Topic: Student feedback/evaluations

[El Tel]

I attended the mentioned meeting on June 21st, which was to show him the student feedback forms on his teaching performance.Everyone teaching at the school is monitored in this way, myself included.

Am I the only one here that has a problem with students evaluating the teachers?
Surely it should be the other way round.
Students evaluating teachers is simply unfair and is open to abuse. Very unprofessional and reeks of a poularity contest and pandering to the students.
We all know what kind of atmosphere that creates.

Also, teachers having to discipline unruly students would receive lower scores. Pointless exercise!
Teachers should be observed and evaluated by their manager/co-ordinator or someone who's qualified to do so.

[bangjock]

Am I the only one here that has a problem with students evaluating the teachers?
Surely it should be the other way round.

 ^^^^What's the problem with this? Student feedback is a key part of teacher evaluation and development. How can you improve yourself as a teacher if you don't get responses from your students?

I actively encourage all my students to give me feedback, on every aspect of my teaching. Sometime ago, I started to use powerpoint to aid my teaching. After the first class I circulated a feedback form.

I recently employed a new teacher, the first people that I wanted feedback from were his students.

Students will always evaluate the teacher, whether it be through their peers, parents, home-room teacher, school-diary or an evaluation form, what's the difference?

I was terminated without cause 48 hours after receiving a 38 of a possible 42 on my evaluation.  It was at a "Hall of Shame School."  So these are just some of the tools they can use to breach their contract with you.  If they want you out, for whatever reason, they can do it

 ^^^^This however is just ridiculous, how on earth could a school have justification to terminate a teacher for such a good score.

[Ronaldo]

I have to agree with BJ's comment 'for' the positive aspects of students feedback, since we should already already be collecting student feedback at the end of semester using questionnaires and student group interviews (they do where I work), but unfortuantely it is usually collected too late to allow staff to respond by implementing changes to improve the teaching of the students offering the feedback.

Teachers who would like to be able to monitor their teaching during the semester in order to act immediately to improve their teaching might find that the collection of student feedback during the semester a useful strategy (something we are starting to do with the assistance of management and student body). As with all aspects of feedback and evaluation of teaching, it is useful to draw upon a range of different yet complementary sources of data (your call on how and what that data might be).

While formal feedback strategies can be adapted to collect feedback during the semester, there are a range of strategies suitable for gathering informal feedback from students. Perhaps the most obvious way is to ask the students questions directly. If classes are small and interactive and there is mutual trust and respect on the part of the students and teachers, then posing questions directly to a class may be feasible. However, there is no scope for anonymity of student responses and some students may feel uncomfortable voicing less popular opinions in such a public manner.

However, there is a fine line between the correct application of receiving student feedback in a professional manner and the blatant abuse that can be fostered by both other teachers, manangement and students but all-in-all it is a constructive exercise if approached correctly by all parties and therein is the single most destructive aspect, as we have read from previous posters.

[NukeThemSlowly]

Student feedback can be valuable IF:

1.  The feedback is not the primary evaluation of a teacher's ability (which should be made by another teacher or teaching supervisor)
2.  The teacher is told before he starts that he will be evaluated and on what general categories
3.  The students are not given any notion that their opinion will result in hiring/firing decisions about a teacher
4.  The feedback is not actually the main component of any hiring/firing decisions about a teacher
5.  The results are discussed in detail with each teacher, both positive and negative comments, and not "cherry-picked" for negative comments to attack an enemy of the administrator

I think that most schools in Thailand probably don't use it this way.

[Bangkok Phil]

I attended the mentioned meeting on June 21st, which was to show him the student feedback forms on his teaching performance.Everyone teaching at the school is monitored in this way, myself included.

Am I the only one here that has a problem with students evaluating the teachers?

No Tel, I'm with you all the way. I've always been a fierce opponent of student surveys and careful research down the years has taught me that more often than not students don't understand the questions they are being asked. Common questions I've seen on surveys include "was the teacher prepared?" (I've asked dozens of students how they would recognise a 'prepared' teacher and not one has ever given me a decent answer) Even when questions are translated into Thai on the actual survey, the translations can be ropey.
My favorite question is "was the teacher smart?"
I've gone into classes dressed like a Hugo Boss window dummy and scored 'fair' and I've gone into classes with tie loosened and scored 'excellent'. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. OK we all know when a teacher looks like Worzel Gummidge but if he does then he shouldn't be there anyway.

I think surveys serve a purpose inasmuch as they can indicate when something is radically wrong such as 30 students out of 30 all saying that the teacher sucks, but out of 30 students there will always be 20% who don't like you that much. It's the way the world works.

[Harry]

No Tel, I'm with you all the way. I've always been a fierce opponent of student surveys and careful research down the years has taught me that more often than not students don't understand the questions they are being asked. Common questions I've seen on surveys include "was the teacher prepared?" (I've asked dozens of students how they would recognise a 'prepared' teacher and not one has ever given me a decent answer).

