Topic: NEW-Teachers uniting for first time-PLEASE READ

[smokinsa]

Dear fellow teachers.

Our goal in Thailand is...overall, very common...We are here because it is a beautiful land and we care about its children and educational future. What's making life difficult is the capacity of the administration at most schools. I am a teacher who, until very recently, worked for a Sarasas school. The reason I resigned was obvious, if you'd care to look at the numerous posts left by the 'resigned staff' from those schools. Along with over fifty dedicated staff, our reasons for creating this post is to ask you all...all of 'US', to come together and not just express our grievances, but to act towards a resiliant strategy which will help the admin in most of these schools lift their heads up out of their common fear-based belief systems and join us as one. Whether you are a Philippino, a Thai or a 'Farrang', our goals as teachers are the same. Sadly, Thailand still believes that 'height is right' in most cases, so Thai staff are susceptable to falling victim to pleasing the 'height' in their school. They will learn from us and hopefully create less choices from their fear of termination and more decisions based on what is healthiest for their schools and their foreign staff......and students. As for the rest of us, we need to understand that the reason why Thailand is still, after centuries of development, a developing country, is because of the ancient belief windows through which most Thais look at the world..."If it doesn't quiver, leave it. If it causes a problem, discard it, If it smiles with fruitlesness...just smile and maintain the peace."  If we are to be content teachers here, we must either accept it as it is, or do our best to make it not only tolerable for ourselves, but even pleasurable....not only for the first few months of naive and 'exotic' new experiences this beautiful place has to offer us all. The Thai educational community needs our help. This ENTIRE forum is about teaching...this one in particular is about Thailand's teaching problems and a good example.....people are crying out for help. I came to this country years ago and have been teaching for a long time. I have seen the respect for our farrang staff go from being abundant to seeing Thai admin try and put us more in line with their own, quivering staff. This won't do. Bottom line: The foreign staff in Thailand MUST form a unison of support. Even if it is as a small group. Certainly, democracy at this capacity will appear foreign to Thais for a while, however they must learn this if they are to help their future generations live in comfort AND speak in fluent, unbiast English. We must choose what we do carefully and not think of ourselves as individual teachers with differing problems. This forum is a blatant example of the mentality we are up against. Why is it that we must hide away under this cyber-rock to speak out......that's the Thai way and we are conforming unecessarily. Our two cultures must come together in a healthy compromise so that we both can live in comfort and professional peace. The white face is like a flag in your school that brings in good money for your school owner's pocket. You are very valuable and although you can be replaced, you must remember that your replacement may NOT be in the your kids' highest interest, or Thailand's bilinbgul future.....hence stronger economy etc. (After all, what kind of basis and foundations are being left in the eyes of these children when not only many of their parents are away but then have to deal with inconstent teacher-student raport as well).? To give you and example of HOW we may repair this over-stayed, destructive pattern....please read the following:

I left Romklao....Sarasas, three months ago. While I was there, I noticed a high turn over of staff. The good teachers stayed a lot longer than the rest but still not long enough. Suddenly, Thai Admin decided ALL foreign coordinators should be dismissed, bar one, (who's job it was to liase between three schools of the Sarasas chain in area 5), and the foreign staff were suddenly being represented by Thai coordinators who were swiftly put in their place if suggestion of any discomfort from farrangs was suggested. Surprisingly and certainly what seems to be a first for our teachers, a group of young, foreign staff members bonded together and formed a small commitee. They compiled a letter asking for some changes that would make Thai admin stick to its schedule relating to annual leave dates. (Many staff had planned flights out of the country and they changed the dates, whereby several days were deducted for no reason other than making us stay at school for the sake of it......no students etc). The letter was received by a very senior admin lady and promptly dismissed so it never reached the director. So, a petition was written asking for the school to recognize its errors in constantly changing leave dates and inconveniencing staff throughout all three schools. (The same director runs three in area 5). Out of 107 staff, over 80% signed the paper. And, the Nimitmai staff supported the petition also by starting their own...totalling over 100 supportive staff. To cut the long story short, the school apologized, stated they would offer prior notice with future leave changes, gave ALL three schools three days extra of undisturbed leave and offered a memo to this effect to ALL THREE schools....even the one that wasn't aware of the problem because it was being filled with newcomers from overseas who had no idea what their 'rights' were. Moral of the story?.....Stick together and you WILL get what is fair. Another example....the bus that Sarasas Nimitmai lost....causing farrang teachers to catch taxis to their school, (which breached their contracts),......their bus was reinstated because a group of staff at a close by school offering a petition of support. The bus WAS reinstated but the Philippino staff are now NOT allowed to ride on it. (One step at a time). What was wonderful was that both schools wrote something to the admin and something was DONE about the problem.

DON'T think you are alone. Look at the poll on this board about dishonourable conduct with contracts and salary problems etc. Please support your fellow teachers because you are actually supporting yourself in the process.....and let's not allow these problems to fester and continue to create a high turnover of staff at our schools. The youth of this country needs to learn not only what is in books but also to believe in their role-models and how to become fair and just people. If we continue to leave them because of adimin's decisions without a fight because of the mentality that we are in 'their country and must bow to their ways'.......what kind of role models are we? Let's do this....together. Please EMAIL me with and ideas you may have. Thailand deserves it!

[pucky_sleuter]

Here here---however, has this issue has been kicked to death across Asia without any substantial result, I'm not quite sure as to what you're suggesting.  In Korea, there's a legal forum whereas complaints/ grievances can be directed and dealt with by the proper authorities.  Perhaps, if there's a member of the legal community that would support foreign teachers/workers in Thailand, whether they be Thai or a Foreigner, and acting as a legal entity in HMK many many matters could be resolved. 

[smokinsa]

Hi. Yes that is one very good option. Do you know the name of that organization in Korea? I'd like to contact them and have a chat. In the meantime, what we can do is simply cease thinking of ourselves as individuals and start to see everyone as a team. If one school, (especially one that is part of a chain), causes an 'amendment to someone's contract and the consequences are for the worse, please consider this as YOUR problem too. If they do it to one white face, you will be seen as the same thing and it will undoubtedly mean that the Thai admin will consider it can be done to you as well. Sadly, it's the way they think sometimes. Take for instance the three Sarasas schools: Rangsit is a new school and the fingerprinting maching was installed there along with Nimitmai. Rangsit is a brand new educational facility with most of the teachers straight from overseas...so they probably don't know any better of their 'rights' in contract. No objection was voiced. Secondly, Nimitmai comprises of about 15 farrang staff...too small a group to make enough of a stand and would risk termination if they did so. So, they installed the machine at their Romklao school last and with a morning's notice that the teachers must muster within the 'next three hours' to have their initial scan. One of the reasons they came to Romklao last is because there are over 120 staff and they are mostly worldly, experiences teachers who wouldn't 'take it'. The school's argument was that there's nothing to complain about because the other two schools have had the machine installed. If the teachers complained about leaving school 20 minutes after their contract was requesting they remained, the school replies that the other schools start scanning not before four. A smiple example but enough to demonstrate that without sticking together, farrang teachers will probably continue to lose their privelages.

