Topic: Getting legal

[ajarnnormal]

Can anyone tell me what the new regulations are for teachers at the MOE. I was told now they want a letter from your university to verify that you graduated there. What is the new regulation and what does the MOE accept and not accept?

[kenkannif]

Not heard of this mate...wouldn't surprise me if it was your employer asking for it as the MoE has nowt to do with checking them now....rather your employer verifies that they've checked it (regardless of whether they have or not).

Who told you this???

[ajarnnormal]

Not just me mate. Several teachers at my school have in the last week been knocked back from MOE and some have been put on hold waiting for verification from their University. I have managed to get verification and it is going through.

[hero]

wouldn't surprise me if it was your employer asking for it as the MoE has nowt to do with checking them now

Are you sure that this situation hasn't changed?  I personally know of four teachers who had their TLs and WPs rescinded several months after getting them when MOE officials wrote to the school concerned claiming the submitted qualifications to be "not genuine".  It is my strong belief (99.9% sure!) that the school knowingly submitted "dodgy" documentation and therefore it cannot be they who pulled the chain.

[kenkannif]

Ajarn N,

Not just you, but just at your school is what I should have said.


Hero,

They say they might check them after you've put them in...but it seems to happen rarely....and I'd guess they only bust really shite ones, or ones they have on file as fakes.

We've not received any new info in regards to MoE changing the rules again. So I can but assume (sorry chaps!!!).

[hero]

All four were at the same school.  I guess if one of them had been an obvious fake then they may have investigated all concerned.

Didn't the rules change mean that school owners would face prosecution if the situation I described were to happen?

What actually happened was that the school informed the four employees that their teachers' license had been rescinded, but not the WPs.  After several weeks the school decided that they had better notify the MOE that the employees had left the school and cancelled the WPs.  At least one of the teachers keeps a photocopy of his WP (not TL) and is still on the visa he had tied to his WP.  I guess he may get some grief when he finally goes for a new visa!  Another teacher left the country straight after cancelling the WP and came back on a 30-day stamp and carried on the same job!

There was no further action taken and all 4 still work at the school - except now they don't pay any tax!

Where's the logic?

[ajarnnormal]

From what i can gather from the other teachers who have either been knocked back or put on hold is that there is some sort of regulation now regarding getting your teachers licence. This involves getting some sort of verification from your university. As my documents are real and I know for sure that some are not, it just seems a little strange. I did go the consulate last year to get verification but that does not seem enough.

[HoD]

I just happened to read this thread and decided to register in order to post a reply. Not being an EFL teacher (HoD-English @ an international school), I generally have no reason to comment.

Anyway, I can tell you that one kindergarten teacher from my school was 'rejected' by the MoE for trying to use fake documents to obtain her teacher's license. It was the MoE that checked. I'm in charge of the primary school, so I cannot really comment on how the docs got past our kinder school's admin. All I know is that it was indeed the MoE that declared her degree bogus and then literally told the school to file charges against the teacher, or the MoE would come down on the school. This kindergarten teacher had worked for other international schools before moving over to our school, so she had gone through the MoE process before.

Well, that's all I know. Anyway, it seems to me that something is changing over at the MoE.

Regards,
HoD

[monkey woods]

HoD, I'm really interested in how the MOE do this check.

[HoD]

Monkey Woods,

They'd contact the university in question. Most western universities have a certain amount of 'public information' that is available to anyone for the asking. This said, it can often take quite a lot of time, depending on the requirements of each specific university (some may require a formal written request).  The teacher I was speaking about was at our school for almost 6 months (as I recall) before her world caved in.

I really don't know any details, but I simply know it did happen to one teacher in my school.   I also know that when I went to renew my teacher's license for my next 3 year period, it took far longer than in previous years.

Regards,
HoD

[monkey woods]

HoD, I know this is slightly off-topic, but as you are HoD - English, I thought it a good opportunity to ask you this question:

Do you think that, because a person does not have a degree, this should preclude that person from becoming a teacher in Thailand?

I know the view the Thai authorities have on this, but I just thought I'd widen the net.

