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Author Topic: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand  (Read 5766 times)

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Offline Nemesis

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Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« on: November 27, 2006, 11:13:14 am »
Someone has decided to do this to the ratings on Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand just to overshadow a few users who have decided that the school isn't all that it seems.

188    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:32    192.168.91.75 / 192.168.91.75
187    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:31    192.168.91.76 / 192.168.91.76
186    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.147 / 192.168.91.147
185    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.71 / 192.168.91.71
184    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.67 / 192.168.91.67
183    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.72 / 192.168.91.72
182    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.60 / 192.168.91.60
181    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:28    192.168.91.58 / 192.168.91.58
180    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:24    192.168.91.63 / 192.168.91.63
179    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:24    192.168.91.59 / 192.168.91.59
178    Guest    User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5User Rate This Post 5 Stars Out Of 5    Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand    24th November 2006, 02:24    192.168.91.61 / 192.168.91.61

There are ten other ratings that follow the same patterns. Why is this school trying so hard to discount the opinions of others?


Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 11:40:51 am »
Maybe they'll soon be wishing they hadn't!

Perhaps the best message to them, whoever they may be, is that this site is available for them to come and post the reasons why they feel this school is good.  They can't really expect an anonymous ratings system to be as effective as a full-on "This school is great!" thread, can they?

Let's have it - explain for us all exactly why the school's so good.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 01:11:23 pm »
Perhaps the 'rate this school' should be available only to registered users.   If a user feels that anonymity is required then it is fairly simple to obtain another login for this site...

Offline Andy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 01:19:45 pm »
Yeah, but the ease of comin' in on a google search and rating a school is a big plus but I may have to resort to it. It just cheapens the quality of data because 1 school has decided to abuse it. Better to punish the school than the teachers, eh?


Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 02:39:33 pm »
It sucks but guys the whole thing leads itself wide open to this the same as if someone wants to knock a school. It is back to the " Who do you believe." But I agree with you this is taking the p---

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 02:59:30 pm »
It's a shame because I guess they could be a really good school - just an over-exuberant satisfied teacher who wanted to share his joy with the world sending in all those 5-star ratings!

If only they'd come here and tell us how good it is!

Offline Andy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 04:08:05 pm »
Ajarn, good point, but nobody has bothered to do it to a school yet and I would deal with it the same way, I would drop the ratings on the post and let people know what had transpired. See, I got a nice little interface that tells me the IP addresses and times that anyone votes and what rating they gave to what.

You may think that I wanna knock the schools, no I don't. I want teachers to be able to find good schools and avoid the bad schools. I ain't got any other agenda than that.


Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 08:03:06 am »
Yes Andy that's cool. As you know I am at one of the so called bad schools. i have no intention of doing anything like what went down here. I think if my school can get it's act togeter and do it the right way all well and good. I just think that when a school does this it is hiding something.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 08:19:00 pm »
hero - It's a shame because I guess they could be a really good school - just an over-exuberant satisfied teacher who wanted to share his joy with the world sending in all those 5-star ratings!

If only they'd come here and tell us how good it is!


Andy - Ajarn, good point, but nobody has bothered to do it to a school yet wh

Hey guys, I had the balls to stand up for my school.  Has anyone spammed from Satit Ram? Has anyone complained about Satit Ram?  Yes, I know its early in the postings..But I did let the people here know how good it is, why its good to work there and actually BOTHERED to do it......

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 08:21:37 am »
You make a good point RR. I am sticking up for my school even though it is in HofS. You take it as you find it and defend false posts that is the best I can do. I am long in the tooth to be a hero and I would not know what to do between phone boxes.

Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 12:10:14 am »
If only they'd come here and tell us how good it is!


To Nemesis, Hero, Andy, and, mostly, all teachers trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, as far as schools go.

I've noticed a certain forum activity around the Phitsanulok Phittayakom school recently. Your doubts concerning Phitsanulok Phittayakom (PP), are well-grounded. Allow me to explain: until the second week of November, I was working at PP as an English and Computer Science teacher, teaching Mathayom 1, 2 and 4. However, I was given the boot for being too critical, for rocking the boat too much. Obviously, I was given other reasons for my instant dismissal, ranging from "lack of preparation for the subjects you teach" (without storming into a yea-nay discussion, how would they know? Not once was I observed or asked about my lessons or preparations thereof), "lack of student reinforcement" (whatever that means) to the utterly mendacious "waiting for the school.....before you taught the required curriculum" (makes me wonder what the students and I were doing during all those computer lessons.... That's it! We were surfing the web and chatting with our friends across the planet!). One can only smile at the immense creativity they deployed in concocting the letter of dismissal.

What I suspect has happened is that they feared bad press about the school from me and, as clever as they are, they probably thought by posting these messages they could pre-empt my "lashing out" at them (just for the record, this is the first time I'm going public with my experiences of working at PP). All I can say is: sad and typical. As far as I can see it, it all just fits perfectly well in their way of thinking, or, perhaps more accurate, lack thereof.

I'm not interested in slinging mud or stooping to their level. I'm also not going to name names, but I do think, especially after the recent postings on this forum, that people/teachers have a right to know what's going on at this school. After all, I'm not the first person to be sent away, instantly, from this school. And, as a rule of thumb, knowing a few more details beyond the skin-deep ones, helps in making decisions.

PP is a rather large secondary school with roughly 3000 pupils. About four years ago, they started an English Programme and pupils had to pass an English language aptitude test in order to enter the programme. This year or the year before (I'm not entirely sure about the exact date), they dropped this requirement, purely for financial reasons ("raking in more money", as one of the Thai staff from the English Programme said). However, this has led to problematic situations where pupils are, sadly, unable to fully participate in classes due to a complete lack of basic English skills.

Why is this relevant? Well, when I was interviewed, they promised all kinds of things: "a really good level of English", "all the facilities you wish", etc. It all sounded very promising and together with two other teachers I started very enthusiastically last May. Of course, none of the promised facilities, standards, etc. were there. Fair enough, the definitions are a matter of interpretation. However, certain expectations had been created. These expectations, or more accurate, the lack of meeting them, among other issues, were prompting an American teacher (one of the three new teachers, and a proper Harvard University teacher for that matter) to ask questions. How silly! What was he thinking? Asking questions? Rather impertinent, not? About three months down the road, we were called in for a meeting in which the Thai head of the English Programme, "haphazardly" mentioned that the school had sent out a questionnaire to the pupils' parents and that, overall, parents were happy. However, some (how many, and what questions had been asked?) parents had complained about the American teacher's standard of teaching. As you can guess, a few people in that very same meeting were somewhat surprised hearing this in that particular setting. This should have been discussed in private with the teacher concerned, before blurting this out in the open. I was the only person to say something about this chosen course of communication and dear-oh-dear, was the head of the English Programme happy with my questions and suggestions.... No, she was not! Not long after the meeting, our Harvard friend was fired. No explanations were given. No questions answered. No communication. End of story.

Not for the second new teacher. He was as disappointed as the American and I were and chose to leave. He gave them the required (as per contract) three months notice, but was coaxed into leaving after two months. Why? Because the third month was mostly holidays, which, financially, worked out a lot better for the school. Fair enough, both parties agreed, but it does say something about the school's attitude. By then, we were not even halfway the school year and two of the three new, and, in my opinion, quite capable teachers had already left. Two down, one to go! At that particular moment I thought about the whole situation and came to the conclusion I had basically two choices: 1.) shut up and toe the line and 2.) keep trying to make things better for the pupils. I opted for the latter, knowing the risk I would take. And then, one sunny Friday November afternoon, during my last class before the weekend, I was summoned to the library where I was awaited by a delegation of Thais. I was handed a letter and told that I could collect my pay for the 10 days' work in November and leave. Again, no explanations (apart from the letter containing absurd allegations), no answers, no communication.

