Topic: Potisarnpittiyakorn School

[GoingMad]

It was funny to read the messages before about Potisarnpitiyakorn school.  As staff here, I seen it go from so nice to really bad in just only a short period of 2 or 3 months.  We now basically have two groups fighting at the school -- the teachers who have been here 2 years, and the teachers who started this year.  Sometimes teachers even fight in their own groups.   

've I been here long enough to say to new teachers be careful about coming here for now.  It is just too scarey and angry a place these days.  We have teachers backstabbing each other to get a good position with management, people lying, and one teacher who has been given some new manager duties trying to control things like a dictator, even the information we share and talk about.  He has even forbid us from contacting people who use to work here or telling anyone anything about what is going on here now.  And he is an American!  Thought the US was the place for free speaking and open minds. Ha ha.

Before our last coordinator resigned, things were mostly good.  Most teachers thought is was really a special school where we could enjoy teaching and feel good about our work.  I came here because it seems so different from most Thailand schools.  Everything was organized and foreign teachers were protected and defended.  Now things have just gone down hill.  Thai teachers are grabbing at the chance to be our bosses and tell us what to do, because the last coordinator never let them.

It is really sad that foreign teachers are not working together to support each other, and the administration has no background to deal with us well.  They keep changing informations, asking us to sign new papers on top of our contracts to promise we will stay or say if we will look for other jobs, having 2 or 3 hour meetings that make us mostly confused, and even telling students bad things about people who left.  Why did they even put ads out for teachers if they want us to feel good here.  We have enough teachers now.  Really they are just making a big mess.  First thing they got rid of the foreign coordinators job and put in lots of new Thai managers, and seem to want to save money in everything.  There is just a lot of confusion and anger now. 

Classes now are always cancelled too, so we can;t even teach our lessons like we planned.  SOme days there are concerts (like today), some days we have a school birthday (last week) where students have nothing to do but we had no classes.  It is like chaos here now.  Seems no one on the administration even has an idea how bad it is.  Why does this happen whenever Thai take over to foreign teachers?

For now, people be careful to apply at this school.  It is not a happy place.  So I hope it can be a great school again for foreign teachers and students like before, but now it seems to be on a real downturn.  I don't even trust most of the guys here now, and the foreigners are almost as bad as the thais.  I am looking for a new job now, and I know many other teachers here are too.  I don't think they can make it better now because too many people have had problems with each other in the last month. Probably they ust have to find all new teachers and be like every other Thai school thant changes teachers every semester.

[ABCzzz]

The school's become a total joke, sadly.  Have to agree with the posted message, tho it sucks.  Place is falling apart.  Running around like chickens with heads cut off - thais and many foreign teachers alike - just pecking away at each other.  Class interruptions, endless meetings, new duties with no pay, want to rework contract, all thai management with some token farangs on committees that will meet in thai..a joke, a sham, a pity.  Name calling, deceit, all out shouting matches, and lots of pointing fingers with no one looking at the man at the top as the real culprit.

Some of the losers at this school who I thought were decent teachers and decent people are just trying to get ahead of others now - no matter the cost.  Kissing butt.  The new EP manager or whatever he is was almost several times last year, so was the other token manager (even more often).  Now they are appointed by thai adminsitrators who know nothing as so called leaders of the program..the EP program..and neither teach English.  Go figure. 

Director says he wants everyone to get along, but thai teachers love to see us falling apart coz they think it makes them look good.  The foreign coor. that basically built the program for 3 years (and hired all of us) was a jerk at times - could be a difficult, arrogant American, demanding and pushy, and often pissed thais off, but he got things done for us.  And he got the best from us.  He made the place more than just a job.  No one here like that now.  Too bad for us..too bad for Potisarn.  Time to move on.  Just wish we could take the kids with us.

[ABCzzz]

That should be new ep representative was almost fired by school...several times, but saved by the coor....as was his co-rep.  Now they are running our meetings and telling us what to do..TIT

[Wazzup?]

