Author Topic: A look at ancient education  (Read 982 times)

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Offline DunceCap

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A look at ancient education
« on: October 30, 2006, 01:57:38 PM »
Hello all,

   A look at the ancient educational systems

     The ancient education systems come from the classic civilizations: Greek, Chinese and Indian. Young students in the ancient world left home and went to study where their teachers lived. The world’s first education institutions were boarding schools. They operated in much the same way; although, there were differences in religion. They started the students out in memorizing the classics. After the student demonstrated their comprehension of the classics, they then could move on to the next level of learning.
    The systems did vary in what they taught. This is due to what was important to their respective societies at the time. I have placed below some of the information about their ancient systems.

     The ancient Greek education consisted of two levels, Trivium and Quadrivium.
•   Trivium level the students studied Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric.
•   Quadrivium level the students studied Arithmetic, Music, Geometry, Astronomy, Anatomy, Biology, Botany, Theology and Philosophy.

They studied these subjects using the dialectic method. This method employs discussion as the main vehicle for obtaining comprehension. Thus, the dialectic method requires developed thought processes in the student. These thought processes were reflected in the society in which the students were raised. The students would sit and listen to lectures, and when they had a question they were free to ask it.

      In ancient China, the students first learned how to read Chinese, then, they advanced to reading the classics such as the works of Confucius. It wasn’t till they mastered the classics that they were taught how to write Chinese. The students in ancient China, also learned filial piety which was regarded as the utmost virtue. Filial piety means the respect for one’s parents and ancestor worship. In this regard, I would interject here that part of filial piety required the student to save face and cover mistakes especially that of his or her parents. It also included respect for teachers. In the ancient Chinese system young students were forbidden to ask questions until they were no longer considered junior students. After they showed mastery of the classics they advanced to study writing and the six arts, namely, (1) Propriety, (2) Music, (3) Archery, (4) Driving (a chariot), (5) Composition, and (6) Mathematics.

     Last, we look at the ancient Indian education system. Students were taught first the great verses of the Vedas. When they mastered recitation of the Vedas, they were allowed to study the other subjects of the day. These subjects consisted of philosophy, logic, religion, grammar, astronomy, medicine, ethics and arithmetic.

     Education was given in a sort of hostel located deep inside forests. These hostels were called Ashramas or Guru-kula. To ensure correctness of memory, the hymns were taught in more than one way. Soon the curriculum was expanded. The limbs of the Veda or the six Vedangas were taught - the performance of sacrifice, correct pronunciation, knowledge of prosody, etymology, grammer, and jyotisha or the science of calendar. Also in the post-Vedic era, teachers often instructed their students in the six schools of Philosophy.

     These systems went through similar turbulence just prior to the middle-ages. This turbulence, that each experienced, was due to different factors for each. It wasn’t until the middle-ages that education really developed as a real institution. Sure there were schools before then, but structured education and the birth of liberal arts came in the middle-ages. And it was at that time, as well, that the most important educational institutions were born-the universities.

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Maybe they should have them all take test? :D
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 02:08:35 PM by DunceCap »

Offline diaw

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 05:14:56 PM »
Excellent article DC...

I've downloaded some texts on ancient Vedic Mathematics. They seem to have developed some very cunning ways of calculating in very compact ways. Ramanujan's work on series expansions was exceptional. There seems to be  lot to learn from some of these ancient cultures.

diaw...


Pibthong

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 06:44:51 PM »
   Why didn't the Chinese ever conceive of, or, create/copy an alphabet? The Chinese language and its myriad dialects still use pictograms, aka ideograms instead of an alphabet containing vowels, consonants etc by which we create words. Words of course are symbols, which stand in stark contrast to communication by pictures or by sketches of mental moments, which the Chinese do to the present and forseeably shall continue to do.

    The Chinese still must memorize pictograms rather than create words. Speak a bit, if you would, about the grammar and logic of ideograms, especially in comparason and contrast to an alphabetic system. I'm pretty certain I'd be engaged by your response and discussion to my inquiry.

   Also, importantly, you discuss three of the four centers of ancient civilization, omitting Egypt. So I'm curious about why you exclusively discuss three of the four centers of ancient civilization. How in your otherwise excellent piece does Egypt and its culture of education get excised from its universally agreed standing as one of the four centers of ancient civilization?    