[NamTok]

Ho D et al,

   The time differences between continents usually makes contacting unis from Thailand difficult, inconvenient and a drawn out process (except for Aust and NZ). This is my 8th year teaching in Thailand, so I've had a lot of extensions (one year) of stay on the visa and a lot of WPs. No verification ever has been required of my BA, MA or Teacher Certification, all earned by me in my native country, the US. As to my Teacher Certification in the US, being abroad I have to renew every five years by taking 9 units of study by distance learning.

   ajarnnormal,

      However, this year I encountered new enforcement of  new and/or long-ignored regs by the Ministry of Immigration. Tomorrow (28 July) is the date Immi will issue my latest 1-year extension on the visa and Min of Labor a new WP. I'm in Satun province in the South which has its own offices of major Thai ministries. As to the 1-yr Immi extension of visa to come tomorrow, for the first time, Immi required my school here to write in Thai the text on each of my degrees/diplomas/certificates. Other farang teachers I know in Satun province say they and their schools have to meet the same requirement. Immi in Satun says Immi in Bangkok is enforcing this long-ignored reuirement nationally. Are they? I don't know, so I ask here and now.
     
    Here's a curious one: In 1999 the Ministry of Education issued a Teacher License to me that is valid for life. Yes, valid forever. I never have had to get another TL in Thailand and didn't this time either, altho Satun Immi had insisted for a while that I get the defined period of time TL rather than be allowed to keep the license to teach in Thailand for eternity. So, the valid-for-life TL I've had from MoE these many years continues to be accepted---but not without some first-time resistance from Immi this time around.

     It does seem that new regs and/or long-ignored regs are being implemented by at least several ministries but especially at Immi and MoE, that is, the ministries we farang ajarns have to negotiate, along with the schools that employ us.

[monkey woods]

That is curious. Mine was issued for a period of three years.

Equally curious is that tomorrow is the 26th July not 28th - don't go down to the office two days early, mate! 

 

[kenkannif]

Yeah I had to renew my TL as well after three years.

Monkey,

You don't need a degree to get a TL and thus work permit in Thailand.

[kenkannif]

From what i can gather from the other teachers who have either been knocked back or put on hold is that there is some sort of regulation now regarding getting your teachers licence. This involves getting some sort of verification from your university. As my documents are real and I know for sure that some are not, it just seems a little strange. I did go the consulate last year to get verification but that does not seem enough.

No the school just has to say they've verified....how they do so is up to them although the MoE does tell them to get a letter (but I don't think the letter is needed to be shown to the MoE).

Consulates can't verify, they just stamp them basically.

[NamTok]

monkey woods,

   26th, yeah...tomorrow, the 26th....which now is today the 26th. ! !     
   Anyway, this morning my school presented me with two bunches of copies of my passport to sign.
   I'll find out this evening whether we'll go to Immi tomorrow, the 27th, which would be a day early. I very much doubt Immi wants to see us a day early.   
   It's been a comedy of errors this year by everyone involved.....
   Laugh and the world laughs with you, I think is the saying....   
   Thanks for the advice and reminder!   

[HoD]

Monkey Woods,

Yes. That said, my background is in education and my experience is with international schools/US schools. I think the language school realm is quite a different ball game, but I'm not the guy to ask about these other areas. 

[HoD]

No the school just has to say they've verified....how they do so is up to them although the MoE does tell them to get a letter (but I don't think the letter is needed to be shown to the MoE).

That is exactly how it always was.  It certainly didn't work that way for the teacher at my school.  That's all I'm saying.  A recent dicussion in the English Department seemed to verify this happening at other schools as well (third party crap... friend of a friend crap, but I guarantee there is something to it.

Take care,

HoD

[monkey woods]

Thanks for the advice and reminder!   

You're welcome.


Ken,

I've been out of there for nearly four years now, but I'm looking to return in the near future. I've read with consternation in various places on forums about a 'tightening-up' of regulations, and this has made me wary. I don't have any qualifications the Thai authorities would be interested in, although I taught in Thailand for almost three years before returning to England. This I was able to do with some "help" from my employer. This entailed manufacturing documents which were then submitted to the MOE, MOL and Immigration. Nervous about this at first, once I had all the paperwork in my possession I relaxed and forgot about it until I had to go through the yearly renewal process. I realise that degree holders will now be wincing or gnashing their teeth, and understand the suspicion with which they regard the teaching ability of someone such as myself.
If it softens the blow at all, I taught in a Thai government school - nothing so prestigious as an International School - I know my limitations. I did the job I was employed to do in an effective way (and [mostly!] enjoyed it) and had a good working relationship with the students, parents and staff.

