Topic: New Visa Laws

[Rick]

Hey everyone, I think it is time to put aside the BS about schools and confront the new law changes. I've been here 4 years, have many friends who have had recent problems, and see many more on the horizon.

Lets get some clear cut explanations on what is going on, how to minimize damage, and adapt to the foreseeable future in Thailand. Looks like it is going to get worse before it gets better. Hate to be a doomsayer, but if you have been to Immigration within the last few days, then you know what I mean!!!! The screws are being turned as I speak!

China-Taiwan-Korea-Vietnam are looking pretty good right now. Just joking, but maybe alternatives might be worth keeping in out back pockets!!!!

Too bad we all couldn't get together and boycot, leave them high and dry, but that is wishful thinking.

So, what do you think? Any updates? Truths?

Rick

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Here's the latest news from The Nation.

Credit to Ajarn Miguk for the link:


Big impact expected from tougher visa-free entry rules

BANGKOK: -- The days of foreign visitors doing endless "border runs" in order to live - and often work - in Thailand are over, the Immigration Police announced yesterday.

The Kingdom will tighten its immigration rules for tourists who exploit visa-free regulations, starting from the end of the month.

The move will affect tens of thousands of visitors from 41 countries who have been allowed to stay in Thailand for up to 30 days without a visa - often for many months or years.

The 41 visa-exempt countries include Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, France, Germany, Japan and the United States.

Tourists have been able to extend their stay by travelling to neighbouring countries - Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos and Burma - and returning with a further 30-day entry stamp.

But new rules have been issued because an increasing number of tourists have stayed for extended periods - without paying proper amounts of tax. This has also helped them avoid close scrutiny by authorities here and in their homeland.

"We are trying to make it more difficult for bad people to get in," Immigration Police chief Lt General Suwat Thamrongsrisakul said at a press conference yesterday.

"I don't think it's going to hurt good people because they can apply for a tourist visa [in their homeland]," he said.

The move is expected to have a big impact on the foreign community and some sectors such as teaching and diving, plus places where there are many bars run by foreigners, such as Pattaya and Chiang Mai.

From October 1, tourists from the 41 visa-exempt countries may still enter Thailand without visas and stay for up to 30 days, but they will only be able to extend their stay here two times - that is, for a maximum of 90 days.

And tourists who stay for 90 days must leave the Kingdom for at least 90 days before being permitted to re-enter Thailand.

Suwat denied the crackdown was related to the arrest in Bangkok last month of John Mark Karr, the American teacher who was thought to have been involved in the high-profile JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He said there were many reasons that extended back for a long period.

Suwat conceded the move may cause some problems, but said "maybe we have to do something to make it better [later]".

However, if foreigners wanted to work here they should get a work visa, he said.

A source added: "Under the current rules, people from these countries can stay in Thailand for as long as they want. Some even stay here for one year. Many work illegally in Thailand."

Instead of sightseeing, these tourists have taken advantage of the visa exemption by getting married to Thai women "for reasons other than love", and have conducted business here. Many of them have not paid tax.

The immigration move is a hot topic among foreign residents, and comes at a time when many are fearful about possible changes in regard to firms with local nominees.

Hundreds of comments were logged on local Web boards within hours of the Immigration Department press conference. Some said foreigners should abandon Thailand for neighbouring countries, while others predicted it might force school bosses to pay foreign teachers a proper wage or cause a boom in men wanting to marry Thai women.

Most believed the move could cost Thailand a small fortune.

Meanwhile, plans are under way to simplify the process for foreign teachers to work here as the current system requires 13 separate steps, which take many months to complete.

Heads of international schools have been meeting with the Immigration Department to try to simplify the process.

Thailand recently simplified the process for foreigners who want to become permanent residents. The amount of paperwork required has been slashed and the time involved reportedly cut from more than a year to about four months.

Last year Thailand tightened its immigration rules for South Asian tourists, who were allowed to apply for visas on arrival that permitted them to stay for 30 days. Many of them took advantage by travelling to neighbouring countries and returning to get a new visa on arrival at the airport.

Under the new rules, they are allowed to obtain a visa on arrival only twice from neighbouring countries. They are then required to return to their country of origin to obtain an entry visa to Thailand.

Jim Pollard

The Nation 2006-09-16




I'm giving serious consideration to leaving.

It isn't just the new visa restrictions;

it's that feeling that we aren't

welcome here anymore.



I can take a hint.   

[hero]

China-Taiwan-Korea-Vietnam are looking pretty good right now.

Am I right in thinking that it has long been difficult (perhaps impossible) to work in any of these countries without a visa.  Most people I know who worked in any of these countries had WPs and paid tax.  As Thailand is starting to make the same demands of its teachers now, does it suddenly becomes the worst place to work in the world?

I understand that the new legislation (or at least new interpretation of existing legislation) makes things more difficult for some in the short-term.  In the long run I believe their will be a new equilibrium not too far away from where we are at now.  Perhaps more teachers paying tax will lead us to be taken more seriously as important members of this society - or perhaps not!

As far as I'm concerned though, I don't see any need to start running for the lifeboats just yet - after all, for me and others with nice jobs and proper documentation, nothing has changed!

I genuinely have sympathy for people who had planned to spend the last 20 or 30 years of their life on 30-day tourist stamps working illegally, I genuinely do - but maybe it was time overdue to start thinking of a more permanent solution in any case.  I sympathise even more with teachers who work for institutions out there who don't provide WPs for whatever reason - my advice to these people is to find a better employer and out the cowboys!

[NukeThemSlowly]

I'm worried about some of my friends who get actual tourist visas.  If they have to go all the way back home now to get new ones, it may mean they leave here- even though most of them are not working and bring money into Thailand (early retirees).

[Mods-Rockers]

My take on it is that tourist visas (60 day +30 +15) are unaffected tight now.

[paul]

Apparantly they are only issuing single entry tourist visas in Penang from now on and you will have to return to your own country to get a multiple entry.