For now, all of you, please speak with some of your own colleagues and decided, unanimously if possible, that you will support one another in the event of any unreasonable behaviour on your school's behalf. This may be a simple as supporting one experienced and ballsy teacher through thick and thin and having a member in each staff room meet with him or her and express the 'general feeling' in the week. If there is a problem, he or she can bring it up at the meeting with Thai admin and instead of being told 'too bad', he or she can speak out freely knowing the teachers are backing him/her all the way.I  am aware of at least four schools who are already taking action and it not only takes the Thais by surprise, but it has been helping reduce the amount of discomfort caused, hence the retention of quality staff. It is by-time this has to happen or you all risk the possibility of becoming just as expendable as the Thai staff.

[Notanewbie]

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!

I know I shouldn’t be responding to this thread but I can’t help myself. I don’t know about anyone else, but I AM NOT A VICTIM and refuse to adopt the victim mentality. First off, Thailand, Thai schools, and Thai people in general do not owe anything to a foreigner just because he or she decided to relocate here. I came here willingly with my eyes open. I have been able to move up the career ladder a little while here, without the help of a union or my fellow farang teachers. Sure I got short shafted a couple of times by schools here, but the jobs that did so, or jobs I didn’t really like, I left as soon as something new popped up.

Second, I left my working class background behind and I have no need for “solidarity” with my fellow teachers to stand up against the “Man.” I can take care of myself just fine. I have no problem with the voluntary employment arrangement I have with the schools I work with. As long as the job fits both our needs, I will continue, if the job no longer meets the needs of wither the schools or myself, it will be time to change. After reading the initial post, does anyone wonder why English teachers have such a low reputation amongst “real teachers” and other professionals? Don’t like your job, leave and go somewhere else that will make you happy. Instead, you want to stand and fight against the “injustice” Yeah right, so unfair, white faced “teachers” do not have to have any real qualifications, like Thai teachers do, and get paid a higher wage. Woe is the plight of the pitiful farang in Thailand.

Third. TiT. There are almost no Thai unions, and yet smokinsa wants to start one for what must people consider spoiled and pampered yokels whose only skill is they have a pretty good grasp of their mother tongue. Talk about a complete lack of cultural understanding.

Count me out, I don’t feel victimized (in fact I kind of feel like I am treated just a wee bit special living in Thailand and that is kind of nice). I have no need for the help of a union since I am doing just fine and career options are popping up all the time (but like in the West, these are popping up due to my initiatives and not due to complaining about how someone else is holding me back).

I have moved beyond being an English Teacher for the most part and life is good. I live in one of the most interesting and exciting countries in the world. I do interesting work in a low pressure environment (I sure say environments as I work in more than a single place) with nice and supportive people. The only downside is there are a couple of old bitter farang English teachers who come around once in awhile to tell me how miserable I should feel. Sorry, don’t have time to be miserable, I have a whole but-load of projects going on and I am busy enjoying living a full good life here in Thailand.   

Thais are not out to “get the farangs.” In 95% of the cases, if you do your job well and make a good effort to get along with the system the schools will bend over backwards to keep you. The ones with all the problems are usually the teachers the schools don’t really care if they stick around or not.

Smokinsa’s post seems like something out of the communist manifesto. This is capitalist and fast growing Asia, not the stagnant economy of a western welfare state. Has any farang ever benefited from whining and crying about the Thai system? Has any farang ever benefited from working hard and adapting to the Thai way while working in Thailand. I know of plenty of examples of yes to the second question but have yet to see a single yes example to the first.

Thailand is Thailand, don’t like it, so what. I personally don’t feel very comfortable working and living in the middle of Arab culture. This is not a dig against the Arabs, it is just the culture and me don’t mix. Guess what, I don’t work in the Middle East. So there is no problem.

It is OKto whine everyone once in awhile to let off steam, but one should spent 98% of one’s efforts on something constructive and only about 2% on non-constructive bitcing and moaning. Seems to me there are a whole lot of English teachers who have the percentages turned around.

I’m sure there will be those who will respond and tell me how bad life in Thailand, and life in general, is, and there will probably be some people who will try to justify their bitcing and moaning, but they ain’t goin to convince me. I will continue to see the positive and move my life and career forward and enjoy my life. If there are others who choose to spend their efforts in whining and moaning and being miserable, so be it. I guess they won’t be convinced by my posting either. 

Cheers

PS WHAT HAPPENED TO MY OTHER POSTS?

[Mods-Rockers]

Have to agree with this IMO a union would do more harm than good. the well qualified teachers will not lose out but those with slightly iffy pieces of paper might find themselves under a very bright spotlight if they start organizing, and lets face it a union would want credability and thus could/would not be able to support the illegal types.

[wake]

.


  Have you ever heard of the Ministry of Labor?

If you are here legally and have a legal contract, they will go to bat for you.



 "and lets face it a union would want credability(sic) and thus could/would not be able to support the illegal types"

           

SHAZAAM ----> There goes 60% to 70% of the membership pool.

  These union types oughta wake up and smell the coffee.  They way they cling to their equal oppertunity employment dogma is so seventies. This kind of thing is why I left my country and came here.  If you are a good teacher who puts energy and immagination into lessons that involve the students on several different levels, schools will fight to keep you. (just like you said nota)

   The idea of the bunch of semi-literate galoots that form the majority of ex-pat English teaching staff here in Thailand ever getting together for a meeting is not only rediculous, but verges on the farcically absurd.

   Here's a tip, smokey...  offer free beer.

    So how about this scenario?   The lovely legitimate union teachers (with their experience and qualifications) walk out of a school because of unfair what-ever.  PRESTO -  The school hires a crew of backpacker scabs from under a rock on Koh San Road and WHERE ARE THE STUDENTS NOW?  Have the union teachers done right by them?  Have they?  If you profess to care so much for the students, this should be a tough question to answer.

    And HEY, smoker, don't forget.  This is Thailand.  You make enough noise and cause enough problems and you will be found floating in a canal somewhere.  Word.


wake


~

[Mods-Rockers]

My old granddad was a dyed in the wool (the kind that would make Red Ken look like  Thatcher’s lapdog) staunch union chappie, quite high up in the early TUC, and given an honorary life membership when he retired. Yet when he saw what the unions were doing to the shipbuilding industry in the UK (many of you may be too young to remember that the UK had one of the great shipbuilding industries) he quit the tUC and burned all his memorabilia and became a tory. To his dying day he swore that unions had become the vassal of the lazy man and were killing industry and thus the nation. Looking back at the UK now it seems he was right, no ship building to speak of, no coal, no steel, no car making, ah what’s the worth of going on.
If they unionize I will be a scab and proud of it.