 However...I don't want to run the same risks again with regard to the paperwork. Not having a degree wouldn't stop me from getting a TL you said but, realistically, how many schools would speak up on my behalf as they did in the old days? There seems to be a genuine feeling that things are tighter these days - is this just me reading it that way, or is that the reality?

[NamTok]

monkey woods,

   Things in Thailand have tightened up and continue to become tighter. My former school used to be able to hire non-degreed, ie, unqualified teachers without restriction or conditions. The school continues to be able to hire non-degreed teachers but the unqualified teacher has to attend weekend teacher certification classes for a period of time (I can't remember the length of time.). That's just one instance of what you'd have to do if you got a school in Thailand to hire you if you returned to Thailand.

[Uncle Che]

I don't know if they have tightened up or not. I do know that teachers are being hired without a degree at private and public schools in Thailand with very little difficulty and getting their work permits and visas extended. If there is a tightening up, I do not know.

[hero]

No the school just has to say they've verified....how they do so is up to them although the MoE does tell them to get a letter (but I don't think the letter is needed to be shown to the MoE).

I know of a school where four teachers who had been helped by their employer to obtain TLs using "non-genuine" certificates were stripped of their TLs.  They had their TLs for between 2 and 5 months when the school management was notified by the MoE that the provided documentation wasn't genuine and advised the school that the TLs were to be invalidated and that they should return the WPs immediately.  The school wrote a letter to the MoL apologising for their "mistake" and returned the WPs saying they had dismissed the teachers concerned.  All of the teachers remained at the school - some chose to leave the country immediately and re-enter on new (30-day) visas, at least one decided not to bother and has gambled on using the visa issued in accordance with his (now nullified) WP, thus risking a hefty overstay some time in the future (although he is confident that when his visa expires he will run to Cambodia and back, telling immigration checkpoint officers that he has just completed his contract at that time!).

The school had supported their applications saying that they believed all docs to be genuine (although they knew they weren't), TLs were issued.  Clearly somebody at the MoE went on to inspect the docs in question and follow up with a proper verification.  Not sure if it's a random procedure - but four were affected in one school.

Fortunately for the teachers concerned, no further action was taken by the MoE, MoL or Immigration departments and all of them kept their jobs - they just lose the benefits of having a WP, are now working illegally again and pay no tax!

This all happened within the last twelve months - the TL/WP application, receipt and nullification.  The most recent "victim" (and I use that term loosely!) was stripped of his TL just last month.

I believe it was the notification from the MoE that schools would be solely responsible for verifying documents that led the school down the (unfortunate) path of aiding teachers wishing to submit false certifications - clearly they thought that their "word" would be all the verification required, it seems that this was certainly not the case ultimately!

Last time I heard, there were still a couple of teachers in the same school that had "got away with it" in exactly the same fashion, although clearly they believe that "their time will come"!

[monkey woods]

The school continues to be able to hire non-degreed teachers but the unqualified teacher has to attend weekend teacher certification classes for a period of time

Doesn't sound too bad, mate. Actually, it sounds like rather a good idea.


The whole system still sounds like it depends on which side of bed the officials got out of on any given day - which, overall, is not good news.

Thanks NamTok, Uncle Che, hero

[NamTok]

monkey woods,

   I agree. I advise you of what I know because, if schools are to be allowed to hire non-degreed teachers then the "teachers" should be required to learn about teaching. Many non-degreed teachers have good worldly knowledge and can put that to work in the classroom in an effective way after earning teaching qualifications and credentials. By the way, the non-degreed teachers I worked with over six years at the former school varied considerably in their intellect and knowledge. One, a Brit now in his 4th year of teaching academic English, has completed the weekend "time" to get teacher compentency and credentials. He's intelligent and competent to begin with and of course doesn't cost the school much in salary. Other non-degreed employees placed in the classroom were completly ineffective teaching academic English or any other subject. One was made "librarian."

   Yes, as hero probably points out, the system is still arbitrary but I see more uniformity of rule making and enforcement of existing and new rules and regs at the relevant ministries. That's my experience and impression lately, anyway. Good luck.

