Topic: Union, why not?

[Andy]

America works best when we say union yes. Yeah, I grew up in the trailers down off of south central. I remember that sayin' but I can tell you a few damn things a union did for me. First off they give my daddy the best damn pay he ever got. See my daddy spent two years workin' a close confidant to Moe. I ain't gonna say his last name. Moe made his considerable fortune by gettin' the unions to organize workers and then investin' teamster union dues in various legit businesses. Contrary to what some people have to say, Moe was a great guy.

In fact, 8 years after his death, a buddy decided to take some bookies' advice and bet on a sure thing, when the sure thing turned out to be not so sure, my buddy called up the flooser bookie and told him what the real deal was. The flooser was such a prick that he called back the office phone and proceeded to curse my friend out and threaten him with mob heavies from Vegas. Yeah right.

I took the phone and told them to send their boys on down from Vegas, or better yet have them give me call. 15 minutes later I got a call from the "Vegas" heavies. They claimed to be mobster freaks from Vegas, yeah right, pricks they were. I told them, if they was mafioso then they would know who Moe was. Didn't know him? Then give your f*cking name so I can call my peeps in Vegas and they can visit you to settle this amicably. I told them, if you think I'm jerkin ya then ask anyone who Moe is and they will set you straight. They hung up and the floosers never call again.

Good thing unions can be. Want a TEFL teacher union or just an organization? I personally don't want some corrupt organization that makes its money off of getting gullible teachers to pay some dues while a fat cat profits. If this is gonna be done and wants any kind of clout then it needs to be transparent and free, run by donation only. Peeps, I am working on makin' it a reality, but I want your input. I'm giving myself 12 months to form one and I want your help.

Give me your ideas. I will help out with idea #1

1) No charge for membership

 

[RobRoy]

Unions and Thailand....oxymoronic......how can a teacher making 30,000 baht make a complaint to the law with a school owner with just a little bit more money...a lot more money ...


At the end of the day, everyone here wants to take care of their families, and extended families....the more money from tution, bribes and good deeds that allows the family and the business (school) to do better is a good thing...thats the way Thais think...not necessarily a bad thing, because they put family first, quality second


But I've only been here a short time, I'm very inexperienced
Bob

[Andy]

Yo dawg, that's why I'm askin' for your help. What could a union even hope to accomplish, nothing. If it was backed by 5000 to 10,000 teachers then would that make any difference? I thought Asian were about savin' face or are Thais different?

[bomha]

Unions work better in some countries  than they work in other countries.  Hey Andy - are the federal Mexican police still killing and burning those UNION TEACHERS  in Jaxaca?  They were last week, I think.

[RobRoy]

Andy,

Here is you argue with a boss, elder, someone with more authority with you its a loss of face. Here, you never question authority unless you are rude.   You might question a decision in a indirect way but calling your boss or bosses not good (starting a union) would be too much loss of face for the workers.

[Mods-Rockers]

Well I would tend to disagree with you regarding unions in the UK, they killed more industries than anything: shipbuilding, mining and steel to name a few. Getting your members a 10% pay rise which then causes 12% inflation and the death of the mens industry does not seem like a good idea to me.

[RobRoy]

Maybe I didn't explain clearly....In Thailand, no union will or can happen because its a loss of face to the workers

[hero]

Well I would tend to disagree with you regarding unions in the UK, they killed more industries than anything: shipbuilding, mining and steel to name a few.

Not really.  I don't think the UK would be a competitive force in any of those industries had their never been unions.  Either that or the UK would still be operating on salary levels that would allow it to compete with second-world former Soviet bloc countries.

It's a very complex economic argument IMO, bit like the old chicken and egg quandry!

In the UK one could say that in education and healthcare (as two examples where public goods are provided) the unions have done very well over the years to keep the relevant issues near the top of the political agenda, along with keeping upward pressure on both salaries and standards.

[anyonefortennis]

Unions in the UK have never recovered from Maggie stamping all over them in her Jack boots throughout the 80's, poor old Arthur and his buddy Kinnock never stood a chance!

M-R, I thought the Tories wiped out British industry, you mean to say it was the unions? 

[Mods-Rockers]

Yes one could argue that maggies dogs administered the coup de grace to both ship building and the pits but both had been in the death throws for  at least a decade before that. Steel is still limping along but good old tony has administered the poison pill there in fully allowing an american conglomorate to take over, their performance to date has been abysmal especially in areas of H&S, but even so British steel is a mere shadow of its former self.
And yes most of the problems can be traced back to union action!

[Nemesis]

 

You're right, most of the problems can be traced back to people fighting for a fair wage.

[Mods-Rockers]

I refuse to be drawn into a fight over this issue Nemisis, A fair wage for a fair days work is not now nor has it ever been an issue. The death knell for the shipbuilding industries in the UK was not about money, wages or working conditions caused by the bosses, but a stupid hissy fit between two different unions regarding job demarcation. You might want to look up the "who twangs the string" incident from the early 60's, In fact many of the strike during that period were caused more by the union fat cats trying to get more of the cream than anything else. I come from a family which traditionally had very strong union connections going back to Tolpuddle, but all with the exception of two rabid communists gave up their union memberships in that period due to utter disgust with what was happening to a once proud tradition.