Three new teachers at the start of the year. All three teachers gone. Three well-qualified teachers. The sad thing is that most (if not all!) of the old clique teachers at PP lack proper qualifications (I know this for a fact, by the way, not just hearsay), qualifications required by the Thai government. With that same government becoming stricter and stricter (for a good reason!), these teachers know they will have a very hard time finding work elsewhere. Result: they keep quiet, toe the line and bend over backwards just to please their Thai superiors. When talking in private, some of the western teachers don't agree with many things going on and even say extremely unpleasant things about their clique-colleagues, but as soon as they're back at work and issues arise, they all go deaf and dumb. Survival. They stick "together" for they all fear the same fate.

At the end of the day, I'm not interested in rumours, fabricated stories and other gossip-like, meaningless drivel. All I'm interested in is the quality of education (and the question of how to improve it). So, if you don't mind watching your step, your words, and especially your back, by all means, give Phitsanulok Phittayakom a go. Who knows, perhaps it just is your cuppa!

Warm regards,

Rob


P.S.1 It seems the people at PP are desperately trying to shoot themselves in the foot by posting these ludicrous school ratings. Although I don't consider myself a spiteful person, I'm more than happy to help them aim. Hell, what, I'd help them pull the trigger!

P.S.2 My background and credentials? Fair enough! I have worked in IT for about 16 years, doing, amongst other things, a fair amount of consultancy and corporate training. I've worked as a voluntary teacher at two schools in different countries and I have worked as a language teacher and assistant director of studies for 3 years at a very reputable language school in Bangkok, prior to accepting the teaching position at PP. I hold a bachelor's degree in Computer Science. About 4 years ago, I successfully completed my CELTA course and have been teaching in Thailand ever since.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 12:25:46 am by robenroute »

Offline Andy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2006, 04:26:04 am »
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Thanks for the post, man!

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2006, 08:29:21 am »
Quote
one sunny Friday November afternoon, during my last class before the weekend, I was summoned to the library where I was awaited by a delegation of Thais. I was handed a letter and told that I could collect my pay for the 10 days' work in November and leave. Again, no explanations (apart from the letter containing absurd allegations), no answers, no communication.

Quite illegal I'm sure - Hall of Shame here we come :D

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2006, 09:55:14 am »
Great post roben, sounds like the same old toe the line and don't ask any questions mentality, I reckon your best off out of it!

Potential PP employees........................you have been warned!

Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2006, 12:48:41 pm »
sounds like the same old toe the line and don't ask any questions mentality

Just for clarity's sake, there's nothing wrong with toeing the line, in principle, as long as that line is a fair, sensible, reasonable, realistic, consistent and, perhaps most importantly, a for all parties clearly visible representation of rules and regulations. The presence of such a line assumes responsibilities, for all people, on both sides of the line. Again, I don't mind toeing lines, it just becomes impossible if people constantly redraw those lines without telling you.

I don't know who wrote or said it, but this more or less sums it up rather nicely for the majority of the western teachers referred to in my previous posting:

"Too many people confine their exercise to jumping to conclusions, running up bills, stretching the truth, bending over backward, lying down on the job, sidestepping responsibility and pushing their luck."


The warmest of regards,

Rob
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 12:51:30 pm by robenroute »

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2006, 02:00:58 pm »
You're right Roben, but unfortunately conforming to the standard at a Thai school does often mean ignoring the principles that we pride ourselves on.

Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2006, 04:15:28 pm »
Apologies to all, and especially to the American teacher mentioned in my initial posting; my mentioning of Harvard is not correct, it should read Stanford.

Apologetic regards,

Rob

Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2006, 07:34:16 pm »
Oh dear, I must have touched a rather sore spot; I just had a look at the comments left on the ratings page for PP and boy-oh-boy is it hard to handle the truth. Was I born in the Netherlands? Yes, I certainly was! Do I hold a Dutch passport? Yes, I certainly do! Can I speak English? Well, perhaps I would be the wrong person to ask. Why not ask the native speaker working at PP who hired me? Sounds fair enough, doesn't it? During the third or fourth conversation we had (prior to hiring me, and after having read my CV) that very same person said to me, in a surprised kind of way, and now I quote, "Oh, I thought you were English. I just read your CV and saw you're Dutch. Surprising, as you have such a beautiful British accent." So, I assume that's out of the way then.

Mr/Mrs Ghost, you're absolutely correct in saying people are allowed to read both positive and negative views. Since all the comments left before were so positive I felt compelled to balance the school's rating. As you make a few personal comments toward me, it would have been decent to leave your name; it's kind of uncourageous the way you do it now. (speaking of credibility....)

The same goes for you, Mr/Mrs The Looker; show a bit of spine and leave your name. I don't know where you got these strange ideas from, you're making things up. Just answer one simple question: would I be, still, living in Thailand (after 5 years) if I truly thought the way you say? You see, unlike quite a few other people, I do have a choice.

With the best intentions,

Rob
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 07:36:17 pm by robenroute »

Offline domeng

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2006, 07:45:31 pm »
Someone has decided to do this to the ratings on Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand just to overshadow a few users who have decided that the school isn't all that it seems.


I did that. I played by the rule: one vote per IP address. I love statistics...  :righton:


Yeah, but the ease of comin' in on a google search and rating a school is a big plus but I may have to resort to it. It just cheapens the quality of data because 1 school has decided to abuse it.


That's actually the message. I hope you could come up with a more clever rating system.
Also, I wish you know more things about the school, not just the name.


You may think that I wanna knock the schools, no I don't. I want teachers to be able to find good schools and avoid the bad schools. I ain't got any other agenda than that.


I hope you could do it in a more logical and scientific way. Do some research. Go for first-hand data. Devise a better way of evaluating a school to avoid jumping into conclusion.

If you want to bring truth and justice in the TEFL world, do it in a rational way. Last time I check, there's still a thing called due process in a democratic system.


PP is a rather large secondary school with roughly 3000 pupils. About four years ago, they started an English Programme and pupils had to pass an English language aptitude test in order to enter the programme. However, this has led to problematic situations where pupils are, sadly, unable to fully participate in classes due to a complete lack of basic English skills.


Based on survey and statistics, Thai students were actually good in grammar. However, they have difficulty in applying this knowledge in a conversation. Correct me if i'm wrong but i guess that's the main reason why Thailand is hiring TEFL teachers.

Yes, we can't deny that there are students who seem to be lacking in basic English skills. But compared to the other 2 schools I worked with, PP has more students who can use conversational English.


...when I was interviewed, they promised all kinds of things: "a really good level of English", "all the facilities you wish", etc. It all sounded very promising and together with two other teachers I started very enthusiastically last May. Of course, none of the promised facilities, standards, etc. were there. Fair enough, the definitions are a matter of interpretation.


Thai standard? Yeah, it seems very different from a 1st world country standard.


Three new teachers at the start of the year. All three teachers gone.

Three new teachers? ghost and I started our contract this year. Well, I guess, we weren't considered as "new teachers", or worse, "teachers" by robenroute.


Apologies to all, and especially to the American teacher mentioned in my initial posting; my mentioning of Harvard is not correct, it should read Stanford.


His resume says that he had been a PhD candidate at Stanford with possible research into Organic Superconductors. During this time he taught undergraduate Chemistry and Physics.

Very good, but let's not forget that he worked in Thailand with, of course, Thai setup. Language and facilities were really different.


