Topic: Non-native English speakers teaching, a problem or not?

[Harry]

Would it be fair to say that a majority of schools employ non-native English speaking teachers in their regular English or (EEP) Extended English programmes? EEP - Where they teach a variety of subjects (Maths, Science, Computers etc.) to the students in English.

I taught at a school recently where there was a Korean who spoke American English teaching English, a Lithuanian who spoke quite poor English teaching Computers, a Thai who spoke American English teaching Science (last year he was teaching English), & an Indian who spoke English... learnt apparently at International schools in the LoS teaching Science (last year she taught english & computers). This was out of a compliment of approx. 8 foreign teachers.

Personally I care not a jot that non-native English speaking teachers are being employed by the schools, if the schools want to employ them then that's their business. But if I were a parent who'd paid a fair whack of money each term to put my kid in an EP programme, I'd feel rather cheated to say the least, wouldn't you?

Is the hiring of non-native English speaking teachers becoming more or less prevalent? What problems, if any, do you see for such a policy?

[hero]

My experiences and opinions:

Private schools hire non-native speakers (white Europeans) where they cannot get native speakers merely to satisfy the "white face" requirement of the paying parents.  Unfortunately, when there is an abundance of native-speakers around these non-native speakers can be treated very badly.  A guy I knew was even dismissed for being a non-native speaker, despite the fact that this was most clear when he was recruited

Different schools have different requirements of their teachers.  Some schools will employ better-qualified non-native speakers (generally Filipino or Indian) feeling they are better able to the job - IMO they are probably correct in this.  Other schools prefer poorly qualiified native speakers for the same jobs.  Again where private schools are concerned this often depends on the parents - some bigotted Thai parents will pay more to have a farang teach their kids than a Filipino or Indian - clearly this is a horrible prejudice!

I think it's important to distinguish between conversational EFL teachers and EP teachers here.  I would prefer to have a native speaker teaching conversational English to my kids.  In all other subjects I would want the best equipped for the job.  If they were using English language textbooks then they must be able to understand and teach the material - simple really!

I observe a lot of prejudice against non-native speakers of English from both parents (let's not forget that Thailand features pretty low on the scale of English ability, maybe there's a bit of jealousy here that particularly their Asian neighbours are better able to teach English than them) and native speaker teachers (some teachers would have the doors closed to non-native speakers, not sure why).  The combination of these effects is to have a lot of negativity towards non-native speakers who after all are working just as hard as native speakers, for the same reasons and often for less money!

A teacher is a teacher IMO.  If people don't see it that way and see it as a question of race then that says more about them than anyone else IMO.

[bangjock]

From my own experience, it really comes down to the school. At my school, there is not a problem having two or three non-native English teachers on the regular program, teaching English. They would prefer not to, but it is a question of $$$.

On the more prestigious English Program this is not an option and, as such, we have found it very difficult to find suitably qualified, native-speaker math and science teachers.

Two years ago, science was taught by a very-well qualified Filipino teacher, however, the students found her accent hard to understand. The following year, an agency supplied a much less qualified native speaker.

Despite the fact that he couldn't teach, he was still prefered as a) he was a European and b) he was a native speaker; albiet from Newcastle, but his command of bar-beer 'bamboo' English was astounding.

Personally, I have to agree with Hero, but the underlying prejudice against non-Caucasian teachers will always be lurking under the bright Thai smiles.

Incidentally, the best English speaking Thai teacher that I ever worked with had studied in India, and spoke with a bit of an Indian accent. That was never an issue though.

[Dumbo]

The only problem I have with non-natives are the ones who think they are better than native teachers by using excuses like, oh I don't go out and drink so that makes me better than all the farang teachers. Put a sock in it.

The best teacher is a well qualified teacher who puts out a great English lesson every time. I have yet to see a non-native speaker be able to do it. They put out ok lessons and be well qualified. It is tradeoff, a non-native teacher offers a cheaper price at the expense of English quality. They attempt to decrease that tradeoff by claiming to be more moral, more qualified, more everything, but in this business, and it is a business, schools are selling English education and non-native teachers have lower English abilities. Plain and simple.

[MrQ]

Interesting one.

My experience of non-native speakers this far has been very negative . Which sadly has clouded my judgement of a vast majority of them.

A local Catholic school has nearly all non-native speakers now (one alky white guy who was fired but they were so desperate they hired him back after four years) . It's like little Manila down that part of town. The school lost all of it's natives because they treated them like non-natives, removing air-fair bonuses etc because they didn't get it.

If I was a rich mummy or daddy forking out for an EP program  would expect my child to learn from a suitable native speaker.

Even our leuk-krung who spent 50 odd years in America has problems with his pronounciation.

[Harry]

Even our leuk-krung who spent 50 odd years in America has problems with his pronounciation.

Did you mean: pronunciation   

[SusanRichardson]

schools are selling English education and non-native teachers have lower English abilities. Plain and simple.