1) I can recall taking part in scores of student surveys over the years, although not admittedly in the field of EFL. Upon completion of a number of training courses in the UK & US it is customary to be asked to complete a feedback form of some description. Questions posed may include some of the following; 'The instructor was enthusiastic', 'The instructor was patient', The instructor was supportive and encouraging' or the instructor knew his stuff. Then one gets to select from the following 'Very Strongly agree Strongly agree Agree Disagree Strongly Disagree Very Strongly disagree'. My point being that part of any teachers assessment should imo, include the opionions of the students as well, as it is in many otter countries & professions. It provides some kind of balance, don't you think... if done correctly.
 
2) If the students don't understand the survey questions then I suggest that's the fault of either a) The survey author or b) The English teachers who are supposed to be teaching the students English 

Now, a recent dissapointing experience of mine. 

I was asked by a BKK school to do a 30 min. demo lesson (not directly TEFL related as such), which I agreed to & made arrangements to return the following working day. So I spent a couple of hours putting together two A4 worksheets, which included the lesson & some additional fun stuff for them to take away & try out in their own time. I also put together a nice A4 lesson plan, something I never usually do for this subject, but I wanted to make the right impression. Arrived at school early & did some photocopying, got to the class & did a bit of setup. Students arrived but no school official was to be seen. So I introduced myself & my purpose in being there, then kicked off with a warmer (what they got up to at the weekend), in the meantime I sent a student to track down the people who were supposed to be checking me out. The word came back that everyone was too busy to attend & that they'd let the students assess me (M3's as I recall), naturally I was disappointed to say the least but I stoically continued. I ended up doing about an hour as none seemed the least bit interested in either me or the class, in the end I had to end it myself & leave the students to their own devices.

Now I think I did quite well, all things being equal. I did hear back from the Thai female DOS, who told me that the students rated me as only 'ok', they didn't rave about me were her words & one comment was that I apparantly didn't do enough board work with them, rather too much practical it would seem for their liking. Hell, I though 30 minutes, a quite explanation, questions then get on with it & monitor/review etc. as appropriate. I wasn't expecting to do a fulll period of formal teaching 

Still I suppose one must remember that TIT 

[NamTok]

   I taught at a bilingual school in Bangkok where secondary students reported on the farang teachers to the Thai homeroom teachers, each one. The reporting was done each week during weekly, general, all-farang staff meeting. During the weekly farang staff meetings Thai teachers met with the students in each classroom. The reporting was done clandestinely, secretly (not any more) and wholey without the knowledge of the farang teachers, except for the farang hierarchy. Secondary students could say anything they wanted to say about their farang teachers. The Thai teachers duly related the students' reports to the Thai hierarchy which, in turn, reported it to the farang hierarchy with instructions. Thai teachers added their own feelings and thoughts about any farang teacher to the Thai hierarchy.

   This unprofessional and outrageous practice continues to this day but to a lesser  extent than of, say, 4 years ago. Students now are more restricted in what they can say about the foreign teacher. The Thai teacher is more limited in what he/she can say as well.

   This practice of course hasn't anything to do with the question concerning formal, legitimate evaluations by students of their foreign teachers. Further, such formal and legitimate evaluations are impossible in an EFL setting and shouldn't ever be done.

   Some student feedback in respect to a foreign teacher can be helpful and positive. For example, one student advised me that I used the third person pronouns too often (they, them, he, she, it etc) so I consciously changed that to make a greater use of the specific names of persons, places and things. I considered the student's friendly and polite statement to be a positive and helpful point to make to me. However, students secretly reporting on foreign teachers is an unacceptable practice. It undermines the farang teacher complely. Once I found out about the practice I began to realize how destructive the behind-the-back reporting system was to all the farang teachers.

   The upshot of the reporting system is that, effectively, the students ran the secondary school. Has anyone else ever heard of or experienced this kind of "sneak attack" reporting system?

[Ronaldo]

Quote from NamTok - The upshot of the reporting system is that, effectively, the students ran the secondary school. Has anyone else ever heard of or experienced this kind of "sneak attack" reporting system?

Yes, this certainly is a problem that I have witnessed whilst teaching at schools in Bangkok, but far from being a 'sneak attack' as you suggest, my experience has been that students are often blatant informers of often slanderous and serious accusations that seem to be taken as true by management, each and every time a student opens their mouth fireworks seem to follow with the resultant unpleasantness.

Student's therefore, often run the school and by this virtue enforce a divide and conquer technique that creates an air of suspicion between foreign and indigenous educators. Do student's do this knowingly or is it the underlying culture of the country to be an informer is any one's guess.

