Topic: New Background Checks?

[obviouslyabackpacker]

Thourough checks!!!!!....my arse!

There will be soon though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5266716.stm......read this link.

Time to start running for those hills guys!



 

[Mods-Rockers]

Now why would we need to run? unless of course we NEED TO RUN!

[Uncle Che]

I am afraid that too many good teachers will fall inadvertently into the cracks. What kind of criteria will they check for? Speeding ticket? DUI? You know, DUI can be a felony in the states. It is a crime of stupidity, just ask Mel Gibson. Does a DUI 5 years ago preclude someone from being a great teacher today? What kind of checking of qualifications will they require? Who pays for the background check? How secure will the background check documents be? How long till they can be purcahse on Khao San Rd?

[blackmail]

DUI used to be a disqualification from teaching in my state.  Not anymore; they were losing to many.  Recently a state legislator was quoted as saying:  "we are so desperate for special ed. teachers that if a person is certified and can fog a beer glass; we need to hire him."

[Mods-Rockers]

Who pays for the background check? How secure will the background check documents be? How long till they can be purcahse on Khao San Rd?

Che, the statements above are ample reasons to not worry about it all, In their hearts the Thais know they cannot get the degree issues sorted correctly and they are not going to confuse the issues further, it costs too much and is too easy to fudge with.
Its all fillibuster (sp) right now, in two weeks there will be another headline and this will all be forgotten.

[hero]

^ I agree, it's a bit of a shame though I think.  I would really like to see something like this implemented properly with a view to protecting good eggs and eliminating bad eggs.  It's unfortunate that, here anyway, such regulation would be almost impossible to implement fairly and effectively.  Regulation and vetting procedures are not all that reliable or fair in the West after all!

[Thai Me Up]

Typical knee jerk reaction...let's do background checks immediately on every foreign teacher so schools don't end up hiring murdering (possibly) perverted scum like Karr.

And when was Karr convicted of JBR's murder?  It hasn't happened yet, has it?  Maybe he's a crackpot or maybe he did the crime; he's still innocent until proven guilty.

Does anyone here remember the McMartin pre-school scandal?  An entire family was convicted in the media, false memories were presented by an over-ambitious DA as evidence, and the entire California pre-school industry was wiped out in a matter of months.  In case anyone's forgotten, the McMartins were cleared of EVERY SINGLE CHARGE against them.

As far as brutality and child molestation are concerned, Thai teachers have cornered this market already.  It's an entire adult teaching community that thinks nothing of publicly whipping and physically brutalizing school children.  Who are these disgusting teachers (AND MONKS) who beat students?  Are they an aberration or the norm here in Thailand?  I think we all know the answer.

Why should the Thais turn their microscopes on us foreigners?  "Set thine own house in order."

[luk ling]

Why should the Thais turn their microscopes on us foreigners?  "Set thine own house in order."

Why on earth would they do that, when they can blame everything on the mad, bad farang?

[yippee]

When I joined my latest job in April 2006 (education related but not teaching) I was asked to get a police record. "I didn't know I needed one" I retorted, "What crime would you recommend I commit?" but of course I was joking. It took me 8 weeks and 10 GBP to get a police record from the UK police that basically said "We don't know you" for which I then had to get notorised by the embassy and copied to my employer and that is it. Now that I am officially declared a crime free and 'safe' individual I am now free to roam the lands and work happily anywhere in Thailand. Fortunately I am a sane individual but what if you was one of those who is a naughty boy and who may not have been caught yet by the police back home... silly if you ask me.

The other aspect of these so called 'background checks' that of black list of suspects that the Thai government are offering to compile will no doubt have some very good teachers being pencilled in for a fee or otherwise because they just so happened to annoy the admin staff at their old school and who is going to do the sanity check that what appears on these lists is actually bonifide and true.

If there is one thing I have learnt here in bonking bangers is that they would rather believe the crap spouted by some uneducated goat herder over a foreigner and that is the scariest part of all these so called back ground checks.

[Ronaldo]

I once went to an interview at a school in BKK that just didn't go right, or more exactly didn't feel right (and feeling is very much the operative word). I felt very uncomfortable with the way the questions were going (example: our children stay at teachers houses: it was a day school), to the degree that I felt that I should ask a few questions of my own.

My first simple question was  "what are your qualifications and experience(s) in education, I was curious and wanted to dispel any misunderstanding in either understanding what exactly was going on or language misinterpretation ( however, the interviewer spoke reasonable English).