Do you agree with the statement I read or wrote, saying non-native speakers did not have the ability to actually THINK in English therfore could not realy convey what something means in English any better than a Thai teacher who spoke and read English at an average level? So, the persons conclusion was that thinking in English as well as speaking it had some value? Susan

[dorian_gray]

Race has nothing to do with being able to teach English (whether grammar or conversational). To prefer someone for a specific task just because of his race or ethnicity is prejudice.

Some people do not know they are racist and some people do and are proud of it.

There are two official languages used in the Philippines and they are used everyday especially in the capital. These are Filipino and English. It is not a question of having a native language in this country because most people grew up in a bilingual environment. Plus in the provinces, it is not uncommon to find people who are fluent in three languages (their dialect, Tagalog and English).

[hero]

To prefer someone for a specific task just because of his race or ethnicity is prejudice.

And not very nice, to boot!

[monkey woods]

Race has nothing to do with being able to teach English (whether grammar or conversational). To prefer someone for a specific task just because of his race or ethnicity is prejudice.

Some people do not know they are racist and some people do and are proud of it.

I didn't think I was racist, but I may have to have a re-think after reading your post. You see, I assumed that someone from, say, the Home Counties, might be better suited to teach conversational English to Thai children than a person from, say, Manila. I base this assumption solely on authenticity.

Am I racist?

[hero]

In the nicest possible way! 

To prefer someone for a specific task just because of his race or ethnicity is prejudice.

But to prefer someone because they are better equipped for the job is normal procedure.  This is where the argument gets muddled.  I have no problem at all with schools saying "native speakers only" in an advertisement, that's not racist!

[Mods-Rockers]

In the nicest possible way! 

To prefer someone for a specific task just because of his race or ethnicity is prejudice.

But to prefer someone because they are better equipped for the job is normal procedure.  This is where the argument gets muddled.  I have no problem at all with schools saying "native speakers only" in an advertisement, that's not racist!

I have often found it easier to understand a filipeno (sp) that it is to understand  people from the north east of England, or from swampsville GA. "native speakers only" may not be racist but it is certainly discrimatory ((sp again) sorry chaps the grey stuff is kinda fruited up right now). There is a strong case that can be put forward that all TESOL teachers should have either a TOEFL or IELT’s qualification to prove they have the requisite knowledge, I seem to remember that about 2 years ago the Japanese version of the MOE did a sample poll and found that over 70% of TEFL teachers in Japan could not score above 550 in TOEFL which is pretty damning really.

[monkey woods]

I have often found it easier to understand a filipeno (sp) that it is to understand  people from the north east of England, or from swampsville GA.

No argument there. Especially Geordies! But I wouldn't expect that anyone would hire a broad Geordie, Scouser, Scot, Welshman or Brummie unless the learners wanted to mimic one of those accents. Thais generally want to learn Standard English with as much RP as they can muster. It's not going to happen very often with any teacher, much less a Filipino (or Cornishman). 

[hero]

Of course, the primary point here is not whether non-native speakers can do the job.  I believe they often do it more effectively than native speakers, they understand the problems and have related experiences and often are superb linguists.  However, if a school sells programs to parents on the understanding that their child will be taught by a native English speaker (because that's what they want), then all the English ability in the world does not make a non-native speaker qualified for that job.

I could tell the story of the guy who tried to get me to work for 300Bt an hour, I told him about a Western-educated middle-aged married-to-a-Thai very-experienced-in-TEFL mother-of-two non-native-speaker looking-for-a-bit-of-work-to-amuse-herself (Filipina) teacher who would be perfect.  He refused as it "wasn't a good look for his school" and "he could do it himself for less money" (his English was average - for an M3 student!)

It's a question of supply and demand really I believe.

Comments?

[dorian_gray]

First of all, I did not mention any names when I said someone in this thread is racist.

Who speaks authentic English anyway? The Americans? The Aussies? Or is it only the English people? Can we say that the Americans, Kiwis, South Africans, Irish, Scottish, and Canadians are non-native English speakers?

What do you think we are implying if we say that "native speakers" are the best ones to teach this language? Are we saying that these students can never be as fluent as the native speakers?

By the way, I have had French and German students already and I am a 100% Filipino.

[bangjock]

Can we say that the Americans, Kiwis, South Africans, Irish, Scottish, and Canadians are non-native English speakers?

No.

Can we say that they don't a Thames valley RP accent, yes.

[hero]

d_g you make some good points, it is always a most interesting debate IMO.  Unfortunately it is a debate that often gets clouded to become a bitter war of words between native and non-native speaking teachers - words like "racist" get thrown around without a real appreciation of what is meant by it.

What do you think we are implying if we say that "native speakers" are the best ones to teach this language? Are we saying that these students can never be as fluent as the native speakers?

There are a great number of people that believe this to be case (among many employers here in Thailand this is a long held belief), dismissing them as "racist" doesn't further the debate at all, it shows ignorance of what is an important issue in the EFL world.