As a teacher who interviewed at this school, but took a job at a neighbor school, I am sorry to hear about the school's problems.  I was impressed when I met with the people at the school last April (two thais and a farang who did most of the interview), but there were no more openings at the time in the area I wanted to teach. 
Luckily I accepted work at a school a few kilometers away with an older EP, since I stay in the area, and we actually have a few students who have brothers or sisters at Potisan.  Sounds like the same old story at a school that was able to avoid this kind of misfortune for a long time.  We have our share of problems here too, but foreign teachers just stay away from it all, go to their classes, make the students smile, and get out when the day ends.  Seems that's the only way to do it in this country. 
Would be nice if we could be more than clock-punchers - but they really don't seem to want us to do anything else in this country.  For me, it's ok for now, but long term being completely irrelevant as a person is not what I want to be.   Feel so often they could just go get another one with the right color skin and accent and they wouldn't care as long as we push our paperwork through on time, get to our classes, and the students don't complain too much about us.

[curtcrossley]

A quick comment from the foreign coordinator who recently left this school.  The structure we had in place was sound, and would have helped the school avoid many, but not all, of the recent problems.  At least I think it would have, but who really knows.  We developed our structure over 3 years, by learning from mistakes and looking at other schools whose models didn't work.  The concept of true partenrship in foreign/Thai management was the centerpiece of our program - and was fully embraced by our adminsitration - till all the senior administrators were moved by the Ministry of Education.  It was unique in enabling foreign teachers and the foreign administration to make real decisions and take full responsibility for the program's development over time.  It invested us in the school as part of the community rather than just visitors to a foreign land.  But now this plan has been dumped by the new Thai adminsitration in favor of something that won't rock the boat so much when it comes to the traditional Thai government school way of doing things.

When I left, I presented a 2-year plan for me to stay at the school by adding a foreign Associate Coordinator and an additional (3rd) Assistant Coodinator for Instruction and Evaluation.  (Our staff was slated to expand to nearly 40 total teachers in the coming academic year, so I felt the heavy management structure was justified going forward.)  I also requested salary increases for all teachers - 10-20 % for Filipino staff (who were woefully underpaid as they are at most places) and 10% for every Western teacher going into second term, to reflect the increased responsibilities, professionalism, and significance of the program to the school. The structure and modest salary increases would have enabled us to continue on a strong upward trajectory by ensuring we had quality control in every key area of responsibility, and taking some of the load of of me, as I was feeling buried by the size and growth rate of the program. 

I also proposed a plan to keep the program afloat even if I left (which I said I would do even if structural changes were made but salary concerns were not immediately addressed), by naming a foreign Acting Coordinator, while still adopting the new adminsitrative structure but going through a candidate search to replace me from the outside (or even inside if someone applied). 

The school director flatly rejected both plans, and the proposed salary increases.  In my estimation, since he is a new director, he saw this as a chance to manipulate the structure of the program with no strong foreign leadership to object, basically to appease the Thai teachers at the school who felt left out of our extraordinary success.  he once told us "man over work," which to me means he values people socializing together as "buddies" (another of his terms) more than quality programs.  He still plans to give salary increases, I hear, but will do so with inexperienced Thai teachers evaluating the foreigners and then deciding how much they get.  What a novel approach!

I understand why the new director and his deputies (all of whom are fairly new to the school also) wanted to develop the support of more Thai teachers at the school, but I cannot understand why they would do it at the cost of the quality and progress of the program.  And certainly, all his new plans (which I have been told by teachers there)  simply give largely inexperienced and closed-minded Thai teachers at the school who feel the EP was taking all the glory a chance to get their paws on it.  The new structure the director proposes will further slow things down, put many people with no experience and no English skills in charge of foreign teachers, and effectively eliminate or so dramatically dilute the foreign voice as to make EP teachers mere pawns, as we are at most Thai schools.  Any positive impact from his decision to completely overhaul the structure of the program (including asking teachers to sign entirely new contracts even though their existing ones are perfectly valid) will take years to realize, if it ever happens at all.  In the meantime, the program will muddle along, where it once soared.

The real issue here is not what's happening with the foreign staff quarrels.  As the sometimes arrogant jerk who hired all these teachers, I know every one of them has the ability to do outstanding things for the school in their own ways.  Though they may be showing some human frailty in their current internal quarrels that they would be better off without, in my estimation it is primarily the short-sighted and skewed priorities of a new Thai senior administrative team of the director and 4 deputy directors, none of whom have a shred of experience managing an EP, let alone one this big, that is creating the chaos at the school. 