[ajarnnormal]

I am in agreement with Uncle Che. I just spent the weekend in Kanchanaburi and there seems to be a panic on with the teachers there. Although none of the schools have been raided yet they think it will happen. There are a lot of them doing the visa runs and have been doing for ages. I think now it is going to be cut and dry, you are legal or you are not. If your not then I am sure you will have to find another alternative with regards work. I'm sure that the penalty for working without WP will be high once the show really gets on the road. I understand that there will be many good teachers leaving Thailand. I do not see those that are legal and paying tax having anything to worry about. I honestly think that we will get more respect. Well let us hope so.
 

[Pibthong]

   Who knows what the following may mean? I couldn't say. Should we be alarmed or should we just shrug our shoulders?

   Today an Aussie I know who'd been assisting the past 4 months in Phuket in teaching diving on a tourist visa was denied a Non-Immi-B by the Thai Embassy in Phenom Penh; he also was denied another tourist visa. He'll consult with his colleagues but presently it looks like he's out of Thailand for good.

   A Brit teacher whose Non-Immi-B expired between jobs went to Penang, Malaysia with new documentation from his new school but was given a tourist visa by Thai Immigration there. He says Thai Immi/Penang told him one document was missing from his submission. He's presently in Phenom Penh Cambodia where his application for a new Non-Immi-B visa is pending at the Thai Embassy there.

   What? 

[hero]

Why not take the tourist visa or even 30-day stamp to immigration and get a non-imm B there?  I believe that's what they are expecting people to do.  They made it much tougher for teachers to get non-imm B visas in Penang last year.  With a tourist visa and the required paperwork a non-imm B visa can be obtained at immigration.

I don't think Pnomh Penh have ever been friendly when it comes to handing out visas - "not our job!" was what they bluntly told a friend of mine.  Hardly surprising that they would turn away someone who they may quite reasonably have thought was working illegally!

But you're right - there are probably no easy visa excursions on offer at the moment!

[ajarnnormal]

   
   

   A Brit teacher whose Non-Immi-B expired between jobs went to Penang, Malaysia with new documentation from his new school but was given a tourist visa by Thai Immigration there. He says Thai Immi/Penang told him one document was missing from his submission. He's presently in Phenom Penh Cambodia where his application for a new Non-Immi-B visa is pending at the Thai Embassy there.

   What? 

That is nothing new. If the school did not give him the correct paperwork they will knock you back. It is not their responsibility to sort out the problem at the other end. It is the school who should make sure everything is correct. I am sure that even if he goes to Phenom Penh without the correct paperwork they will knock him back there. All this by the way is assuming he did not have the correct paperwork or was it a blatant knock back for no reason

[hero]

While working at a school last year, this happened to several teachers (not me!) that got knocked back at both Vientiane and Penang due to not having the correct paperwork.  Once equipped with the correct docs, they were all OK in the end!

[ajarnnormal]

Yes you are right. With the teacher in question who was knocked back in Penang. He was between jobs. there must have been a gap because as you rightly said you can go to MoI and get one with the correct paperwork. Seems crazy to go halfway round Asia when all that was missing was one piece of paperwork.

[Pibthong]

   Yeah, I'd' recently heard that the Thai Embassy/Phenom Penh arbitrarily knocks back 1 in 4 Non-Immi-B applications. Anyone heard anything like or similar? I''d also heard recently that the Thai Embassy in Hanoi is generous with Non-Immi-B visas. 
   
   The Aussie I'd mentioned has to go as he was here under the kind of usual "ünusual" arrangements that Immi seems most to be talking of targeting.

   I'll find out from the Brit friend later this week (in Phenom Penh). The Brit couldn't go to Thai Immi in Bangkok because his WP had expired and his school wouldn't get him a new one. So he said he left his school, returned the expired WP to Min of Labor which cancelled out the existing Non-Immi-B visa which, in turn, meant overstay payment and then out of Thailand for the new Non-Immi-B for the new school. That's always been my understanding of the circumstance the Brit friend is in. I don't know as I still have my Non-Immi-B issued in 1998 by the Royal Thai Embassy in Korea which simply always has been extended each year for one year by Thai Immi.

   I think we might see from the two instances--the Aussie and the Brit--whether Thai Immi is able to sort the proverbial wheat from the chaff in all of this new visa madness. That is, the Aussie in Thailand under dubious credentials is sent out and the Brit under legit credentials (but nonetheless hassled) gets his Non-Immi-B okay (especially significant if the Thai Embassy/Phenom Penh issues it).

   Wouldn't you think? 

[Pibthong]

   To complete the story, the Brit did get his Non-Immi-B in Pnom Penh. He happily emailed me late this afternoon. Looks likeThai Immi might be sorting the wheat from the chaff...

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

^ Some good news for a change.


While we're on a roll and thinking positive ...


Is it possible that the coup will negate the pending immi crackdown?

As far as I know, nobody has mentioned this possiblity yet.


At the moment, we know that they've disolved the government and courts,

but I have no idea where the Bureau of Immigration fits into this equation.


Anyone care to venture an educated guess?  A stab in the dark?   

[Due Diligence]

Immigration is a part of the police force so they will still operate as normal.  They also seem to be the only authority willing to answer the phone with coup questions.

As for the new laws, It hopefully will stop illegal language schools /agencies and such from continuing business as they can not supply a teacher for a full year.  School will just have to be more prompt with paper work to stop visa application problems.
Its backpackers, fakers and runners that taint the brush for all of us. Good riddence to them.  If you really want to stay get legal if your school/company wont get you a visa/wp then walk there are many jobs from schools that will give you what is needed.

If you are passing through then just pass through don't waste other peoples time.

[Pibthong]

   KFK, I'd say you pose the central question. Due Diligence does indeed provide due diligence for our consideration and I share his thoughts and views, as I'd say most or all of us do.

   I'd add that I think there are too many unknowns to even venture a guess as to the answer. I mean, will the bureaucracy carry on as usual, or will it be halted or retarded by the writing of a new constitution, organizing a new interim government, the organizing of new elections, counter-coup scheming, power-play jockeying within by ambitious career officials etc etc?