 BTW thanks Wake for noticing the spelling error. Forgot to do a spell check.

[smokinsa]

Hi again. I am pleased that there have been respnses to this post...even if not all positive...it shows there are people willing to make comment at least. Thanks especially to notanewbie. You are well written and have important principles that Thais can learn from. Thinking of '#1' IS very important and Thais certainly DON'T owe any farrangs anything.

There will not be a union or 'communist' style movement as suggested by some. There are certainly several teachers who have the correct and gratuitous qualifications and are 'over qualified' to work here. Thanks to those, then this post has been a blessing in disguise....maybe it only applies to those teachers who are 'under qualified' but have the passion to make a difference to Thailand's bilingual future. So, for those of you to whom this post doesn't apply, thank you and farewell.

To the remainder: Between 60% and 70% of you, (as indicated by a kind reply from Wake), teachers who are not 'real and legal' teachers, living in Thailand DO however need to work together in order to live in an acceptable level retainable employment. There is no point in moving schools as most schools offer a simliar belief system...It is in the culture...not the business. This constant moving between schools is not only unhealthy for the childrens' understanding of qualities such as 'commitment'  and consistent role modelling etc, but it also damages farrangs' reputation as retainable teachers. Don't run as teachers have done for years, and don't FIGHT either. Communicate and mediate with the Thais. Yes......we can always compare ourselves to the Thai beggar on the streets and feel glad for having what we have, but that will only bring us to a lower level of seeing a healthy prospective future for this kingdom. After all, if teachers compared themselves to the lesser-blessed and accept it as the norm', then what future does this beautiful country hold for us and the Thai community? What this post is implying to those who are being treated unfairly is to unite in a non-confrontational manner and stand by staff who are being abused by Thai admin. Not only if YOU are singly being victimised, but as a group of teachers with the same common goal. Abuse is a harsh word, but where in your country have you heard of such verbal re-enactments as you have read in these posts? No, I understand it's no use to compare and change Thailand to the U.S. or another western democratic community, but if we are asked for our talents as bilingual teachers, this place MUST represent some of the democratic qualities we have back home. After all, these are the qualities that make Thailand and OUR original home developed...and Thailand a developing country.

To those who have posted, I thank you greatly. I am not interested in wordiness and political litigation. To be honest, I am one of those teachers who has an authentic piece of paper but once I wasn't and saw various true and ethical teachers swamped by the admin in some schools. These teachers were not only naturally gifted with Language, but also felt a sincere need to be here for the children. I don't think of only 'number one' because this negates our roles as teaching role models and our purouse of being here.

Let's hope that the remaining 115 posters who have seen this post and not yet replied have their say in the real world. The power of suggestion has, at the very least, been propelled and some change will surely take place.

Best Regards to You all.

Yours,

Smokn'

[Uncle Che]

Hey. I am with the teachers. I like your posts, keep them up. The way I look at it, we teachers are all in this together. The thing I hate the most is lackey teachers who do their boss' bidding. They are willing to stab their fellow teacher in the back in order to get just a little bit ahead of the others. I have seen it in any office with more than a couple of farang teachers.

[Notanewbie]

UC

I have seen this in a couple of cases as well. But we need to be careful in tarring everyone with the same brush. If you are an employee, doing your bosses bidding does not make you a lackey, helping your boss screw over others and helping your boss do unethical business practices does. I strongly caution against taking an "Us versus Them" attitude. Us, farangs teachers are not natural enemies of them, Thais in general and Thai school administrators in particular. It is better to think in terms of partnership. Schools want (But rarely need) farang teachers to create an international image and to provide a type of education that compliments the education provided by Thai teachers. Most teachers do not have the desire or ambition to start or run their own skills or perform the other functions Thai administers and school owners do. School and teachers are a natural partnership that should create win-win situations. Smokinsa wants us to take a confrontational unionist attitude towards our partners. I reject that attitude and believe it is at the heart of most Thai-farang business relationship problems. No one can make you take "abuse" or allow yourself to be mistreated for an extended time but yourself. A school that mistreats its staff will have to pay the penalty of loses good teachers and getting stuck with those who have no other options. A teacher needs to take charge of his own life and career, and not blame all one's problems on "them" (whoever them happen to be) and wait for some pie in the sky "teachers power" movement that will transform the Thai educational system into a teacher's utopia. Does anyone here know what the Thai educational system was like 20 years ago? There have been amazing changes to the system and the changes are continuing at a very fast pace. It is amazing how some many farangs complain about there being no changes and there is such a need for change in the Thai educational system while working in jobs that were not even available 5 years ago. Teachers need to step back and take a broader view of the system they are working in. However so many take a snapshot view on the Thai educational system and compare it to some idealized version of a western educational system that never was. I have working relations with a number of western university as well as a number of Thai ones, there are differences between Thai and Western schools, but it is a delusion to think the western system works perfectly in the west, and the idea that transplanting our way that was created in a different cultural environment to Thailand is not at all realistic. Teachers are not automatically right in all teacher administers conflicts, nor are the teachers always wrong. But teachers need schools and schools need teachers. Schools are not out enemies. Without the massive changes in the educational system in Thailand 75% of the teachers living here would not have the option to as their jobs would not have been created.

So smokinsa, good luck with your pie in the sky dream, but my predication is it will never happen and wouldn't have any bearing on the satisfaction of a single teacher in Thailand.

[Hooded_Claw]

At any ESL organisation in Thailand there is almost invariably:

1) 20% of the teachers who are new, and so basically do what they are told.
2) 20% who are leaving within a few months, have gone through varying degrees of inconvenience or despair and come out the other side alive. No point rocking the boat now.
3) 20% who are just happy getting what they want from wherever they get it in the evening, and trying to keep as low a profile at work as possible.
4) 10% who are happy.
5) 10% unable to string a cogent sentence together, so it's impossible to tell which category they fall into.
6) 10% who are severely pi$$ed off.
7) 10% whose membership of the six above categories varies on an hourly basis.

Good luck with the union! 

[smokinsa]

Thank you kindly for your respones Uncle Che, Nota and Hood.
Che, thanks for recognizing the need. Nota, please re-read my previous posts where I stressed this will not be a union. This needs no label and a union is a label with a mixed history. Hood, your stats are cool and also suggest that most are not happy...thanks. There is already a mentality of 'them vs us' in many schools so that element can't be further created by what teachers could do to stick together. I am referring not only to the blending of all farrang and Philippino staff but also the ill treatment of the frighetened Thai staff members....but one thing at a time. If we constantly compare to what was twenty years ago we have less reason to move forward. Having said the 'them vs us' is already quite prevelant in Thailand, if you are in a school that doesn't show it gratuitously then be grateful...obviously your qualifications are much needed and there either doesn't exist that mentality or you have sufficient leverage on the school to make them smile and nod. Enjoy it while the going is still good. To be honest with you, I do understand this sounds revolutionary but imagine if it worked! Everything starts with an idea. The idea is already working in some scools I know of in the Sarasas chain, (where it is sorely needed), but it needs to be practiced in many schools where there are unjust practices being created and maintained. As I mentioned earlier, changes are taking place at some schools where the Thai admin has created a problem throughout the school and teachers have calmly voiced that it is inappropriate. The changes, not always however, were rectified by Thai admin without loss of face etc and the teachers were happy. The light bulb was a pie in the sky as was the woman's vote. This is musch, much easier....because it's already proving to work. So, to those of you supporting the teachers already doing this, PLEASE have a small meeting with your fellow team members today or tomorrow and mention these posts, or even better......discuss the problems and communicate with Thai admin TOGETHER instead of seeking out another school...again.