One has to wonder if they don't just love it, seeing the foreign staff come apart and gloating in their new mindless exercise in power-brokering that has no purpose but to make the bitter civil servant teachers at the school feel they have some minor utility in the school's future progress.  It's really just an effort to stop the Thai teachers from complaining about the administration and start complaining about the foreigners or the quality of the EP like they did when the program started 3 years ago - a pretty astute move on the part of the administration that will reduce the program back to sheer banality or worse.  They just want things to be ok...they don't want things to open anyone's eyes or force anyone to grow out of their shells.  Keep the status quo is better for most Thai adminsitrators because it makes their jobs easier.  Shifting management to dozens of Thai led committees even further dilutes the need for anyone to take responsibility for any failures, while enabling the director to blame others for problems and claim personal vistory for even the smallest successes.

It leaves one to wonder how much the Thai government really cares about the educational quality of their schools when the entire team of all 5 experienced senior administrators (including the director), who together built this program, alongside a real team of foreign teachers, are summarily transferred to other schools in less than 9 months time, and replaced by 5 new senior administrators who barely speak a shred of English, who have never worked with foreigners in this context, and who are more worried about how their new Thai colleagues feel about them than the progress of a very highly regarded program.

[Scuttlebut]

Maybe its right that the senior officials are to blame, but foreign teachers here are feuling it, acting like gorillas stomping on the floor and pounding their chests - and pissing around their desks to mark their territiory.  Sad to see grown male behave like prathom studens..forgetting concern for colleagues or students and staking claim to the moral high ground, whilst deceiving and backstabbing others. The Thais may have started it here, but we give them lots of reasons for not respecting us.  It only takes a couple bad apples to poison us all.   

In fact, hate to say it, but we've two on staff now that aren't qualified to teach regardless of the paperwork; 1 has referred to Thais regularly as monkeys and idiots; the other's so busy eating pastries & reading newspapers his lessons have become the students' bane.  Now they run around the office rattling people with lies & rumors.  If these two would shut up and do their work, the office'd have fewer problems and we'd feel better when we come into work everyday (those who bother to show up for work these days).  In fact, big mouths are the biggest problem here.

[GoingMad]

I have to add, there is one female teacher here (and there's only three on staff) who's equally guilty of being a tattler and gossiper and is full of venom.  She should zip her lips too.  She has threatened and stirred things up enough...her constant temper tantrums and dramas are wearing thin with many of us.  Not good to only say the men are being foolish. 

That said, the real problem is the Admin and director, I'll agree - despite the teachers acting like selfish, childish, spoiled brats and not looking at how good they had it just a while ago, and how their silliness now hurts them.  The admin is the one doing this to us here.  We got to stops being like wounded animals and start being a team again.  The teachers who can't be on the team should find a new place to be and stop making this even messier for the other.

[GoingMad]

Oh and colleagues now all gossiping about who made these posts, and blaming certain people, are doing no good either.  We r a big staff, many people feel upset.  Try to be part of the solution to the problem not the inspector detective.

[curtcrossley]

As noted before, I was at PS for 3 years, most of it as coordinator of the English program. The first 2 years I was there, I laid in bed many nights losing sleep, thinking of the great things we could do and how to do them.  The last year, I laid in bed most nights losing sleep worrying about how to preserve what we were building. 

I have been away from PS a month and slept quite well till this discussion thread got me thinking again.  The core issue here is, "What are the primary motivations of the Thai administration in completely overhauling the management structure of the EP?"  Last night, the question kept me awake.  In an effort to be able to sleep soundly again, I am going to give my thoughts about the answer to the question then walk away from it once and for all.

6 months ago, I could walk into this school director's simple, unadorned office (before then new director came in January and spent half a million baht of EP money to rennovate it), and tell him what we needed to make the program work.  Any teacher there now remembers that the former director nearly always agreed (if he saw good reason behind the request), and almost immediately ordered the Thai staff and others to make it happen.  Literally, I would take a list of requests in and he'd approve 90% of them.  Within days, we'd see things start to happen.