   I'd think a central question is whether the Immi police have the time or focus to write new rules and regs concerning visas of any category and whether there is anyone in charge that is either authorized to approve them or who has the time and interest in approving new rules and regs. There has to be a new, temporary, civillian Cabinet. Would the chief of police, the temp Interior Minister and the temp Cabinet have time or care enuff to thread the needle re visas?

   The coup leaders did give special and immediate attention to moving a large number of troops to seal the borders with Laos and Myanmar, but not particularly because of farang visa runners--at least not to my knowledge anyway. No indication any other borders would be sealed.
   
   Meanwhile, visas continue to be issued (or denied) each day...

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

I appreciate the constructive reply, Pibthong.     Keep the faith ...

[hero]

Remember that there was no active government at the time when the new visa regulations were introduced.  While they are clearly a product of Thai Rak Thai policy, it doesn't appear that they were directly politically motivated.  There were no ministerial announcements (correct me if I'm wrong on that!) to support the new rules, it is something that the police puled as part of their mandate from a past political decision.  It would therefore seem likely that the rules would stay in place until such a time as an alternative political decision were made.

I'm speculating a bit and making assumptions too - however this new visa business wasn't one of Thaksin's personal populist policies like the "war on drugs" or the "early closing".  Clearly because if it had been he would have been in the news making sure everybody knew it was his "answer to the problem"!  It follows then that his disappearance won't necessarily make the new rules disappear.

[Pibthong]

hero,
   Agreed, new visa laws weren't ever a TRT priority. However, it always was TRT policy to hassle schools that hire farang and foreign teachers, eg, fees increased for visa and WP as did the paperwork required. Yes, the hassling of schools that hire foreign teachers by TRT was a "quiet" policy that Thaksin never went high profile about. At the present mininsterial and Cabinet approval of anything awaits the existence of new ministers and a new temporary Cabinet.
 
   Thai Embassies and Consulates however can determine their own approaches.

   The new 90 day max tourist visa within any 6-month period then having to wait 90 days before getting another tourist visa, approved a few days ago by Immi police, has yet to be ministerially approved--there ain't any ministers (or Cabinet) to approve it.

   Meanwhile, as noted, visas continue to be processed each day...

[Uncle Che]

That is interesting, Pibthong. I hadn't thought that it needed approval from the ministers, but you might be right. It is a change in regulations. Maybe it won't actually be implemented. I am sure we will all know after October 1st depending on if flyers are put up or not at the border crossings.

[hero]

I'm not sure if their has ever been direct ministerial control over the policies pursued by embassies and consulates.  For as long as I can remember they all seem to "interpret the rules" as they wish (or make them up as they go along!)

I think they are pretty much acting within their rights without ministerial approval because they aren't really implementing new laws, just reinterpreting old ones.  What they are actualy saying on the 3x30 day thing is that you aren't allowed more entries because we are afraid you may be working illegally (or running a business or up to no good) - this is well within the rights of immigration departments and looking objectively and empirically they are probably right to do so.  They are losing an awful lot of tax unpaid by people running businesses here on 30-day stamps (even a little bit of tax from underpaid teachers I suppose!). 

Technically they can refuse anyone entry at any time if they believe they are not intending to act within the rights that govern their entry to the kingdom (i.e. working illegally!)  Even folks with a visa could legally and justifiably be refused entry if the immigration department had reason to think that the terms of the visa would be violated (if they see the same people come in on non-Imm B visas, yet never get a work permit or declare any business interests - they would be able to justify not granting entry to the non Imm B visa holder I guess.  Something to look out for in the future!)

[Mods-Rockers]

However, it always was TRT policy to hassle schools that hire farang and foreign teachers, eg, fees increased for visa and WP as did the paperwork required. Yes, the hassling of schools that hire foreign teachers by TRT was a "quiet" policy that Thaksin never went high profile about.

I am to say the least confused by the above statement, CEP, MEP and EP program in public schools have all been initiatives started by TRT and thus by Taksin, so why would it be a TRT policy to hassle  schools that hired non Thai teachers to work in programs initiated by the TRT?

Increased Visa and WP fees can simply be put down to a simple thing called inflation, and were not aimed at teachers specifically but at all non Thai workers in whatever industry they were working in. The required paperwork can be put down IMHO to the MOE having an influence on IMM dept in an attempt to eliminate the KS roaders from the industry (whether this is a just move is irrelevant, as there are indeed many good teachers in Thailand sans degree), the MOE is entitled to stipulate, if it so deems correct, that a degree is a requirement for teaching and thus to obtain a teachers license, the fact then that schools choose to ignore this stipulation and thus cannot obtain the required license and thus a WP which in turn forces the teacher into a 30 day runner routine is the schools fault not the governments and certainly not the immigration departments.

Much as I abhor the majority of what the now deposed government did the fact remains that there are indeed a host more employment opportunities for teachers nowadays than there were before they came to power.

[ronnie]

According to the Bangkok Post the head of immigration has just been moved to an inactive post due to his connections to Thaksin so maybe things will change again when they appoint a replacement.

[Pibthong]

   Yeah, I was going to point out what ronnie has already pointed out--that the Immigration Police Chief, a Thaksin crony, Pol Lt Gen Suwat Thamrongsrisakul has been moved to an "inactive" post. 

   Perhaps this has been done purely because Suwat is a Thaksin crony. Or, perhaps it's been done because Suwat is a Thaksin crony AND/OR because he's carrying out TRT policy to impede or discourage even we legit farang teachers from coming to or remaining in Thailand.

   I note again for the record what I'd said in the previous post, ie, that the Thai Embssies and Consulates do selectively enforce visa policy set by Bangkok. Further, it does seem that Immi is set to enforce the new 90-day max beginning Oct 1, so maybe ministerial approval, raised initially by hero, may not be necessary.

   Yes, EPs have been initiated in government schools but proprietary schools that hire foreign teachers had been heavily hassled by TRT and Suwat, from the beginning of the Thaksin regime. Thailand needs to weed out, as it were, the visa run teachers and the proprietary schools that hire them, yes. We well know that the proprietary schools love to hire the cheapest white face they can find so the proprietary schools do need a kick from the government to hire better qualified farang and foreign teachers.