[ajarnnormal]

Just been accepted by MOE. I have a 3 year teachers license now and a work permit. I can tell you that I was asked to show proof of my degree even though I had a teachers license before for 2 years. There have been a number of teachers that I know of who have been knocked back by the MOE. There appears to be a tightening up or is it just a purge as teachers start a new term at a new school? I see the point about unqualified teachers being able to teach but I am sure that must affect their cance of being able to be made legal. If qualified teachers are having to jump through hoops to get legal it seems to defeat the object if unqualified teachers can get legal. I have nothing against unqualified teachers being able to teach. There are some good ones out there. another point is that there is no coordination between MOE, MOL and immgration. I have had to go to immigration and pay the 1900 three times to get this sorted through no fault of my own. Fortunately my school paid for two of these visits as it was not my doing and they had checked my qualification before. I had a written letter from my university to get legal this time.

[monkey woods]

I had a written letter from my university to get legal this time.

What did your Uni say in the letter?

I'm having to ask all these underhand questions because I'm pretty much determined to return to Thailand with my family. I'd like to teach again but, as I've said already, I'm unqualified and don't have the things I need to 'get legal' with regard to work. This leaves me with two options:

1) Do underhand stuff in order to (hopefully) satisfy officials at various ministries.
2) Teach 'illegally' (sic).

Yes, by not being qualified, I feel like a fraud anyway - why should I worry that I'm also cheating the regulations which, in my opinion, are rather sweeping, to say the least. I'm not keen on those long train rides to Butterworth either; I always end up on the bottom bunk.

[ajarnnormal]

I sent an e.mail to the information department at my uni and they asked for details such as dates name DOB. then they told me they would contact me when and if they could verify that I was a student there and that I had a degree.i was sure that I was not going to do any underhanded stuff. Why should I was my stand on this. I am legal and i wanted to be legal.

[monkey woods]

Sorry, I misunderstood your first post (I think) as I thought you meant that you had a letter from the Uni where you studied your degree saying that you had studied there.

That's why I asked the question about what the letter from your Uni said.

On reading your post again, I think that maybe you meant that the Uni where you now teach had sent you a letter saying: "Get legal!"

Just to clear this up, did the info dept at your Uni then email your place of study and verify that you were, in fact, a student there? If so, how long did this take, and what information did they supply?

[kenkannif]

No the school just has to say they've verified....how they do so is up to them although the MoE does tell them to get a letter (but I don't think the letter is needed to be shown to the MoE).

That is exactly how it always was.  It certainly didn't work that way for the teacher at my school.  That's all I'm saying.  A recent dicussion in the English Department seemed to verify this happening at other schools as well (third party crap... friend of a friend crap, but I guarantee there is something to it.

Take care,

HoD

I think the verification rule only came in the last year or so, so not how it always was. Before that the onus was on the MoE to check (which they rarely did).

We had a meeting with the MoE last week and nothing has changed (other than the school is supposed to report anyone who they find putting in a fake to the MoE).

[kenkannif]

Hero,

I'd guess they had very shite ones....or they were on the 'list' of dodgy ones.

[kenkannif]

Monkey Woods,

It's seems far more common nowdays for goverment schools etc. to get their teachers a work permit without them holding a degree (certainly in the 6 years I've been here this is the biggest year for people getting them without a degree). I deal with quite a few teachers all over Thailand.

I think it's getting easier personally.

Also as Nam Tok mentions I too have heard of one a day a week 'courses' that after 12 months will make you legit (looking into now will try and give more info).

[monkey woods]

Thanks Ken.

I'm a worrier, and wouldn't want to risk packing everything up here if there were going to be some problems down the line over there.

If it's not too much trouble, could you explain how a government school could get a work permit for a teacher without a degree?
As I mentioned before, I think any help offered by a school to a teacher with a view to bettering his/her potential to teach is a good thing, and I'd welcome the opportunity to go down that line.

First things first though...

[kenkannif]

Well the first thing is persuading them it's doable....that's the hardest part IMO.

Then you need them to contact the MoE and basically 'vouch' for you or 'sponsor', and tell them why you're capable of doing the job (TEFL, experience, etc.). Once you have the TL or the go ahead from the MoE the WP is pretty much a given.

[hero]

Government school teachers don't need a teacher's license in order to get a work permit.  To satisfy the immigration requirements they need to provide a letter from the local (provincial) government office instead of the teacher's license documentation.