Under the current director, requests were still often met favorably, but with a good old "but we must go slowly" after every yes or maybe answer.  In the meantime, 3 months after the new director arrived, after not a single substantive meeting with me or my teachers, he sent me a new organizational chart that gave me an advisory role and put Thai teachers in charge of 6 committees to manage the English Programs - including everything from academics to facilities to student affairs and PR.  Not a single foreign teacher was included in the plan.  They explained to me they wanted me just to "manage the teachers."  To me, this was an attempt to tell me to just help them keep those wacky foreigners under control.  I rejected the plan, and resigned for the first time.  (Of course, lets not forget this took place while EP generated money was used to fancy up what had been an adequate director's office, and while the new director only rarely even made an appearance at school.)

The second plan came forward in an effort to keep me at the school, with a single foreign teacher placed on 4 of the 6 management committees (a single foreign teacher and 3-4 Thai teachers on every committee - equally weighted?), and me as co-EP project leader with a senior Thai staff member as my equal.  Well, she was my "equal" at least on the chart, but we all know how that plays out in reality.  The fact is, she would have the open door to him, and I'd still have to rely on her to go to him when we wanted things.  When the director is afraid to speak with me because he may lose face (as a former English teacher who can't speak English), she retains the upper hand.  Not to mention, she had 100% budgetary control, where I used to have equal or greater budgetary authority than her.   Small detail right?  I resigned again.  They promised more changes.

A new plan came forward, giving me a half million baht annual budget (of the 40 million the program generates - WOW!) and a bunch of new sturctural promises alongside it. I waited 4 more weeks to see how the new plan played out.  It played out in the form of a new piano for the EP.  The last meeting I had with the director, I said what about the salary increases, the budget, the other structural changes?  He said, literally, "you got the piano very quickly!"  That was the bone he threw to me to show me he cared for us!  With the rest, he said "we must go slowly."  To a couple of requests, he said, "not the Thai way."  I said, very directly, "I have waited a year, and I cannot go any more slowly, so I we must part ways."  With that, my third and final resignation became effective.  8 days later, I packed up and left the school for Issan and many nights of deep sleep. 

My only lingering concerns were for my colleagues and the students.  As for colleagues, I had recruited most of them to the school an felt some duty to do what I could to make the place a good work environment for them.  I feel I did that to the best of my abilities.  Every one of them has the capacity and resume to work elsewhere for far more income, so I decided that worrying for them was misplaced.  I would have held the staff I had up to the staff of any EP program in Thailand, even at a higher paying private school, and been proud.  Sure we had pimples, but as a whole we were a darn good team.

As for students, I've realized in teaching here for nearly 4 years that kids are amazingly resilient.  The kids will be fine.  Most of our EP parents have the capacity to move their kids elsewhere if they really feel the school is not providing the education they want for their children.  I've been told by several parents that will indeed be their course of action.  So, I decided not to worry for the kids too much either.  I think they learn and grow despite the scenario they now face.

So, back to the core issue here, "What are the primary motivations of the Thai administration in completely overhauling the management structure of the EP?"   Remember, now the structure proposed is even more diffuse than the last one proposed to me, and eliminates the foreign manager for the program.  It creates committees to manage every subject, every facet of operation of the program, and has a team of Thais firmly at the top.  Even the advisory board is 90% Thai - with two token foreign teachers.  (By the way, I went to these "advisory board" meetings for a while - they are 99% in Thai, so no foreign voice is really heard.)
 
I am sorry to say, the answer is very clear to me.  It is NOT because they want foreign teachers to have the leading voice in developing the program, as we did for nearly 3 years.  You do not eliminate the foreign manager position and create 8 or 10 committees that are 70%-100% Thai staffed when you want the foreigners to have a voice, or even less an actual stake, in what's happening.  It is a typical "throw a bone" maneuver to appease those of the foreign teachers who can be appeased, and to give the school something to say to the public when criticized, like "What about the piano?" 

The management now have accepted that many teachers will leave.  They have calculated it into their plans.  At my last meeting with the director, the deputy director asked me "How many teachers will leave this semester and at the end of the year?"  (Well, her English is not that good, but that was the gist of it.)  Teachers will leave, and the school will be left with the average foreign teaching staff - we know what that looks like.