   I'd also be interested in your take on the quality of the concept and culture of education in each of the four respective centers.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 07:04:13 PM by Pibthong »

Uncle Che

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 06:51:01 PM »
Quote
They started the students out in memorizing the classics. After the student demonstrated their comprehension of the classics, they then could move on to the next level of learning.

Isn't this rote learning? Memorization? But I see that it leaves rote learning and shifts to true comprehension?

 

Offline bomha

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 08:20:15 PM »
The Greeks, of course, are famous for philosphy.  I noticed that the first thing the students learn is what we might call critical thinking.  Rhetoric, argumentation, logic.  I notice that in Thailand, this is absent.

Offline DunceCap

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 03:55:50 PM »
In response to your questions regarding the Chinese language, I can say that I know nothing of Chinese grammar. About the pictograms or ideograms, my understanding is that by looking at the pictures one can pick up clues as to the meaning. With so many characters it gives me a headache just to think about it.

One article that may interest you. It also contains links to many other linguistic avenues.
about the Chinese language

The language of China is a long story and I have only the desire to tell a little of it at this time.
 China was unified by Qin Shi Huang way back when(221-206 B.C.). They taught the classics (Confucian method, listen and then recite, but do not ask questions)

So it went in this order:
Zhou dynasty script  (pre Qin Shi Huang) but they still used it while they were implementing the change over to seal script.

Seal script (gets its name from its use on many seals) There are two styles greater and lesser seal script.

Clerical script  (this script is still used in lots of Chinese advertising as it is a beautiful script) Clerical script came into use during the Han dynasty.

Regular script  (this is the script used in China today) Regular script started to come into use in the 5th century but didn’t mature in form until the 7th century. Throughout all this time they still taught the classics (the Confucian method)

For centuries Regular script has been used down to the modern day. There were variants of the script in different regions of China, but for the most part something written in one part of China could be read in another part. There were two problems discovered in the late 19th century and early 20th century.
1.   Chinese was hard to learn and many of the characters were difficult to write.
2.   Most of the population was illiterate.

At the start of the twentieth century, books of simplified Chinese started to appear. A great debate ensued as to what to do about the language problem.

     In 1909, it was proposed that simplified Chinese either be used in education and accepted by the population as a whole, or the Chinese language should be thrown out all together. The Chinese who had been educated abroad joined in the debate as well. It soon became apparent to the government that something must be done. The government decided in 1912 to put together a meeting to decide the fate of the language. The first meeting was held in February 1913.
The first meeting was held in Beijing. It had 44 delegates. The composition of the meeting looked something like this: 2 representatives were allowed from each of the 26 provinces while Tibet, Mongolia, and overseas Chinese were allowed 1 representative each (overseas Chinese means places like Hong Kong).
The meetings went on for quite a few years. At this time in Chinese history they had thousands of students at universities across China. It is important to note here that elsewhere in the world the Great War had been fought. Before and during this Great War, Japan occupied part of China. After the war, at the treaty of Versailles, Chinese representatives had requested that Japan be made to give China back this occupied territory. Their request went unheard.
    Combined with the students who were proponents for language change, were those students who wanted China to do something about their unfair treatment during the treaty of Versailles (but among this China had many other ills at the time). They gathered at Tiananmen Square to protest. This was known as the “May Fourth Movement.” The government squashed the student uprising. But due to the harshness of the government’s treatment of the students in squashing the uprising which entailed death and putting students in jail, the parents of the students became involved and started strikes. These strikes spread throughout China. The government was forced to give in to their demands and release the students. Though it was really only a superficial show on the government’s part, it did force the hand of the language committee.

     It was decided that they would simplify the language. Committees were formed and they put forth proposals as to how to simplify the language. They voted on one proposal, and the presses started rolling. They made dictionaries and sent them out to the population. Then they recorded the sound of Chinese gramophone style (on vinyl) and sent it out to the population. If I remember correctly Mandarin was the chief source.

     But again there was a problem because there were still two language parties on the table--Classical and modern Chinese(also known as simplified Chinese). “Wenyan” and “Baihua” respectively.

     Then in the 1950’s the communist party also pushed a standardization of learning in China. They tried to burn all the books which contained language or ideas they disagreed with. The presses rolled again and the population received the newest version of simplified Chinese. Yet this didn’t solve the problem of the existence of classical Chinese and simplified Chinese. To this day the two still are still found in China. The universities have as part of their entrance exams questions about classical Chinese, although, practically no one in China today can speak classic Chinese.