What was he thinking? Asking questions? Rather impertinent, not? About three months down the road, we were called in for a meeting in which the Thai head of the English Programme, "haphazardly" mentioned that the school had sent out a questionnaire to the pupils' parents and that, overall, parents were happy. However, some (how many, and what questions had been asked?) parents had complained about the American teacher's standard of teaching. As you can guess, a few people in that very same meeting were somewhat surprised hearing this in that particular setting. This should have been discussed in private with the teacher concerned, before blurting this out in the open. I was the only person to say something about this chosen course of communication and dear-oh-dear, was the head of the English Programme happy with my questions and suggestions.... No, she was not! Not long after the meeting, our Harvard friend was fired. No explanations were given. No questions answered. No communication. End of story.


It doesn't seem right. The boss and the American had a series of conversations about the style of teaching, level of English, etc. before the discharge thing.

It was because the M4 students find it had quite hard to understand Physics. They need simpler English. I guess the boss wasn't pleased with what the American did.

And there's another important thing that robenroute failed to mention. Very important thing that lead to the dismissal of the American.


Three well-qualified teachers. The sad thing is that most (if not all!) of the old clique teachers at PP lack proper qualifications (I know this for a fact, by the way, not just hearsay), qualifications required by the Thai government. With that same government becoming stricter and stricter (for a good reason!), these teachers know they will have a very hard time finding work elsewhere.


We're all entitled to give our opinion. And there are three sides to every story.


Result: they keep quiet, toe the line and bend over backwards just to please their Thai superiors. When talking in private, some of the western teachers don't agree with many things going on and even say extremely unpleasant things about their clique-colleagues, but as soon as they're back at work and issues arise, they all go deaf and dumb. Survival. They stick "together" for they all fear the same fate.


Again, we have different interpretations, views, concerns, etc.


I've worked as a voluntary teacher at two schools in different countries and I have worked as a language teacher and assistant director of studies for 3 years at a very reputable language school in Bangkok, prior to accepting the teaching position at PP.


I don't know if this is connected but I never heard of an employee who demands to be the assistant of our boss. Strange... (My boss told me)

And let's not forget the true essence of the job "teacher", be it in a 1st world or 3rd world country setup. That is, if you really care.

Lastly, check whether you really want to live and work in a 3rd world country. Foreigners in Thailand are expected to respect the culture and tradition of Thai. This is not a good place for racists.



Well, I just want to tell my side based on how I see it.

Thanks.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2006, 08:23:15 pm »
This is a great series of posts....opposing opinions and expressing these opinions is what makes the website worth looking at.....

domeng
Could I ask a favor?  RR posted a pretty compelling outline of his opinions of what is going on at PP in his original post.  Could you please post a similar outline of your opinion of the situation at the school.  When you are rebutting quotes from RR its hard to get a clear idea of your overall opinion of the school.  So please let us know your opinion of whats happening at PP without worrying about what others have said.

Thanks,
RobRoy

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2006, 08:56:59 pm »

I did that. I played by the rule: one vote per IP address. I love statistics...  :righton:

---------------------

That's actually the message. I hope you could come up with a more clever rating system.
Also, I wish you know more things about the school, not just the name.
------------

I hope you could do it in a more logical and scientific way. Do some research. Go for first-hand data. Devise a better way of evaluating a school to avoid jumping into conclusion.

If you want to bring truth and justice in the TEFL world, do it in a rational way. Last time I check, there's still a thing called due process in a democratic system.

-------------------------


1st off, no one said this was a democracy. A democracy is where two lions and a lamb vote on what's for dinner. You bring up democracy, why are you trying to silence others by stuffing the ballot box?

Wtf is the site asking for ratings if we don't want first hand data, oops, your first hand data is voting 60 times over the course of a day. What a loser. What were you trying to hide about your school? Is it really that bad? When your school goes into the Hall of Shame, they can thank you. You can explain to Mrs Whatshername why her school is being blacklisted, why? because you acted like a little baby on the net. 


Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2006, 10:06:35 pm »
This is becoming awfully childish. Mr/Mrs domeng, again posting personal comments about people (including myself) anonymously is somewhat cowardly, especially since you're one of the people involved, as you've said yourself. Saying this is not a good place for racists is, as I would say, "bang on". I would even dare say there is no place for racists in the whole of this world. But what's your point?

The person you refer to as "the boss" has told me numerous times that, when mentioning opportunities for improving the quality of teaching (for which, among other things, I was hired, remember: "We're happy to offer you this position. We welcome someone with your experience."), all she could utter was "Oh ajarn, not my job". Wasn't it you that just wrote "That is, if you really care"? Your words, my dear domeng, your words. I have suggested having a dedicated position amongst the foreign teachers for coordinating things (because of your boss's refusal to deal with both issues and opportunities), but I never even hinted at appointing me for that position; it wouldn't even have crossed my mind, being a total newcomer to the school. Perhaps you shouldn't take everything your "boss" says for granted.

But, I'm digressing. You're missing the big point: the school (whatever that is) is fine, the students are really great, it's just the presence of a little group of people terrorizing the workplace. In hindsight, even this is totally understandable, as these teachers would have to make a humongous effort to find employment elsewhere, since they lack the proper qualifications. Working somewhere is a social happening and when I work somewhere I want it to be an open, fair and honest place. That's my point.

Regards, with the utmost openness,

Rob


N.B.1 Ghost interestingly wrote on the ratings page (unfortunately, that posting has been removed) "I don’t know this school and I never worked for them before". You write in your posting here that Ghost is working at PP. Interesting. Truly interesting....

N.B.2 Disclosing confidential information (regarding the American teacher's CV and the meetings he's had with the boss) as you have done in your posting is undiplomatic and ill-considered, if I may say so.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 10:36:43 pm by robenroute »

Offline bruceduncan

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2006, 10:29:36 pm »
I’m sure for those familiar with the school ‘domeng’ you have just revealed yourself. One has to question the motivation behind disclosing the details of an employees resume. Ever heard of employee employer confidentiality? Poor form! What’s more to say than Shame Shame Shame! 



 

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2006, 11:03:58 pm »
I, for one, haven't forgotten about the very illegal sounding dismissal of our OP.  It seems that other parties aren't denying this happened - have they heard of labour law at this school?

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2006, 11:11:54 pm »
Quote
I hope you could do it in a more logical and scientific way. Do some research. Go for first-hand data. Devise a better way of evaluating a school to avoid jumping into conclusion.

Any suggestions?  Hey hang on, why don't you devise a better way of doing it for your website - we expose cowboys, that's all.  We don't make any fancy promises!

If your school had been wronged you would come here with a rational argument, wouldn't you?  Surely you wouldn't just come here to complain about the site!

Perhaps you could state your position, tell us why you rated your school so highly and tell us why it shouldn't be the next entry in the Hall Of Shame - perhaps that way you may earn some credibility :)

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2006, 09:48:25 am »
The same goes for you, Mr/Mrs The Looker; show a bit of spine and leave your name. I don't know where you got these strange ideas from, you're making things up. Just answer one simple question: would I be, still, living in Thailand (after 5 years) if I truly thought the way you say? You see, unlike quite a few other people, I do have a choice.


Mr Holland i havent made anything up. Or maybe u just forgot it in your smoked out haze. Thats the unfortunate thing about this site that negativity rules and honest praise is ruled out.  My last post was deleted and so might this one. As my spine goes Mr Holland its fine although people like u are the spineless ones. You seem to only like countries where the people are subservient to you as you try to be a bully. South Africa is ruled out as white rule has finished. Maybe try going back to Holland as your country is now overwhelmed with foreigners. You can bully them from your own front door if you have one. You truly do think the way i say. I have never heard you make a positive statement about your job , the thai people or the country. As you have a choice as you say i suggest you move elsewhere where the people dont mind your bullying tactics or second to that suckle on Mr Australia the only person who listens to you.