3 weeks after I left, an ad appeared on ajarn.com - even with all teaching slots still full.  The administration's strategy now is clearly buy time, make it till the end of the term, then let the pieces fall.  Damage control.  If they can just make it 5 or 6 more weeks, they can claim victory - the semester will have completed uninterrupted with no teachers leaving, and they can clean house and bring in teachers who won't rock the boat or make demands at the end of the term.  The parents won't know teachers have left because it will happen during break.  When the kids come back, 5 or 8 or 10 new teachers will be there to greet them, school will start, and in typical Thai fashion those who left over break will be fading memories. 

I have worked in education for 13 years, and I have seen this tactic 20 times if not a 100 - not only in Thailand but also in the US.  Administrators know dates well...and they know that the average human being only stays focused on any given problem for a short period of time.  Kids have even shorter attention spans.  If they can just buy till the end of term, they they have two months to present a new plan with a bunch of new faces to parents and teachers, and they will be out of the woods.  We did it often at NYU Law, when a student organization was angry about something, we'd delay till the semester was finished and by the time students came back something else had come up to divert their attention elsewhere.  Then we could announce some conciliatory measure that made us look like heroes and all would be ok again till the next round of angry students came along.  That is EXACTLY what is happening here - 'make it till October,' the director and the Thai powers that be are thinking, 'then the parents won't be on our backs if teachers leave, students won't go home complaining, and we can come out next term with something flashy and new to divert attention.'  Sadly, that will probably be an effective tactic.

I am as pained as anyone that this is the truth of what is taking place at this school now - probably more so.  I know and have taught more of the students personally there than any other foreign teacher there - far more.  My dearest Thai friend enrolled her nephew there in the EP this year because of me.  The same is true for 2 private students I taught for years - who are now at PS because of what we had going.  The pain I feel as I see it come apart is real.  I spent 3 years trying to work with my colleagues to make something special. 

It is a real shame that it has come to this, but again I will lay blame squarely at the top - even above the head of the director.  Changing all senior administrators and the school director in a period of 6 or 7 months is a sure fire way to keep the lid on things, to make sure nothing too progressive happens, and to keep lots of civil servants happily pushing papers around in circles while the Thai educational system remains mired in bureaucracy, red tape, stagnant leadership, and militaristic hierarchy with no real concern for the youth of this country.

At the end of this three year saga, I am nearly ready to pack it up and go somewhere else.  Issan is a start, but perhaps next to Taiwan or (gulp) back to the USA - where are least people do have a chance to build real programs and make a difference on a larger level.  If my comments here, or in my column on ajarn.com next week, cause too much controversy and create a bigger flap, then I am ready to pack up and go any minute.  I am sure the director of this school won't be happy about what I have said, nor will the Ministry of Education, but it is the truth.  Or perhaps they'll just ignore it, like they do so much of what foreigners offer.  (Just to be clear, I am not bashing Thailand as a place - it is a beautiful place, with lots of great culture and history, and I have made wonderful Thai friends who I deeply respect and admire.  I am just bashing the bureaucracy that manages the educational system here - thats the entire scope of my commentary.)

For now, I am resigned to believing that in the educational system here, we can only make our difference one by one - with the individual students who we influence, rather than on a larger scale.  And I can do that anywhere, for a lot more money.  For now, I'll stay here and try to make my difference one-to-one.  Perhaps I'll try a university level management position to see if it is any better.  But I realize sadly now that the experence we had at PS for about 2 years was a real rarity in this country, and I am unlikely to find anything like it again here.

[luk ling]

  We did it often at NYU Law, when a student organization was angry about something, we'd delay till the semester was finished and by the time students came back something else had come up to divert their attention elsewhere. 

So it's ok for you to do it, but when the boots on the other foot? A little contradictory, maybe even hypocritical (sp). Don't you think?

I've seen this in Thailand before and I'm not sepo bashing. A lot of US citizens come here with the "in the US", "if we were in the US" etc attitude. Curt, newsflash mate, this is not the US, it never will be. Coming to Thailand with a "Western" work ethic and logic only causes problems. As for PS, maybe you managed to get the EP program running okay, but the rest of the school was an undisciplined hell on earth (2 years ago). How long did you think you'd be able to keep it seperate, bad apples spoiling the barrel and all that.

