnesses.  They may reneg on their promises as if they never promised.  They may ignore the legal contract.  Almost surely, you will begin your employment without proper paperwork, and violate national law, subject to fines, imprisonment, and deportation (it happened already).  They may change the working conditions unilaterally, without consideration.  They will often fail to pay you on time, or at all.  They may slap you in public (it was reported), disrespect you behind your back and to your face, and they will almost certainly change failing grades to 'pass' or higher.  They will use the most abominable teaching errors, and then accuse you of the most petty error (or a non-existent error).  They usually will not give you such basic resources as whiteboard markers or chalk, allow you internet access faster than 2 kilobytes per second, police the copy machine as if it were a nuclear dump.....and they will almost surely fail to communicate.  Their command of English may not exceeed that of your Yorkshire terrier.

Now you got me started.  They will......I guess you get the idea.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 11:09:04 pm by bomha »

Offline Krungsri

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2007, 07:27:51 am »
I'm suprised, at the responses.

What do people mean by being screwed over? In what ways exactly?


How shall I list the ways?  They may lie in the most blatant way, straight to your face in front of witnesses.  They may reneg on their promises as if they never promised.  They may ignore the legal contract.  Almost surely, you will begin your employment without proper paperwork, and violate national law, subject to fines, imprisonment, and deportation (it happened already).  They may change the working conditions unilaterally, without consideration.  They will often fail to pay you on time, or at all.  They may slap you in public (it was reported), disrespect you behind your back and to your face, and they will almost certainly change failing grades to 'pass' or higher.  They will use the most abominable teaching errors, and then accuse you of the most petty error (or a non-existent error).  They usually will not give you such basic resources as whiteboard markers or chalk, allow you internet access faster than 2 kilobytes per second, police the copy machine as if it were a nuclear dump.....and they will almost surely fail to communicate.  Their command of English may not exceeed that of your Yorkshire terrier.

Now you got me started.  They will......I guess you get the idea.

Sounds like a real hoot, doesn't it!  How come we're still here?

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 09:51:11 am »
I think it best to stay away at this point in time. As for being screwed over, just look through some of the threads on this site. All the things that got me hear in the first place seem to be less attractive. I remember the 'Land of smiles". now it seems the land of sniggers. We jump through one hoop after another and then the goalposts are moved yet again. It is going to take a long time before this country sorts out it's problems. If I was thinking of moving from my home country to teach I would think twice or more about Thailand. It is not just the JK thing that has made it so difficult. I keep hearing this as the reason. No it isn't, it goes far deeper than that. The events in the last twelve months have not done a thing to help. It is no different than what it was in September here. There is no light yet at the end of the tunnel, just somebody with a torch. If there isn't a big change in just about every issue regarding teaching here stay away there are far better options elsewhere. Having said all that I am staying but heading for the sticks for a bit of fresh air,

Offline blackmail

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 10:23:43 am »
My answer is NO.  Should teachers avoid teaching in Thailand:  YES!  So keep teaching in your home countries, earning 3 to 7 times more money, then come on over and don't even consider working.  I read so much negativity about the Thais on this website, but I find the Thai world outside of the education sector to be completely different.  The weather is great, the food is great (and cheap), the Thai ladies are quite nice, and my business dealings have been extremely pleasant.

Teaching here seems to be a "Catch 22" type of siuation.  You now have to have some pretty specific credentials, but anyone with the required credentials would not be real satisfied working here.  There is a large group that primarily wants to stay in Thailand.  They realize the only way for them to do this, is to teach.  They take 25K per month (often less) and last about three months.  But, there is always another batch of naive TEFL certificate holders ready to take their place.  Some folks seem to think they are going to be paid four times more than a Thai teacher, or policeman and be given an easy job----Dream on!

The school system I was working for in America had two openings.  One for an SOL (Speaker of other Language) Instructor; 31.50 us per hour.  The other was for SOL Program Coordinator; 35.50 us per hour. 

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 10:34:13 am »
Yes Blackmail you are right. There is another group that I have the biggest repect for and that is the ones who came here when it was a better place to live. They then found themselves a nice lady and decided to start a family thinking that all was going to be the same for ever. They have to ride out the storm and stick with it, Fair play to them and I hope that things pan out and back to the good old days or better. I am somewhere in the middle of those groups. I like this country and I have a lady but no kids or marriage. I would leave if the chips were really down but it has not got to that stage yet. So I am riding the storm with the family guys. I would not come here from scratch it is not worth the hassle.

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2007, 12:06:34 pm »
Right on with the Thai class observation. One of the reasons i am off to the sticks is because the people are nicer. Well at least they seem so, so far time will tell. It is the upper class of Thai that makes me cringe.

Offline bomha

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2007, 12:58:33 pm »
Those of us who remain here, are not staying because we want to add substance to our CV.  We do not keep teaching here because our professionalism is rewarded.    It is difficult to pack up the things we have, including the love partner, into one suitcase and fly back to Heathrow.  Not many ESL positions in Dyfed, Gwent, and Powys pay 2,000 pounds per month.

Offline Krungsri

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2007, 03:04:57 pm »
I take up Blackmail’s point that, if you’re currently teaching in your home country (hence are a qualified teacher) and you’ve got commitments and, perhaps, some career goals, that’s probably where you should stay.  However, if you’re close to retirement or financially unconcerned and you want a different experience, you’ll certainly get it here.  If you don’t like it, you’re no worse off.  You can go home or try somewhere else.

If you can get a year or two off work, as many can, and want to try the Thai experience, it is still probably worth a punt.  Best, however, if you know people here first – preferably Thai – and something about what you’re coming to.

I think that to come here on spec, without connections, and with expectations of smooth passage into a Thai managed workplace on the one hand and a primarily expat social reference group on the other is setting yourself up for disappointment.  However, the grass may not be that much greener elsewhere, especially if you’re really cheesed off with life back home.  Still, if you can’t stomach Thai ways, perhaps somewhere else might be nicer (but without qualifications…?). 

Like Bewildered said, people can be both right and wrong.  Thailand may be less welcoming to Farangs than it was a few years ago.  However, it’s probably more welcoming than it was a few years before that.  There was a time when no one could get a real teaching job here without proper qualifications (unless you were a Peace Corps volunteer), and that would most likely be in an elite government school or one of the universities.  And the annual visa renewal required at least three trips two weeks apart from wherever you were in Thailand to BKK before your visa was extended.  To leave the country, if you were in a government school, required permission from the Ministry of Education, i.e. a letter with about 15 stamps and signatures, as well as a re-entry permit.  If you overstayed, even for a day or two, you went to court and were fined.

Thailand has welcomed foreigners as tourists for many years, but it doesn’t want them to get too close.  The courtesy and hospitality rituals are designed to both make a visitor feel special and at the same time keep him/her at a distance.  However, if you know your distance, life, as some have said, though frustrating at times, can be quite pleasant.  I think Thai people really do appreciate foreign teachers who try hard, have some competence and who are not too obviously judgemental. 

Learning the language, at least to some extent, I suspect will also be a must for the post JM Karr generation of teachers here if they want to enjoy Thailand.  Thai people all want to be able to speak English, but most in my experience would prefer not to, including some who are really competent.  (I'm not sure about this.  What do people think?)

Good luck to Arjarnnormal in his venture northeastwards.  Getting out of BKK is probably something everyone would find therapeutic, at least for a while.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2007, 03:43:49 pm »
It is a paradox, one that I am wrestling with at the moment. I hate the Thais as a nation, but often I just love them individually. Makes no sense I agree, and I will be staying here so figure that out - I can't.