To spin it the other way, are you suggesting that English learners are capable of surpassing native speakers of English in English ability under the tuition of non-native speakers of English?

As ever it remains a very interesting debate and one I can't make up my mind on, I hear both arguments, I have worked with native and non-native speakers good and bad.  I see roles that I believe are more suited to native speakers, and then a non-native speaker with excellent linguistic skills will prove me wrong.  I have seen non-native speakers that are excellently prepared and good teachers only for a student to say "I can't understand!"

As ever, I'm sitting on the fence on this one - one thing is for sure though, god teachers are invariably better than bad ones!

[dorian_gray]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

Yes, students can be better than their teachers. Expecting that your students will not become better than you are is like hiring a 100-baht sex worker to give you a hand job.

I believe the world is moving forward and not backward. We are supposedly becoming better than the people before us. Or are we all retards here? But then I digress...

The people in this forum and other forums are a minority. The real world is out there and there are some educational institutions that treat all their teachers (Filipino, Australian, Indian, American, British) fairly. I am willing to show it to you guys. Just drop me a line.

Remember: I am not a recruiter. I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

[hero]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

There are "racial prejudices" engrained in Thai culture (and all other cultures for that matter), there is no doubt about.  However, I think to dismiss the practice of licensing native-speaker teachers more readily than non-natives as simply "racist" shows a lack of understanding of the bigger picture.  As I mentionned before, it is by no means a small number of people (not only Thais and not only school administrators) that genuinely believe that native-speakers make better English teachers, others disagree - it is a matter of some debate.

We know which side of the mast you have your colours nailed to, as I have said before I rest on the fence and have observed both sides.

I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

Me too, racial prejudices and stereotypes are horrible wherever they raise their heads.  However, I don't believe that this is purely a case of "racism" - there are many other important issues at stake.  I'm not a linguistics expert, just a teacher, and don't profess to fully understand all of these issues - there are compelling arguments for and against!

Yes, students can be better than their teachers. Expecting that your students will not become better than you are is like hiring a 100-baht sex worker to give you a hand job.

Not really!

I believe the world is moving forward and not backward. We are supposedly becoming better than the people before us. Or are we all retards here? But then I digress...

You do digress ..... into waters that appear cloudy at best as far as I'm concerned ..... ?

[dorian_gray]

I shall be literal here: if you think your students are not capable of knowing more than you (as teachers) then you have failed as a teacher. In my opinion, a great teacher sees an unlimited potential in her/his student.

I do not use my students to feel superior.

[hero]

I'll be honest with you dorian_gray, I believe that you are finding it difficult to keep an open mind here!

We are discussing the merits/demerits and reasons for the preference of native over non-native speakers, grand statements like this have no place in this discussion.....

If you think your students are not capable of knowing more than you (as teachers) then you have failed as a teacher. In my opinion, a great teacher sees an unlimited potential in her/his student.

If you think that students of a second language can surpass the ability of their teacher on the strength of what they learn in the classroom then you are living in a dreamworld.  To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Yes, we can teach our children to be learners and that will enable them all to hopefully achieve their full potential.  I can never hope that any of my (very very bright) M5 students will surpass my English ability from their lessons - but I really hope I motivate them to excel in English and allow themselves the benefit of studying abroad and improving further.

Do I think that native speakers necessarily achieve this over non-native speakers, absolutely not - I have never and will never make such a comment.  You clearly believe very strongly that the opposite is true.

You clearly believe that the motivation for the policy in Thailand of preferring native speakers is racially motivated, I only stated that I didn't think it was so cut and dry.

The old argument, "native vs. non-native speakers - who is best?" is as old as the hills and one that I will not be drawn into.

I do not use my students to feel superior.

Huh?

[monkey woods]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

I read this several times. Too many double negatives for my liking. Did you mean:

a) try being non-white and holding a passport that has not been issued by (the authorities in) Oz, US, UK, Canada etc?

b) try being non-white and not holding a passport that was issued somewhere other than Oz, US, UK, Canada etc?
    (in which case, you needn't worry - you're not holding a passport from a non-native English speaking country.)

c) try being non-white?

d) try, against the odds, to hold a conversation with native speakers of English whilst desperately attempting to retain your lucidity?

I just want to get rid of this prejudice against Filipinos, Indians and citizens of other countries that people say are not very much qualified to teach this language.

See what I mean? ...not very much qualified...stone the crows!

[bangjock]

Try being a non-white and not to hold a passport that is not issued by Oz, US, UK, Canada, etc. and I am sure you would learn what real racism is.

I think you are missing the point. Granted, teachers from the Philippines, India and wherever may be fluent in English and qualified teachers, but you are not native speaking English teachers.

Non native English speaking teachers may have problems with pronunciation, structure, rythmn, connected speech and idiom.

On my program, only native speakers are accepted, due to the above. This isn't based on racism, it's based on ability.