[curtcrossley]

Hey Luk...

Try reading a bit more carefully!  I never said it was ok to wait/ride out the semester buying time and let the complaints fall away as a result, I just said "we" did it.  Never said I agreed with it either.  I was part of the administration there (at NYU), so I used "we" to fairly and squarely put myself into the group of those culpable by way of association. 

That admitted, I never said that I personally planned or executed the delay tactics.  I was simply honorable enough to take some of the blame in my post here by virtue of the fact that I was part of the administrative team when it happened.  I did not agree with it as a tactic then, and I don't agree with it at a tactic at PS now.  No hypocrisy or contradiction whatsoever, mate.

And I never said "if we were in the US" either, mate.  I simply said, if you read carefully, that Western logic and a western work ethic worked for the EP for a couple years, then it began to collapse due to the militaristic hierarchical structure and whacked policies of the MOE.  I ultimately conculded that if I want to do it the Western way, I'll have to go back West!  Think that is exactly what I said.  Thanks for agreeing with me mate!

By the way, I have been here nearly 4 years Luk, and I have enjoyed most of it.  I rarely complain about my host country, and am grateful to be able to spend time living and enjoying most of life here.  I am fortunate to have made great friends and have learned a lot, personally and professionally.  I am not at all whining, or saying if we were in the US all of life would be rosy.  I am just accepting the fact that the tactics I used to build a program here won't work here over the long term, and if I want them to, I'll have to go back.  Simple as that, mate!

[El Tel]

Judging by the standard of English used in the above posts, there seems to be many non-native speakers stirring the pot.

[Uncle Che]

I think anyone who stays in Thailand more than a couple of years and earns their living in Thailand has a right to state their opinions on the way things are done.

[Mods-Rockers]

Maybe the right to state Che but do we have the right to demand?

[Just Do It, Baby]

The real problem is expectations, baby.  Just do your teaching and get out of the place.  We have too many people here at PS who try to "do it" the way that CC did - they need to stop trying to make a difference and just teach the classes.  Give 'em a little English, throw a few vocab words their way, sing a few songs, play a gfew games, and go home and forget about it when the day ends.  That's all they want!  Don't you all get it??  Then, on the weekend, have a few beers, have some fun, and start the week again with your mind clear of the crap. 

We just got too many [bigoted labels removed, largely anti-liberal] at Potisarn now.  If they want to change the world, they should go back to their own countries and start there.  If you come to Thailand to teach, you are not here as a social activist, you are here to give the kids some time to practice speaking English with a native (not non-native, in my opinion) speaker.  THAT'S ALL!  NOTHING MORE!  You aren't here to be anything more than someone for kids to practice the langauge with!  Quit being so idealistic - them just ain't the facts here in Thailand, baby!

CC wanted to create some social agenda here, teach global issues and help Thai kids understand the world, save the hungry and needy, employ the U.N.'s range of nationalities as English teachers, and act as if non-native speakers are as valuabe to Thai students as native speakers are. 

Even thinking of the number of times he complained that non-native speakers should be paid the same as us was just so overboard.  He whined more about non-natives low salaries than even they do!  They are from this continent - Asian, and their first language is not English!  The Thais want NATIVE speakers for their kids to practice with - and want them in EVERY subject we teach.  That is what the Thais WANT, so quit trying to tell em they should practice English for the money THEY PAY the school with non-native speakers!  If they wanted non-native speakers to practice English with, they have them in the Thai teachers!  They might as well just hire a Thai to practice English with if non-native is the only option, at least teh Thais can control the classes, talk to the parents int heir language, and stay around for more than a year or two.  Not to mention they are half the price of even a Philippino or Indian. 

If they'd all just chill out, collect their money and leave work at work -- the whole lot of em -- we'd all be fine here.  I read what Luk Ling said in another post, and I agree teach to the few who want to learn, let the other kids sleep in the back of the room, enjoy the country and the rather comfortable amenities of being a foreigner here, and let the Thais fix things they think are broken.  They decided to put 50-60 students in a class, not us.  If they don't think it's broken, it ain't your right to tell em it is.  Just do the job, baby.