Felt that way about the French all my life. abount the Walloons (French Belgians)when I lived in Belgium. liked many individually, but as a collective they make the borg seem positively friendly and nice.

Veritas

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2007, 04:01:18 pm »
   ajarnnormal, until the past October I spent 18 months in the southern provinces. I would emphatically recommend that in any provincial region of Thailand you watch your wallet. Also, Thais in the provinces are far tighter with money than are the Thais of Bangkok; they will steal from the farang because we're farang (it's the thing to do). The simpler and less educated the Thai person is the more he/she will steal from you and/or take your belongings off the clothesline, out of the washing machine etc. Don't let a provincial Thai into your house even if everything is clamped with a Big C bar and you have an alarm system in your doorway. Do you have a microwave? Not any more, you don't! Don't let the simplicity and charms of the countryside and its simple people lull you into thinking that the people, places and things are kinder there than in the Big Mango. Slickers in the Big Mango may be easier for the farang to figure than are the simple country folk with the big smile that means 1,001 things and their fast hands. Always be sure to sit with your back against the wall and facing the door.

     Krungsri, it's interesting how you find the non-existent brighter side of Thailand for the rest of us. Maybe you can begin a penpal service to connect Thais and foreigners so that farang can get the full, whole and complete inside scoop concerning Thailand before deciding whether to come here.

     Mods Off Your Rockers, do keep reading that decrepit English of the dead poets (page 1 of this thread). We can do without the obtuse references, though. And thanks for the negative karma point.

     bomha, that's an excellent quick survey summary of how Thailand screws farang educators. Someone actually needed to know, so thanks for taking the necessary time.

     (Also please correct the excess of space to this post as my "Enter" bar keeps getting stuck, which tends to run me down the page well beyond my post.)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 04:26:53 pm by Mods-Rockers »

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2007, 04:41:14 pm »
   
ajarnnormal, until the past October I spent 18 months in the southern provinces.
MMMMNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, exactly the same itinerary as NAMTOK AND PIBTHONG!!!!!!


     
Mods Off Your Rockers, do keep reading that decrepit English of the dead poets (page 1 of this thread). We can do without the obtuse references, though. And thanks for the negative karma point.
  Obtuse? Sorry! Should I then have just come out and Asked why you have decided to change usernames? And why did you so decide before you got your ass banned again as Pibthong in much the same way as you got it banned as NAMTOK!!!!


   Not everyone here has a degree in Eng Lit, do we?

Oh really!! Did you forget the claims you made under your Pibthong username:

For example, MoE told my present school that having a major (1st) in English Literature will get you a TL but that having a minor (2nd) in same will not. The rationale? English Literature is not actually English--the language, that is!

   There's no need to re-read what I wrote. I was waiting for more, too, some kind of clarification but that's all there was. MoE didn't say, for instance, that a major involves a greater volume of study than does having a minor. MoE advised the school that having a major in Eng Lit is okay for a TL but having a minor in same isn't okay because Eng Lit is not the English language!

Funny old thing memory at your age! Did you forget what was written on that nice piece of paper you bought down KS road?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 04:43:04 pm by Mods-Rockers »

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2007, 05:31:15 pm »
bloody weird ain't it?

Not really, its quite a common feeling amonst many races, I have no doubt the locals here feel the same about us as we do them. I know for a fact that my nearest and dearest detested farang, and still does to a degree, but as a collective, she will readily admit now, that she does indeed find some to be quite good people and one in particular she finds to be the complete dogs bollocks :)

We tend to feel that way about cultures that are in some way different to our own, Ask yourself this simple question:
How to I feel about the colloective and individuals of teh following races"
Italians
Russians
French
Merkins
New Zealanders
Thai
Azerbhajhanis (sp)
Iraqi
Iranian
Serbs
Japanese
Fins
Scots
Welsh
Irish (southern)
Irish (northern Proddy)
Irish (northern Left footer)
Southerners (I seem to remember you be from ooop north)
Lancastrians
Yorkshiremen or should that be men of york?
Argentinians
And on and on and on.......

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2007, 05:33:18 pm »

awww MR, I think you are being a bit mean. He didnt say he had a degree in Eng Lit. Not in the quoted text anyway...

you guyz have some history?

Didnt say but the implication was a mile wide! History and then some!!!

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2007, 01:10:40 am »
HMmmmnnnnn  Armed neutrality! you mean kinda like the Turks and the Greeks batting on the same side within the NATO alliance? I forget which military leader stated it but to paraphrase his/her message 'A fighting force is only as strong as its weakest link.' Quite frankly that’s one link I don’t want on my side!

You seem to believe that the upcoming year is full of foreboding, gloom and doom! Personally whilst I( do see some pretty dark clouds on the horizon. I am not going to start digging the 'sound proof shelter' just yet (see Hawkwind circa 1972 for explanation.) I use the term 'sound proof' advisedly, as whilst the Thais are being extremely loquacious and verbose, there appears to be little substance to it with the exception of the two guys in jail (which more and more is taking on the appearance of being a token witch burning.) I am in no way saying that everything is rosy, far from it, but there again I don’t believe that the TESOL Armageddon has started in Thailand either!

That said the witching hour is upon us and today will be Valentines Day, so I had better get to bed and put on my sweet romantic head! Nite Nite!

Veritas

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2007, 11:11:25 am »
   Happy Valentines Day to everyone and to you especially, M-R. NATO hasn't collapsed because Greece and Turkey are tribal historical antagonists. The North American Aerospace Defense Command survives despite changes of leadership and times in both partner countries, the U.S. and Canada. Etc.

   In respect to the English major thing, you've built it into a giant case. Bewildered reads exactly what was written. I never said I majored in English nor did I in fact major in English. I discussed what a Thai person officially said to me concerning anyone who has English Literature as a major or minor relative to a TL from the Thai MoE. You, M-R, over-read and added much of your own baggage to your reading of the particular posts on the matter (and of my posts in general).

   M-R, in respect to this "soundproof shelter" matter, please don't use a term and then advise us to go off to read someone's writing on the matter. To do so is broadly recognized as bad form. That is, one is expected to write self-contained pieces that per se are clear and self explanatory. If you introduce a generally unknown term, please briefly define it rather than "tell" us to go find the author and the work and read about it. We can do the latter if you excite our interest in the term by your dynamic and effective use of it. Please use better form than you do.

   2007 is off to a dismal start, to understate the matter. Farang teachers are in prison, more wild rules and regs affecting farang teachers are coming down from the ministries, the authorities are being inconsistent and arbitrary, the government and society are more unstable than at anytime in the past 15 years, the future is more uncertain than it has been. Thai democracy, for example, went from the outpatient clinic to a bed in a hospital ward under the previous government. Then democracy went into the ICU in critical and unstable condition.

     I reiterate, whether it is some exceptional example or not, two farang teachers are in prison for doing what their Thai school told them to do. The Thai and farang managers at the school are sitting comfortably at home evenings (or out whoring) while the farang rot in a Thai prison. Not much good has been occurring for farang teachers in Thailand for several months now. The worst of it is that Thai schools continue to get away with murder.

   Then there's the Baht vs the USD!