Smokn'

[Notanewbie]

smokey

Come back in 6 months and then a year to let us know how your non-union union is coming along. I'll lay five to one nothing substanial we have been created. Any takers? Of all the problems there are in the world, treatment of foreigner teachers in Thai schools is not one of the most pressing. You can have your us versus them mentality, I prefer to think there is just us without a them.

Cheers

[Hooded_Claw]

And you might wanna tone down the evangelism. 

[smokinsa]

Teachers have already started so there's no need to trouble yourself with waiting six months. At least three schools I know have made their situation better by mere communication in a group form to Thai admin who sometimes didn't even know their decisicions were out of line, (ie goal post moving). If nothing IS done, then in six months this country's education system and individual schools will probably have retained very few of its existing good teachers...after all, many are here for the long term and don't reaaaallly want to constantlly change schools. I wish all the teachers who have viewed this post and those viewing it now the best with making their situation and school issues better. For those who aren't interested, I hope you don't have to constantly change schools once things become 'intolerable' but you'll come to realize, if you already haven't, that most schools have a similiar mentality. (Same same but different). For that reason alone, it doesn't make sense NOT to stick together and do this!

Here are the steps some teachers with no farrang representaion have taken. Before taking these steps, please ensure you have made a formal request to either reinstate foreign coordinators, or to have them employed in the first place:

If none of that works:

1. Pass the word, or a letter around to all farrang teachers inviting them to meet after/in school for a short time.

2. In the meeting, invite people to express any ill feelings about the school and any problems affecting farrang teachers.

3. Appoint an experienced teacher who is a team player and is obviously willing and able and holds sufficient raport skills with both Thais and farrangs. This teacher should BE a teacher as opposed to admin staff so there's a genuine desire for change and no one dissolving in to a 'lackey'.

4. Make a unanimous decision that all staff will support this teacher when he/she asks for anything from Thai admin. His/Her job will be to meet once a week, or when necessary, with Thai senior admin, to discuss any grievances such as contract dishonouring, salary problems, leave changes, unfair dismissal, etc. The main purpose for these meetings is to bring to light problems effecting the majority of your staff but individual cases can also be heard.

5. If your school is large then appoint a person in each staff room to meet with the nominated person in order to communicate problems so he/she passes them on in the meeting with Thai admin.

6. DO NOT abuse this system. If a teacher has broken a nail, please don't pass it on to Thai admin. This system is new and once enough schools do it, it will be the new norm'.

Get excited people....changes have already sterted

Smokin'

[Johnny Rotten]

.


  Have you ever heard of the Ministry of Labor?

If you are here legally and have a legal contract, they will go to bat for you.

Agree 100% with Wake. You go to the local education office with your complaint, they investigate. You have two options: 1. they chase and try to obtain a compromise settlement for you, or 2. they forward your complaint to the labour court who will have a solicitor (free!!!) prepare your case. Then it's up to you to go to court and convince the judges. The judges use a fair amount of common sense and certainly do not appear to back the school just because they're Thais.

It's fast, cheap and effective. Certainly a lot more effective than farang trying to pressure a school in to doing something. Also, from my experience, the average teacher doesn't give a shit about his 'brothers'.

[Hooded_Claw]

Get excited people....changes have already sterted :)Smokin'

Just wondering, will you be claiming credit for every time teachers interact with their superiors, leading to a succesful outcome?

Are you really suggesting that talking to your boss if you're not happy about something is the result of a sea change in thinking that you've initiated?

If so I'll be sure to let you know of any good news at my school that is attributable to you.

The comedy potential of this is almost daunting.

[NamTok]

   The difference between teaching in Korea and Thailand is the proverbial difference between day and night. Korea is a good model for foreign teachers in Thailand to reference. Of course, Korea is a developed country while Thailand is a "developing" country and the difference between the respective cultures of Northeast Asia and Southeast Asia are radical.

   As I'd previously posted, while I was lead (secondary) foreign teacher at Sarasas Ektra, the head of secondary told me that the director of Ektra, who is a son of the Sarasas patriarch, had told him he (the director) would fire the entire foreign staff if any attempt or effort were made by foreign teachers to create any kind of unity of any sort "against" the school. 

   The argument in favor of teacher unity is the better argument for several reasons.

   Any school that would fire its entire foreign staff (a credible statement at Sarasas Ektra) would demonstrate its utter disregard of the students. Owners of schools in Thailand for years already have been showing their utter disregard of the education of their own students. Students in Thailand have always suffered in their education because of foreign teacher turnover. Each day teachers in schools throughout Thailand leave without notice because of their disgust toward the ownership/leadership of the schools.
   For example, several years ago I asked my Grade 12 (M6) English class at Sarasas Ektra how many foreign teachers they'd had, including those who'd simply up and left without notice. I asked for a rough, off the top of their head estimate. They said about 80. That's one class of students who'd started at Ektra in their Grade 7 (M1) year, the year Sarasas Ektra opened. They took about 5 seconds to spontaneously and almost unanimously say they'd had "about" 80 different foreign teachers in their six years at Sarasas Ektra! I asked the class how many times they'd had a new teacher of the same subject during one school year. That one stumped them. They said that had happened too many times to have a count. 

   During my last two years at Sarasas Ektra (I resigned effective 31 January 05), the secondary department had had two excellent staffs of teachers. The two different staffs, each year, were highly qualified, experienced, dedicated teachers. In each of the two years almost every one of each year's staff quit. At that point, I had to conclude that Sarasas Ektra, because of its anti-farang teacher attitude and policies, couldn't ever keep a secondary foreign staff that was highly qualified, highly competent, highly dedicated, experienced (some were retired teachers from their own respective countries) and overall excellent educators who were well-received by the students.

   I want to say more on this topic and I shall. But at the moment time is short and I have to run. But the idea of teacher unity (without a "union" of any sort), based on the Korean model---which I'll discuss later---is an excellent one for Thailand, even tho the two peoples have radical differences of culture and society.

