Topic: Thammasat University

[jackbarnes]

Thammasat University (TU) is the worst teaching experience I have had in my 5 years in Asia. First of all, the English Department is essentially segregated (I know, in Thailand, this is not too unusual). The administration are a group of anti-farang, draconian baboons. They can't really tell the difference between one farang and the next--we all look the same to them. TU students are arrogant, elitist babies who are not nearly as talented as they think they are. By far, the most difficult students I have ever taught---period!

If you are considering teaching for TU--THINK AGAIN! 

[hero]

I've not heard too many reports on government unis to be honest.  I'm pretty sure the way you describe it is exactly how I imagined it to be! (Does that make me as bad as them with petty stereotypes?)

How does the pay and hours compare to the average - whatever the average is

[Notanewbie]

"The administration are a group of anti-farang, draconian baboons. They can't really tell the difference between one farang and the next--we all look the same to them. TU students are arrogant, elitist babies who are not nearly as talented as they think they are."

Fair enough, you didn't like your students or the people in the administration and didn't get along with any of the people you came into contact with. However you don't mention any dodgy practices, just clashes of personality. Opinion about the personality of pthers is fine, but ancedotal reports about how a single person doesn't like a whole group of people is not something I would base an employment decision on. There is nothing in your post that would make me think twice about applying for a job at Thammasat. Just because you couldn't get along with anyone at the uni does not mean others will have the same problem. I have a tendency to generally dismiss wide sweeping statements, like yours, about the general characteristics of personalities of large numbers of people. While working at a government school as an English teacher is unlikely to bring many financial rewards, I have a hard time believing working for Thammasat is not far and away better than working at a three letter language school or a Thai high school. I have worked at a number of unis, from near the top level down to the bottom, and have always found it preferable to working at a language school or other place here in LOS. But that is just personal preference on my part; hope you enjoy working for ECC or Siam or wherever you land next.

[pauleddy]

I was recently offered an interview at Thammasat. The farang teacher who was co-ordinating recruitment did a very thorough job with sending job details etc. I didn't attend, because at least 50% of the work was at Rangsit, too far to get to.

A friend was recently short-listed at Chula. There were some good points about the place, but he did mention that the Thai management was 100% middle-aged female, and so possibly a mini-mafia in terms of the politics of the place, differing agendas, back-biting and so forth..........I am only speculating.

Another friend was interviewed at a "2nd division" uni in BKK. All 6 candidates were called to attend at 1pm....so the last guy was not interviewed until 4.30. I could have understood a 1pm start if there was going to be a plenary/group/roleplay type session, but no. Surely they should have staggered the interview summoning, i.e. 1pm, 1 45, 2 30 etc....not rocket science. He was not asked for any references, and, apparently, his degrees were inspected in about 30 seconds, they could easily have been forgeries. He said that, during the interview, the all-female panel indulged in a lot of whispering and nudging between themselves, and appeared to have been "moving the goalposts" about extra hours, overtime rates etc. I originally got to know this guy because, like me, he taught HRM in the UK....and in terms of HRM good practice, some of these failings really stick out!!

I understand that a Moo Ban school in the hilltribe areas may not exactly have HRM-trained staff....but we are talking here about unis in BKK. Does anyone agree/disagree/have other tales to tell? From what I can gather, this sort of thing is not a one-off, it happens everywhere here.

Am I expecting too much? I agree 100% with Notanewbie...I would much rather work at a uni than at Siam/EF or other unmentionable places...but I wish that they would acquire some basic HRM skills first.

 

[bangjock]

Opinion about the personality of others is fine, but ancedotal reports about how a single person doesn't like a whole group of people is not something I would base an employment decision on. There is nothing in your post that would make me think twice about applying for a job at Thammasat.

That's fair enough I guess.  However, for other people the "atmosphere" of a place may be more important than kudos or financial reward.  I for one would not want to devote myself to working as a part of a team in which I didn't feel comfortable, no matter how cushy the job and conditions were - this is the voice of my experience talking believe me

I think it's equally valid to warn people about potential personality clashes and "uncomfortable" atitudes as the material wrongdoings that are characteristic of other establishments.  There are after all a lot of unhappy people working in "good" jobs for good pay and conditions!

 

[Hooded_Claw]

I guess everyone is entitled to their take, notanewbie. For my part, my year at a thai uni was not one I'd like to repeat, partly for some of the reasons that jock covers.

Saying it's better than ECC is very faint praise, and jock's comments are worth weighing, IMO. Personally I've never really considered Thamassat as I heard the salaries are not what I'd work for.

[pauleddy]

Call me a fence-sitter, but they both have a point.

You cannot base a decision on one person's anecdotal experience. They may have a personal axe to grind, or may not have "fitted in". They may have been a doodoo teacher.