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2006, 09:53:55 am »
Quote
Or maybe u just forgot it in your smoked out haze. Thats the unfortunate thing about this site that negativity rules and honest praise is ruled out.

The problem is there hasn't been any honest praise.  There was a nicely written criticism of the school followed by several people bitching about this website and the other poster.  Where exactly do you see the honest praise being ruled out?  To my mind there simply hasn't been any - unless of course you count the guy who gave the :D school top rating all day because he could :D

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2006, 10:02:25 am »
You seem to delete all the praise mate.
And the praise that has not been deleted on the main board you said could not be trusted.
But on the other hand the negative comments have only been applauded by you.
Hmmmmm again i say this site only thrives on negativity. Im not even a teacher but your site annoys me.
No wonder your not set up here in Thailand.

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2006, 10:54:36 am »
HMmmnnnn, Whilst I have not taken part in this thread I have been watching it! I can't for the life of me remember must in the way of praise being doled out, but to be on the safe side I checked the recycle bin, just in case, Mr the looker, your accusation of praising posts being deleted had some truth to it. Sadly I find none there so I must make some assumptions about the honesty of certain posters here and they are not very nice assumptions. Seems to me that you are in a lonely spot right now, but maybe you can get some dopplegangers, oops sorry friends to sign up and heap praise as well.

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2006, 12:41:46 pm »
Ok fair enough.
But please tell me Mods Rocker where is my post that i made to the main board yesterday.
It has been commented on in the forum so it was there for a while but has now gone. Same as the post made by Ghost. I read his post last night but it doesnt appear today.
As for positive comments read the main board all of the comments are from previous teachers at the school bar one.
And once again i need to say i am not a teacher but have connections with the school. So as for being lonely im not sure where you are coming from.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2006, 02:37:00 pm »
Only Andy and I can delete noise on the front door. You got a beef with that, take it up with us. Why was it deleted? You launched into a personal attack against a fellow teacher and named names. That ain't cool, man. But don't worry, the whole entire post is going away and then comes the Hall of Shame listing. Every post you make is making a better case for putting it there, maybe try making an honest post for once.


Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2006, 02:44:04 pm »
Who named names  ???
And my deleted post was only to tell others of the bad nature of the 3 best teachers in the world.
Mr USA Mr Australia and Mr Holland could be anyone.
Facts are facts believe them or not but i havent lied once in my posts.
So keep on breeding the negitivity. The truth always wins over in the end.

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2006, 02:53:29 pm »
And your wrong again calling him my fellow teacher as i have never taught in my life.
Assumptions assumptions.
You wanted an outside perspective and i gave you one and you deleted it.
You say you can say what you like on this site and that you believe in free speach.
What a load of cobblers -- you only only enjoy to hear negative comments -- the more negative the more you like it.
You try your best to discredit, delete or put down honest positive statements.
So really you are running a one sided site that offers no real defence for any school goos or bad.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2006, 02:55:21 pm »
Ok, several of the moderators and myself have asked the same question and I'll try one more time before I give up on this thread...

Domeng...The Looker.....

The original poster made the effort to post a very compelling story of whats happening at the school.  Apparently, you...or both of you choose not to agree with the OP.  Thats fine...that great!  We want dissenting opinions....BUT..rather than complaining about who said what and which post was misquoted, take the time to clearly explain the situation at PP without worrying about refuting quotes from others.  Make the effort to clearly express your opinion here, in writing about the situation at the school.  

Stop being whiners and start talking about the school, not about former, current or future teachers.  Bitching about who has what kind of degree doesn't tell me if the school handles the paperwork for a WP and visa efficiently, or if I have to stand duty 5 days a week or teach weekend classes for free.  Tell us about the conditions at the school!

But, this is just my opinion, for fu__ks sake next we will be hearing about the length of the hair cuts the teachers at PP have....you know...the important stuff.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2006, 03:15:58 pm »
Mods...

We have a poster here who admits he hasn't worked at the school and has never been a teacher here, but feels that he is qualified to comment about a school that he has never worked at, has no first hand experience in dealing with the day to day at the school and yet is allowed to post.

So, I have a couple of question Mr. Looker, because as a teacher, I enjoy learning and enjoy sharing the love with my students.

1st question - Since you admit to never have been a teacher, why do you feel qualified to express an opinion that other teachers will listen to in this forum?

2nd question - You admitted you don't work with the school...so why are you even posting? 

3rd question -  Lastly, since you don't work at the school, or ever have been a teacher...why should anyone listen to you?   You've managed not to put any kind of positive spin on the school, but only bitched about teachers....explain to me why your "input" is important in a meaningful way and we would all benefit from your opinions.

But, I may be wrong...what do I know..


Mr. Looker, when you can tell us something, anything about the school from direct, first hand experience, I'll be the first to listen.  Until that happens...be quiet, learn from us that actually spend a significant part of our lives working in a school and dealing with it as a part of our lives.


Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2006, 04:45:49 pm »
In reply Rob Roy i would say i have enough experience with the school to confidently post my previous comments.
I know several parents that send their children there and i also know 4 of the teachers presently working there.
And i know bad schools from good ones. Sure Phitsanulok has good schools and bad schools and i have to say PP is a good school running a good English Program.
I know the teachers recieve decent salaries and dont teach too many hours. I also know the school has some very good facilities and each teacher has their own computer connected to the internet. The students are generally speaking very good and well behaved.  And the Thai teachers try very hard to assist the foreigners in all forms of paperwork visas, work permits etc.
I have also met the ex teachers there with grudges. 2 of them dont understand Thai culture and how to deal with Thai people or either that it is a refusal to respect the culture and deal with Thais  in a respectfull manner. This unfortunately is the reason this school  is on this site.
Any more questions please ask.

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2006, 06:30:32 pm »
Do you know anything about the real reasons behind the very illegal sounding dismissal of the teacher that posted earlier?  Do you have anything to comment on that dismissal?  It didn't sound very fair to me.

It's easy to start whiging about negativity, how do you expect the guy to feel when he was very poorly treated?

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2006, 06:47:18 pm »
In any case, let's not lose sight of the real reason that this school is heading for the Hall of Shame.

So far we've got a reasonable mix of positive and negative comments between this thread and the front page.  I'm a reasonable bloke and as a teacher, if I was looking for a job, I would probably think the positive outweigh the negative - I believe I would almost certainly apply and go to have a look if invited for an interview.

I think the real problem, and I don't speak for Andy or anyone else (just my opinion), is that somebody at the school or connected with the school (domeng I believe) thought that he would be a smart arse and try to skew a perfectly respectable, legitimate rating system provided for sensible adults.  Quite rightly, this upset the admin of this site - who works hard to maintain its fairness (as we all do) and prompted him to mention these shady goings on.  That is why there is a thread about this school in the first place!!!

Thanks to domeng, the school made the forum.  Clearly, upon perusing this forum, a poster robenroute with less than happy experiences of this school felt compelled to write these experinces up - rather eloquently I might add.

The result is, people who like the school are upset and start whinging about robenroute and the atitude of the website - guys, ask yourself, why does the school feature on the website in the first place

And to domeng, do you feel you have achieved anything by attempting to abuse a rating system that has been working so well and left to users to behave responsibly?  You are the reason that this school will probably wind up in the Hall of Shame.....

Which is a shame, because it really might not be that bad - although we'd all like to hear an explanation of how and why robenroute was fired.  It pretty much sounds like it was illegal and unfair to me!

Remember also why this site is here - so that teachers can have their say about how they were treated at schools.  We report experiences, I'm pretty sure most of our readers are mature about it and understand we represent perceptions and opinions.  If you (particularly school owners and non-teachers) don't like what you read here - then don't read it, don't log in and don't try and skew the ratings  {-}
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 08:30:26 pm by hero »

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2006, 06:50:26 pm »
I know several parents that send their children there and i also know 4 of the teachers presently working there.
Yip you got us there, strangely I know an ex manager of mine when I worked in IT who regularly has dinner with the knobs on the hill and has had lunch once that I know of in the white place on Pennsylvania Ave, but I tend not to use that as an excuse to say I am an expert at American politics.