[NamTok]

   So now I see that students running a school with an EP or with a bilingual orientation is done at more than one school in Bangkok---apparently many more than one school---and, that whether it's done secretly or openly varies among the schools. Neither approach is acceptable, nor is the fact of students reporting on farang teachers. The secret approach is the more subtle and less confrontational; it has less tumult and rancor than the open slandermongering that you, Ronaldo, describe. Such reporting is strongly onerus and absurdly destructive of the very purpose of a school having farang teachers.

[Ronaldo]

NamTok, I agree with you that neither approach is acceptable, however if done correctly student feedback can assist educators like ourselves to a better job, however I often dispair of that ever happening after experiencing many of the pitfalls of Thai schools, where it seems farang hunting is a major sport and often condoned by both colleagues of origin and foreigners.

So, are student feedback surveys and  the like suitable, given the responses on this thread one must come to conclusion that they are not for the many reasons given, which seems a shame as it does seem to continue the prevalence of 'them & us'.

Sad really, don't you think?

[samvimes]

Teacher evaluation in businesses is fine
Teacher evaluation in universities is fine to a certain extent

But student evaluation of teachers in schools is just a possible way to get back at the teacher by vindictive students who don't understand what education is or should be.

If schools force teacher evaluation they should let the teachers evaluate the administration too.

[SusanRichardson]

I've always been a fierce opponent of student surveys and careful research down the years has taught me that more often than not students don't understand the questions they are being asked.

The timing of the survey matters as well. Last school year, they "forgot" to give them out until after the very last final exam hour/day. 6th period, just as the students thought summer was here, forms given out to them to complete in detail. Needless to say, some teachers were rated poor. Susan

[NamTok]

Ronaldo et al,

Yes, I agree that the extant methods and systems of students "reporting" against farang teachers is sad and, further, self-destructive to the schools and the purpose of having farang teachers.

I did see some success with the surveying of senior secondary students at a school where I taught over a period of years. An administrator prepared a questionnaire which was translated into Thai and given to Grades 12 and 11 (M6 & M5). The questionnaire focused on what students thought of the farang teachers in general, which is an important and more positive approach than students evaluating or ratting on each individual farang teacher, whether openly of clandestinely.

Examples of the questions, which numbered 50 I think, are:

   *Should the foreign teacher ever speak Thai in the classroom (Something like 80% of students responded in the negative as I recall);
   *Should there be more group work (A huge "yes" response);
   *Would you rather the foreign teacher lecture or assign tasks to do in class (A 50-50 split on this one, which could seem to contradict the previous example presented);
   *Should there be more writing assignments (A huge positive response, but one needs to know the school had shifted heavily to concentrating on speaking skills and the students' writing skills did suffer);
   *Should you be asked more questions, or is the number of questions you are asked in class about right? (Largely "about right" response);
   Etc.

So we see a valid method of seeking and obtaining valuable student input in respect to the methods and techniques foreign teachers IN GENERAL employ--or might, or should, employ--at the school. Or, at least I think this is a valid approach toward the desired, positive and helpful goal. Notably absent from the survey were any questions about specific foreign teachers or what students thought about a teacher or teachers of a particular subject or subjects (Is your English/Science/Social Science/Maths teacher a good teacher? Do you like your...teacher? Does your .....teacher dress well? Etc)

I have a copy of the questionnaire and the results but just relocated my residence and have yet to fully unpack and get organized. I can post more examples or the entire project, if anyoe is interested, but only after I get reorganized at my new place.

So, what do you think of such a survey method?

[monkey woods]

Isn't this just a cheap way of doing what the school should be doing itself - proper teacher evaluation?

Or are the student evaluations used in conjunction with other evaluations made by school staff?


Either way, it seems the school has a lot of faith in the students' ability to objectively evaluate a teacher's ability to teach.

[Mods-Rockers]

It also seems that the majority of teachers have little faith in the abilities of their students, Remember chaps we are there to get them to start thinking objectively and thus be able to do it. if we are saying that they cannot do it we are also saying that we failed to teach them!

[NamTok]

monkey woods & Mods-Rockers,

The project was independently done by a particular administrator who holds an MEd and decided to pursue a lightly researched matter, ie, how senior secondary students of ESL perceive the ways in which they receive education in the English language from farang teachers and in other major subjects in the English language, also taught by farang teachers. The research of course was of Thai learners at a bilingual school in Bangkok. The researcher pretty much focused on the classroom experience of the students, which is to say he did not research other factors such as socio-economic and cultural status of the students and their families.

The researcher made his findings available to the school, which sort of nodded and in effect said something like "later." I was and continue to be excited by the research. The administrator had the purpose of publishing the results and altho he and I have maintained some contact since I left the school I don't know if he's found a publisher--I'll ask him.