On the other hand, because of our westerner culture and common?shared experiences, expectations etc.....and because things ARE different here in terms of management attitudes (or what u will), I would always listen to others' opinions, especially where there is recurrence of similar complaints or praise. Listening to others is neither scientific nor objective, but, let's face it, we do it all the time, for better or worse. If we are talking about some uni or other, it may be all we've got until we actually go to the interview and have a sneaky look around, or even get the job and actually experience it.

I believe that there are tell-tale signs in the recruitment process (as mentioned above) which are signs that you should be looking for...as to whether the place is efficient as well as sympathetic to its employees.

 

[hero]

I for one am always interested to hear anyone's opinion about any establishment.  If I was looking for employment I would like to have a nice pool of differing criticisms to reflect upon before I made any decision.

As Bangjock said, different people have different motivations and requirements at the end of the day.

[Notanewbie]

I wasn't disputing anything Jack said, it is just, for me, relying on someone else's opinion about a large group of people or even the personality of a single individual is not something I do. You might think Mr. *. is a complete wanker and I might think he is a pretty upright dude. (I seem to generally see more positives in others than the average teacher) I have worked at many a place, including a bunch of unis, and in each case there were people I liked and people I didn't enjoy being around so much. In a Thai school, I never get involved in office politics, so whether there are cliques or whatever has little effect on me.  My philosophy is that I am at a Thai uni to teach management, not practice it. So I expect there to be at least some people at any place I work I will not really like but I will probably get along with the majority.

Paul,

I occassionaly teach HRM myself, but of all the managment sciences, it is one of the most culturally affected. (I am working on paper that deals with this issue for an academic conference right now). There are practices at Thai schools that drive me up the wall at time, but, after living abroad for over a decade I can also see the cultural aspect of the organizational practices of organizations from my home country as well. I often find myself when dealing with western organization wondering why they have to be so impersonal, rigid, and bureacratic and why can't they be more like Thai organizations. If one is going to judge everything in Thailand using western standards as the measuring stick one will always be disappointed.

Should Thai universities use western organizational practices? Who knows, I just know Thai universities don't use western organizational practices and I don't expect they will anytime soon. If one decides to work in Thailand one has to accept that fact or spend one's life banging one's head against a wall. Each can make his or her own choice how to deal with the differences between cultures.

Maybe the English Department at Thammasat is a "bad" place to work, but my guess there are dozens if not hundreds of applicants for each opening. But one of the cool things about being an English teacher in Bangkok is there are so many options. Unis, language schools, high schools, kindergartens, test prep centers and all kinds of other places. Find one the fits your needs and likes, not every place is a perfect fit for everybody.

Cheers

[pauleddy]

NANB

fair comment!

I have only been here for a matter of months, so I am still adjusting.

However, quite apart from any textbook HRM stuff, I would have thought that practices based on politeness (this is supposed to be a "polite" society and country) or even good old fashioned common sense...could at least be paid lip service to. My example about calling six candidates at 1pm (common sense??) or wittering and nudging by the panel (politeness??) could be seen as examples. I rest my case. Obviously, tho', my expectations are too high.

 

[jackbarnes]

First of all, the pay at TU is outstanding. They offer many extra classes at 1000 baht an hour (or more). That was the only redeeming aspect of the experience.

You want specifics:

Case 1: a teacher was almost finished with her two year contract, and was teaching summer school at TU. Her father was dying of cancer back home. She asked the department if she could go home early, that is a month or so, before her contract ended to be with her dying father. She wanted to leave early and not give up her contract completion gratuity. They said "no." Rule are rules.

Case 2: teacher's mother was dying of cancer back home. He asked for an advance on MONEY ALREADY OWED HIM by TU, so he could pay for travel costs. They ignored him.

Case 3: a teacher was fired without any notice (the contract requires 90 days). TU then froze his credit union account to prevent him from withdrawing money.

[hero]

I moved the debate about the drunken teachers claiming to be unqualified and working at Chula University to Sour Gripes.  It is more laughable than sour, but it was way off-topic on this thread!

[Hooded_Claw]

First of all, the pay at TU is outstanding. They offer many extra classes at 1000 baht an hour (or more).

Isn't the basic something in the 25,000 baht range? If not, I stand corrected.

[DedicatedEducator]

I recently taught at Thammasat University (TU) for one year. Remember, TU is one of the most prestigious educational institutions in the nation. Expectations are high for the best!

I could write a book on the: (1) incompetent, but highly educated, Thai managers and administrators that possess little knowledge of leadership and supervision in a multi-cultural work environment, (2) blatant discriminatory practices of many Thai faculty members and managers toward foreign teachers, (3) false promises of additional work, and (4) the insane policy of requiring educators to travel three to four hours, or longer (round-trip) to teach one or two classes at their Rangsit Campus (a complex situation that is beyond the scope of discussion of this thread).

Concurrently, I have significant praise and admiration for my students at TU. They were respectful, well-behaved, and most were genuinely interested in learning.

Also, during his brief tenure, the farang supervisor of foreign faculty was professional, competent, and a pleasure to work with. Unfortunately, he was never replaced, and there was no longer a reliable mechanism or procedure to address / resolve complex and legitimate problems.