And i know bad schools from good ones.
Just exactly how do you know? Is it a gut feeling or did you once serve in some sort of committee that decided such things, if so I assume that you are a credentialed school assessor and will thus gladly bow to your SUPERIOR judgement!!


I have also met the ex teachers there with grudges. 2 of them dont understand Thai culture and how to deal with Thai people or either that it is a refusal to respect the culture and deal with Thais  in a respectfull manner. This unfortunately is the reason this school  is on this site.

So not only are you fully qualifies to assess schools but you also appear to be a psychoanalyst (or possibly hold an anthropology chair somewhere) as well and are fully qualified to make judgments on another’s understanding of a culture.

Offline bruceduncan

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2006, 06:56:56 pm »
Just a question for our concerned private citizen Mr. Looker.   

I am a little bewildered about the reasons behind your prolonged attack on the 3 ex teachers of PP. There seems to be an extra ordinary amount of back ground knowledge of the school and its workers from someone who claims to not be a teacher at the school. In fact you seem to be at pains to emphasis this in everyone of your threads. Why? What is your motivation behind your vitriolic comments toward these teachers unless you have a vested interest at the school? It does not make any sense to me, for an outsider to be remotely interested in what happens in the internal affairs of a school. Could you enlighten us please?

I would love to hear from the other two teachers Mr USA and Mr Australia for their side of the story. 

Another concern onlooker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2006, 07:08:38 pm »
I know people with the last name of Holland.

Anyways, this thread is locked. In case you haven't noticed, Looker, this is a site for teachers. You are not a teacher and there are things that go on behind the scenes in a school that parents of children, much less friends of parents of students never find out about because guess what? Teachers are professionals and do their best to keep these problems from involving students.

I am only locking this for a day or two for people to calm down. I want Andy to have a chance to look this over and I want everyone to have a chance to state their opinions, not have the thread be monopolized by a non-teacher who know everything.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 07:12:02 pm by Nemesis »

Offline dolce_far_niente

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2006, 11:44:52 pm »
Hi.  I’m Mr. America.  I think I’m late but I’d like to join the kerfuffle. 

Before I get to my story I’d like to say this school, whatever its merits, should be in the hall of shame for one simple, undeniable reason; they don’t honor contracts.  3 qualified teachers fired with neither 3 months notice nor pay.  One teacher had his vacation pay withheld.  There is no excuse for not honoring a contract.  I think it brings shame to the school and even to the country. 

Here are a couple of things to keep in mind: 
1.  Of 4 qualified native English speaking teachers hired this year none is still around, half way through the year.  (One actually didn’t even show up.)   In a way it’s funny.  What can the school say?  “None of the experienced teachers we hired were good?  It’s not our fault.”  
2.   I think you can tell from the posts here that there are a lot of petty jealousies in play that permeate daily life at this school.  And although we think we can ignore that because we only want to teach and lead our private lives it eventually takes its toll.  What does it say about a school that it goes on the offensive to attack ex-teachers?  It’s the Hill Street Blues Philosophy – “Let’s do it to them before they do it to us.” 

I feel the school’s English Program:
1  misrepresented the available facilities for teaching science and student English level in order to get me to teach there.
2  didn’t live up to the contract.
3  didn’t see education as their primary function.
4  didn’t give me the minimal support at critical times which caused both of us problems.
5   is a comedy but it may be a good school in the Thai scheme of things.  I don’t know.
6  had teachers who seem to enjoy back-stabbing and it wasn’t a good work environment.  (I’ve never worked in an atmosphere with such duplicitous behavior, usually by the 2 elder (farang) teachers.  They say one thing to your face and turn around and say something else behind your back.  I sure hope my mother doesn’t hear what they said about me!  Somebody should wash their mouths out with soap.)

I’m at a loss as to why emotions got so high on this.  I’m very surprised because I didn’t know I was important enough to anyone at the school that they could get so worked up.  (Somebody needs anger management or at least to loosen their underwear.)  And since there is so much really good fictional writing in this thread I’m betting it was the English teacher. 

The school didn’t honor my contract but I don’t hold a grudge.  It’s not worth it.  We definitely have different ideas about teaching and ethics.  But even when there’s disagreement I’d like to part on a professional, if not cordial, basis. I lost some time but it’s not the first time in my life I didn’t think my employer was great. Nobody can look at this mess and say the school supporters have been professional.  The more they write the worse it looks.  These aren’t discussions about good or bad teaching, or even good or bad schools.  These are simply argumentum ad hominem.  You can feel the venom coming out.  I think if you’re happy with your job and your life you don’t say things like this. 

I’d like to thank the people who mentioned that it’s not really appropriate behavior for the school (and here I mean the one individual representing the school in these threads who had my personal information) to publish data from a resume (my resume).  He knows better.  Although it’s not appropriate it is on record. I can direct him to the website of my universities so he can contact the registrars.  Can he direct me to his?   

Also, it’s not really appropriate behavior to publish rumors about meetings a teacher was in with the program principal or director.  And I said “rumors” for a really good reason.  There was no other farang, neither teacher, guest, nor interested looker, at ANY of the personal meetings I had with the principal or the last meeting with Mr. Big where we terminated our contract.  So this is all – as Perry Mason would say – conjecture and hearsay.  Nothing more.  Nothing!  In one letter I saw “I heard” so many times I thought he was having a cow.

Some people made comments about my teaching.  Even non-teachers writing letters here know.  It’s amazing.  How do they know?  Did they observe me teach?  No.  Do they subscribe to the Psychic Friends Hotline?  The only person to ever observe me was the principal.  She observed me several times teaching physics because there was no classroom and I had to teach in the library.  The only comment she EVER made about her observations was: “You speak very clearly and are easy to understand.” 

I believe that most teachers who have taught at several schools have met at least one dishonest school or we wouldn’t have this website.  For me that was the case here.

Besides ethics and no facilities to teach science, the difference I have with this school is that it’s run like a private language institute in that the goal is to increase enrollment by keeping students happy instead of performance based.  As one of the attackers said, the people at the school are happy.  (It doesn’t seem like it from the posts here.)  But for me the real goal of education is learning.  It’s very common for children to complain that a class is too hard and the popular teachers are often the ones who have easy classes.  The real test of a school is: “Do the children learn?”   It’s not: “Are they happy?” 

Hopefully it can be both.  But for me the second is the real goal.  I’m not a high priced nanny nor will I teach a mick just to be popular.  I like to play games in class and think school should be fun to encourage learning.  Fun is not an end in itself.  And this is where the school and I parted company.  It wasn’t my school nor was I the director but this is what I thought they wanted when I signed on.  As a teacher that’s the only type of school I want to teach at.  (ESL training centers are different and I understand that.)

Here’s the background of how I was hired and why I accepted the job.  As a second career I have taught science for several years to 7th though 10th graders in the US and taught ESL since 1996 in Asia.  I have excellent recommendations, knowledge of my subject (in the top 1% of science teachers by PRAXIS scores), and good experience applicable to teaching children science.  Teaching in Thailand wasn’t my wish; teaching science as a hands-on course was. 

Teaching a good science course takes a lot more time to prepare than ESL.  For me it’s more rewarding.  I get to do the things I did with my brother when we were kids.  Now only science teachers and terrorists can do those things.  I enjoy watching kids learn.  And teaching others, as I will point out below, is the best way to both retain and understand something.