   The problem in Thailand of teacher turnover at schools hurts students immeasurably each day, has done so for decades and shall continue to hurt students in Thailand until and unless foreign teachers can bond in some way to affect changes in our teaching conditions and terms of employment. We are the only ones who can or could do it. The owners of the schools aren't going to. The students are too deferential. So, what does that make us who are the foreign teachers? What besides disorganized individuals?!?

[Sadly-confused]

   For example, several years ago I asked my Grade 12 (M6) English class at Sarasas Ektra how many foreign teachers they'd had, including those who'd simply up and left without notice. I asked for a rough, off the top of their head estimate. They said about 80. That's one class of students who'd started at Ektra in their Grade 7 (M1) year, the year Sarasas Ektra opened. They took about 5 seconds to spontaneously and almost unanimously say they'd had "about" 80 different foreign teachers in their six years at Sarasas Ektra!

One class in 6 years of education had 80 different teachers? That’s more than 1 new teacher a month, someone, somewhere is making a gross exaggeration it seems.

   During my last two years at Sarasas Ektra (I resigned effective 31 January 05), the secondary department had had two excellent staffs of teachers. The two different staffs, each year, were highly qualified, experienced, dedicated teachers. In each of the two years almost every one of each year's staff quit. At that point, I had to conclude that Sarasas Ektra, because of its anti-farang teacher attitude and policies, couldn't ever keep a secondary foreign staff that was highly qualified, highly competent, highly dedicated, experienced (some were retired teachers from their own respective countries) and overall excellent educators who were well-received by the students.

And yet they kept you for 6 years despite, the fact that they publicly caned you in assembly? What does that imply?

[Notanewbie]

One of the biggest delusions of those advocating teacher unions, or non-union teacher unions, or whatever they want to call them for foreign teachers is they assume that all other teachers have the same goals and outlooks as the person doing the promotion. There is a Thai teachers union, I don't know if it has made many inroads at private schools or if it restricted to only government schools. But it is not a union in the Marxist sense like that which smokingthegoodstuff wants to form.

Can anyone define teacher? It is easy when we stay at the abstract level that a teacher is someone who teaches. But we can include people teaching small children how to write big "A" and little "a" as well as someone supervising Ph.D. students in research on applied physics under the title teacher. Some teaching jobs would be considered "professional" positions and others would be closer to "trade" or blue collar work. Foreigners coming to Thailand to teach fall into a number of general categories. There are the young kids wanting to gain a little international experience and have some fun living abroad before settling down to a career, there are retirees who want to have something rather stress-free to do in their later years, there are professional teachers with real qualifications who want to practice their craft here, there are a few in academia who teach at universities and engage in research and publishing, there are sex-pats who teach to pay for their lifestyles, there are middle-aged men who's lives have fallen apart back home and have come to Thailand for a fresh start, there are those who see teaching as a stage in life to do before launching their own business here in Thailand, and of course most people probably straddle one of more category.  Some are here for the long-term while others are just passing through. Great thing about teaching in Thailand is there is room for all the above and more. 

If you are here for the long-term, it is of vital importance to find a good fit. I doubt many people who are happy with their jobs world-wide are with the first organization they first started with. If you are just here for a year or so, it is quite easy to just ignore the negative stuff, put in your hours and get on with your reason for being in Thailand after you clock out. But if you plan to stick around, you ought to find the type of teaching that fits your lifestyle and personality.

Not every foreigner in Thailand is planning to stay here for a longish period of time and wants to continue to work at one of the most notorious chains of bilingual schools year after year. Therefore a union built on these assumptions will only work for the minority of teachers with these goals.

Ok, I'll make it 10 to 1 there will be no official teachers unions for foreign teachers in Thailand within the next year. Smokingthegoodstuff, willing to put some money on your idea? It is 2006, not 1930. Socialism is on the way out and union membership is dwindling world-wide. Organizing foreign teacher in Thailand is probably not a very likely place for a rekindling of the world-wide socialist movement. 

But talking about how teachers are victims and how this pipe dream will solve all one's problems is much easier than actually doing something that will make an individual's life and career better. So I hope this dream of yours gives you some comfort or feeling of purpose or some other intangible benefit because it has not chance of producing anthing tangible.

PS. Ok, I promise this is my last word on this topic

[smokinsa]

I think all that needs to have been said by me is in previous posts and those of us who recognize the need for change will take action and those to whom it doesn't apply or who don't want to; full respect either way.

The fact that we're talking about this mounts up evidence that changes ARE required. Namtok had a valid point: Thais don't look kindly at farrangs speaking out against the school so this must be done a) in a manner of strong diplomacy, b) without a 'them and us' mentality, c) with more than a couple of teachers. I received word from a reliable source at a Sarasas school that his school, (which employed over 100 teachers at the time and more now), has the capacity to only employ about 3 to 4 quality teachers at most weekly....as per his experience in the hiring department. I'm sure if the school fired all or most of the teachers, they'd probably sweep the fishing net to Timbuktu and get whatever white face came back in to the boat.

So, if your school is part of a chain like Sarasas, do it together as whole-heartedly as possible. If your school is small, you probably won't have a massive need for taking massive action because the smaller schools, generally, sustain better levels of quality control and teacher retainment.

Thanks for all your supporting posts and especially for Namtok and Che's supporting words. Please remember that if this applies to you, then it applies to many, many teachers in Thailand. Please understand that the hardest work has already been done....this is already going on in selected schools and not because of my instigation. People have already been doing this and making life better for all. Let's all work as a team for the greater good of Thailand's education and our retainability as teachers.

Enjoy the change!:)

Smokin'

Ps: Namtok, please correspond further about Korea's situation... we are open to all healthy ideas. Thanks!

[NamTok]

To Sady-confused,

   What does that imply, you ask?

   Should I respond in 25-words or less, or can I have more words?
   
   May I inquire: What does your question suggest?

[Sadly-confused]

To Sady-confused,

   What does that imply, you ask?

   Should I respond in 25-words or less, or can I have more words?
   
   May I inquire: What does your question suggest?

Well limiting you to 25 words might not be a bad idea even a 100 words would not be too bad, I have noticed that you do tend to go on ad nauseum if left unchecked, the number of times you have titillated us with your tales of sadomasochism and your public caning being a case in point.

You stated that the school went through good teachers at a fair clip often two batches a year, yet they kept you there! You state you stayed because you loved the kids yet you eventually left! The rumor mill has it that you moved down south but soon left/ were pushed depending on who is asked! Yes indeed there appears to be many things that could be implied from your posts, so maybe I am just asking for a definitive explanation.
Toodle pip old fruit.

[hero]

Keep it clean guys or we'll be in sour gripes before we know what happened - that would be a shame now wouldn't it? 

Hero

[NamTok]

    Thank you, hero. I'll pass on any further contact with Sadly-confused.

[Tainted-Teacher]

Smokinsa.

For Your Information.

There was a case a few years ago in a well-known  private Bangkapi school, where 30 Thai teachers complained about working conditions.
The administration agreed to their demands, then at the end of the term they were all sacked.