   (My "Enter" bar is still sticking, so please one of the Mods correct the excess space that follows the text of my post, thanks. Regret the inconvenience and am trying to correct the problem on my keyboard.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 05:39:13 pm by Mods-Rockers »

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2007, 05:38:10 pm »
. NATO hasn't collapsed because Greece and Turkey are tribal historical antagonists.
And neither has it been tested, Though it was generally accepted that the weak area within the alliance was and is this historical tribal antagonism, no other dynamics within the alliance cause anything like the amount or worry for the general staff!



 
In respect to the English major thing, you've built it into a giant case. Bewildered reads exactly what was written. I never said I majored in English nor did I in fact major in English. I discussed what a Thai person officially said to me concerning anyone who has English Literature as a major or minor relative to a TL from the Thai MoE. You, M-R, over-read and added much of your own baggage to your reading of the particular posts on the matter (and of my posts in general).
OK, the inference I took from your post may have bee wrong, its interesting to see that it could have been cleared up at the time, but that opportunity was wasted by yourself!


 
M-R, in respect to this "soundproof shelter" matter, please don't use a term and then advise us to go off to read someone's writing on the matter. To do so is broadly recognized as bad form. That is, one is expected to write self-contained pieces that per se are clear and self explanatory. If you introduce a generally unknown term, please briefly define it rather than "tell" us to go find the author and the work and read about it. We can do the latter if you excite our interest in the term by your dynamic and effective use of it. Please use better form than you do.
Yes, you are correct, but then which is worse? Someone quoting a reference that can be verified by a simple piece of research, or someone giving his explanation of a topic and claiming academic backing but REFUSING to give references to said academic backing?
However, I will admit that I may have made a major error in judgment when I assumed that people such as yourself had the cognitive ability to decipher a meaning from such a simplistic phrase! SOUND a vibration in the air such that it affect the auditory mechanisms of the listener, PROOF used here as a suffix meaning that the root word cannot be affected or have a major effect, therefore soundproof would be proofed against sound, or that due to the soundproofing the user would be unaffected by sound, following so far? SHELTER a small building that gives its occupants protection against something, thus a soundproof shelter would give its occupants protection against sound, again I have to ask, ARE YOU FOLLOWING SO FAR? In future I will try and use smaller words so as not to confuse you!
Anyway a simple google on hawkwind and soundproof shelter turns up immediate hits to the band; Hawkwind, and the song; Sonic attack. Further research would then have led to the work of Michael Moorcock and the fact that he coined the phrase “soundproof shelter” within one of his shorter novellas where the premise was of the use of low frequency sound waves as a weapon.


 
2007 is off to a dismal start, to understate the matter. Farang teachers are in prison, more wild rules and regs affecting farang teachers are coming down from the ministries, the authorities are being inconsistent and arbitrary, the government and society are more unstable than at anytime in the past 15 years, the future is more uncertain than it has been. Thai democracy, for example, went from the outpatient clinic to a bed in a hospital ward under the previous government. Then democracy went into the ICU in critical and unstable condition.
I suppose if you look at like a half empty glass then you may see it thus! If however you look at is a half full glass then things start to gain perspective! Are there any ‘really’ new rules and regs being handed down by different players within the administration or is it perhaps that all the existing half forgotten rules and regulations have been dusted off and finally applied? Neigh not just applied, but actually brought together that may well go forward to become a definitive policy document!  This should not be taken that I believe that this is a good thing and will work! I actually do believe that a definitive policy document is a great idea but I expect that, with the usual Thai aplomb for getting things wrong that this will indeed fail, mores the pity. Yes the interim period will be one of pain for all parties, but, and this is a big BUT, if it were too work then I would foresee great improvements in the pipeline for properly qualified farang teachers and indeed for the most important demographic here; the Thai student.

     
  I reiterate, whether it is some exceptional example or not, two farang teachers are in prison for doing what their Thai school told them to do. 
“Yes, I knew I was breaking the law, but I was only following orders” Now I am by no means an expert in the various legal systems worldwide, but I would hazard a guess and indeed would put money on it, that there is not a single judicial system anywhere in the world that allows the plea above as a legitimate form of defense, mitigation maybe but defense no!

     
  The Thai and farang managers at the school are sitting comfortably at home evenings (or out whoring) while the farang rot in a Thai prison. Not much good has been occurring for farang teachers in Thailand for several months now. The worst of it is that Thai schools continue to get away with murder.
And this is a new phenomena? Surely you do not believe that in days gone by that the hi-so was treated in a similar way to the lo-so under law, surely you don’t believe that the law in this country was traditionally applied in an equal way regardless of class!
The fact is that for a very long time the law here has not been equally applied, but it can also be said that in recent times a change has been happening, not a groundswell change as of yet but a slowly moving change. Yes employees have been winning recently in the labour courts (indeed even farang employees have recently been winning) again the half/half empty thing comes into play here, and I guess it depends on the indicators you use to form your opinions, yes in the short term things are not looking good but in the long term?
       
  Then there's the Baht vs the USD!
As an merkin I would expect the statement about the $/baht to be blamed entirely on the Baht, but a more global look at things will show that the mighty dollar is doing pretty shit against a bucketful of international currencies and its pretty obvious that the case is not as simple as that and that indeed the dollar is weaker than its been in a very long time, but yes lets blame the Thais for this and be done with it!

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2007, 08:11:30 am »
My God, where is this thread going. Maybe M&R and Veritas should branch of on their own somewhere and fight a cyber war.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2007, 09:37:19 am »
My God, where is this thread going. Maybe M&R and Veritas should branch of on their own somewhere and fight a cyber war.
You indeed have a point AJ, I freely admit that there is a cyber war going on against that which is presently using the username Veritas, AKA Pibthong, Namtok and maybe others. There is however a point here, the thread is in response to a question by Geekboy vis- -vis the advisability of coming to Thailand to teach! Some good advice was given but then slowly, well not so slowly actually the insidious ‘I hate Thais’ voice crept into the thread.

A whole list of viable downsides were put up by the likes of  Bomha and Sam although personally I don’t believe that the rule changes are necessarily a bad thing! In response to these downsides I think the response of Krungsie neatly sums up my feeling also:
Sounds like a real hoot, doesn't it!  How come we're still here?

And:
If he doesn't like it he can finish his contract and go somewhere else (or, like many others, go somewhere else and then come back). 
Go somewhere else, and then come back again! Why would that be I ask myself, could it be that the grass although quiet brown and patchy on this side of the fence is, in actuality much nicer that the apparently green stuff over the fence?
You have advised people to stay away and yet I note that you have, at present no intention of getting out merely:
Having said all that I am staying but heading for the sticks for a bit of fresh air,
I grant that you also stated in that post that you would not have picked Thailand given the present situation, yet you will not decamp now you are here, at least at present.

Yes there are many things about living  here that cause me some frustration to put it mildly, equally there is much here that I like! I am the visitor here and as such its my obligation to accept the idiosyncrasies of the locals, if I cannot then I should leave, however many seem to be of the opinion that it is the locals, The Thai who must change and change in such a way as to make Thailand the Nirvana that they want to live in. sorry the world does not work that way.

Strangely many of those who knock the Thai for their ways, and expect them to change, whilst in no way changing themselves are also the same people who feel that immigrants to their home countries must give up all of their cultural roots and attitude of the new country. Some may call that jingoistic, some might go as far as to say its imperialistic and yet others myself included might say that such an attitude is hypocritical. We are here as visitors, we either acclimatize or get the fudge out, but sitting here o the net complaining when too lazy or incompetent to either acclimatize or get out strikes me as madness gone mad!