One thing working in the favor of the science teacher is that science can be fascinating to children.  I’ve yet to see a kid who isn’t interested in doing experiments themselves.  And creating a green flash with a pickle gets everyone’s attention.  But to teach science efficiently one needs some facilities. 

I think everyone is familiar with the learning pyramid.   We retain 5% of a lecture, 10% of what we read, 20% of audio-visual, 30% of a demonstration (more if another kid does it or the teacher blows himself up), 50% of a discussion group, 75% of practice by doing (“experimenting”), and 90% of what we teach others or use immediately.  So, which form of instruction is the least efficient?  -------- Time’s up.  And how much would you retain if the lecture was in a language you haven’t mastered.  Can anyone show me research that indicates this isn’t true for Thai kids?

So the last way I want to teach science is by lecturing.

Here’s an excerpt from the email I sent to the farang who interviewed me for the job:

Me: Is there audio visual equipment in all or most rooms which would enable the presentation of PowerPoint, videos, or sound recordings?
Farang interviewer: WE HAVE ALL THE MOST UP TO DATE EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE.
ALL TEACHERS HAVE THEIR OWN COMPUTER.

 
Me: Since science teaching involves experimentation and demonstration what are these resources at the school like?
Farang Interviewer: AS OF YET WE DO NOT HAVE OUR OWN LAB BUT WE SHARE ONE OF THE MANY IN THE SCHOOL. WE SHOULD HAVE OUR OWN THIS YEAR. OUR COMPUTER ROOM HAS ENOUGH COMPUTERS FOR EACH STUDENT TO WORK ON.

Me: What is the level of English language proficiency of students taking science classes?
Farang Interviewer: VERY HIGH. RIGIS TESTING TO ENTER THE PROGRAMME.

And here’s an excerpt from my cover letter:  “The teaching philosophy and practice I use is that students learn best when they have some physical interaction such as doing experiments, doing demonstrations … I try to integrate technology such as PowerPoint … into teaching where appropriate.”

Throughout the interview process I was clear that I wanted to teach science effectively to children who could understand it in English.  I didn’t want to teach a hybrid science/esl course. 

So, expecting a reasonably functional school with “the most up to date” facilities, what awaited me?  A Monty Python routine.
  Absolutely NO multimedia capabilities in my classrooms: 
  Absolutely NO laboratory facilities in the classrooms (nor goggles or other safety       equipment.): Electronically and laboratorially these classrooms were as butt-naked as the day they were born.  And neither I nor the other science teacher who left ever saw the lab we could “share”.  I believe it doesn’t exist.
  NO textbooks: (I should say that there was a textbook for general science that didn’t cover the topics in the curriculum I was supposed to teach.) (Can you imagine a science course without a textbook? Without lab or demonstration facilities?  Without audio-visual equipment? I’d like to hear from somebody who has had a similar experience.)
  Very LOW English level with many of the students:  Maybe half of the students’ English ability was so low it seriously impaired their ability to understand the lecture, even though as an experienced EFL teacher I talk slowly, enunciate clearly, and write difficult words on the board.  And there was no textbook to refer to.  (What is Rigis testing?)
  NO clear curriculum:  I was supposed to be simultaneously teaching in English what Thai teachers were teaching.   I didn’t know what they were teaching.  So many obstacles were put in our way to meeting the corresponding Thai teachers that I only met the chemistry and physics teachers at the end.  I never met the Thai general science teacher.  At one point I was told that I was teaching the wrong curriculum.  Then they apologized because they hadn’t given me the correct one.  A non-science teacher again translated the Thai curriculum.  This led to parts which were either confused or scientifically wrong so I had to make some guesses and some changes.
  For over a month I didn’t have the personal computer connected to the internet which I was promised.  No books, no labs, no AV, no computer.  Mine wouldn’t work and neither the principal nor the farang interviewer could be bothered to pressure the repair man.  They kept saying it was software I was using causing the trouble.  Finally, it was XXX who stayed after work and figured out what was wrong with it and told the repairman how to fix it.    XXX’s a very knowledgeable guy.  They should have bent over backwards to keep him.

Also, as far as his English; it’s excellent.  Any attempt to demean his ability is simply a red herring.  People with bogus qualifications are worrying about whether or not he took a TOFEL (sic.) exam.  (What’s a TOFEL?  What’s your native language?)  Give me a break.

So, how was I supposed to teach science?  Lecture.  I asked repeatedly for books, for equipment, and for lab facilities.  I tried not to complain at first but as time went by….  I asked the farang interviewer why there was no money for facilities to teach science.  He rolled his eyes, smiled that “I know” smile and said, with a laugh like this happens all the time, it goes to the director and others.  Mordida  The Bite.  One time I asked the principal why there wasn’t any money for books.  Her answer was that the money was spent on the computers in the new computer room.  (Let’s see: 25 new computers at 20K = 500K ThB v. 6 books at 1000 K = 6K ThB.) And I asked why there weren’t any facilities to at least do demos in chemistry and physics.  So they made a decision on resources which to me seems to be a bad one.  It’s their school and their decision.  I didn’t want to stay there and teach under those conditions. Their attitude was, “Well, you’re here now and this is how you’ll teach.”

People ask why I didn’t just leave when I saw that.  Well, I had flown to Thailand from China where I left a higher paying job, bought a motorcycle to get to school, shipped a bunch of things, etc.  In other words the ante was so high that I thought I might as well stick around and gamble.  Throw good money (time) after bad.

But the sine qua non of education is what the kids learn.   Did they learn?  I am quite proud of my teaching at the school.  Two situations I dealt with illustrate the level of cooperation I got from the principal, our conflicts, and our different approaches.

Some students (and I take the principal’s word for it) in one class complained that the class was too hard.  To me the only complaint should be: “We didn’t learn.”  My tests weren’t easy.  Yet those students did exceedingly well.  I saw the tests from a previous year given by a senior teacher; T/F, multiple choice tests.  The other teachers joked that kids finished these 2 hour tests in 15 minutes.  That should be an embarrassment to that teacher.  He wasn’t assessing what they had learned; he was fulfilling a requirement to give a test and covering up the fact that they hadn't learned much.  He couldn’t understand my tests, but the kids did.  All the students in that class scored very high.  Only one child did poorly and almost all the others got A’s and B’s.  Those kids were like sponges and I was supposed to slow down?  No way.  I was very happy.  But the principal complained that I was too hard, teaching like at an international school.  She mishandled that completely.  If parents or students complained to her she should have said: “Hard?  Yes, but look what they’ve learned.” 

I told her if she wanted to make it easier she could give them proper books and AV equipment.  But that went nowhere.  I was supposed to make it easier by going slower and I didn’t want to do that.

Another class only had 6 students.  Right away it was obvious that 4 didn’t belong there.  They weren’t doing anything in class and it seemed like they didn’t understand what I was saying.  They would never respond with more than 1 softly spoken sentence in a row.  The principal often asked if they were happy.  It wasn’t “Are they doing well?” it was, “Are they happy?”  I asked her how they passed the test to get there, because I knew they hadn’t.  She said she knew about them and they didn’t belong there but they had paid extra money and/or had been in the school since the beginning.  Since the program was expanding the school needed every body it could get.

One thing I found that was exceedingly frustrating is it’s hard to motivate a student to do better if they don’t really understand the motivating speech you’re giving.  And here I needed the help of the principal. 

I told the principal that I wanted to meet with the parents to discuss their children’s’ problems and what could be done.  That’s what we do at a real school.  She demurred and said she would talk to the kids.  That didn’t do any good and I made other attempts to get her to arrange a meeting with the parents.  Can anyone guess why the principal wouldn’t want to tell the parents, who paid for their kids to bypass the admission tests, that their kids weren’t doing well in that program? 