Like Notanewbie says."If you son't like how you are being treated, move on."

[NamTok]

   Regret being so, so slow to respond about the Korea model of teacher-school relations. I'm not sure however that the situation in Korea as I knew it in Korea is transferable to Thailand, the main reason being that in Thailand there are so many propriatary schools owned by arrogant and self-governing families. There are private, family-owned schools in Korea, but the vast majority of Korean learners go thru government schools.
    A foreign teacher in Korea teaching in a government school is given respect, materials, has textbooks, curriculum etc. We know the vast contrast to that in Thailand in the family-owned schools.
    What did we do in Korea in respect to communication between foreign teachers (there refered to as 'native speakers'). First, in our city, Gwang-ju, one guy approached the Korean at the City School Department in ultimate charge of us to propose that he liaison between the 44 native speaker teachers and the Gwang-ju City Schools.
   We teachers accepted this but he began to slack off and began to communicate the School Department's views and positions more than ours. Consequently, a rump group of three which included myself went to meet with the same Korean City Schools official. Communication at that point became more two-way. But we really didn't have the complaints or concerns that teachers do in Thailand, either in the government schools or in the family-owned schools here.
   It took me a long time to get back to this thread because the more I thought of it, the less was the possibility that any viable two-way contact could be established at schools in Thailand. Both of the private schools at which I've taught over 8 years in Thailand tell you (the teachers) that the meetings of their respective Boards of Directors are closed.
   Korea, by long ago having established a universal K-12 government school education simply has a different system and attitude. In Thailand it's still Old World stuff, ie, the owner is the king and no one, especially a foreigner, questions him or his operatives.
   The Korean "model," as it were, might apply to Thai government schools, but surely would result in massacres of foreign teachers at the family-owned schools.
   The question then becomes is there a family-owned group of schools that might be more enlightened than the typical one? Could a small say, 3-member group of foreign teachers approach the family and propose a system of two-way communication. (In the US for decades, the United Auto Workers Union always went first to the Ford Motor Company to negotiate new contracts because it was well-known that historically (at least after the skinflint Henry himself passed on) Ford MC was more reasonable about and agreeable to the concerns of its workers. Surely there must be one Thai family that owns schools that might be approachable in this way.
   Any candidates?  (I can rule out Sarasas----hahaha!!!!)

[floorpotato]

A labor or trade organization for teachers in a place Thailand would be useless at best, counter-productive (dangerous?) at worst. However, information can be a powerful tool and this web site has proven that. Perhaps teflwatch (or someone else) could create a single list of language schools so that all interested teachers could send in a simple, color-coded, feedback grade for every school that they have taught at: green for exemplary, yellow for acceptable and red for shameful. Turnover rates could be similarly coded (green for low, yellow for average, red for high). Every web site member would be limited to 1 feedback per school. Simple. Democratic. Certainly, there is room for abuse, but it would be no less reliable than other message boards. Chances are that many teachers looking for work would eagerly rely on  such a list. If the list was properly publicized, it would provide a very real incentive for schools to clean up their acts. Knowledge is power. 

[Thai Me Up]

I'm a former member of both the New York State Teachers Union (part of the AFL-CIO) and California Teachers Association.  Teachers unions are political entities that have little or nothing to do with the individual rights of teachers in America.  American school administrators can make a teacher's life a living hell, regardless of union reps, teaching contracts and tenure.  Who are school union reps anyways?  They're just other teachers who have one more thing to do during the day, and they are NOT professional negotiators, litigators or professional advocates by any stretch of the imagination.

School districts can declare bankruptcy and lay off even tenured teachers and abrogate any number of contract-agreed provisions.  Teachers unions rarely, if ever, go on strike because district management and union leadership sleep in the same bed.  Seriously - when was the last time you EVER heard of a large school district going out on strike in the USA?  1968?

As for paying union dues, especially EXORBITANT union dues, include me out.

If you don't like the treatment you receive at your Thai school, vote with your feet.  Got it?

[NamTok]

Thai Me Up:
    If one is to vote with his/her feet in respect to bad schools in Thailand, then it's guaranteed that one is going to have to do a lotta walking. From the teacher's standpoint, there are just so many bad schools in Thailand that we could find ourselves changing schools each month. You have your anti-union views and I respect that. Hell, I was vp of my local in the US and I never negotiated a thing.

   Floorpotato is right. We know knowledge is power. This site is power. It provides accountability and consequence to flagrantly lawless owners of schools. The system Floorpotato proposes might be an excellent one; I think many teachers if not every teacher in Thailand would consult such a listing and its coded info. The info would derive from we teachers. Teacher-to-teacher communication via  TeflWatch. Best suggestion I've heard so far.

[hero]

Every web site member would be limited to 1 feedback per school.

Now there's an idea...............

[ajarn farang]

Some of the comments made by teachers on this thread made me want to puke. If you disagree with someone's point of view then that is one thing and if you intend to make a valid point (and many of you have), then that is certainly welcomed. However, belittling others' attempts to propose a solution to a problem is symptomatic of being a fool, in my book.

I say that there is truth in what the OP has said. Some of you would rather take the stance of "If a bully is going to threaten me, I am going to kack myself and do as I'm told". Your mothers would be ashamed of you. How does the song go? "Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves: Britons never will be slaves"... yeah, well, you catch my drift. Then again, some of you might be Americans in which case its "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?" (ironically you were battling us at the time). Hang on a minute! I thought we were living and working in the land of the free, "thai".. "land".. Did you know that Rama V abolished slavery around 100 years ago?

The point I am trying to make is this: we all come from a tradition prouder than "Do as you are told minion lest we murder you". We have rights and in another context people have actually fought and died for those rights. Stop being such a bunch of spineless smug sychophantic cowards and have some self-respect: both for yourselves and for those whom you seek to educate.

[ajarn farang]

PS Have a nice day!

[Gonzo]

While not as militant as ajarnfarang on this issue I agree with his sentiments and that of the op. It is high time that this issue is discussed openly amongst foreign teachers in Thailand. The 'divide and conquer' management style died with the workhouses of Victorian England. It died for good reason, it was counterproductive and inhumane.
In recent years the red tape in Thailand has been getting more complicated. I believe the Thais are trying to lift their infrastructure up a notch in an attempt to regulate and control education more effectively. If nothing is said or done by foreign teachers soon then we will be steamrollered into accepting as 'law' what is patently unacceptable working conditions.
We don't need a political union; we need support for when the kaka hits the fan. We need an organization that can intervene with school administrations that are acting illegally and inform them that they either better make amends for their transgressions or engage a good lawyer as they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

[ajarn farang]

All we are saying, is give peace a chance! 

PS I did not come to bring peace but to bring a sword. 

[admin]

I agree with you, Hero. When I saw the comment yesterday I hit the web looking to add that functionality. Before next Friday we will have that functionality on the site. It is on the test site right now where I am testing it out. I just haven't decided how to implement it over here yet. I want it to look good, at least better than it does right now.