Cutting to the chase... The interviewer exploded (odd for a Thai) into a rant about foreigners, us poor Thai's, exploitation, on and on, and so on. He ended up foaming at the mouth (not a pretty sight), but he had nice new beamer in the car park (he made a big thing about it in the initial stage of the interview (and yes, it could well have been on credit)

To be honest I started to laugh at these antics and told him, thank you very much for the interview and I'll be touch, once I had checked him out with the Thai police and educational authorities (pure bluster on my part). His retort was to say 'not to do that and that he was under a lot of strain'.

So, although background checks maybe become par for the course, who will pay for them, who will do them and what exactly do they mean (we haven't caught you yet! Or what?). And who does what with the collected information...

In all honesty background checks in general just like references are no guarantee of future actions and IMO remain of little value.

[monkey woods]

And when was Karr convicted of JBR's murder?  It hasn't happened yet, has it?  Maybe he's a crackpot or maybe he did the crime; he's still innocent until proven guilty.

Eerie.


Thai Me Up, what are the next winning lottery numbers, please?

[Thai Me Up]

monkey woods,
Though Karr turned out to be deluded publicity seeker, the backlash in Thailand is very real.  I was in a bank recently and the manager came over to me to and said, "You look like Karr, teacher who kill American baby."  Despite the LOS moniker, I think the way Thais drive their cars and motorbikes is a more honest picture of the type of people we're working and living with.

You want to win the lottery?  I'm reconsidering Thailand as a place to work...that's the best lottery ticket I can give myself.  I seriously believe Thailand is becoming an unacceptably risky place for me to teach.

[monkey woods]

I was in a bank recently and the manager came over to me to and said, "You look like Karr, teacher who kill American baby."

Bank Manager: "You look like Karr, teacher who kill American baby"
Thai Me Up:    "You look like Pol Pot. Can I see your credentials, please?"




Background checks? What are they going to turn up? There may be a few problems, a few unlucky ones, and then everything will return to normal (or whatever passes for 'normal') until the next time.

[NamTok]

The other aspect of these so called 'background checks' that of black list of suspects that the Thai government are offering to compile will no doubt have some very good teachers being pencilled in for a fee or otherwise because they just so happened to annoy the admin staff at their old school and who is going to do the sanity check that what appears on these lists is actually bonifide and true.

[/quote]

  Yippiee, I do believe you make a central point in the post-JMK hysteria in the Thai govenrment--the Joe McCarthy and George Bush-Dick Cheney--approach of blacklisting. I can think of the recently important case in the US, nevermind Thailand, of Vallery Palme who was "outed" as a CIA operative because her diplomat husband was sent on a public foreign mission only to report back to Bush-Cheney that there wasn't any "yellowcake" for nuclear weapons in Niger.

   We know that in in Thailand, the "blacklist" is much preferred culturally, politically and historically to passing laws in Parliament and having the bureauracy promulgate rules and regs pursuant to the laws, and to turn over to the law enforcement authorities responsibility to ferret and cull out the violators.

   The late Pres Nixon had his "Enemies List" during the Watergate Scandal. The blacklist in 3rd World countries is a common practice in government. The schools of Thailand, especially the proprietary schools, could indeed place on a blacklist in one way or another the names of teachers they don't like, without any legitimate basis whatsoever, period.

   The blacklist may pose the most destructive means yet by which mean and vengeful owners can "even the score" with teachers who have pointed out publicly the serious deficiencies at the school(s) vis-a-vis farang teachers. 

[Thai Me Up]

Let's see,  , I'm supposed to be concerned about a non-existent blacklist that may someday prevent me from getting a Mc-Teaching Job at a school where I will never have any opportunity for professional advancement in the first place.  Since the work permit and visa processes are Byzantine, I think the message is becoming loud and clear:  "Get out, we don't really want you here."

[anyonefortennis]

TMU,

you having a bad day per chance?

I think you are pretty wide of the mark claiming that "most" English teachers are unqualified and inexperienced, sure there are some dunder heads roaming around but on the whole I would put them in the minority.

To be making such claims against your colleagues isn't really going to help improve the badly tarnished image of teachers, we need to be talking ourselves up not putting ourselves down.

As for the visa and wp, is it really that bad? Out in the sticks it's a piece of cake to renew the visa and wp, just take what they ask for and Bob's your uncle.

