Topic: Tax in Thailand

[ajarnnormal]

I just thought that I would ask you guys about this subject. Do you pay tax? I pay tax and I get a rebate at the end of the school year which is very nice. I would like to bring this to your attention because I have heard that some of you are paying tax and not getting any back. So where does it go? i know for a fact of one company that pockets the rebate for the teachers if they leave. I also have just had a heated argument with the company that i had been working for in the evening because I have been paying tax on the hourly pay, some 3 %. I asked them why in 3 years I have not seen any rebates, they told me that my deductions were being taken in someone elses name. Why because they were employing me illegally and pocketing the money. Watch this one it is common practice with many agencies and even some schools. Of course you have to be legal if you are not then don't pay anything.

[ajarnnormal]

For me it is stealing. If they take tax of someone and do not pay it it is the same as picking their pocket. It is lower than a snakes belly. Is there any comeback?

[Krungsri]

Let’s not get too carried away with moral outrage.  Getting round the system by whatever means is an ancient and universal tradition – not unknown in the West, where tax evasion is a national sport, but more obvious, perhaps, in countries where government and civil service are seen as corrupt and oppressive by nature.  In Thailand public administration has for hundreds of years been seen as a vehicle for enriching the already rich and powerful.  It’ll take a while for this perception and the practices that follow it to go away (if ever).

[Mods-Rockers]

Well said that man!! Whilst in no way being an apologist for the Thais, I really abhor the apparent ‘holier than thou’ attitude of many westerners in this country. Let he who is without sin, and all that mundungas.

Lets take a little look at our home countries:

1.   The UK, the present government is sinking under the morass of its own corruption, who are we to say anything about the Thais, As Krungsri so rightly points out, tax evasion and avoidance is institutionalized amonst the upper echelons of society and the lower orders are fast catching up with their exploitation of the welfare state!
2.   The US, Well lets say no more, a government controlled by big business and as many claim by Israel. “War on Terror” more like a land and OIL grab, along with the vast profits that will bring for the perpetuators for many years to come!
3.   The antipodes, not fully up to date on the political intrigues down under, but I did note the other day where Aussie Universities have been caught out effectively selling degrees to non native speakers, who it seems did not have the English ability to pass the entrance exams even after completing the degree!

Yes, there are many things wrong with this country, but why did we come here? Personally because there were many things wrong with my home country. Caveat Emptor does not only apply to purchasing goods and services, we buy into Thailand and Thai culture and thus we have to beware of the pitfalls and try to steer clear of them. Whinging and whining about how they are so bad seems to me to be a road that will only make our perceptions or should that be misconceptions grow out of all proportion and thus make our lives more and more miserable.

There are bad things about Thailand and Thai culture, but equally there are many good things, we have to take it as we find it, and I guess that I see my glass as being half full and NOT half empty!!!

[Geekboy]

The only outrage is taking money from someone and keeping it for yourself. If an employer back in the states did this, I could report him to the IRS, I would get credit for taxes and paid and the employer would have be dealing with fines at the least and possibly jail time.

But hey, if the school wants to dodge taxes and not take taxes out of my salary and report that I am earning very little just to keep things all legit, then it's ok by me.

[ajarnnormal]

This make do attitude is why we as teachers get shit upon, How many times do I hear " We are in Thailand and that is the way it is" I think now as the current situation as regards lack of teachers should give us a bit more say in how we are treated. I am legal and pay tax. If I wasn't then I would not be working here and certainly not paying tax. As I said I pay tax and get most of it back at the end of the year. Let us not start saying 'Oh I am happy that the school
Wangles round me not paying tax. We are not in the upper class and as far as I am concerned it is wrong.

[Mods-Rockers]

The only outrage is taking money from someone and keeping it for yourself. If an employer back in the states did this, I could report him to the IRS, I would get credit for taxes and paid and the employer would have be dealing with fines at the least and possibly jail time.

Same thing here, been doing my own tax returns ever since I arrived in Thailand and yes I have recieve the rebates, even when the school did not origibally pass the tax over to the government.

[ajarnnormal]

Well said B. Why should we put up with something just because "This is Thailand" That cliche makes me cringe. If we put up with this corruption in our industry then we are as bad as they are. Schools should set an example to the nation not be part of the problem. I believe that now there is a sort out with teachers the ones that are left here and have been through the mill should have respect and a say in the admin if it is not right and legal.

[hero]

As a self-employed business owner for several years in the UK I briefly submitted my own tax returns.  Being as honest as the day is long personally I answered all the questions honestly and sent it off to the Inland Revenue - who promptly replied that they would like to inspect all of my invoices and receipts and everything else.  They also suggested that I consult with an (registered tax advising) accountant.