   Further, I just don't see inflation as a valid reason for the massive increase in fees and paperwork related to hiring foreign teachers, especially when taxi drivers still start their fares at Baht 35, same as when I arrived in Thailand in 1998, but typically now pay Baht 600 a week to the taxi company compared to Baht 400 I think it was in 1998.

   

   

[Mods-Rockers]

 
   Yes, EPs have been initiated in government schools but proprietary schools that hire foreign teachers had been heavily hassled by TRT and Suwat, from the beginning of the Thaksin regime. Thailand needs to weed out, as it were, the visa run teachers and the proprietary schools that hire them, yes. We well know that the proprietary schools love to hire the cheapest white face they can find so the proprietary schools do need a kick from the government to hire better qualified farang and foreign teachers.

I am somewhat confused by the above paragraph, In the first sentence you seem to be complaining vis a vis the governments; via the offices of immigration, attempts to hassle (in your words) the proprietry schools. Then in the remainder of the sentence you seem in favour of the need to ‘weed out, as it were, the visa run teachers and the proprietary schools that hire them’, is that a case of having your cake and eating it also?

   Further, I just don't see inflation as a valid reason for the massive increase in fees and paperwork related to hiring foreign teachers, especially when taxi drivers still start their fares at Baht 35, same as when I arrived in Thailand in 1998, but typically now pay Baht 600 a week to the taxi company compared to Baht 400 I think it was in 1998.

Let me ask you a simple question here, by what percentage have the visa fees gone up by in the 8 years you have been here? I know for a certainty that in the 4 years I have owned my pickup that fuel prices have gone up by 300+%, that smokes have gone up by some 200% in the 5 years I have been here, the price of gold has skyrocketed! Hell the list goes on and its all inflation with the exception of the required paperwork which strangely is not subject to inflation (unless you count the cost of photocopying) the rule on paperwork have simply been put under stricter controls and interpretation.

[Pibthong]

M-R,
   It comes down to the point that TRT always was anti-farang teacher. Long before the price of energy shot up, or the price of smokes went up because of taxes to the Tobacco Monopoly of Thailand, TRT had initiated its anti-farang teacher policies, eg, increases in fees for visas, WP and the additional hassle of much more peperwork. A 1-year WP 7 years ago, or pre-TRT, was Baht 500. Today it varies according to stay but a 1-year WP is Baht 3,800 last time I looked. That's both a burden to the farang teacher and/or the school that pays the fees and taxes, and it fattened TRT's give-away, vote-buying money fund for rural poor so they could buy mobile phones, motorcycles, color tvs etc. (I strongly favor an equitable sharing of the wealth of a society, but TRT bought rural votes while doing virtually nothing to improve or extend education, for example, past Grade 6 at government schools. TRT passed a law that said the government would provide universal education thru Grade 8, but few Thais in poverty still even get thru Grade 6.)

   If I recall correctly, inflation in recent years in Thailand has been around the 2% level, as the Central Bank pursues the monetary  policy of Targeted Inflation. That the cost of some goods and services have skyrocketed has not broken the Thai economy. Quite the opposite.

   Anyway, what about the taxi drivers and their static fare rates?

[hero]

I have always had the opinion that they put up the visa (and WP prices) because they could!  I mean, there don't seem to me to be less tourists or fewer teachers as a result.  It's a fairly safe money spinner for governments to hike up taxes where demand is inelastic (taxes levied on cigarettes is a fine example - we pay the extra, we don't smoke less!), a surefire way to boost revenue.

The recent increase in the overstay fee is another case in point.  The government probably worked out that the majority of people overstay by just a few days because they either didn't realise or couldn't be bothered to get a stamp/extension - fairly sound reasoning then to hike up the charges and make a few quid for the economy (if it ever gets past the immi. police oficers that is!)

I find it hard to agree that the now deposed TRT government was "anti" farang teachers, the numbers simply don't support it - there are now far more farang teachers working here than ever before and many more doing so legally.  The minimum salary requirements imposed on other professions were not applied to teachers when they easily could have been - that would have got rid of most of us for sure!

[wangsuda]

We are all confused about this visa thing. I received a notice from the US embassy that states:

The Thai Immigration Bureau recently announced a change in Visa Regulations that is scheduled to go into effect on October 1, 2006.  This change will affect citizens of 39 countries, including American citizens, who are exempt from obtaining a Thai visa prior to entering Thailand.  Effective October 1, 2006, American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa will be allowed to stay in Thailand for 30 days per visit as before.  However, the total duration of stay in Thailand for American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa cannot exceed 90 days in any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry.

American citizens who wish to remain in Thailand for longer than 90 days during any six-month period will be required to obtain a valid Thai visa from a Thai Embassy or Consulate that is authorized to issue visas.  The U.S. Embassy advises all American citizens who wish to obtain a Thai visa to contact the Thai Immigration Bureau for exact visa requirements and regulations.  Persons who do not comply with the new visa regulations risk being denied reentry to Thailand at the border.

The U.S. Embassy has been attempting to seek clarifications and additional information from the Thai Immigration Bureau regarding the change in visa regulations.  To date the Embassy has been unable to determine whether American citizens who have been in Thailand for 90 days or longer without a visa before October 1, 2006 will be considered to have reached their 90-day limit on October 1, 2006, or whether the 90 days will start from the first time the American citizen crosses the border into Thailand after the new regulation goes into effect.  When/if the Embassy receives a definitive answer to this question we will post that information on the Embassy’s web site at:  http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/index.htm.

Nobody knows nothing.

[Uncle Che]

Thanks for the message, Wangsuda.

It sounds like a case of up to the discretion of the officer manning the booth...

[Mods-Rockers]

   It comes down to the point that TRT always was anti-farang teacher.

Sorry, have to totally disagree with you here, if there is one thing that TRT have done its increase dramatically the numbers of opportunities for foreign teachers in Thailand. Don’t forget before 5 years ago there was no way a government school could have a farang, now most have 3 or 4. Anti teacher??