[NamTok]

   Concerning talk by the Thai government of a "blacklist," everything among the many things being considered to "cull" any "undesirable" would-be teachers presently is at the talking stage. In 3rd World countries most talk about "reform" or changes that ostensibly would improve something don't much get beyond the point of blah, blah, blah.

   Speaking socio-culturally and considering politics, if anything is likely to come from all of the present talk, it probably would be a blacklist rather than a law, rules, regs and turning it over to the Thai police (which the Thai people consistently rate in public opinion surveys as the most corrupt of all organizations in Thailand).

   Any blacklist that might be established would at best be predicated on whim, would be arbitrary and capricious; controlled for and by the wild and unanswerable education establishment of Thailand. I think it's something we foreign teachers need to be concerned about. As Ronaldo correctly asks: "...who does what with the collected information?" The Admin of TeflWatch shares such concerns. Additionally, I would also ask, who would provide the information, why, and how reliable would the supposed info be?

[Thai Me Up]

My comment is to the point of a blacklist.  With an utter lack of professional advancement in Thailand and the generally poor teaching salaries offered here, I think a blacklist will drive more experienced teachers to Southeast Asian countries that actually want to welcome English teachers, not persecute them.

[NamTok]

Thai Me Up,

   Your point is well taken. The Thai Rak Thai party and government has been especially hostile toward farangs excepting those farangs who can deposit Baht 10 mil into a retirement bank account. The excessive nationalism and inherent racism of TRT is well known, is it not? The matter of JMK is a perfect storm for TRT to move decisively against farangs (despite the disorganized state of the party and government throughout the year). 

[admin]

Posts were split from the thread and moved where they belong, the troubleshooting room.

[ajarnnormal]

I think the message has been as clear as that for sometime. I have just read and article that was in the Phuket Gazette on 3rd of Novenber. Saying schools across Phuket will petition the MOE to ease if not scrap the new regulations requiring all teachers to have at least a BA and to pass an extensive background check before they begin work. A meeting was held in Phuket and 37 school representitives attended. I also heard that all these crackdowns will not affect teachers who already have a WP and TL when they come to renew it in the future.. there are 105 foreign teachers in Phucket employed by 35 different schools. The truth of the matter is there are not enough to go round. The heading to the article said that Bangkok, Chiang Mai and Phuket would be the hardest hit by the crackdown.

[bomha]

Maybe the Thai Rak Thai party (Thais love Thais) was exploiting a popular idea among the people, and that party put people into power who are still there, eager to get rid of you and me.  The indicators go in that direction, still, after the coup.

One minute I think the sky is falling, and the other minute, it does.

[Rumpole]

Maybe the Thai Rak Thai party (Thais love Thais) was exploiting a popular idea among the people, and that party put people into power who are still there, eager to get rid of you and me.  The indicators go in that direction, still, after the coup.

Thai Rak Thai was merely a manifestation of Thai xenophobia, it was not the cause of it.  Toxin may have fanned the flames a little but the fire itself was lit centuries ago.  As you rightly observe, the voters who put TRT into office haven't gone anywhere - and neither has their insecurity and general contempt for anyone who is not Thai.

[bomha]

Maybe the Thai Rak Thai party (Thais love Thais) was exploiting a popular idea among the people, and that party put people into power who are still there, eager to get rid of you and me.  The indicators go in that direction, still, after the coup.

Thai Rak Thai was merely a manifestation of Thai xenophobia, it was not the cause of it.  Toxin may have fanned the flames a little but the fire itself was lit centuries ago.  As you rightly observe, the voters who put TRT into office haven't gone anywhere - and neither has their insecurity and general contempt for anyone who is not Thai.

This thread started in August or earlier, before the coup.  The John Mark Karr episode was a lose-face thing for Thailand, and the schools and the MOE lost face.  So they react.  The visa on entry crackdown, the end of one of the investment visas, I think it is the three million baht visa.  Consulates being stricter in southeast Asia.  The big teachers license problem now. 

And all this in a country that thinks or thought it needed more native speakers to teach English.  Good teachers are leaving, and many more will leave in April and May.  Replacements are not arriving. 

Compared to last August, will you be less likely in December and January, to ask your back-home mate to drop everything, and come to Thailand to teach English?  I am less likely to do that.