Pibthong

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 06:03:36 PM »
DunceCap,
   Er, I mean:

     1) Why do you omit Egypt as an ancient center of civilization?

     2) Why have the Chinese continued to use ideograms rather than graduate as the rest of us did to a script?
Teachers of Chinese I know in Thailand actually continue to boast that the Chinese use the "oldest" system of idiograms in the world, as if that were a positive point. Quite to the contrary, the use of idiograms is intellectually and culturally simplistic, is it not? It indicates an absence of logic per se, does it not, or at the least, an unusually obtuse logic, does it not? Does the absence of the use of words, i.e., symbols in a language, suggest or indicate an intellectual or cultural deficiency?

   You are knowledgable on the subject and I respect that. I'm inquiring as to your perspective, your world view; your judgement in this matter of idiogranms vis-a-vis having a script (and a system of grammar based on logic and reasoning).

   (I would add that the war from 1914-1918 was the Great European War. Yes, under the new republic established in 1912 by Dr. Sun Yat Sen the Chinese tried many new things. The May 4th (1919) Movement spanned at least two decades. As with many peoples of the time, life in China was seriously "interupted" by the Great European War, to include life in the US when the US declared war on Germany on April 12, 1917.)

   As to the substance of my question, what's in the nature of the mind that for 5,000+ years has communicated and still communicates by drawings and sketches reather than by a script? What is the nature of such a mind? Having a script requres a system of logic, does it not? What is the statement the Chinese make of their culture and civilization given the absence of a script? What is the logic of the Chinese mind that causes this? In the West, for example, we continue to have a system of logic that is based on Aristotle (Aristotilian logic). What is the nature of Chinese logic? Mencius and Confucious were conservatives (more probably reactionaries) who had codified and cast the values and thinking of the past into concrete until the late 19th and early 20th centuries, or is it otherwise? 

   I'm not sure I can communicate my question to you. I'm asking about value judgements in respect to a human culture and civilization, that of China, using the nature of the language as the point of entry...      
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 06:13:53 PM by Pibthong »

Offline DunceCap

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 07:29:09 PM »
I think it has to do with China and the "closed system" mentality.

Given the mistreatment of the Chinese when the country was first opened to Europeans, and the ever present Japanese, the country developed this "closed" mind set. Most of the education down through the eons has been the rote learning method.
   Then comes the advent of communism on to the landcape, unfortunately for the Chinese this was also unpopular, so again the Chinese remained closed.
   But really this had two affects:
1. It preserved Chinese culture in rare old ways that we don't see in other places in the world.
2. It prevented acclimation of advances in philisophical thought. I don't mean that ancient Chinese philosophy is bad, but that it was not mixed or debated at the academic level. This is due to the fear of upsetting the "ancient ones" cuturally speaking.

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A look to the future...

   As the population in China continues its modernization and adaption to the global world, we see the internet having its impact. This will affect the Chinese language in a way that perhaps other influences have fallen by the wayside. The majority of Chinese who are on-line in chat rooms are using a form of Chinese written using the English alphabet. They form the sounds of their language using transliteration. It just so happens that the majority are translation Cantonese. It is my belief that eventually this will take on other forms of representation in Chinese society. I believe this due to the fact that China has such a large population. Of course this will take many years.

Pibthong

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 04:56:56 PM »
DC,
   Yes, but the closed mind mentality of the Chinese goes much deeper into history than from the point of the intrusions of the post-Industrial Revolution West, does it not? The Middle Kingdom was such long before the West arrived; the "barbarians" existed long before the West arrived; the Great Wall was not constructed to resist the mercantile West, wouldn't you agree?

   You may have read Chris Patten's book and also the book "To Change China," the latter now out of print after having enjoyed a long run. Both books--and of course there are many more--discuss the superior attitude of the Chinese toward every other group of humans and the great frictions caused by the insistence of the Emperors that the barbarians kow-tow to Chinese majesty and royalty. Patten's description of the farce of the kow-tow is great, as far as I'm concerned. Your thoughts?

   Still, on the question of the language, do you have--or have you been presented with--any thesis or hypothesis as to why the Chinese fail to the present to graduate from communicating by drawings and sketches to communicating by using a formal script?