A 1-year WP 7 years ago, or pre-TRT, was Baht 500. Today it varies according to stay but a 1-year WP is Baht 3,800 last time I looked. That's both a burden to the farang teacher and/or the school that pays the fees and taxes,

Wow, seems like economics 101 was not on your hit list of courses to take. Average cost of a 30 day visa run 2500 baht = 30,000 baht a year. Average cost of a 60 day visa run to vientiene = 5,000 baht and the a 30 extension another 1,900= 27,600 baht per year, and so on, and you say that 3,800 baht for a WP is a burden for the teacher? Pray do explain you maths?

and it fattened TRT's give-away, vote-buying money fund for rural poor so they could buy mobile phones, motorcycles, color tvs etc. (I strongly favor an equitable sharing of the wealth of a society, but TRT bought rural votes while doing virtually nothing to improve or extend education, for example, past Grade 6 at government schools. TRT passed a law that said the government would provide universal education thru Grade 8, but few Thais in poverty still even get thru Grade 6.)

the loans to the rural poor were meant to be for improvements to the community or farms, the fact that the rural poor saw improvements as being a new mobile phone is hardly the TRT’s fault. You are correct that many rural poor kids still don’t get through a full set of school years, but the TRT did put in place the facility for them to do so.

 

Anyway, what about the taxi drivers and their static fare rates?

As I recall, about two years ago the taxi drivers petitioned the authorities to have the 35 baht base rate changed, reasoning that it was costing them money in lost revenue, they wanted the rate changed to 20 baht. Sorry about taking the wind out of your sails.

[Pibthong]

wangsuda,   

   I've stated (on the Main Page) that the US Embassy in Thailand is useless when it comes to individual citizen services. The gobbledeygook you post to make the identical point--about the new visa on arrival policies, tourists visas--gives us an excellent case in point, I would say. I'm actually quite surprised the US Embassy here bothered to take time to write anything on the matter, much less its usual unintelligible garble. 

[Pibthong]

M-R,
   Do ease up on the caffene, please.

   The taxi drivers petitioned the TRT government but still have Baht 35 as the starting fare, same as it was when I arrived in Thailand in 1998.

   (I can't believe I'm going to write this, but here goes: I got an "A" in Economics 101. I'm certified to teach Economics, which I've done in the States and in Thailand. In fact, I liked Hero's reference to "inelastic demand," which strokes the strings of my heart! Let's talk next (PM of course!) of "Comparative Advantage" in global trade!)

   By the by, what's TRT done to improve the quality of education? TRT had something like 5 ministers of education during its 5 years in government. The one serious one, the first, quit in disgust after 3 months, I believe it was. Another minister referred to the learner-centered classroom as "buffalo learning."  Thaksin himself doubled as education minister for more than a year of absolute neglect of education in Thailand.

   I'm happy to say that the real buffalo learner presently is skulking about in London where hopefuly he'll get lost in the night fog.

[hero]

I guess the former minister would probably say we are currently in the hands of "Buffalo Soldiers"

[Mods-Rockers]

M-R,
   Do ease up on the caffene, please.

   The taxi drivers petitioned the TRT government but still have Baht 35 as the starting fare, same as it was when I arrived in Thailand in 1998.

Yes but they were asking for a drop in prices not a raise.

 

(I can't believe I'm going to write this, but here goes: I got an "A" in Economics 101. I'm certified to teach Economics, which I've done in the States and in Thailand. In fact, I liked Hero's reference to "inelastic demand," which strokes the strings of my heart! Let's talk next (PM of course!) of "Comparative Advantage" in global trade!)

Maybe if you can prove its worth my while, like when you can justify your claim that 3800 baht for a WP hurts a teacher financially when the numbers quoted for visa runs far exceed than paltry figure? Actually I think I would prefer to discuss the comparative decay rates of nucleonic poisons within a shut down reactor core, but hey we all have something that we can pretend to be a smartass about, does it prove anything? Yes it proves jackshit! Well in the case of the smartass in my gaff it resulted in his receiving a nice letter from admin today, saying bye bye.

 

By the by, what's TRT done to improve the quality of education? TRT had something like 5 ministers of education during its 5 years in government. The one serious one, the first, quit in disgust after 3 months, I believe it was. Another minister referred to the learner-centered classroom as "buffalo learning."  Thaksin himself doubled as education minister for more than a year of absolute neglect of education in Thailand.

I am sure that you are related to Kerux over on ajarn, he also has a habit of sidetracking the main issue when he does not have an answer for it. The claim was that TRT has done quite a lot for the employment prospects of foreign teachers by introducing a whole host of new posts in government schools, NOT that they had improved education per se.
Of course you could well be implying that the influx of foreign teachers into government schools has been detrimental to the quality of education but if so please be more specific.

Imagine a scenario if you like; the next government decides that it is indeed wasting money trying to teach all kids both prathom and matayom the English language as a compulsory subject, they remove all the funding for said farang teachers or just provide sufficient funding to pay the farang the same as the Thai equivalent. What will that do for our job prospects? The new government could use the funds saved on improved Thai teacher training (in say Chinese (mandarin) and English) and thus remove any perceived need for white faces in schools. Its scary I know but entirely possible, and I dare say an idea that Mr T had rolled around at some time or other, lets face it the people who are most insistant on the white face in the classroom are those that became Mr T’s enemies anyway!

[hero]

The new government could use the funds saved on improved Thai teacher training (in say Chinese (mandarin) and English) and thus remove any perceived need for white faces in schools.

Yep, it's possible.  I find it hard to believe because I have only been in Thailand since Mr T became PM.

lets face it the people who are most insistant on the white face in the classroom are those that became Mr T’s enemies anyway!

Your average parent is still pretty keen on the idea too, let's not forget.  My experience of average Thai folk would suggest that more or better quality English teaching in every classroom would be a distinct vote-winner rather than the opposite scenario.

It's interesting really, all we can do is speculate.  I feel my job is pretty safe for the next couple of years and I never really look further ahead than that in any case!