OK.  What else could be done?  She first suggested I ignore them.  I said I couldn’t do that because they were distracting the remaining students.  Then she suggested I separate them and teach to the 2 students who were trying to learn.  Nobody will ever believe me if I say the principal told me to ignore 2/3 of the students in a class.  In the US we have the “No Child Left Behind” law.  Here they had the “Leave Most of Them Behind” policy.

I reread one of the posts about how I had a series of meetings with the principal about teaching style and strategies and that she wasn’t happy with the level of English or style that I was teaching in.  Huh?  How would anyone know?  Where does this information come from?  There were never ANY farang teachers (or non-teachers) involved in any meetings I held with the principal.  The above paragraph reflects the only discussions we had about these problems.  It’s hard for me to see how any of that constitutes discussion of teaching strategies or techniques.  Actually, I’m unaware of any interest she had in teaching methods.  If she had an interest there would have been formal observations like real schools have.  And the only observations I had were very informal and the only comment, during a physics class, was: “You speak very clearly and are easy to understand.” 

I agree with XXX that when they aren’t of a mind to honor a contract because you complain too much after they lied to you (Is that the Thai way?), they come up with some interesting reasons to fire you.  But neither of us wanted me to be there.  I left.  It was a divorce made in Heaven.

One further note:  Someone asked about efficiency of paperwork.  I took the papers the school gave me to Penang to get a Non-Im B and only got a tourist visa.  Then I took papers to Immigration Bkk and didn’t get anything.  The 3rd time to Bkk it was right.

Reactively,

XXXXX


Mod edit: just X'd out the names.









« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 06:43:22 am by Andy »

Offline Andy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2006, 06:50:37 am »
Thanks for this worthingly awesomely great informative and detailed post.

Offline ajarnnormal

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2006, 08:34:40 am »
Yep Andy Awesome. I for one am pleased that Mr America came forward. He about seals the schools fate.

Offline Mr Chips

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2006, 04:07:30 pm »
I don't know this school or anything about it but, correct me if I'm wrong, if you have completed your probation isn't there a procedure for dismissal unless it's for something very serious. Verbal warning, written warning dismissal, and if it isn't followed isn't the employee entitled to one months pay?

90 days notice? How can you have 90 days notice on a one year contract? Isn't the law 30 days?

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2006, 04:34:00 pm »
Generally Mr. C I’ve observed from this site that the procedure for dismal is at the whim of the Director/owner, I should think few schools follow, or even know, the employment laws. Hence why so many illegal workers have been teaching, if the school wants shut of them they just tell them "bye bye" and don't have to worry about any come back, few people working illegally would go to the courts to sue their former employer. It may also explain why there is so much brown nosing going on at schools, peeps are working there illegally and wanna keep in with the top brass. I guess this will all change in the coming weeks. 

I'm sure you can have 3 months on a 1 year contract, people I've worked with have had 90 days notice and never any complaints, in fact in some cases it could make you feel a tad more secure.

Offline bluefalang

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2006, 06:14:48 pm »
great post, mr america!

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2006, 06:47:54 pm »
I'm not an expert, but I seem to remember an expert telling me that legally only 30 days notice is required - from both parties I think, or something like that.  Not sure if it kicks in in the first year or what.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that they aren't just supposed to give you your marching orders at the drop of a hat without appropriate compensation.  Apparently, the law tends to side on the employee's side, even for farangs.  Unfortunately, most farang teachers seem reluctant to try this out - a situation I fully understand, I guess most just want to move on.

Clearly this would only apply to people working legally - I think Mr America was legal.

Offline robenroute

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2006, 10:55:03 am »
Clearly this would only apply to people working legally - I think Mr America was legal.

Yes, indeed, he was legal. And so was I, just as a few others working there.

It may also explain why there is so much brown nosing going on at schools, peeps are working there illegally and wanna keep in with the top brass. I guess this will all change in the coming weeks.

That's the nail right on the head! The clique working there is working illegally (that's what I was refering to when I wrote about lacking qualifications), and they know it. I also believe the school knows it. They've got a lot to lose and that's the very reason they squirm and wiggle in every possible way to please their superiors. I feel, they will do anything to protect the status quo, including getting rid of other teachers considered a threat.

I realize that qualifications aren't always a guarantee for the skills and abilities of teachers (I remember an "unqualified" teacher working at the language school in Bangkok when I was the assistant director of studies there, I observed her twice: she was a great teacher, very capable and very skilful). It's just a crying shame that the pupils at PP can't enjoy the pleasures of being taught by motivated professionals. I won't repeat what quite a few M1 & M2 pupils said when they told me (unsolicitedly!) their opinions of the teaching/learning "pleasures" they enjoyed during classes taught by "the clique", but I can tell you it was rather embarrassing....

Sweat dreams in Gagaland!

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2006, 01:40:00 pm »
Hero, I think one reason why teachers very often don't take legal action is because of the costs.

Legal fees are very high, often more than the sum of money that maybe being fought over and, although I can't confirm this, I've heard that whether you win or lose your case you have to pay the court costs (unlike in England where the person / company on the losing side pays the costs) so often it turns out that clearing your name / getting what's owed to you, will cost more than any damages you maybe awarded.

 


Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2006, 02:02:18 pm »
I'm sure that's it.  Like I said, I don't think it's something I'd want to be involved in here to be honest.

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2006, 06:56:17 pm »
Ahh nice to see this forum open again.
Mr America has had his piece. Very nicely written to. Just a pity it has so many discrepencies.
He was sacked cause he wasnt up to scratch. Simple as that. He visited the school for his interview and saw the facilities that he complained so much about. He saw the text books available. He saw the past coursework. Facts being facts he is too old and the students never understood him practically or spoken. He was given the cirriculum and it was discussed with him on many occasions. Sorry people but its simple as that. He was also given 2 months wage when his marching orders were given. And against advice he went to Panang for his visa only cause he has a yacht near there. As most teachers in Thailand know that is out of bounds for non -- imB visas.
As for Mr Holland, his teaching coursework included interviewing students about other teachers and telling them that he was the best teacher there and not to believe other teachers as they we not qualified. He tried to poison childrens minds for his own benefit. Also he bullied good students in the classroom by swearing at them and using foul language if they asked him questions in class. He also downgraded students results in tests if they challenged him in class. Now tell me TEFL teachers is that standard practice. If it is you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Worried Parent

Now as for an illegal sacking, he was warned before he was sacked.

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2006, 07:07:59 pm »
Quote
And against advice he went to Panang for his visa only cause he has a yacht near there. As most teachers in Thailand know that is out of bounds for non -- imB visas.

Actually,most of my friends consider it the best spot :)

Quote
Now as for an illegal sacking, he was warned before he was sacked.

And that satisfies Thai labour law I suppose :D

I thought you weren't involved in the school - who exactly are you?  Your poisonous posts against teachers will win you no friends here!

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2006, 08:51:49 pm »
Also he bullied good students in the classroom by swearing at them and using foul language if they asked him questions in class. He also downgraded students results in tests if they challenged him in class. Now tell me TEFL teachers is that standard practice. If it is you should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Do you only consider the above practice to be bad if performed by farang teachers? Because it has been standard methodology amongst the vast majority of Thai teachers for time immemorial!!  STUDENT SHOULD BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD! I had to take a 12 year old MEP student of mine to hospital once because she had the temerity to ask a Thai male teacher a question he could not answer, and in an effort to save face he took a thin bamboo cane to her upper thighs and buttocks, what happened to the teacher? Sweet fudge all!!! Yet you say if a farang teacher swears at a child he is sacked. Yes indeed Mr looker that seems eminently fair, like fudge it does!
I am not condoning his alleged use of bad language, just asking for a level playing field. Thai teachers still use the stick with impunity even though such use has been ILLEGAL:for over 5 years now. One wonders exactly where your priorities lie here?