[Nemesis]

Point taken, touche. Ain't it always about power and money?

[Mods-Rockers]

that we agree on!

[RobRoy]

Sorry, got confused, thought that this was a Thailand thread....good to know how unions have helped or "confused" labor issues in England....but I thought the OP was about forming a union in Thailand.....

But I may be wrong...what do I know...

Bob

[Mods-Rockers]

It was, and in reality still is, but there is an old maxim that those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it!

[bomha]

We are language teachers.  We know the power of words.  *UNION* is a bad word.  Association, group, leauge, fraternity, old phart's club.  Esteemed and steamed association of farang farts trying to teach something in Thailand.

[hero]

The death knell for the shipbuilding industries in the UK was not about money, wages or working conditions caused by the bosses, but a stupid hissy fit between two different unions regarding job demarcation.

Whatever. 

Actually the reason that all the industries you mentioned ceased to be in the UK was that they ceased to be competitive.  They could have stayed competitive with employees falling well behind the rest of the nation in terms of material benefits.  Clearly that suited nobody!

The unions were very active in looking after their members when industries collapsed - lots of re-training help etc.  Don't believe what the Thatcher government told you, without unions in the UK shipbuilders, miners, steelworkers then and teachers, nurses and others now - employees would be far worse off!

Let's not confuse economics with politics - that only makes politicians seem intelligent!

I come from a family which traditionally had very strong union connections going back to Tolpuddle, but all with the exception of two rabid communists gave up their union memberships in that period due to utter disgust with what was happening to a once proud tradition.

In that case, the word "union" probably evokes powerful feelings - let's not lose sight of the facts.  We could certainly benefit from some sort of organisation here in Thailand.  We are professionals, are we not?

[Mods-Rockers]

Actually the reason that all the industries you mentioned ceased to be in the UK was that they ceased to be competitive.  They could have stayed competitive with employees falling well behind the rest of the nation in terms of material benefits.  Clearly that suited nobody!

Both statements above are perfectly true, However the second statement did have another alternative, they could have stayed competitive if the unions, and more importantly the union members had truly accepted and, implemented the productivity aspects of many of the pay rises they were given. If those industries had merely remained as productive as they were then they would still survive, if they had increase productivity then…

Don't believe what the Thatcher government told you, without unions in the UK shipbuilders, miners, steelworkers then and teachers, nurses and others now - employees would be far worse off!
Let's not confuse economics with politics - that only makes politicians seem intelligent!

One could equally state here “Don't believe what the Unions told you” and believing either side’s story would be equally as stupid. It could be argued that the unions were more conservative that the Tories if you take the meaning of ‘conservative’ as being resistant to change. And that was indeed one of the major problems that caused the deaths of those industries. Wanting ‘more for less’ was, and indeed still is a recipe for disaster, being will to give more productivity was unfortunately something that was seen by the unions and their members as being capitulation with regards to demands for more pay.

We could certainly benefit from some sort of organisation here in Thailand.  We are professionals, are we not?

Whilst I would agree with the first statement, I would need a definition of professionals before I could come to any form of agreement with regards to the second statement.

[Andy]

I am ignorant ghetto trash, but where are those ships being built or is there no need for ships anymore? 

Did the unions ruin the call center industry in England? I know a damn good bunch of them jobs have been farmed out to India. Were they forced out by radically increasing wages in England or by the fact companies could save money by farming the jobs out to India?

Companies are in business to make as much profit as they can, ain't they? Why is it wrong for workers to demand as much dinero as they can? Ain't it better for companies and workers to BOTH be reasonable?

 

[Pibthong]

Guys,
   It seems to me we went thru this discussion months ago in the "All Teachers Unite For The First Time" thread, which was clipping along very well until it fell dead the moment one of us suggested an actual meeting of foreign teachers for a weekend in Bangkok. I think the fate of the previous thread helps to explain why and how this thread has become very informative about unions in the UK. Which is to say...

[hero]

I believe the word "union" affects people.  "Organisation" is much better IMO.  The other thing noticable whenever it's mentioned is that people so often equate unions with having only one objective, that of getting more money for its members!

I would like to be a member of an organisation that could offer legal advice if I needed it, support if I needed it and perhaps organised teacher development opportunities.  I most certainly wouldn't want to be part of anything that sought to establish some kind of collective bargaining initiative to increase teachers' salaries, that simply wouldn't work!

I was a member of a union in the past - not because I'm a loony lefty - because I thought it was a small price to pay to have an organisation "on my side" if anything went wrong (disciplinary, accident etc.)  I would like to have some similar "security blanket" over here - heck, I don't even really know what's the best way to handle health insurance here, a teacher-friendly organised advice service would be great for al of us!

Unfortunately, like others, I don't have the time or particularly the will to set it up.  I would certainly be among the first members though if I thought it was properly organised!