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2007, 03:15:06 pm »
Hold up there M-R! I also contributed to the 'I hate Thais' thing, and it *is* relevant…

And his view is valid. As is yours. As is mine.
So perfectly true!


I dont see anyone complaining about the 'like it or lump it' approach but I do see ppl complaining about the 'I hate Thais and this is why' approach.
Ah, you are starting to see the point! Nearly there!

There is room for more than one opinion I am sure... and the fact that we differ in view should not precipitate warfare surely?
Yes, you got there!!! Of course there is more than enough room for both sides of this argument/difference of opinion, just as there is room to debate both sides. Care too!

Wow M-R this is a bit OTT. Not worthy of you my friend.
But sadly. All too true, we have seen a few such people on this forum and a glance over at the other side and we can see a shed full more!

Now to save these poor folk with a full rebuttal of the rest of your post I shall do that by PM. If however you feel that my rebuttal does not work and you would prefer to keep the debate public then feel free to start a thread on this subject matter, and I give you permission here to break netiquette and use any part of that PM in the public forum.

Offline bluefalang

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2007, 05:24:12 pm »
seems like some of you boys havnt been laid in awhile.

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2007, 05:36:27 pm »
... the thread is in response to a question by Geekboy vis- -vis the advisability of coming to Thailand to teach! Some good advice was given but then slowly, well not so slowly actually the insidious ‘I hate Thais’ voice crept into the thread.

Hold up there M-R! I also contributed to the 'I hate Thais' thing, and it *is* relevant. If I as a Westerner have been given good reason to hate Thais in Thailand, surely someone proposing to come here to teach might benefit from hearing about the reasons? If not, they dont need to read it.

Quote
A whole list of viable downsides were put up by the likes of  Bomha and Sam although personally I don’t believe that the rule changes are necessarily a bad thing! In response to these downsides I think the response of Krungsie neatly sums up my feeling also:...

And his view is valid. As is yours. As is mine. I dont see anyone complaining about the 'like it or lump it' approach but I do see ppl complaining about the 'I hate Thais and this is why' approach. There is room for more than one opinion I am sure... and the fact that we differ in view should not precipitate warfare surely? If you and veritas have problems and want to punch each other on the nose, may I suggest you take it to PM? or the pub?

Quote
Yes there are many things about living  here that cause me some frustration to put it mildly, equally there is much here that I like! I am the visitor here and as such its my obligation to accept the idiosyncrasies of the locals, if I cannot then I should leave, however many seem to be of the opinion that it is the locals, The Thai who must change and change in such a way as to make Thailand the Nirvana that they want to live in. sorry the world does not work that way.

Yep. Fully agree. But saying 'nobody perfect' is no good reason for them refusing to learn or get better.

Quote
Strangely many of those who knock the Thai for their ways, and expect them to change, whilst in no way changing themselves are also the same people who feel that immigrants to their home countries must give up all of their cultural roots and attitude of the new country.

Wow M-R this is a bit OTT. Not worthy of you my friend.

Quote
Some may call that jingoistic, some might go as far as to say its imperialistic and yet others myself included might say that such an attitude is hypocritical. We are here as visitors, we either acclimatize or get the fudge out, but sitting here o the net complaining when too lazy or incompetent to either acclimatize or get out strikes me as madness gone mad!

I think a word or two here may clear up a bit of fuzzy thinking. In this I will speak from my personal perspective, which I think I can have a stab at justifying. I am not being defensive - I am pretty sure you were referring to Veritas and not me when you stated your opinion above...

I came here because I thought it was paradise regained. I was warned about this view but I came anyway. I expected to be able to work. I cant. Why? Because Thais know how to do my job better than I do. Which they emphatically do not. And the same Thais who send their children to work in my country wont let me work in theirs, other than as a teacher (more on that in a moment). I expected to be able to buy a home. I cant. Why? Because the same Thais who buy houses in my country are racist and wont let me buy a house in theirs. I expected today to be able to buy a sim card for a mobile phone. I cant. Why? Because the same racist Thais who freely buy such equipment in my country deem that the recent AIS promotion is for Thais only.

So I teach, something I am not really professionally qualified to do but that doesnt seem to worry the Thais so I learn, and I get qualified. Barely. The Thais want me to teach because they want improve their their kids and want them to learn in English, either because they want to send them overseas to work or study, or because they want to improve the education they get in Thai which is apalling and which on its own accounts for the subnormal IQ that most Thais have.

So I teach. The students cheat, the management blames everything on the farang because as is well known, Thais are never responsible for anything that gets f*cked up. The management is corrupt and dishonest. The government is corrupt and dishonest. The civil servants are corrupt and dishonest. The business people are corrupt and dishonest. In fact all Thais are by their very nature corrupt and dishonest, and integrity is one of the values the hypocritical shits want their children to learn from me.

So I teach, because the same racist, corrupt and dishonest Thais who want their kids to be less corrupt and dishonest than they are (and preferably be it somewhere else), will pay me to do so while they won't pay me to work in my chosen profession because they think they have nothing to learn from me. And they want me to teach their kids the Western ways, as long as they don't actually have to learn anything from it, and while I am here they will rob me blind, treat me like a 2nd-class citizen and generally be the obnoxious little shits they really are and the whole world knows it.

This is why they build airports like they do and why they dishonestly abuse the drug licensing provisions the way they do (and they will get their little brown asses kicked big time for this - wait and see). it is also why the world thinks they are dishonest, lazy and incompetent.

Now tell me again why I need to acclimatise M-R. Tell me again why by complaining I am lazy and incompetent. Tell me again why observing that they are corrupt and nasty people unless they think they can get their fingers in our pockets or their snouts in our trough somehow diminishes me.

ALL this is of justified interest to people considering working here. The rose coloured specs view is less useful, as is the 'like it or lump it view' as is the 'you have to change if you want to live here' view. If Thailand wants to be a part of the developed world and play in the big yard then it needs to accept that right now it is relatively uncivilised and undeveloped. And they need to stop listening to the liberal Thai apologists who tell them they are wonderful people with a rich culture. They aren't, and their culture sucks.

Don't forget it was a previous government minister that said 'take everything from the west and give nothing back'. Dont forget it because everything you will encounter in Thailand is accounted for  by this one attitudinal statement. Perhaps he should also have said 'keep the poor and ignorant poor and ignorant, but always pretend you give a shit'.

Phew! So there!

/rant mode off


I have to say that the above post is worthy of a full 5 stars. I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!! 

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2007, 07:07:11 pm »
Ditto on the 'no complaints' bit.

Enuff said and enuff from me on this topic. Over and out.
HMmmmmnnnn. That would be about right now woundn’t it, I’ve said my peace and now I think I will take my toys home because I think the game is getting too difficult!!

Ah, you are starting to see the point! Nearly there!
I am sure this wasnt meant to be as patronising as it seems.
Quote
Yes, you got there!!! Of course there is more than enough room for both sides of this argument/difference of opinion, just as there is room to debate both sides. Care too!
And this
Too true it was being patronizing, did you expect anything else when you ever so patronizingly paint a whole nation of people with the same brush, time and time again when I doubt you have met more than a few hundred of them! Open your eyes please, take a fucking deep breath and smell the coffee!