Now as for an illegal sacking, he was warned before he was sacked.
If he was just given a verbal warning then yes, yet again we have a totally illegal Thai sacking procedure!

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2006, 08:55:49 pm »
And against advice he went to Panang for his visa only cause he has a yacht near there. As most teachers in Thailand know that is out of bounds for non -- imB visas.


You are mistaken, buddy. Most teachers go to Penang for their non-immi b's. If your papers are in order then you usually have no problems. I suppose you would suggest he go to Laos or Cambodia? Now try to tell us that those are better options than Penang for visas.  :readit:

Offline dolce_far_niente

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2006, 10:34:19 pm »
Hopefully enough teachers come to this site that few get taken by unethical schools and unethical schools reform so that they can attract quality teachers. 

However, what is the recourse if a teacher gets into a situation where the contract is arbitrarily broken?  Is there any way these can be enforced.  We were all told that after a 1 month probation period either party had to give 3 months notice of termination.  Of course, we didn’t have English copies of the contract so we didn’t really know what we had signed.  (My lawyer sister is surely rolling over in the grave she hasn’t been buried in yet when she hears that.)  I’d like to hear from someone with real knowledge or experience whether these contracts have any value and whether there are labor laws that protect us (teachers in general).

I see two possible alternatives and I’d like to know if anyone has had any success with either.  If not we might as well not sign them and just have a day to day contract.
1:  Sue.  I tried to sue someone once for about 12,000 Thb.  I went to the Tourist Police and contacted TAT in the US.  They didn’t really do much except to say I had to get a lawyer.  (The Thais apparently don’t have a small claims court where you can argue – inThai! – your own case.  You must have a lawyer.)  Even if I paid the 12,000 I wanted to win up front as the legal fees I never found a lawyer who would take the case. So I went to the Lawyer’s Guild on Rachadamn Road in Banglamphu.  They said I had an excellent case and would do it for almost free except since I was a tourist they wouldn’t.  (I have since stopped going to Thailand as a tourist.)  Maybe if someone is working here the Lawyer’s Guild will handle his case.
2:  Get the Ministry of Education or Labor involved.

I certainly thought since this was a government school they would honor their contracts.

You’re right, Hero, I wouldn’t want to be involved in it here either.  Such a waste of time and emotional health.  So “here” can be changed.

I know that China had enough complaints about schools that they set up some sort of mediation board that sometimes has effect.  It seems like they don’t have a higher percentage of bad schools than does Thailand.

In Japan not honoring a contract is too shameful.  Nobody does that.

I sincerely want to thank people for the feedback on my previous post. 

Regarding Looker’s comments:  I realize that since you aren’t directly involved you are perhaps confused by what is going on.  I’m sure the school isn’t releasing intimate information about teachers (such as their pay, visa trips, etc.) to parents so you should really question your sources.  (Perhaps a more accurate ID for you would be the Listener.  Or maybe the Listener_and_Regurgitater)  I ask you to reread slowly, and carefully what I wrote so you can have a better understanding of the situation.  I was there.  I realize you’re just a parent looking in and perhaps your child isn’t doing well so you have concerns.  (I don’t think I had him because a half farang child would be noticeable.)  Obviously this isn’t the place to comment on your child’s problems.  I’m sure a conference with the principal and his teachers is the best course of action.  That’s what I try to get when my students are having difficulties.  Also, if you can spend time with him while he does his homework and ask him about it that might help.

It seems like you’re big concern is that perhaps I’m too old to speak to children.  (Who told you I was old?)  You can rest assured that the principal when she interviewed me and when she heard me in class felt that I “speak very clearly and (am) easy to understand.”  I might point out I grew up in the Midwestern United States and the Midwestern accent (I read this in Robert MacNeil’s book “Do You Speak American?”) became the standard for use in American movies, radio, and TV.  So what I speak took over from the British oriented speech (perhaps what you speak) from the theater and “became in effect the voice of Americanism.” p. 154 (I think that’s pretty interesting.)

As far as being old; it’s better than the alternative.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2006, 11:05:58 pm »
Penang and Laos are both still good places for Non -B's...our school has had a teacher got to both and they had no problem in the last 2 months....for the 41 countries sorts, my wife is a Philipino and had no problem at Aranya Prahet....

Offline The Looker

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2006, 11:11:43 pm »
So Mods Rocker does that mean foreign teachers should behave like that ?????
Quite frankly as a moderator you should be removed if your beliefs are that way inclined.
And hero if u think Non imm B,s r easy to get please let me hear from someone.

As for you concern im only happy you have been removed and my childs new teacher can understand what you should have already beed taught.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2006, 11:46:33 pm »
I'm just a bit confused, but its late at night, I've had a few beers, but reading this thread has once again, raised my interest......

Mr. Looker,
As I've said, why are you even trying to explain what a teacher goes through when you have admitted no experience in teaching.  But, I will give you a chance, after all, all of us teachers that have been WORKING at a school in Thailand for more than a w a baeek probably find most, if not all, of your comments extremely clear, very well reasoned and well understood, if your meds are not working. 

I have a heart condition that requires me to take daily meds.  I understand that for problems like yours meds can help.   There are good doctors in Thailand...seek one for help.

Moderators...
While I understand the freedom of expression, this poster is only trying to cause problems rather than clarifiny the sit at the school....why is he still here...
Just my op...

Bob

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2006, 12:28:12 am »
So Mods Rocker does that mean foreign teachers should behave like that ?????
Quite frankly as a moderator you should be removed if your beliefs are that way inclined.

Mr Looker as going to ask if English was indeed your mother tongue1 but judging buy the last paragraph in your post (see below) it seems kind of pointless!



As for you concern im only happy you have been removed and my childs new teacher can understand what you should have already beed taught.

In my last posting you may, or there again you may not have noticed the sentence “I am not condoning his alleged use of bad language, just asking for a level playing field.” If the case was that you did not notice then indeed you would not have understood it, however if you had noticed it then my question above vis a vis your mother tongue does indeed become relevant. The term “I am not condoning” means I am indeed not of the belief that a teacher should abuse a student in any way, shape or form. What I am saying is that you should maybe be looking to stop the physical abuse perpetuated by many Thai teachers before you complain about a teacher using words that the child can read on the T-Shirt his mom was wearing when she brought him to school that morning. It’s a certainty that his mom does not know what “fudge off you fucking fucker” means yet she has it printed in very large print across her chest, and its probably a certainty that little Somchai does not know what the words mean either, after all he often has difficulty spelling his own name in English on his test papers which already have his 50% grade given before he makes his spelling mistakes.

Offline Nemesis

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2006, 07:20:42 am »
RobRoy, you are right. Everything that needs to be said has been said and then some. topic locked.

Offline bomha

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2006, 11:30:57 pm »
And against advice he went to Panang for his visa only cause he has a yacht near there. As most teachers in Thailand know that is out of bounds for non -- imB visas.
A Yacht, parent Looker?  Perhaps a teacher at your school in Pitsanaluk, you think, owns a 98 foot two decker yacht that costs ten million DOLLARS?  Or maybe he has a kayak there, or a leaky Thai rowboat.  I don't think Thaxin Shinawhat had a yacht.  Trust me; people with yachts are not teaching at your school in Thailand.

Or maybe you're the one who looked at yourself in the mirror as you walked onto the yacht, and you thought this topic was about you....

Offline hero

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Re: Phitsanulok Pittayakom School Thailand
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2006, 12:17:11 am »
For the record, I never met anyone who went to Penag with the correct paperwork and couldn't get a visa.

It seems that The Looker, was here to make a splash ....... :)

 

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