[Pibthong]

   Thaksin and the Thai Rak Thai party effectively took control of the government bureaucracy when it passed the Government Admiistrative Reform Act in about 2002 or 2003. "Reform" indeed! Thaksin and the TRT are out of the government (so far) but the anti-farang nationalists are still there, for sure.

   I am indeed less likely, if not entirely unlikely, to do that, bomha. Then there's my own thinking, which continues to evolve in response to the TRT-spirited new rules and regs that keep coming down. Maybe, tho, traditional Thai incompetence will foil their own 'best' efforts.

[RobRoy]

I think we're all missing the real meaning of "background checks".  I will admit, this is only my drunken rambling, but I think, only think that maybe I might be near the mark....

Pre-Coup (PC), Post Coup (PosC)
PosC the government decided that ALL (both foreign and Thai) teachers WILL be approved and licensed to teach by the Ministry of Labor (Labour for you Brits) by November 28, 2006.
(This is the literal quote from the 1st paragraph of the notice my boss received).

Now we all know the above, but what is the REAL effect....what is the government REALLY accomplishing?

PC, any teacher working at a Thai government school needed NO documentation other than his passport in order to obtain a work permit.  No degree, no TEFL, no toilet paper...nothing.
In order to obtain a teachers license to work at a private school, a degree of some sort was necessary.  From here is the many variations ...EP programs, need a degree in what you're teaching..etc...

But, at the end of the day today....The MOE is coming to evaluate ALL the teachers (Thai and Farang).   It is happening at Satit Ram.  Receiving our licenses depends on the quality of our paperwork and the evaluation of the MOE. 

Hope those of you working at private schools can bribe your way out!!!!  Us poor fuds at Ram have to do the guantlet!

[diaw]

Good teachers are leaving, and many more will leave in April and May.  Replacements are not arriving. 

Compared to last August, will you be less likely in December and January, to ask your back-home mate to drop everything, and come to Thailand to teach English?  I am less likely to do that.

It's not only teachers that are leaving. It seems that many westerners are leaving Puket & Koh Samui. Many business folks are making alternative plans in terms of investing in Thailand.

In the long run, Thailand is gradually digging its own grave - only it does not know or care otherwise.

[bomha]

diaw, I think that you have it correctly.  Many farang are leaving Thailand, and not just illegal backpackers.  I think the backpackers were not always illegal.  The handwriting is on the wall.  Thai ostriches have dug their heads into the sand.  Thais like the educational system of the 1970's.  They kind of wanted reform, but not really.  Reform requires hard work and hard thought.  So the Thai teachers teach 24 hours per week in hot classes of 50 students, and kowtow to their bosses the same way their great-great-grandparents kowtowed to the Siamese man who owned the rice fields.  Because, after all, the Thai students get on their knees to kneel before the great ajarns who cannot speak clear English.

Were it not for tight vaginas, why would so many young men come to Thailand to teach English?

[hero]

It's not only teachers that are leaving. It seems that many westerners are leaving Puket & Koh Samui. Many business folks are making alternative plans in terms of investing in Thailand.

Is this hearsay, personal observation or does it come from a report you have seen?  If it's the latter could you provide a link to where it came from, please.  I'm not being argumentative, but it's a very grand statement and flies in the face of what I have heard reported from friends of mine in Phuket.

[logically_speaking]

BGC are common in most countries... Why wouldn't the Thais want them?  You can't even get a visa to the US without a statement from the police saying you have no record.  FBI Background checks take 6 weeks and cost all of 15 dollars.  You get back a letter that says as a previous respondent writes  "we have no record of you" Even for substitute teaching in the states i had to carry one of these letter with me. 
Why whine when they are only catching up to other modern countries?
Karr was not convicted... but he does have an FBI record for arrest, no conviction and that will show up, as well as the kiddie porn.  Besides... he is so creepy and now well known what idiot would hire him for anything?

[RobRoy]

Dang, I guess I'm getting too old for this, but has anyone to add anything about the CURRENT regs in Thailand.....we are getting our inspection next week and let you know how we do.....

And yes, that means the government inspectors are saying hello next week and I would like to hear from others getting the same inspection.

[Pibthong]

   Great reminder, RobRoy, as reports on government "visits" to schools seem to have died weeks ago. How's it going out there for you guys--all of you? 

[hero]

Our applications for TLs went off a few weeks ago.  We are a government school and all have WPs already.  The lady responsible for managing us was heard saying, "We have paid 500 Baht for each of you, so there shouldn't be any problems!"