My sympathies, frankly, are more with them than with the apologist with shit in his/her eyes that think the Thai is honest, hardworking and all-around wonderful
So now I am an apologist, merely because I follow a different paradigm that your own.
I do resent though your use of gutter press tactics to make a point, how very jingoistic of you (were you a sun reader perchance, did you ever get past page three?) Do show me where I stated that I: “think the Thai is honest, hardworking and all-around wonderful” far from it in fact!
IF HOWEVER THAT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU THINK YOU CAN WIN THE DEBATE THEN SUCH IS LIFE, I DO PITY YOU THOUGH, it look like whats left of yur life will be pretty miserable if you maintain your stance of staying in a land where the inhabitants piss you off so much! Or do you get off on the misery?


Not necessary since you didnt really rebut any of the substantive points I made albeit you did offer a different opinion.
Ah! Maybe I should then have posted it in open forum! It’s a nice little get out clause you are employing here. Lets face it, any fool can say “you proved nothing in your PM” and leave it hanging, with no way of proving otherwise, but then maybe you are ANY FOOL!

To summarise (now that I have been able to order my thoughts better), my substantive points were these:

1. The Thai is a thoroughly corrupt, grasping and dishonest character who would cheerfully pimp his/her grandmother if there was a buck in screwing old wrinklies. They would and do pimp their daughters, sisters and probably mothers. Maybe even wives.
2. The Thai will cheerfully exploit the ownwership, employment and racial discrimination laws in more enlightened countries while ensuring that citizens of those same countries cannot get the same privileges here. This is because the Thai lives in fear of having his ranch brought out by people in the west who have worked harder for longer and therefore have more money. It is also because the Thai has no sense of shame.
3. The Thai wants to be in the developed world but lacks the intellect, work ethic and conscience to be there. They seem to think they should be there by right because they are superstitious, have a God they can hang on a wall, and think they are pretty damn enlightened. Despite all of the evidence to the contrary.
4. The Thai feeds off the farang and hates the farang for it. Whether it is aid or relief aid (which is promptly then pocketed by government officials or police) or by sucking out the ingenuity of people brighter and harder working than the Thai, or simply by stealing IP rights or property when they can. Or even by putting his/her grubby little hands in someone elses pocket.
5. And finally. Much to the chagrin of the Thai, the rest of the world views them as a simple, backward and not very trustworthy nation, of little significance, who actually do seem to believe that they are 'special'. In short, the world laughs at Thais and shakes it head in wonderment.
6. Thai society is indeed feudal. Several hundred years after the rest of the world grew up.

Again you use a wide brush to tar everyone with! Are you talking here about every Thai or just perhaps some Thais? You see there is a vast difference. If the former then to answer your points above:
1.   So every female Thai is available for sexual services at a price! Do show proof of this or admit it was a gross exaggeration!
2.   So every Thai citizen (and not a number less than 1% of the population) is actually residing in these more enlightened countries and the people we are dealing with in Thailand are of a different nationality and are just posing as Thais! Oh really do at least try and make a logical point!
3.   Show me a third world country that does not want to be developed, it will hardly be a simple matter to cross that threshold into a developed state, But then again it may well get easier and many of the developed countries seem to be sinking into a third world morass themselves, or did you miss that bit about the UK being bottom of the list?
4.   What aid? What relief? Again some proof to show that every Thai is like that would not be amiss!
5.   “And finally.” (with the exception of point 6 to follow) But strangely many, many people in the rest of the world want to come here to live! Now I wander why? To exploit the poor stupid Thais (shame they are not quite that easy to exploit as they are better than you at exploitation. Your words not mine), Maybe for entirely masochistic reasons, i.e. they like to feel that the world and its dog is against them, well ok maybe just the Thai and the soi dog, and get off with continually complaining about it! Maybe a myriad of reasons, who can tell?
6.   And finally. So according to you with the exception of Thailand, the whole world gave up on a feudal system at least 200 years ago. I really would suggest that you go back to school and do some research into world history, your knowledge base appears somewhat lacking!!!!

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2007, 07:54:37 pm »
Mods-Rockers and Bewildered you are both bringing up very valid points. As for Bewildered “tarring” every Thai with the same brush, well unfortunately this is apart of human nature and we are ALL guilty of it at some point or another. However, this does not change facts. Yes, we are guests in this country, but we are treated as a necessary evil and given a general lack of respect. As for the question, “should teachers avoid Thailand?” I would have to say a definite yes due to the current situation of teaching here, i.e. constant changing policies to visas, work permits and teaching licenses etc. This is not including the amount of negative comments on the various teaching forums with regards to teaching in Thailand before the recent changes to immigration and employment policy. I think you have to ask the question, why do so many teachers have more problems in Thailand than other countries? There is no smoke without fire and there seems to be loads coming from Thailand.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2007, 08:33:11 pm »
Mods-Rockers and Bewildered you are both bringing up very valid points. As for Bewildered “tarring” every Thai with the same brush, well unfortunately this is apart of human nature and we are ALL guilty of it at some point or another.
Sadly you are correct, it does not mean we have to accept it though!


However, this does not change facts. Yes, we are guests in this country, but we are treated as a necessary evil and given a general lack of respect.
Again a very valid point, for the most part we are treated well, however, and I agree that this is a generalization here, the Thais do not take kindly to foreigners coming in and telling them what to do, its normally at this point where the respects starts to disappear. When the farang then gets on his high horse about the situation then respect tends to disappear altogether, and the farang then has even more to complain about.

As for the question, “should teachers avoid Thailand?” I would have to say a definite yes due to the current situation of teaching here, i.e. constant changing policies to visas, work permits and teaching licenses etc. This is not including the amount of negative comments on the various teaching forums with regards to teaching in Thailand before the recent changes to immigration and employment policy. I think you have to ask the question, why do so many teachers have more problems in Thailand than other countries? There is no smoke without fire and there seems to be loads coming from Thailand.
Possibly it’s often a case of the lowest possible denominator! Thailand has been pretty lax in the past few years with regards to who it lets in and take up teaching positions, The 3 or 4 cases that have hit the headlines in the last 18 months are, at best just the tip of the iceberg. It’s a sad truth that many (but not all) of those who are the most vocal about all this are also those with only a few months to a year incountry, rarely do you see any of the real oldtimers make similar complaints. Now very often these oldtimers are very competent teachers who have shown their worth to the schools and as such get no grief. Sadly there is another demographic amongst the oldtimers as well, and sadly for many reasons. These are the utterly doodoo teachers who at least have the gumption to keep a low profile, often these teachers will get long tenure simply because they don’t make waves, sadly that is for their students.

For myself I consider myself to be in neither camp, I am certainly not the best teacher although I do try and constantly improve, I think I do a good (but sadly not a brilliant) job of teaching and many students seem to want me as their teacher, which is gratifying! I do however also fall into the demographic that finds fault in the Thai ways of teaching and of school administration. I therefore tend to be a thorn in their side over many things. I guess I strike a good balance there as it’s never caused me to be sacked thou I have come close a few times. I realize though that what I often perceive as limitations within the Thai system are not seen the same way by Thais, so the question I find myself asking is this ‘is it purely their fault, or I am I partially to blame?’ It’s a question I would advise all farang to ask themselves and attempt to give an honest answer too!

Offline bomha

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2007, 10:54:19 pm »
Greekboy, I will just repeat or summarize what I meant to say in replies #2 and 12, back on page 1.  Tell your friend not to come to Thailand to teach.  It is not worth the grief, even if the sex is free.  There is no such thing as free sex.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2007, 11:32:32 pm »
Remember rule 35 M-R. Do try not to patronise me though, you are a likeable guy with a lot of knowledge and experience but sometimes the expressed opinions are a bit naive and the mode of expression needlessly adversarial and pedantic; both of these get in the way a bit.