So I went to see an accountant, paid the inflated charge to have him redo my tax return and resubmitted the tax return.  The only thing was the estimated ammount of tax was some three thousand quid lower than I had estimated for myself.  The accountant had claimed tax deductions for things I'd never heard of, assuring me that when guidelines were issued on such things it was expected that they would be claimed for and that was fine.

This time the Inland Revenue accepted the tax return with no questions asked - purely because it carried the accountant's stamp!  I saved two thousand eight hundred quid because the pernickety bureaucrats at the Inland Revenue didn't like the way I filled in the forms.

When the first school I worked at here in Thailand only declared my income at 15k baht to save me a mountain of tax they assured me that it was the norm and as it saved me money I didn't disagree!  These days I have to pay tax on my whole income and do my own tax return, but it doesn't mean I'm not on the lookout for a scam!

Please bear in mind that an awful awful lot of Thai people pay not a bean in tax at all.  As foreigners here we hardly reap any benefit from paying our taxes.  For me it is something that should always be done sparingly and begrudgingly ;o

One thing is for sure, tax avoidance is shirking which is human nature.  One's propensity to shirk is generally only reduced by fear of punishment or incentives to cooperate, I feel neither here or in the UK!  It would seem for some the motivation to cooperate rather than shirk seems to come from some of altruistic spirit - frankly I find that quaint and not a little odd!

[ajarnnormal]

I do not agree that someone should take tax out of my salary and then pay less and pocket the rest. Or that I should work for a company that takes tax in my name and does not even have me on the books. I am happy with the way it works for me at my school because I get it back or most of it. Sometimes I wonder why do I pay it anyway just to get it back. Well I also pay SS and get medical treatment at the designated hospital free along with prescriptions. I have only used it once but it is cheaper than BUPA or most medical insurances. I agree that one cap does not fit all.

[Mods-Rockers]

Bewildered! I am truly sorry to hear about your affliction! Sometimes that dodgy ruby can have terrible effects, sadly it seems to have given you a severe case of verbal diarrhea.

I fear I must break a good-natured lance with you my friend. If you do not wish to appear an apologist for the Thais, or indeed for criminal behaviour, then it is well not to apologise for them/it.

So exactly which part of “he who is without sin” didn’t you understand?

Helps to prevent misunderstanding though I admit the possibility you are wearing your Devil's Advocate hat.

Ahha somewhere down that long dark corridor of understanding there is a dim light twinkling, lets hope its able to grow into an idea, a fledgling idea maybe but still there is hope for you!

Not sure how useful it is but hey... shit smells bad in every country, doesnt make Thai shit smell like joss sticks.

as you say, shit does smell wherever it sits! The shame of it is that so many come here and complain about how Thai shit stinks when they were so manly in attempting to clear up the smell back home!! Again he who is without sin!!!

Well these are pretty subjective opinions, which appear to based in whole or in part on political preference. You are surely not saying that corruption in the UK or in the USA is on a par with corruption here? Or is that indeed what you are saying?

Nope, but as you so rightly stated, “shit Stinks” regardless of whether it’s a small piece stuck to your upper lip or you are swimming in a cesspit, it still stinks! I also fail to see how political preference could have any bearing! Show me a government in the UK during the last 50 years (hell why not make that 500 years) that has not had a whiff of corruption hanging in its closet?

In any event, does criminality in the UK or the USA mean it is ok to be criminal here? I doubt jurisprudence would agree with you.

Does the fact that we did S.F. All back home to reduce the criminality then give us the right to complain about it here?

Hmmm. So if I go to live in Australia I am not able to pass an opinion about the Government there? Expressing dissent is a time-honoured way of creating constructive change. One needs to be at least objective and not fall into the tourist trap of seeing an occasional wai and thinking the place is inhabited by angels. Remember that accepting criminality condones and legitimises criminality. In law (as I am sure you know) silence implies consent. So be thou not silent bro!

Are you familier with the term contextomy? The fact is that nowhere in my posts on this thread have I in any way condoned the criminality inherent in this country. I have merely stated that the same criminality exists back home. I, however, am pragmatic enough to admit that, due to my lack of backbone in not trying to make changes back home, I have no rights to try and make changes here, I freely admit that I point out to Thais many of the problems as I see them but always with the Caveat that there are indeed issues (and ever growing issues at that) back home that I did nothing to address.
 