[Uncle Che]

Well, it is true that the education ministry was a joke under Mr Thaksin. They could never get their act together. Maybe, just maybe, it was the lack of real leadership in the education ministry that allowed a lot of these EPs and MEPs to proliferate.

[anyonefortennis]

For anyone who is interested in finding out what the MOE tried to do to reform the Thai education system, their March 18th 2004 Strategic Action Plan makes an interesting read, unfortunately the constant hiring and firing within the ministry made the implementation of the plan damn near impossible. My own take on it is that TRT hierarchy expected miracles, reforms were written and then given ridiculously short time spans to take affect, normally around 3 months, b 4 some1 at the top decided it wasn’t working and they needed to reform the reform. However, improving the English language ability of Thai nationals has always been a high priority.

Whilst the SAP was not specifically related to the teaching of English there were a few areas that would of made life easier for the average native English speaking teacher and perhaps resulted in better employment opportunities. There are also areas that, as MR’s has already suggested could happen, may have reduced the demand for native English speaking teachers.

I don’t wish to be the prophet of doom, however I happen to agree with MR’s, I do believe that there is every possibility (indeed likely hood) that there will come a day when the demand for native English speaking teachers will dwindle, surely it has to be the aim (as in other industry sectors) of the MOE to have Thai nationals who are adequately trained and experienced  teaching English in all government schools, colleges and universities. However, given that it took the energy sector over 20 years to achieve majority Thai personnel working both off and onshore I guess we can sleep safe in the knowledge that we have at least double that time! Of course international schools and language centres will still need native speakers, so there will be some jobs around.

There are also a few other reports currently on the MOE website that you may wish to peruse at leisure, namely; Road Map and Measures for Expediting Education Reform in Thailand and the Education development plan of the provinces along the southern border (although this will be of little interest to those not working in this area). IMHO there are some decent people within the MOE and its sub-branches, unfortunately they have been hindered in their efforts by some bizzare decision making from outside of the MOE.

For those with a special place in their hearts for economics, especially related to Thailand, you maybe interested to read about the Sufficiency Economy, I’m certainly no expert on the topic and won’t pretend to be either, but the following link can provide you plentiful information on the aforementioned philosophy - http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue3/article_292.html . 

[samvimes]

Unfortunately, Thai nationals who speak very good English expect a good salary.

Those Thais I know with a masters from a western country expect at least 50,000 per month and often get more, there is no way in hell they are going to work for peanuts.

I've read the 2004 proposal on Thai educational reform and can't see that any of the proposed reforms were implemented at all. Agree 100% with Anyoneoftennis and I can't see how the proposals would have actually led to an improvement, it was all a lot of hot air.

Research and acedemia is pretty much a joke in Thailand, even if you try to do something serious, there is a high probability that those in the upper ranks will not have the abililty or knowledge to comprehend what you are trying to do.

[Pibthong]

   I think there's very little doubt among farang with any time teaching in Thailand that the intention is evenutally to replace native-speakers with Thais educated in English by native-speakers; throw in a mix of Indians and Filipinos etc and the goal (and saving in salary) would be realized. When is difficult to say.

   Anyone who hasn't read the 1999 Education Reform Act might give it a look and then take a look at education in Thailand 2006: by doing so one can plainly see how much TRT has ignored education in Thailand. TRT does not want an educated general population. Such a development would change Thaland fundamentally, which would be too radical for the established owners and operators of Thailand Inc., to include the government under TRT.

   (Hero: thanks for the chuckle---Buffalo Soldiers!!! What would Victorio say?!? Perhaps something like: "The wise man takes dozens of suitcases and trunks on many planes when he makes his run for it!) 

[anyonefortennis]

I can’t agree with you Pibthong when you say that “TRT does not want an educated general population”. When a country is moving from an agricultural based nation toward an industrialized nation a critical aspect in achieving this goal is to raise the educational standards within the country so they have a labor force with the required skill to achieve this goal, and one of the skills required is basic literacy.

Sure they (or any government) didn’t want highly educated critical thinkers stalking the streets of BKK, lord knows they had enough problems with the handful that do exist, but to think that they wanted to restrict basic education is just not cricket. In fact they did try and increase the number of kids receiving 9 years of education.     

Let’s remember that we are in a developing country, and as developing countries go I don’t think the education system is too bad………..could it better? of course it bloody could.

[Mods-Rockers]

I can’t agree with you Pibthong when you say that “TRT does not want an educated general population”. When a country is moving from an agricultural based nation toward an industrialized nation a critical aspect in achieving this goal is to raise the educational standards within the country so they have a labor force with the required skill to achieve this goal, and one of the skills required is basic literacy.

Fully agree with you AFT, but also have to agree with Pt to a point, no asian government seems to want its people highly educated, certainly not educated in such a way that the people can think critically for themselves, Pt seems to think it’s a purely TRT problem but the reality is that the same thing has been going on here for donkeys years, TRT if anything seems to have been trying to make changes, the 2001 national curriculum being a case in point, yes its hardly been implemented but that is more a problem at the coalface than the pithead.

Sure they (or any government) didn’t want highly educated critical thinkers stalking the streets of BKK, lord knows they had enough problems with the handful that do exist, but to think that they wanted to restrict basic education is just not cricket. In fact they did try and increase the number of kids receiving 9 years of education.     

You have hit the nail squarely on the head here, you have only got to look at former French Indochina to see the results of having too many (or maybe nowhere near enough, quite possibly the latter) of the little people with high education, after  all Ho Chi  Mingh (sp) is a great case in point.

BTW Pibthong I am still waiting for your explanation as to why a 3800 baht WP costs more, or is more of a financial burden than 12*30 day visa runs, I have plugged something like 200 different scenarios into the old maths modeling software so far and each time come up blank, you obviously know a few parameters that I am missing!!

[hero]

no asian government seems to want its people highly educated, certainly not educated in such a way that the people can think critically for themselves, Pt seems to think it’s a purely TRT problem but the reality is that the same thing has been going on here for donkeys years

It's a cultural thing too, remember.  In business they don't want or expect junior executives to announce ideas or ask questions in meetings - they don't reward it with as Western companies might.  It follows that in school it is not expected or encouraged that students do other than accept the teacher's instruction and remember it "sponge style"!