Of course my own distaste for my current hosts doesnt get in the way at all...  No sir!  ;D

Yes I guess it is patronizing to ask how a man of your intellect can pass judgement on 65 million people when in actuality you have possibly met less than 1000 in an up front and personal way, that’s less than 0.000015%. oh yes surely enough to make a value call. As I stated tarring with the same brush and all that!
Adversarial? Again how is it right and proper for you to slag a nation of people but when someone questions your right to do so its adversarial? Stranger logic I have no doubt exists but I aint see it anywhere not even amongst the worse examples in Thai society!

[/quote]
I am grateful to M-R for giving me in PM some references for enquiry into the Thai psyche:

Psychology of the Thai People: Values and Behavioral Patterns by Soontarre Komin, and
Inside Thai Society by Nils Moulder
The first is partially available online wrapped into the webpage of some jesus freak site down south. The full version is obtainable at all good university libraries in the social science sections or possibly the research sections. Available in Thai and English!

The second you might have to buy, I got it from chula bookshop on demand. Its not your average expats book, and certainly does not explain how to get laid in Nana, but its still a good read to help you get into the Thai mind, or at least get some insight into same!

I would full recommend that they be required reading for any farang planning on coming here as more than a tourist!

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2007, 11:38:23 pm »
Greekboy, I will just repeat or summarize what I meant to say in replies #2 and 12, back on page 1.  Tell your friend not to come to Thailand to teach.  It is not worth the grief, even if the sex is free.  There is no such thing as free sex.
I would tend to both agree and disagree with you here Bomha, yes there can be grief but equally there can be moments of pure joy. Is the glass half full or half empty? I must say though that if a perspective teachers is coming here for the sex first and all else second then I would suspect that there will indeed be much grief, not even the international schools pay enough to be a complete whoremonger!

Offline Jookster

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2007, 12:06:48 am »
http://lox1.loxinfo.co.th/~sniphon/

This looks interesting, I haven't read very much but have a look.


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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 06:07:32 am »
Be careful with that text Jookster, its not Komins work but a christian text that quotes her work in places, i.e. section 5 but even that is paraphrased.

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2007, 08:29:32 am »
Glad this thread is getting back on the original track. "Should teachers avoid Thailand". As far as I can see there are many good reasons to stay here which is different to coming here to teach. As M&R rightly pointed out I am staying but if I wasn't here already I would not jump on the next flight to Bangkok. I think if i wanted to work in Asia I would look very CAREFULLY at the other options in other countries. I stress the word carefully and would do my research first.

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2007, 10:41:38 am »
In answer to the question, no.

If you are qualified to teach, have an open mind and don’t have any preconceptions about Thailand or Thai people and you are not of the opinion that all Thai women are promiscuous, give it a go, you should be fine.

I’ve been here 5+ years, I’m in my early(ish) thirties and before coming over worked at a University near the Elephant and Castle, Southwark, sarf London, a bigger shit hole (the area as opposed to the Uni) you’d be hard pushed to find – at least six years ago anyway.

I was offered a one year exchange (and never went back)between my Uni and a private Uni in BKK, I knew nothing about Thailand, indeed had never previously visited SEA. So I took a look around where I was.

I was living in an estate run by different gangs, the estate was between Bayswater and Notting Hill, although sadly nothing like Bayswater or Notting Hill, I was harassed every evening walking from the tube by people who needed a buck for their next fix, or indeed thought I might fancy a quick fix. I witnessed racially motivated attacks most Friday nights, and my box, sorry apartment, was robbed so often I may as well have given the culprits a set of keys. Most of my salary went on rent for the box, replacing stolen goods and my monthly tube ticket, I for one was not living it up back in the UK, in fact I was getting worn down by being there. I had undergraduate students getting nicked for pedalling, 1 was gunned down in a drive by and I had an international student from China who was found murdered on the banks of the Thames – those where the days my friends………………... 

There’s dishonesty in the UK, it just takes different forms. Pyramid sales, bogus charities, dodgy time shares etc. And the people in the UK, honest as the days long? I doubt it, how many false insurance claims go in every year……..car crash neck injuries, flood damage, accidents on the pavement etc.

If you have a wonderful job and a wonderful house in a lovely area, stay there, if your getting fed up, dragged down or fancy a change go for it – it ain’t perfect, but where is?

As for the work, anyone who has worked in Education in the UK will know that university administration there is afflicted with the same kinda incompetence that we witness here. Don’t expect everything to run smoothly, it won’t.

 If you coming here just to get off on some anti-Thai sentiment it maybe more useful to stay at home and bash yourself over the head with a plank of wood, neither action makes much sense to me.

If you do come, don't think that the Big Mango is the be all and all, get out and about and really get to see Thailand not just BKK.

Just come here and take Thailand for what it is, a third world country, and therefore expect all that goes along with being in a third world country.

 

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2007, 10:54:10 am »
 ^^^^ AFT, the voice of reason yet again! HEAR HEAR!!!


Glad this thread is getting back on the original track. "Should teachers avoid Thailand". As far as I can see there are many good reasons to stay here which is different to coming here to teach.
Yes certainly different! Unfortunately for the majority teaching is one of the few options open that will allow you to stay for protracted periods. A normal working week would be something like 8 hours a day in school or 40 hours a week of which 15 to 25 would be contact time! That’s less than 24% of the week, thus leaving plenty of time to enjoy the ‘many good reasons.’ The nature of Thai education is such that it can wear down many a teacher, so relaxation is a prime requirement, get out there and meet the normal Thais in their natural environment. A majority of Thais in the education field know that they cannot cut the mustard when compared to good western teachers, certainly in the field of TESOL but all too often in other fields of education as well. The Thai EGO (and it does require capitalization) is such that to openly admit their own failings is an anathema and thus we get a situation whereby they will do almost anything to prove some sort of superiority. This is indeed a major issue for many farang teachers, but with a little ‘jai yen’ and by learning how to work the system things can go smoothly at least. A good working knowledge of the law also helps when the schools try to pull flankers.
However, I have to say that if you approach the ordinary Thai without the misconceptions that can build up through meeting the Thai Education anomalies then you can indeed have a good time.




As M&R rightly pointed out I am staying but if I wasn't here already I would not jump on the next flight to Bangkok. I think if i wanted to work in Asia I would look very CAREFULLY at the other options in other countries. I stress the word carefully and would do my research first.
Caveat Emptor! Too fruiting right. Certainly in  the first case the perspective teacher should examine him/herself. I strongly feel that the days of the backpacker teacher are numbered in Thailand, the Thais are demanding papered teachers more and more for teaching in schools, and as we have seen recently the KS rd paper is becoming more a liability than anything.  