Would I teach there again? Absolutely not! Not even for a 100% salary increase.

[blackmail]

DeadED:

Could you please inform the forum of your education level, and that of your co-workers?  It sounds pretty awful, if you wouldn't go back for double pay.  Kind of a mixed bag of opinions on this one.  Enlighten us.

[DedicatedEducator]

DeadED:

Could you please inform the forum of your education level, and that of your co-workers?  It sounds pretty awful, if you wouldn't go back for double pay.  Kind of a mixed bag of opinions on this one.  Enlighten us.

MS/Engineering; MS/MBA (International Business); BS/Engineering; TESOL Credential; Teaching Credential from State of Arizona, USA; various other academic credentials and certifications in Program Management and Executive Development.

Many of my farang co-workers possessed advanced degrees, but most had Bachelors. Most of the Thai lecturers had Masters degrees from Western countries.

[jackbarnes]

Administrators with little knowledge...that's the understatement of the year--all they want to do is eat. The previous poster must have taught only low level (e.g, Listening and Speaking 1) courses. It's true that they are very well-behaved. But other classes, in particular, South East Asian Studies  and BBA, were a NIGHTMARE. And the truth of the matter is,  I handled them much better than most of my colleagues did. I guess my tolerance for being shit on by rich little children is much lower than that of others. I call that self respect.

Hey, you give these kids a 10 minute break and they return in 40 minutes (big groups rolling in at different times). They, the boys especially, openly challenge you in class; by challenge I mean "Mr. Teacher, you're stupid and I'm smart and I don't have to listen to you; besides my daddy is very rich." Whereby you are forced to put the little turd in his place: "If you don't change your attitude, you will fail. Try me buddy boy." Again, some teachers will tolerate such garbage for the money. My dignity does not have a price tag.

It seems that rich Thai youth (and probably their parents) are ignorant of their real place on the food chain. After all, they are still only Thai.

 

[Uncle Che]

Please avoid talking about Thai Farang relations on this thread, those posts have been moved to the Sour Gripes section where they are happily on-topic.

[greenlight56]

that sounds like every thai school, both the students and administration.

[upright man]

"After all, they are still only Thai."
What does that make someone who works for them? I admit Thammasat can be a pain; i was there for a year - way back. I was the only farang at the Rangsit campus and consequently had lots of proof reading and editing to do for the Thai ajarns. They were always considerate and understanding of the times required to undertake these tasks. I had 4 groups of 2nd yr students (over 150) and they were ALL hardworking and fun people to be with. It may have helped that I was a thorough bastard the first few weeks and laid down the lecturer/students expectations in the 1st 5 mins. I also told them that I was very wealthy and was only teaching for fun (a pack of lies). I'm buggering off soon to some very lucrative new pastures outside of Thailand, but when i return in a coupla years i will look for a p/t job in my semi retirement. It will be places like Thamm and the Raja's where i will look.
As far as the Bangkok campus is concerned, i only have a few dim memories of my rare visits. I get the feeling that Jack's experiences are pretty typical and it's a shame that Thai management don't back up the farang staff when it's really needed. Jack IS an ajarn and should never be spoken to by anybody in such a fashion.

[jamesball]

Hullo,

does anybody have any info on what the written test focuses on for admission to this university. Also are they accepting applications at the moment?

[Minxlady]

I can't answer the last question, but see reply in the Siam Uni thread for some general comments about "leading" Thai unis.

Re. Thammasat:

Ages ago, I did not attend a Thammasat interview because over 60% of the classes were at Rangsit (way out of town) and then I was expected (next morning) to commute to the river campus too. The Rangsit commute could be (total) 2 or 3 hrs daily, in bad traffic. Maybe OK if u live up there.

Re: 1000b an hour!

I understand that Chula pays even more for "overtime" private courses (usually in other faculties). A friend who left there recently told me it used to be 2500b AN HOUR !!!but the management resented the fact that farangs were managing and delivering these courses very well 'outside' of the language faculty.... and sliced off 10% of the farang wages for 'admin costs'. The Thais promptly screwed up the 'admin' of the courses, and in the end it got so bad that the farangs took back managing the courses for free, despite losing money. To add insult to injury, the Thais promised that the 10% would pay for new teachers to relieve pressure on the farangs (cash enough for 4 but only 1 was appointed...good profit).

Re:Salary

The previous poster was right. The gvment uni salary is 26,000b. This is 18,000 basic (YES!!) but 8,000 housing allowance added. U can't live on this money, so u have to do the overtime. I couldn't live on this, so I left a public uni 2 yrs ago...but I left also because of the sheer ineptitude and incompetence of the Thai 'management', and the way that farangs were exploited while Thais gossiped, ate noodles all day and took huge sabbaticals/jollies while screwing up everything they tried to do.

If you can live on the money, your hours are about 12-15 teaching (but u have meetings and paperwork). Your visa and WP should be sorted effortlessly, in any case.

M