One of the most exciting aspects of the research project is that senior secondary students were asked (50) questions translated into Thai about the education they received from farang teachers IN GENERAL. Students were asked, IN GENERAL, how well they thought they were taught, learned, studied, were motivated to learn academic English as well as learning all other subjects in the English language, taught by farangs. So, Mods-Rockers, I couldn't agree with you more that the research presents each and every farang teacher with information about the efficacy of our teaching, to include philosophy, methods, techniques, approaches; our rapport with students, rapport being an important factor in motivating students to learn. Nothing in the research could be detected to a particular teacher or subject taught, which is important. Why? With the focus on the GENERAL effectiveness of the foreign faculty, the overall quality of teaching could be examined without any teachers worrying or wondering if direct consequence might visit upon them.

So the research project operated outside of the structure of the school's own system of evaluation of teachers. Consequently, the project did not have the impediment of the inherent quirks and/or contradictions such evaluations by schools can have. What do I mean by that? During my first year at the school the secondary coordinator was a primary teacher who'd never taught secondary students in Thailand. Yet, having an MEd himself, he spent the final of his three years at the school and Thailad in the position of secondary coordinator to embellish his resume upon his return to his native country. He spent much time sitting in classrooms observing secondary teachers. We received his evaluation report and were invited to write a few lines of reaction at the botom of the sheet. I wrote that, with all due respect of the man's experience and academic credentials, he was lost as an evaluator in the secondary department, which he in fact was. So schools' evaluators and their systems vary due to many reasons. The research project by the administrator several years later yielded much more valuable results in their depth and scope.

Mods-rockers, what do you think of the fact the questionnaire was translated into Thai.I believe it facilited the efficacy of the project, altho an argument certainly could be made that the questionnairs be presented to the students in English.

[monkey woods]

I may be wrong, but I don't think similar evaluations are carried out in schools in England. That may have something to do with the state of education and the way it is perceived by learners, and the way (countless, needless) surveys are perceived by the population in general. In the average English classroom, I reckon, such a survey would be a fiasco. All kinds of false indicators would be produced.

Is it not the same in Thailand? Won't the kids tailor their responses to gain the desired effect? If they like a teacher, surely they will say positive things about him/her and, if they don't, they won't. Doesn't it boil down to just that?

I guess, because I imagine it's that simple, there must be something I don't understand about it. 

[NamTok]

monkey woods, we're talking about a survey of ESL students who are taught by farang teachers of several nationalities and by, I overlooked pointing out, some Filippino teachers. In this survey, the learners are native to their own country and language while the foreign teachers are resident aliens imported as it were for the specific purpose of teaching English to the locals.

Of course such a survey isn't done in the UK--nor is it done in the US--as most learners in native English-speaking countries are native born to the particular country. The particular ESL survey I discuss broadly is not appropriate in the UK or the US etc. The UK and the US and other native English speaking countries do have programs of English language instruction for immigrants and for naturalized citizens, and do have evaluations of those programs, which is another matter.

While I've stated on this thread that I absolutely oppose evaluation of individual foreign teachers in an ESL setting such as Thailand, I do like the GENERALIZED approach the particular administrator at my former school took, ie, a general questionnaire concerning ESL learning and teaching. Taking the GENERALIZED approach depersonalizes the evaluation, thus substantially precluding the ESL learners' evaluating a farang teacher based on such other possible considerations as the teacher's personality, habits of attire, gives or doesn't give permission to go to the toilet during class or exams etc.   

[monkey woods]

Yep, I know what you mean. I just meant that, although the students and teachers are of the same nationality in England, no student surveying of teachers went on - or so I thought. It just seems an altogether crazy idea to have your charges comment on your own performance, when, as we all know, in a country like Thailand, some things tend to count against you.


On your other point about 'taking the generalised approach and depersonalising the evaluation', couldn't, and wouldn't, this result in, in the event of a poor overall evaluation, good teachers being dragged down to the levels of not-so-good teachers?


Soz for appearing so dim.

[NamTok]

monkey woods,
   In the US many univesities provide for student evalations of individual faculty. The results of the evaluations are released to the faculty after final exams are graded and reported. Certain public (government, state) secondary schools have students evaluate faculty individually under the same arrangements. I don't know about evaluations among other English-speaking peoples.

The generalized approach using a questionnaire is a formal approach and but one approach to evaluating faculty. Students speak informally to both Thai and farang teachers about other teachers. For example, one brand new, young farang teacher was so awful, miserable, in the classroom that a great number of the teacher's Thai students that I did not have in any of my classes aproached me and did so repeaedly for almost two months after the particular school year began, asking me to whatever I could to help to effect the removal of the teacher from the classroom. Nothing worked until students spoke to their parents--and spoke forcefully. Alarmed parents called the school in force. The teacher then was removed from the classroom.

So not much is lost by having formal, GENERALIZED student evaluations of farang teaching and student learning in ESL lessons and instruction. The grapevine contintues to exist and effectively so.