So what options are there? As I see it, and others may disagree with me there appears to be four main options:

1.   A fully credentialed teacher. PGCE and QTS (UK quals) or other equivalents, should not come here looking for work, they don’t pay enough to justify the knowledge base of these teachers. That’s not to say don’t come to Thailand! The better international school tend to hire in from outside Thailand, so secure the job back home before you come here. Salaries of 60k to 150k are not uncommon in this sector.
2.   A subject specific degree and some sort of TESOL qualification should land a position teaching in an EP or MEP teaching the subject of the degree, wages between 30k and 50k are common.
3.   A degree (any field) and TESOL should land a position  30k to 45k. for options 2 and 3 the teacher needs to ensure that the school processes the paperwork, if not then walk, if more and more of us walk then he schools will start getting their acts together and also start to get the MOE, MOL and IMM on their toes as well, if we don’t walk then even with paper we may find ourselves in doodoo.
4.   No Degree but possibly a TESOL then its soon going to be the language school as the only option, yes you can get some good wages here(up to 50k), especially if you can do corporate or similar, but man that will seriously eat into social time! Most of the hours will be evenings and weekends, with possibly a lot of time wasted traveling between gigs. You should also bear in mind that these positions tend to be without WP and the like, thus leaving you out on the edge even more!

Option tends to have few, if any administration issues as they tend to be run on western principles, the other three options will unfortunately cause you to run up against Thai administration. If you can learn to live with it then life can be sweet, if not, well!!!!!!

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2007, 11:18:00 am »
AFT it sounds much the same as Thailand. Let me see harrased by guys and gals after a quick buck. Sounds like most foot bridges in Bangkok. An estate run by different gangs. Sounds like some Soi's, maybe not gangs but families. Apartments robbed, well not so much of that but we do have many security guards on our condos.Even though they seem to spend most of the time asleep.
There’s dishonesty in the UK, it just takes different forms. Pyramid sales, bogus charities, dodgy time shares etc. Quote:Koh Samui has the timeshares and if you have ever been to Imperial World on Lad Prao you will see the pyramid sales. Well didgy charities need we go into that one.
If you coming here just to get off on some anti-Thai sentiment it maybe more useful to stay at home and bash yourself over the head with a plank of wood, neither action makes much sense to me. Quote:
Yes great point and one that should be a prime thought. Also as you rightly pointed out Bangkok is not the best example of Thailand. AFT this is a bit tongue in cheek and your post was excellent. :righton: {b<c> :respect:

Offline Krungsri

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2007, 11:29:57 am »
Congratulations on reaching the 200 milestone, AJN!

I'm also happier to see a more positive trend in the postings, with specifics.  I had something drafted but I think you guys have covered it.

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2007, 02:12:15 pm »
Ah. The 'yes but' defence which seeks to justify what is known to be wrong but which is embarrassing. M-R, as you know, it is language that is patronising.
Ah yes, you are so right here, well a little tip for you Bewildered, when you manage to  stop yourself being a patronizing old fart you may well find that it isn’t returned to you in spades. Something to think about anyway!


In ones world view, if a simple majority of Thais are grubby, cheating, lazy and dishonest, then it is valid to express the opinion that Thais are ... etc etc etc.
It was Disraeli I believe who stated “Lies, damned lies and statistics” Although our merkin cousins will claim that it was Twain. It has always been a claim by statisticians that if the general shows X then it surely holds that X is true for all cases. However the lie will ou when its shown that a limited demographic is used!

However, since you invoke Schopenhauer,
Hmmmm well as it happens I don’t seem to remember such an invocation, maybe claiming I did allows you to ramble on about the man and thus skirt the issues at hand, but hey if that’s what rocks your boat besides whinging about the Thais then so be it. As AFT stated coming to thailad to complain about the Thais is about as productive as staying at home and hitting yourself over the head with a piece of 4 by 2! Did you run out of wood?

Hmmm. … patronising… Schopenhaeur. …([here... I]
you might want to remember that the standard use for the elipse is to show where text has been removed for the sake of brevity, when it is a given that the full text is available for the reader if so required, using it to shorten an original text of your own seems kinda stupido when its not available for the reader, don’t you think? )
I would ask though, that you attempt to stay on track and not keep moving offtrack with such tactics as “patronising… Schopenhaeur” But there again maybe that’s why you keep trying to go off track!!!!


Yes, I saw the Brothers contribution. As nice an example of sycophantic ass-kissing as you will see, with just enough of someone elses scholarship to prevent it being completely obvious. Fooled you did it?
Oh yes it sure did fool me, that’s why I stated that care should be taken with the link provided by Jookster, or was that part difficult to understand. I had advised you to go for the original authors text not a badly plagiarized Christian work, as you so patronizingly put it “Fooled you did it?” well its pretty obvious that someone was fooled, or is this an example of contextomy trying to make yourself look good? Well a hint here as with many such attempts by your good self it failed miserable yet again, do try and read all the words of the posts and not just the words you understand!


Yes, me too, esp the good Brother's document which explains both how easy it is to get Thais to think you are wonderful by performing some discrete anilingus, but also gives some fine examples of the principle in action as well. Should be mandatory. I was however intrigued by his surprisingly candid revelation that in the workplace, the Thai is more concerned with developing and fostering good relationships than with actually doing any work. That accords with experience of course but should you not write to him and accuse him of tarring all Thais with the same brush?
I wouls refer you to the statement above! You really should try and not make yourself look so imbecilic with your total inability to differentiate between posters, If you truly believe that I recommended the Christian garbage then you sadly have a lot to learn! Both in the simplicities of reading comprehension and also and I suspect this to be more the case in becoming a far better twister of context, your use of contextomy is sadly even more lacking than the logic of your debate!



I fully agree, and I will also be staying, even if the good Thai lady and true that I married is about to rip me off for 2.5m bt. I am not a fool but she fooled me. Hey ho... what doesnt kill, strengthens.

Ah! Do I read this correctly? The reasons for your hatred of all Thais, is due to the fact that one Thai. Your lady is about to rip you off for everything! The best part of 40k GBP yes, I would say she fooled you, good for her!! But at least now I can understand your (apparently teenage) angst!!

I genuinely feel sorry for you and all who fall for this common trap, But that’s the point you see, its been happening for years and indeed is reported in all the Thai forums! A little due diligence would have pointed out this potential trap before it became a trap and thus precautions taken to avoids it! Sadly it seems that many come here with prevention in the front mind at the start, but then when the prehensile back brain kicks in with its high testosterone levels all such self preservation falls by the wayside.

At least we have one thing to be thankful for! You at least have not, as so many of your predecessors have done, taken yourself down to Pataya shooting club for some up close target practice.


Perhaps I do need to get out into the sticks though, and see if there is indeed another side to the coin. After all, it is possibly true that the BKK middle and upper classes exploit their own countrymen as well as the hated Johnny Foreigner. A broader perspective is always a good thing.
Ah the penny drops!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 02:17:09 pm by Mods-Rockers »

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2007, 02:31:24 pm »
Thanks Bewildered for the leg up and i hope that you do go for the sticks it may do us both good. I don't think anybody would come here if they had anti Thai anything not if they were in there right mind. you omly get that when the rot sets in of being here a while. Some get it earlier than others I anm sure. As you say Bangkok is the first place most people come to and start there teaching but I as I am sure you have seen a different side of teaching in Thailand out of BKK. I still have to actually do it but I think it is worth a try don't you?

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2007, 04:20:31 pm »
I fear we are wandering along the path to sour gripes...........

Bewildered, you, well bewilder me. You bang on about how different Thais are to any civilized race on the earth and then state;

"Crime in any country takes similar forms because people are similar and invent similar crime"

Similar meaning, alike, akin, related, comparable, yes?

So we are alike to our Thai cousins after all?

As I said before, just come here and take Thailand for what it is, a third world country, and therefore expect all that goes along with being in a third world country...............which may well include a touch of anti-foreign sentiment & dodgy dealings along the way.



