Topic: Non-native English speakers teaching, a problem or not?

[bangjock]

Can we say that the Americans, Kiwis, South Africans, Irish, Scottish, and Canadians are non-native English speakers?

No.

Can we say that they don't a Thames valley RP accent, yes.

[hero]

d_g you make some good points, it is always a most interesting debate IMO.  Unfortunately it is a debate that often gets clouded to become a bitter war of words between native and non-native speaking teachers - words like "racist" get thrown around without a real appreciation of what is meant by it.

What do you think we are implying if we say that "native speakers" are the best ones to teach this language? Are we saying that these students can never be as fluent as the native speakers?

There are a great number of people that believe this to be case (among many employers here in Thailand this is a long held belief), dismissing them as "racist" doesn't further the debate at all, it shows ignorance of what is an important issue in the EFL world.

To spin it the other way, are you suggesting that English learners are capable of surpassing native speakers of English in English ability under the tuition of non-native speakers of English?

As ever it remains a very interesting debate and one I can't make up my mind on, I hear both arguments, I have worked with native and non-native speakers good and bad.  I see roles that I believe are more suited to native speakers, and then a non-native speaker with excellent linguistic skills will prove me wrong.  I have seen non-native speakers that are excellently prepared and good teachers only for a student to say "I can't understand!"

As ever, I'm sitting on the fence on this one - one thing is for sure though, god teachers are invariably better than bad ones!

[dorian_gray]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

Yes, students can be better than their teachers. Expecting that your students will not become better than you are is like hiring a 100-baht sex worker to give you a hand job.

I believe the world is moving forward and not backward. We are supposedly becoming better than the people before us. Or are we all retards here? But then I digress...

The people in this forum and other forums are a minority. The real world is out there and there are some educational institutions that treat all their teachers (Filipino, Australian, Indian, American, British) fairly. I am willing to show it to you guys. Just drop me a line.

Remember: I am not a recruiter. I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

[hero]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

There are "racial prejudices" engrained in Thai culture (and all other cultures for that matter), there is no doubt about.  However, I think to dismiss the practice of licensing native-speaker teachers more readily than non-natives as simply "racist" shows a lack of understanding of the bigger picture.  As I mentionned before, it is by no means a small number of people (not only Thais and not only school administrators) that genuinely believe that native-speakers make better English teachers, others disagree - it is a matter of some debate.

We know which side of the mast you have your colours nailed to, as I have said before I rest on the fence and have observed both sides.

I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

Me too, racial prejudices and stereotypes are horrible wherever they raise their heads.  However, I don't believe that this is purely a case of "racism" - there are many other important issues at stake.  I'm not a linguistics expert, just a teacher, and don't profess to fully understand all of these issues - there are compelling arguments for and against!

Yes, students can be better than their teachers. Expecting that your students will not become better than you are is like hiring a 100-baht sex worker to give you a hand job.

Not really!

I believe the world is moving forward and not backward. We are supposedly becoming better than the people before us. Or are we all retards here? But then I digress...

You do digress ..... into waters that appear cloudy at best as far as I'm concerned ..... ?

[dorian_gray]

I shall be literal here: if you think your students are not capable of knowing more than you (as teachers) then you have failed as a teacher. In my opinion, a great teacher sees an unlimited potential in her/his student.

I do not use my students to feel superior.

[hero]

I'll be honest with you dorian_gray, I believe that you are finding it difficult to keep an open mind here!

We are discussing the merits/demerits and reasons for the preference of native over non-native speakers, grand statements like this have no place in this discussion.....

If you think your students are not capable of knowing more than you (as teachers) then you have failed as a teacher. In my opinion, a great teacher sees an unlimited potential in her/his student.

If you think that students of a second language can surpass the ability of their teacher on the strength of what they learn in the classroom then you are living in a dreamworld.  To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Yes, we can teach our children to be learners and that will enable them all to hopefully achieve their full potential.  I can never hope that any of my (very very bright) M5 students will surpass my English ability from their lessons - but I really hope I motivate them to excel in English and allow themselves the benefit of studying abroad and improving further.

Do I think that native speakers necessarily achieve this over non-native speakers, absolutely not - I have never and will never make such a comment.  You clearly believe very strongly that the opposite is true.

You clearly believe that the motivation for the policy in Thailand of preferring native speakers is racially motivated, I only stated that I didn't think it was so cut and dry.

The old argument, "native vs. non-native speakers - who is best?" is as old as the hills and one that I will not be drawn into.

I do not use my students to feel superior.

Huh?

[monkey woods]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

I read this several times. Too many double negatives for my liking. Did you mean:

a) try being non-white and holding a passport that has not been issued by (the authorities in) Oz, US, UK, Canada etc?

b) try being non-white and not holding a passport that was issued somewhere other than Oz, US, UK, Canada etc?
    (in which case, you needn't worry - you're not holding a passport from a non-native English speaking country.)

c) try being non-white?

d) try, against the odds, to hold a conversation with native speakers of English whilst desperately attempting to retain your lucidity?

I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

See what I mean? ...not very much qualified...stone the crows!

[bangjock]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

I think you are missing the point. Granted, teachers from the Philippines, India and wherever may be fluent in English and qualified teachers, but you are not native speaking English teachers.

Non native English speaking teachers may have problems with pronunciation, structure, rythmn, connected speech and idiom.

On my program, only native speakers are accepted, due to the above. This isn't based on racism, it's based on ability.