Offline DunceCap

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2006, 01:01:31 AM »
Pibthong,

Yes, but the closed mind mentality of the Chinese goes much deeper into history than from the point of the intrusions of the post-Industrial Revolution West, does it not? 1. Some may say it had a lot to do with a reverence for the Confucian thought process. They would back this up by saying that all the great rulers of China were very well versed in the Confucian Classics. That those who had a mind to climb politically needed to verse themselves as well, and in the process became tenets of those same thoughts.

The Middle Kingdom was such long before the West arrived; the "barbarians" existed long before the West arrived; the Great Wall was not constructed to resist the mercantile West, wouldn't you agree? 2. I agree 100% with that. They had to becareful on both sides. My argument here was not pointing to the physical barrier but to the intellectual growth barrier that grew from blocking out all outside influences.

   You may have read Chris Patten's book and also the book "To Change China," the latter now out of print after having enjoyed a long run. Both books--and of course there are many more--discuss the superior attitude of the Chinese toward every other group of humans and the great frictions caused by the insistence of the Emperors that the barbarians kow-tow to Chinese majesty and royalty. Patten's description of the farce of the kow-tow is great, as far as I'm concerned. Your thoughts? 3. I am not familiar with these books but have put them on my list. They seem very interesting.

   Still, on the question of the language, do you have--or have you been presented with--any thesis or hypothesis as to why the Chinese fail to the present to graduate from communicating by drawings and sketches to communicating by using a formal script?

4. The Chinese have battled this question for at least a hundred years. I would say that a Romanized Chinese script was invented, well actually quite a few were, and that it was well thought out barring a few minor problems. The major forces behind the main script which is known by the initials G.R. (Gwoyeu Romatzyh) were the intellectual elite in China at the time. This was during the 1920’s and covers the time we spoke of previously the May Fourth Movement. I came across some great articles that covered this subject extensively.
     From these articles and my own thoughts I conclude that a language change will come, as been from my experience as a language teacher, when the student needs it to survive. Which means to say that if globalization really does threaten to keep China out unless it can embrace language change, then, change it will. As I mentioned before the advent of the internet has done more to facilitate a cross over to a Roman script than any attempts by a direct means with that purpose solely in mind. I will add further that it was estimated, at first, that G.R. would take over 25 years of direct education in the schools to make the change. Others disagreed and postulated that the change would take place over the range from 500 to 1,000 years. So as the kids of today pack the internet cafes of China and bang away at the keys with the mind that they are out of school and they are playing, they are actually doing the harder work of which, for the Chinese education policy, was intended for them in the first place.

After the passage from the old to the new in the time frame given, we will have adapted some other greater means of communication—telepathy perhaps.  :)

Below I have some links to my sources.

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reference 1

The history of Chinese script

some yada yada about Chinese

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Reference 2

1950 John DeFrancis  “Nationalism and language reform in China”

“Y. R. Chao, the experts evolved a new system which they designated in the orthography of the system itself as Gwoyeu Romatzyh, or G.R. for short, a name meaning National Language Romanization.” (excerpt from chap 4)

chap 4 from DeFrancis

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Reference 3

There is currently a petition to stop the United Nations from abolishing Chinese.

petition to save the Chinese language]

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Reference 4

Human discourse and its reflection upon philosophy

Hegel claimed that asian thought was untranslatable

Ernst Behler

Human discourse regarding philosophy
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Pibthong

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 06:41:50 PM »
DC,
   Thanks. Good stuff.

   My point No 2 is that the physical barriers reflect the intellectual and cultural barriers inherent to the Chinese since ancient times. (East Asia is full of walls, around houses, schools--vitually everything!)

   On the point of the Chinese not having a script by which to communicate, I'd say directly that it reflects the dimness and slowness of the Chinese mind. I had a prof in History of China who loved to remind us that while the people of the US think in decades, the Chinese think in centuries. A good illustration is how Chou En Lai, asked what he thought of the French Revolution, responded that "It's too soon to tell." Well, it's not too soon to know what happened to Chinese communism and the communalism of Mao and Chou.

   The Chinese were raped by the Europeans, primarily, for almost 200 years from circa A.D. 1800 before they decided to begin to think about joining the modern, i.e., post-Industrial Revolution, world. That's arrogant, dim and closed-minded. The Chinese actively rejected the (greedy and grubby) mercantilism of Europe, saying that China itself "has everything we need under the sun." The closed mind existed from the origins of Chinese culture.

   Thanks for the resources re the language. 

Offline Geekboy

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Re: A look at ancient education
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2007, 05:10:43 PM »
It was all they needed until they realized that money could get them more...

 

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