Being able to rationalise, solve problems and "think for one's selves" are traits that we consider to be benchmarks of intelligence - here that's not the case at all as with other parts of Asia.  Academic excellence here is measured by things like speech competitions (that are actually memorise and recite exercises!) and multiple choice testing! 

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Regarding the new on-entry visa exemption regulations, here's an update

from people who have crossed the Cambodian border since 1 October :


please be advised that visa-runs are operating 'business as usual'

but - immigration officers have begun marking passports,

that is, they have begun the process of counting the

number of on-entry stamps in your passport.


That doesn't necessarily mean they will enforce

the '2 runs you're out rule' but it appears

that they are moving in that direction.


There's no reason for people to panic.


If you are planning to come to Thailand,

be sure to apply for a 60 day Tourist Visa

at your nearest Thai consulate or embassy

before you hop on a plane bound for Bangkok.


If you've already lined up a job, ask the manager, DOS or director

to send you a signed letter of employment on school letterhead

so can apply for a Non-Immigrant B Visa before you depart.


If you're already in Thailand - and doing 30 day border runs,

ask your employer about sponsoring a Non-B and/or work permit.



That's the best advice I can offer at the moment.   



With regard to visa-runs, I've updated The Master Index Thailand FAQ. 

If anyone has something to add to what I've written below, I'm all ears:





Q2.2:  I'm already in Thailand and my visa is about to expire. 

A2.2:  Don't panic!  Many expats are in the same boat; most of them just do a border run.  That means simply  crossing one of Thailand's borders into a neighboring country and coming back with a new visa.  For those who prefer a little company and a helping hand with the paperwork, there are several visa-run bus services available to guide you over the border and through the so-called U-turn.  The Bangkok to Cambodia run takes roughly 4 hours each way (depending on traffic) plus 30 minutes to several hours at the border itself while you stand in line for your stamps.  note 1: Don't forget to bring along one passport photo, which will be stapled to your Cambodia visa app!  note 2:  More and more visa-run services are crossing the border at Ban Laem Village in Chantaburi, a recently opened border south of Poipet which is less crowded and a lot faster than Poipet. 

About Poipet:  If you do cross the border at Poipet, please be aware that there are gangs of highly skilled child pickpockets waiting on the Cambodian side of the border. Just be smart: leave your jewelry & digital camera on the bus or at home, and put your cash in a safe location, preferably not in a backpack or wallet. These kids are clever; they know where to look and how to distract you for the brief moment it takes to relieve you of your cash. 

update effective 1 October 2006: people who enter Thailand on a 30 day on-entry visa will be allowed to extend that visa twice, allowing a total stay of 90 days.  Details of the new rules can be found here. If you are planning to arrive in Thailand without a firm job offer, [i.e. without a Non-Immigrant B Visa] it would be a good idea to visit your nearest Thai consulate or embassy and apply for a 60 Day Tourist Visa before departing for Thailand. Depending on where you apply, you might get a multi-entry tourist visa, which would be ideal. In plain English, any visa is better than the 30 day visa exemption.


Keep your eye on the Thai Visa.com Forum for the latest news and updates!


http://www.alexvisarun.com/  (Alex Visa Run / Bangkok to Cambodia -> 1,900 Baht)

http://www.smsilom.com/  (SM Travel Visa Run / Bangkok to Cambodia -> 2,000 Baht)

http://www.thaivisaservice.com/  (Sawasdee Transport / Bangkok to Cambodia -> 1,800 Baht)

http://www.thaivisarun.com/ (Quick Thai Visa Run [the one I use] Bangkok to Cambodia -> 2,000 Baht)

tour@finedaytour.com (Fine Day Tours / Bangkok to Cambodia / E-mail or call 02 682 8939 ~ 41 -> 2,000 Baht)

http://www.eastmeetswesttravel.com/cmb/viewvisa.phtml (East Meets West / BKK to Cambodia  -> 2,000 Baht)

SugarFreedom@Hotmail.com  (Freedom Tours / BKK to Cambodia / E-mail or call 01 347 4275 -> 1,900 Baht)

http://www.jackgolf.com/eng/visaService/visaService.asp (Jack's Golf / BKK to Cambodia -> 2,000 Baht)

http://www.freewebs.com/visarun-chiangmai-maesai/ (M&J Chiang Mai to Mae Sai  -> 760 Baht + visa)

http://www.jrtravelthai.zoomshare.com/ (J.R. Travel / Pattaya to Cambodia visa-run -> 2,000 Baht)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/  (Thai Visa Forum -> Thailand's trusted online visa resource!)

http://www.asiatradingonline.com/visas.htm  (Asia Trading Post ->  border  updates)

[monkey woods]

 
Its backpackers, fakers and runners that taint the brush for all of us. Good riddence to them. 
If you are passing through then just pass through don't waste other peoples time.

That's right DD, you keep banging on about 'us and them'  if it makes you feel better. You must be an absolutely super teacher if you are not a "backpacker, faker or runner". Well done! Your time at university was well-spent, although you still spell "riddance" incorrectly.

Just how are folks that are passing through wasting other peoples time?

[Pibthong]

   Kent and Monkey Woods bring us back on topic, ie, visas, but as teachers education in Thailand is of paramount concern to us once in the country. Having taught in Korea, I recognize from that and my general knowledge of education in East Asia that the Socratic method is alien to the region, as is critical thinking and initiative (after a recent earthquake in Japan people sat on the street waiting for the government to come to tell them what to do), among other characteristics and traits common to farang.

   Very encouragingly I see the new interim PM has appointed as education minister one of the most qualified reformers of education in Thailand, Dr. Kasem Wattanachai, so I have my first feeling of hope that the quality of education in Thailand might begin to acquire a new attention, priority and direction. This is, I believe, Dr. Kasem's second bite at the apple, as it were, as he was the first TRT (Talk, Rob & Take) minister of education in the new Thaksin government in mid-2001. Dr. Kasem lasted about three months before he quit in disgust at TRT's complete lack of comittment to improving the quality of education in Thailand. It's truly great to see him recalled to his calling by the interim government (another positive in respect to the CNS).