In my (limited) experience government schools don't have any problem obtaining this document.

The support (i.e. them submitting the application with the director's approval) of the school is enough to satisfy the labour department's requirements for providing the work permit.

Basically, if the government school is willing to give you the job they can get you "legal" pretty easily.  I have seen two teachers "legalised" this way this semester.

Private schools = completely different kettle of fish!!!!

I should add, my school is outside Bangkok.  There is the possibility that different provincial immigration police stations and labour departments have different rules!

[Ronaldo]

In my experience working at a 'State' school requires no qualifications whatsoever but they usually would like you to have some experience working in a school of some description, of course some ask for a degree and a TEFL certificate which is often deemed a bonus but a teacher's license is not a requirement, hence the lack of a demand for certification.

State schools in general do not have the funding to hire well qualified teachers, although some of course do, but that it is up to the teacher to take a lower than average salary, however. State schools seem to get things done somewhat easier in terms of visa, WP etc. and of course can be a lot of fun and even, dare I say it, quite professional and well-run establishments.

However, any form of private establishment requires all the necessary certification and all the hoops to be jumped through, its when you go through the hoops that the fun and games begin and it is usually the private establishment that is at fault, this board is testament to the vagaries of that challenge.

[hero]

Hero,

I'd guess they had very shite ones....or they were on the 'list' of dodgy ones.

I've looked into it a little bit .... it seems one of the teachers concerned had an English degree from a silly-named non-existent Cambridge University college!!!

I guess that could have got alarm bells ringing and then led the MoE to check out all of the other certificates the school had "verified". 

One thing I still can't understand though, if the rules are as I thought them to be.  Why haven't the school been investigated/prosecuted for their blatant (repeated) breaches of the law?  No official has ever visited the school to check if the teachers are still working there and there has been no coordination between the MoE and MoL - i.e. they have never asked for WPs to be returned, those that returned them did so voluntarily, others still have them and plan to keep them until they expire (obviously they won't be able to renew them) and I guess they are 'technically' legal until this time.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't really seem like they are toughening up that much - teachers could have been in serious trouble for being caught passing fake docs at the end of the day, yet all are still employed at the same place, just now some don't pay any tax!

[monkey woods]

teachers could have been in serious trouble for being caught passing fake docs at the end of the day, yet all are still employed at the same place, just now some don't pay any tax!

How often do these teachers have to leave the country?

[hero]

  Like I said, some of them are still holding their WPs (only the teacher's licenses were cancelled) and there seems not to have been any correspondance from MoE to MoL regarding cancellation of WPs, they won't leave the country until their WPs expire.  Who knows what will happen to them then, my guess being that they may well get away with it if the school sends the WPs back saying they have finished their contracts and are leaving - the teachers then would have to leave the country within 7 days and come back in.  If the MoE have informed the MoL that the teacher's licenses were cancelled then technically they could be in for some hefty fines at the MoL and Immigration.

Other teachers that didin't want to take the risk handed back their WPs and are currently working on 30-day visas - I guess that's how they'll remain as I don't see much hope for them getting TLs in the future (having been caught using fake docs already) and it's a private school so they won't get a WP without a TL!

Looking at the evidence it's hard to see that the MoE are clamping down on teachers passing fake docs.  The teachers I know about have been caught and no action has really been taken (except to rescind the TLs).  I would have thought that if the government were serious then these would be the kind of people to make an example of!

[monkey woods]

In your opinion then, would it strike you as being cavalier if a person uprooted from his home country to seek work (without a degree) as a teacher in Thailand?

[hero]

Well, it's certainly doable - lots of people have done and are doing it here.  You ought to have a backup plan too though, in my opinion.  Just say the situation changes in a couple of years .....

[monkey woods]

Just say the situation changes in a couple of years .....

You had to go and spoil it didn't you? 

[kenkannif]

Thanks Hero....so I wasn't too far off??? I'd agree though it's not really getting any harder, easier if anything.

Basically I'd say the MoE won't do anything to those with WPs....as to do so would be an admittance sp?) that they fucked up....and the old face thing rears it's ugly err face

MW,

You could always do some kind of degree this end while you're teaching. Although I've 'heard' that there are other options which I hopefully will be looking into soon.

[monkey woods]

Cheers, I'll look forward to that.