Whingeing and whining? Wow! You pumping a lot of current through that light bulb Skippy! Those words are perjorative and most often used when one wishes to denigrate the viewpoint of someone else without actually addressing the issue. It also seeks to demean the person having the offending view by labelling them a whinger and a whiner. Not good debating style.

Again a simple rebut: LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE”

With respect MR, this is a fine bit of humbug and I doubt you would be so understanding if you had been ripped off, or indeed arrested and flung in jail as were the victims of school criminality recently. I suspect you would see your glass as being half empty pretty damn quickly with a few examples of your much-beloved Thai culture keen to sign on as your proctologist.

Whilst I have every sympathy with the Kornpitacksuksa Two, the fact remains that they were behaving in a criminal fashion, yes I realize that they have been punished whilst the school appears to have got away scot free. If indeed I had been behaving in a criminal fashion and got caught I have no doubt I would be unhappy, I would however be fully accepting that the criminality I had indulged in was what got me into that position, or are you a firm believer in the “ A BIG BOY DID IT AND RAN AWAY” school of criminal defense?

In any event, since you make the statement, can you name any 3 things that are good about the Thai culture?

Well two of your reasons are :
“Because it is sunny and the girls have nice legs”

Personally I am quite fond of the smaller bubbles! Sunny, yes, but hey that’s hardly culture that’s climate!

3 things? It would be easier to name 30 things I did not like, call it ‘a feeling in my water’ if you like as its about as quantifiable as that. However if this helps; if magically overnight tonight the entire population of the UK and that of Thailand were to reverse locations, then tomorrow morning, cold, wet, miserable February rains notwithstanding, I for one would be making a B line for whatever airport they deem to designate flights to blighty will take off from!



Now as this is getting so OFF TOPIC, could one of the other MODS please split this off into another thread! I would do it myself but I don’t mod threads I am active on!!!

[hero]

Do you class declaring a lower income than one is receiving to be 'tax evasion' or 'tax avoidance'?  Either way I'm all for it - provided I can get away with it or blame somebody else if I get caught

[Mods-Rockers]

The problem is Hero, what happens if you get caught, remember the Kornpitacksuksa Two, the school was equally to blame but they got away with it.

If the IRS or whatever that Thais call it decided to get off their asses and check up and compared the amount stated on your contract with what is stated on your tax return who do you think will end up behind bars? The fact is the school could easily state that they only took minimum tax from the teachers and it was up to them to fill in tax returns and pay the remainder themselves. Beware!!

[Mods-Rockers]

As a quick aside here Hero, are you really sure that you are not paying too much tax?

If your employer says to you that they only declare to that taxman a rate lower than the actual rate of pay and thus save you tax, are you really going to check up if that is correct and risk losing more? It’s a lovely catch 22 scam. It just may be the case that your tax liability on your full wages is less that the school states you liability is on the reduced wages they claim to do make deductions on!

If you want to check, the Thai IRS has a lovely online calculator along with pages of notes on how to fill in in (available in Thai or English) fill in the figures and do that calculation. Then print it out and take to the Tax office, you normally get whatever rebate is due within 2 months, though if there is a shortfall you pay immediately. Only ever had to pay once and that was when I worked for a rajabot and they did no tax withholding.

Check out the calculator and you may be in for a surprise! It may well be that your school is ripping you off by telling you that you are ripping off the government!

[Mods-Rockers]

Have you just discovered the Lord M-R? You got Jesus dude? You arent going to start getting all happy/clappy now are you?

Not while my ass points downwards M8

And that makes Thai corruption acceptable? How exactly?

Now where did I say it was acceptable, What I said was we should clean up our own shit before we complain about others, Come on now that’s hardly rocket science! IS IT?

In any event, does criminality in the UK or the USA mean it is ok to be criminal here? I doubt jurisprudence would agree with you.

Does the fact that we did S.F. All back home to reduce the criminality then give us the right to complain about it here? [/quote]

Did you do sweet f/a M-R? I didnt. I brought down the Major government. Want me to tell you how? I am afraid you won't approve though... not now you found the Lord and all...

You really should be careful about giving your identity away so easily, there was only one person who could claim to have brought down the Major government and that was the grey man himself! OR are you really MR Norman Major, failed politician?

And claiming to have got rid of the old shit merely to replace it with new fresher (and therefore smellier) shit is hardly a lifetime achievement now is it?

ps. you like smaller bubbles? What bubbles? Is this a 'Jesus' thing?

Ah yes, a throwback to the old ajarn swear filter, lets see if your logic is up to a challenge:

Small = A B
Not small = C D DD and fucking humungus