   Maybe better days are coming for education in Thailand. I do believe so...

   While I have the floor, Mods-Rockers, I'd rather go to the Ministry of Labor in Yannawa or at a provincial office for a WP than make twelve, 30-day visa runs. It's both more convenient and consistent with law. That alone makes the Baht 3800 WP fee more viable in economic terms and and professionally, regardless of whether I or the school pay the fee. Please think about reworking your econometrics models to include such less tangible but often as equally important factors as time, effort, legality, professionalism etc.

[hero]

I see the new interim PM has appointed as education minister one of the most qualified reformers of education in Thailand, Dr. Kasem Wattanachai

Link?

It's funny because I was just reading a couple of articles in the press .....

Education Minister - updated

1:30 pm [Today]: Kasem Wattanachai, a member of the Privy Council, denies he was approach to join the Cabinet. He insisted that he will continue to retain his current position as the Privy Council.

"I can guarantee you that PM Surayudh Chulanont will not approach me for the job. There are many people who are more suitable to be the education minister," Kasem said.

October 4, 2006

5pm - Privy Councillor member Dr Kasem Wattanachai today cancelled his meeting after receiving an urgent telephone call from the prime minister. This caused speculation that he would be in the cabinet and possibly as Education Minister, the position he held under Thaksin government.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/05/headlines/headlines_30015276.php

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/05Oct2006_news11.php

I was also under the impression that the well-respected as an administrator in educational institutions Dr. Kasem was pretty well out of his depth as education minister 5 years ago and quit when other school administrators wouldn't play to his tune leaving Thaksin in charge of education personally!

Anyway, we'll wait and see - it seems the cabinet will be named next week, in the most recent article it seems Dr. Kasem is still favourite despite today's denial.....

Separately, Surayud yesterday met with former education minister Kasem Wattanachai at Government House, said a source, who added that Kasem had to skip a meeting on religious education he was to chair. They were expected to discuss Kasem's role in the new Cabinet, probably the education portfolio.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/05/politics/politics_30015426.php

[Mods-Rockers]

Its interesting that you start with this:

   Kent and Monkey Woods bring us back on topic, ie, visas,

Then as a parting shot drag it back off topic with this validation of what I stated:

   While I have the floor, Mods-Rockers, I'd rather go to the Ministry of Labor in Yannawa or at a provincial office for a WP than make twelve, 30-day visa runs. It's both more convenient and consistent with law. That alone makes the Baht 3800 WP fee more viable in economic terms and and professionally, regardless of whether I or the school pay the fee. Please think about reworking your econometrics models to include such less tangible but often as equally important factors as time, effort, legality, professionalism etc.

Remember Pib that it was you who implied that the cost of a WP caused hardship to the teacher and it was I who queried you on how your economic model worked after showing the relative costs, vis-� -vis the 30 day runs, as someone who has always worked with a WP with the exception of my first gig with a hall of shame company, I am well and truly in favour of the legal method.

I like Vientiene a tremendously but…

[Pibthong]

Mods-Rockers,
   I'm pleased to see that you have stepped forward to declare yourself in favor of the legal method of working, ie, having a WP. Your comment in a previous post relative to twelve, 30-day visa runs had left me unclear as to your relationship with the law in this respect. I understand your reference to your past WP situation at a present Hall of Shame school, so I don't say or mean to imply that you presently aren't on the up and up.

   Incidentally, I've been reliably advised that Hanoi is the best place presently to obtain a Non-Immi-B visa.

Hero,
   Dr. Kasem is a recognized and respected professional in education who, as TRT's 1st minister of education, wouldn't play political ball with the TRT Thaksin people (Talk, Rob, Take) and was gone before three months had passed. Thaksin was indeed a CEO business person. Private business and public trust and administration are two different concepts of organizational leadership--are in fact two different beasts. Indeed, public administrators are not CEO types--they are public administrators. Thaksin and his TRT people at the ministry of education had serious conceptual differences with Dr. Kasem about the role and function of a public administrator, ie, one who ministers the laws to the particular public under his/her wing. This TRT CEO stuff--CEO Governor, CEO Ambassador etc--now is being shoveled into the trashheap by the CNS happy to say.

 

[Mods-Rockers]

Mods-Rockers,
   I'm pleased to see that you have stepped forward to declare yourself in favor of the legal method of working, ie, having a WP… so I don't say or mean to imply that you presently aren't on the up and up.

Well luckily I am in a position where, with regards to WP’s at least, they are on the ball. I had my first visit to the MOL within two days of starting the job and WP in hand within 7 working days.

 

Incidentally, I've been reliably advised that Hanoi is the best place presently to obtain a Non-Immi-B visa.

Its been many a moon since I last had a Non-imm B and that was from Vientienne, a bit of a hassle, the next visa was a non-imm O obtained in the consulate in Cardiff, Wales 15 minutes from start to finish which included 10 mins talking about the 6 nations games while waiting for a rickety old Photocopier to warm up. Since then its always been renewed in immi in Bkk with little or no hassle. For those who can, always try and keep your non imm O completely separate from your WP, right now I am in that situation and thus if I leave my job I still have the full duration of the visa intact. All you need is to be able to show an outside income of 40K or 400K in the bank or a mixture of both and your O visa will be given, oh and they might come round your house to check you do live with the wife. They do so enjoy a cold chiang if they do visit.

[Mods-Rockers]

oh yes if you are of the female persuasion and married to a Thai guy then you dont have the hassle of getting a visa as you are apparently entitled to Thai citizenship, and this in a country with no sex discrimination

[Uncle Che]

And it gets better. If you are a foreigner married to another foreigner and your wife has a work permit then you qualify for a non-immigrant O visa, no minimum salary, no nothing. In effect the foreigner has more "rights" than the thai person when it comes to having their spouse live with them...or maybe it is just xenophobia.