More than likely, I will create several new blog categories, schools in Thailand, schools in China, schools in etc. Users will be allowed only one vote per ip address and they can give the school from 1 to 5 stars. I will add 3 to 5 schools a week to the list and the list will be searchable on the Google site search we already have.  I am now going through the logisitics of adding it with my limited web server experience.

[hero]

I guess it all depends how you perceive the problems.  I observe the biggest problem in all Thai schools to be poor management (there may very well be "bad apples" who actually try to make life hard for foreign teachers, just that I haven't observed them).  In fact, that is even a rash sentiment because it depends upon your perception of management, Thais understand something very different from the term "management" than I do.

Would a teachers' union improve/change Thai management style?

Where farang managers are concerned the problem is almost worse.  Most often farang managers are simply not managers, they are promoted teachers (not usually career-long teachers either).  They are in the impossible situation of trying to satisfy Western teachers' expectations of their manager with Thai style bureaucracy.

I guess a union could solve this problem.  I mean the teachers' union would be proactive in organising seminars and training programs for its members, right?  Obviously all of the teachers would be prepared to pay quite high union dues to fill their coffers in the early days, right?

Ajarnfarang, from my point of view it's a great idea - it's just that it's completely unworkable.  I don't scoff at your principles, but, being honest with yourself, how many teachers do you know that would be prepared to spend 1500 baht a month minimum on union dues?  How many people do you know that are prepared to dedicate all of their time setting up the project (writing letters, visiting schools, meeting government officials, designing websites, accounting etc. etc.) for minimal expenses?

It's very easy to say "I think a Teachers' Union's a great idea," and then start namecalling at people who disagree with you, very easy!

Personally, I'd be very interested to join a union, I have always belonged to trade unions in the past.  I'd be prepared to pay union dues but only if somebody with integrity could convince I'd get any benefit from it!  I'm not prepared to give up my free-time for the project, frankly because I'd consider it wasted effort - I don't think there are enough interested parties to warrant giving the idea a second thought.  I think some teachers here deserve better than they are getting at the moment, perhaps I include myself in this.  The problem is that the vast majority of people don't give a shit.

BTW, ajarnfarang as a proponent of the union that would serve teachers, you don't seem very considerate or diplomatic.  When trying to rally people together, surely it's better to build bridges than burn them

[the horse]

BTW...
If there was to be some sort of union or teaching-teamsters wouldn't that eliminate a great majority of teachers in thailand as most do not possess the qualifications including teaching  (ESL) experience, degrees, etc that would legitimize such a (credible?) union.
Also, what about the issue of legal/working status as it is apparent that probably 95% of all teachers here don't have the required paperwork, visas, etc. to legally work in the country.
You would also need to do minimal background checks so as to avoid members who are teaching in thailand in order to avoid the law, govt, etc in their home country which could backlash on the whole effort.
Most importantly, the Thai govt would want a union composed and represenbted by farangs that contribute something to the country and economy beyond STD's and liquor sales, this again goes back to the issue of accountability and qualifications.
Think rationally about this: would you honestly want to be grouped together with some of the umentionables living and teaching here that would want be part of union just to protact thmeslevs from coming into work hung over too many times or getting caught soliciting sex from their students?
Lastly, you need to distinguish if you are going to create a union for teachers or ajarns as both are very disinct and different titles/occupations.
I think a union for ajarns would work, the latter wouldn't.

[Uncle Che]

Concerning the rate this school functionality, with several hours of work behind me, it is now functioning. I will make an announcement on the forum in the coming days, once I get a stupid looking graphic made up for the rate this school category. I got two schools up and a new one will be added every day for the next week or so. I won't be added hall of shame schools to the list for obvious reasons.

Now to the point made by horse. I have grappled with the same issues that he talks about. By doing this site, in a way am I being lumped together with the other unmentionables in Thailand? Aren't I giving them an outlet? Aren't I helping them? Just because someone is an unmentionable, it doesn't make them any less worthy of needing protection. In fact, they may need the protection more than others. Some may say that they bring a lot of the issues onto themselves, but I am pro-teacher and I put the blame squarely on the schools. Schools knowingly employ and use alcoholic teachers and sexpats. Schools do it because a drunk white face makes them just as much money as a sober white face. The employment of these "unmentionables" is not a teacher problem, rather it is a school problem. They deserve protection just as much as any teacher does.

[the horse]

True that...
But again, there needs to be clarity on those who are "ajarns" and those who are "teachers"
guess we'll save that for another rainy sunday.
and for those of you that feel i am making a mockery of you and your profession, too bad, it is a truth here that a teacher is not an ajarn just like a teacher in the "West" is not a lecturer or a professor.

[ajarn farang]

It's very easy to say "I think a Teachers' Union's a great idea," and then start namecalling at people who disagree with you, very easy!

I welcome your dissension. Any strategy has to be thought through and if found wanting, discarded in favour of another. However, what angers me is that when one of us, in this case the OP, proposes an idea (i.e. shows some initiative) others come out of the woodwork and slam him for it (it's the snide comments I can't hack). Constructive criticism is to be encouraged, cynicism one can do without.

As I believe someone has already stated earlier, perhaps the problem is in the label "union". Why not call such an organised body an "association" and then define its parameters in the context of what the required "best-fit" is? People seem to be running scared of their own pre-conceived ideas. If there were to be such an association then surely it would be made not "in the OP's image", nor a product solely of my persuasion, but rather a concept agreeable to the majority of those in favour. In my vision, such an association would not only deal with employee rights/ industrial relations but any number of issues of importance.

What is needed is organisation and cohesion. Otherwise we are just making more work for ourselves in the long run.

BTW, ajarnfarang as a proponent of the union that would serve teachers, you don't seem very considerate or diplomatic.  When trying to rally people together, surely it's better to build bridges than burn them

I can't help that. I am a frank and genuine type but I do not bear grudges. Whatever I have to say, I will say to your face. In truth, I am very considerate; diplomacy is for politicians and politicians make hollow promises.

It's very easy to say "I think a Teachers' Union's a great idea," and then start namecalling at people who disagree with you, very easy!

I was actually very interested to hear some of the comments "against" the idea of a union, to tell you the truth.

I'd be prepared to pay union dues but only if somebody with integrity could convince I'd get any benefit from it!

I'm working on that. That said, if there were an association peeps would have to be patient. The most important steps are the first ones. I wouldn't want to put a figure on something like membership dues at this stage, except to say that if it was too dear/ a con, then the whole thing would come down like a pack of cards in any case. I believe that many people are not happy with the situation as is and would want to feel that we were moving forward, even if only by belonging to a group with common goals.

The problem is that the vast majority of people don't give a shit.