Mods-Rockers

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2007, 05:02:25 pm »
By the way bewildered, (apt name really isn’t it?) I would suggest that you practice a little with the quote function, your childlike mistakes in its, quite simple use really, is making you look a bigger fool than normal!

Ah yes. The old 'I know it was stupid but you made me do it' defence. tsk. You really must try to move beyond the 'I never make a mistake' thing. Perhap the Thai influence you are immersed in is affecting your judgement.
Oh diddums then, yes maybe the Thai influence I am immersed in is influencing me, but there again that same Thai influence is not ripping me off, in fact she just put 400k into my Thai account! Strange that isn’t it!!!


This is nonsense, statisticians have never held that if the mean of Y is X then all values of Y are X. Arrant nonsense.
Oh I am sorry, did I say ‘mean’? Strangely I just run the thread through a concordancer and guess what the first mention of ‘mean’ was by you above, yet again contextomy badly done! You really should practice if you want to look good taking things out of context, right now you are looking like whipped soi dog!

You never heard of Schopenhauer? Oh. He is the acknowledged authority in dubious and deceitful tactics in debate. Oh well, perhaps it just comes naturally to you.
Heard of him vaguely, but there again your amateurish use of contextomy, which was one of his traits shows that you follow his ideals if only in a childlike way!



Did you mean ellipsis? Only an ellipse is a mathematical figure resembling an elongated circle but having 2 foci. I assume you meant ellipsis but couldn't remember the right word.
wow you got me!!!!! Shame the only way you could manage it was by being a spelling Nazi, shall I start doing the same with your eloquent posts?


I wouls refer you to the statement above!
Wouls you? [/quote]
Oh dear do you have no shame, having to stoop so low to gain points. Still I suppose if it’s the only way you can then so be it. Its sad you have been ripped off but there again you appear to be a very sad man anyway!




Quote
Your lady is about to rip you off for everything!

Didn't say that either. Try to concentrate. Exciteability is fine, hystera is less attractive.
Urmm sorry Bewildered but you did say that here C&Pd from post #58 “even if the good Thai lady and true that I married is about to rip me off for 2.5m bt. I am not a fool but she fooled me.” Ok then maybe you didn’t say it, maybe a big boy stole your username and said it then run away!!! To be a good liar requires a good memory, now I would suggest that you start those memory exercises again! Oh and by the way seeing as how you want to be a spelling Nazi its ‘Excitability’ not “Exciteability” and ‘hysteria’ not “hystera”


Nah, not me, not when your missus gives such an admirable blow-job.
When you are exchanging a BJ for a 2.5 million house, it’s a fair exchange I guess. Oh and bTW at current exchange rates (today) I don’t quite see where you get closer to 30k GBP its actually 38,517.34 GBP but there again we have seen above your prowess with Maths!!!


By the way, when are you next down the pub for a few hours?  I feel the need...
Oh dear do I smell that last resort of the English thug? The offer outside! When logic fails use yer fists!!! Yeah like get real, dude!


By the way, try to get the hang of the quotes thing a bit better would you, it makes the flaming a little easier to read. And I like to be able to enjoy a good laugh without having to unscramble the quotes.
What you mea in much the same way as you abortion above?

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2007, 05:05:11 pm »
AFT yes I fear you are correct. I offered the bewildered one an oppotunity to take this to a seperate thread but sadly that is not his way! I am kinda hoping one of the other mods will split this and allow this thread to follow its own course, sadly I will not mod a thread I am active on so cannot do so myself!

Offline bomha

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2007, 06:12:21 pm »
Greekboy, I will just repeat or summarize what I meant to say in replies #2 and 12, back on page 1.  Tell your friend not to come to Thailand to teach.  It is not worth the grief, even if the sex is free.  There is no such thing as free sex.
I would tend to both agree and disagree with you here Bomha, yes there can be grief but equally there can be moments of pure joy. Is the glass half full or half empty? I must say though that if a perspective teachers is coming here for the sex first and all else second then I would suspect that there will indeed be much grief, not even the international schools pay enough to be a complete whoremonger!
In Thailand, the glass is seldom even half full.  It may be even more fuller in Myanmar, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Campuchea: and that is just SouthEastAsia.  I forget now, if the original post only asked us to choose between Bangkok and Birmingham (Alabama, or England).  Is this only a choice between a council estate in sarf London, and a shack in Klong Toey?

It appears that the original poster, Geekboy, has left the building on this topic.  Is there anything you would like to add about your mate, Geekboy?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 06:18:56 pm by bomha »

Offline blackmail

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2007, 06:25:43 pm »

Yes I guess it is patronizing to ask how a man of your intellect can pass judgement on 65 million people when in actuality you have possibly met less than 1000 in an up front and personal way, that’s less than 0.000015%.


Mods, like they would say in Baltimore; you need to check your Maff.  One thousand out of 65 million would be .00153%.  I hope you ain't gonna work at a pharmacy or a nuclear reactor. {<>

Veritas

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2007, 06:55:47 pm »
   Cannibalism.

Pibthong

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2007, 07:01:30 pm »
   And it's the same Mod and his Sancho Panza who are wielding the blade and doing the cooking. Time after time. Teflwatch is getting to be a turnoff.

   

Offline samvimes

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2007, 07:28:22 pm »
Guys please keep it on topic.

If you want a personal vendetta then either start a new thread for it or do it over PMs

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2007, 07:57:37 pm »
This has gone SO off topic!! It is also turning rather nasty. Bewildered and Mods-Rockers, we are all in the same boat here. Where is the solidarity eh brothers?????? I thought this web site was here to help fellow teachers, not run each other into the ground. By all means have your own point of view but there is no need for a personal slagging match. It makes us all seem petty and bitter.
Anyway, getting back on topic. I have worked in both BKK and the "sticks", and the same problems occur. Whether it is the incompetent Thai administration in the school or the corrupt school owner or just simply the amount of hoops the AVERAGE teacher has to jump through just to become a legal worker in this country. There are far more appealing countries to work in regards to teaching and for more money. However I would like to make the point that Thailand has many positives as a tourist and is more than just worth a brief visit. I am sure that the dust will settle here fairly soon and working here legally will become a smoother transition. At the end of the day it must come down to doing your "homework" when deciding on which country you would like to teach in, what suits one person doesn't necessarily suit another. Geekboy there are absolutely tons of web sites out there besides teflwatch that will provide you and your friend with a wealth of information about the ESL industry. Do some research and weigh up the pros and cons of each country that you short list as a desired destination and then make some decisions based on reliable information. I wish your friend the best of luck.

Peace

wordsworth
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 08:12:21 pm by wordsworth »

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2007, 08:03:15 pm »
 :talkhand:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 08:22:47 pm by wordsworth »

Offline Andy

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2007, 08:09:36 pm »
Yo, dudes, we are all in the same boat together. Teachers are teachers everywhere, least we got this website to talk about our injustices. No more talking about anything on this thread unrelated to whether to avoid teaching in Thailand or not. 




Offline Nemesis

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Re: Should teachers avoid Thailand?
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2007, 06:32:30 pm »
Andy said stop the personal attacks. I agree 100% with RobRoy, post your little tirades in pms or in the Squared Circle. I ain't taking no sides, I just want clean threads instead of an axe chase.  :axechase:

Remember who the true enemy is, the school owners and administrators who are out to suck the blood out of teachers and when they are through using them, toss them in a jail. Enough said, I think you got enough info here Geekboy and that's why the thread is locked.


 

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