[Pibthong]

   I too was a union member in the States, both in education and in the US Government Civil Service. In the US Government Civil Service I was vp of my union's region. So I'm in agreement with you hero and others, as you probably recall from the original thread on the subject. An organization, yes, positively. Something with the name "union" to it almost surely would get us into a shallow grave in a forest in Isan. But an organization of some sort, sure.

[Andy]

for the same reason that TEFLWatch is international, maybe the union or organization should follow suit?

 

[airpuka]

ill sign up if you ever get it rolling and iim pretty sure any other teacher i know will as well

[ajarnnormal]

I remember putting a thread on this site and ajarn.com. "Unity in the Telf world". It got torn to bits on ajarn and not much went on over here. I think a Union is a good ides but in Thailand it would be hard to get started and even more difficult to keep going.

[Nemesis]

When Andy says he is getting things going on a union, trust that he is. We will be having a beginning in the next 3 months, I am sure.

[ajarnnormal]

Sounds good and I look forward to the developments. I beleive him.

[RobRoy]

I agree with the "organization" title.....combine it with verifiable documents and with the proper seminars to qualify the members for a TL under the new requirements and I bet it would fly here.  Give the Thai's a way to not have to work to verify all the paperwork that the government will approve of the teachers would make it worth it....think about how much BCC would pay for such a service, not to mention other schools with the same sort of problems....

But, if one, and only one teacher made the "headlines" the whole organization would come down quicker than a whores panties.  And with the number of fakes here, how long would any teachers organization last?  What crediblity would anyone gain?  How to induct members would be a critical part of the organization.

Just my thoughts...

[hero]

I was just contemplating that myself RobRoy.  It would be great to be able to go the authorities here with some kind of legitimacy and say, "We want to work with you in cleaning up the image of this profession here."  Partner that mission with improving the lot of teachers here and it's a sure winner.

Personally I think it's a great idea.  But, unfortunately, despite the fact that I would stick my neck out for any fellow teacher I can't help thinking of some of those I have met in my five years here and wondering if we will ever be taken seriously en masse.

[ajarnnormal]

How can we ever get taken seriously? We try our best to teach our students and get little or no respect from a great percentage of them. Why? Because they have it in their tiny brains that they are dealing with someone who has little or no infuence on their education and future. Again, why? They no that they can not fail. The parents no that they will not fail. So they no that we lie about there grades, their progress. Is this the way to be taken seriously.

[Krungsri]

One thing a professional union does is build walls around itself so that it knows who it’s representing.  These walls are usually based on agreed qualifications to do the job, so interlopers are not getting in that will lower the status of the union and its members or weaken their bargaining power.  (Hence, Nemesis's question in the other thread is such a pertinent one.)

Another thing is ideally to reach agreement with the employer or the employers’ representative body to deal only with the one union.

Having attained agreement on who can be a member, the union can then work out what services it provides and at what cost to the members.

Having gained recognition from the employer/s it can then negotiate with them on salaries, terms and conditions.

If there is a dispute, the union will represent members, but only up to a point.  If it is established that the member is at fault, the union will back off.  After all, it needs to be seen as responsible and consistent. 

Where the member is guilty of dereliction of duty, the union will not back him/her indefinitely.  Where the employer is guilty, the union and employer will sit down to negotiate.  If agreement can’t be reached industrial action will be taken until it can.  This tests the strength of both parties.  Agreement of some kind is nearly always reached and binding on members of both unions and employer organizations.  Excessive militancy is usually pulled into line by political action or weakened by fragmentation of the militant body. 

TEFL and related teachers in Thailand have no agreed criteria for membership of the profession.  It clearly isn’t a profession for many.  And who would a TEFL teachers’ union negotiate with?  Many are in the private sector, with no real sense of fraternity, and it’s hard to see private employers cooperating to the point they’ll sit down with unions in the gentleman’s club that industrial relations becomes in the West.  The whole face thing would prevent any kind of negotiation.  I suspect that, in Thailand, employers would give up on English teaching before they'd concede to industrial bargaining.  They'd diversify or even lose money rather than lose face.

[freedom fighter]

Teachers Union?

In theory it sounds like a good idea; in fact in any fair, modern, civilised, society it has a place, here in Thailand however it would either be ineffective or ignored.  Unions without any power are .

The only real way to stand up for foreign teachers rights here is to do it with the backing of media (forums, not CNN).  If they see that we are advising teachers to avoid teaching in thailand and if they have a lack of teachers as a result of it, then soon enough they will start to ask what can be done to fix the problems.  In fact ANY serious industry issues that are relevant to aspiring teachers should be highlighted on the net as often as possible.

Sure it'll take time, but market forces are the only things 'money minded' people listen to and they WILL start listening soon.

Perhaps Andy can obtain a list of all the independent teacher relating forums so that people can air their views en masse?  (Like the way I palm off the work to you?)

[Mods-Rockers]

Lack of teachers might be the problem with your idea FF, sadly there are far too many who come here for reasons other than teaching and take teaching jobs just to extend their stay. This sort will always take positions regardless and thus will we ever see a shortage?