Then leave them to their own devices. Your thoughtful comments are greatly appreciated and I hope we can discuss things further soon. Ironically, I find myself in a similar situation to that which you have alluded to (and I'm up to my eye-balls).

They do their best, they do what they can
They get them ready for Vietnam
From old Hanoi to East Berlin
Commando - involved again

 

BTW...
If there was to be some sort of union or teaching-teamsters wouldn't that eliminate a great majority of teachers in thailand as most do not possess the qualifications including teaching  (ESL) experience, degrees, etc that would legitimize such a (credible?) union.

Yes, I'm afraid it would but we need to start somewhere. In my view, teachers should be working towards getting qualified and getting "legal" and an association could be instrumental in bringing this about. This is not the time nor place to get sidetracked into other debates suffice to say that I have a colleague here at what is the one of the top universities in the country who is so conceited that he thought that because he had taught English in Thailand for 15 years, he did not need to undertake professional training, yet he did not even know what CLT was (never heard of it). That to me is amateurish in the extreme and the kind of thing that concerns me.

[ajarn farang]

BTW

CLT as in Communicative Language Teaching not Corporate Language Training.

It's Saturday night and I'm staying in to do work.

[hero]

This is not the time nor place to get sidetracked into other debates suffice to say that I have a colleague here at what is the one of the top universities in the country who is so conceited that he thought that because he had taught English in Thailand for 15 years, he did not need to undertake professional training, yet he did not even know what CLT was (never heard of it). That to me is amateurish in the extreme and the kind of thing that concerns me.

This is the kind of atitude that concerns me AF.  The thing with unions is that they need to represent all of the teachers and union people need to understand that all people have different atitudes and above all motivations.  Will you continue to sneer behind the backs of teachers who don't share your youthful exuberance when you set the union ball rolling?  With 15 years experience you could probably learn a thing or two from hime (regardless of whether he is up to speed with all of the latest fads and abbreviations - one could write a book about all of the TEFL world abbreviations in daily use )

What worries me is the feeling I get that a lot of the pro-union people seem to be in it (at least partly) for seperating "good" and "bad" teachers or "qualified" and "unqualified" teachers.  Rather than bringing people together, it seems to me this would have the total opposite effect.

[Mods-Rockers]

What worries me is the feeling I get that a lot of the pro-union people seem to be in it (at least partly) for seperating "good" and "bad" teachers or "qualified" and "unqualified" teachers.  Rather than bringing people together, it seems to me this would have the total opposite effect.

In some ways I have to agree with Hero on this but then in others I may side with AJ. I am in favour of getting rid of the KS rd degree teachers that  spoil it for the rest in Thailand, but then if I were to be honest I would extrapolate that out fully and get rid of all (including myself) who did not have full teaching credential (PGCE/GTP or the like from elsewhere) from their home country.
As AJ well knows there is a teacher where we work with more MA’s than I have fingers and a PhD yet strangely all his students hate him and want to transfer, ivory towers or what? Do all those bits of paper make him a good teacher, well BS talks and students walk.
AJ you really should try and separate your personal life from what you state here, your (you and the non CLT teacher) hissy fit with each other may well cloud your judgment on this? If I had asked you yesterday to explain Krashen’s monitor function to me and you could not, would it have made you a bad teacher? If you did not know about Pennycook’s theories on World English, would it make you a bad teacher? I think not, Does knowing a little about such things make me or you a good teacher? Again I think not, but it may lead us down a  road towards becoming a better teacher.

Would a Union be a good thing for farang teachers? Well there is a union for teaching staff in Thailand and it is open to Farang as well as Thai (so I am informed), but ask yourself this questions has it helped the Thai members? Has it made their working conditions better? Has it forced the schools to pay them a decent wage? Correlate your answers to these questions and then extrapolate those answers onto this question: Would a teachers union benefit its farang members in Thailand? Nuff said!!!!

[ajarn farang]

The thing with unions is that they need to represent all of the teachers and union people need to understand that all people have different atitudes and above all motivations.

In order to have any credibility, a teachers association would have to be made up of people who are qualified to do the job and legally permitted to work here. Perhaps the minimum requirement to begin with would be a work permit. If others saw benefit in joining then they could work towards meeting the requirements. Perhaps for individuals who have been "learning on the job" then rather than teaching them to suck eggs in the form of a CELTA, some sort of testing system could be set up and a syllabus published for teachers to cover.

...all people have different atitudes and above all motivations.

Appreciated. Next!

Will you continue to sneer behind the backs of teachers who don't share your youthful exuberance when you set the union ball rolling?

No, I'll say whatever I have to say to their faces. If they can't be arsed then they'll be poorer for it. You get out what you put in.

With 15 years experience you could probably learn a thing or two from him.

Agreed! In fact, one of the innovations that I want to bring about in the context of my own workplace is lesson observations (nothing new but new to us). I am keen to observe this very same teacher as having spoken to him at length, some of his techniques sounded very interesting and I am certain there are things which I could learn from him that would be of benefit. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

(regardless of whether he is up to speed with all of the latest fads and abbreviations - one could write a book about all of the TEFL world abbreviations in daily use)

It's not a latest fad, CLT has been a cornerstone of MFL teaching for the last 20-30 years and it's one of the things that you are taught as part of CELTA/ TESOL cert course. This is so typical of Thailand, that teachers go about their business in the belief that they know it all and they don't even know the basics. WE ALL NEED TRAINING AND PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT. I am desperate to learn more about my job and I would like to do the Dip TEFL but I do not have 150K. I have explained this to my colleague and I have put a brief explanation about CLT on the network (I did this in my own time to assist my colleague). We can all learn more; we all need to learn more; we can all learn something from each other. Next!

What worries me is the feeling I get that a lot of the pro-union people seem to be in it (at least partly) for seperating "good" and "bad" teachers or "qualified" and "unqualified" teachers.  Rather than bringing people together, it seems to me this would have the total opposite effect.

If that is your understanding then you are completely misinterpreting me. I said that we need a starting point.

I am in favour of getting rid of the KS rd degree teachers that  spoil it for the rest in Thailand

In terms of those who have absolutely no real interest in education and only teach because they have no other choice - then "yes" that can hardly be encouraged. Nobody enjoys taking the moral high ground but there is a point when the whole thing becomes a joke. That said, I have meant some teachers here who would never have dreamed of being teachers at home and would never have had the opportunity who actually started to get into it and found that they enjoyed it - we can influence them to become better teachers. If they've got the right attitude then they're in - simple! Same as with the students.. it's not just about those that can but those who are willing and those who you need to you to get their attention and trigger their imagination. I got into university with very few qualifications and I made the most of my opportunity and I have always been grateful for this.

but then if I were to be honest I would extrapolate that out fully and get rid of all (including myself) who did not have full teaching credential (PGCE/GTP or the like from elsewhere) from their home country.

Agreed. In fact, to be perfectly lucid, one reason that I do have respect for you as a teacher is that you are committed to your own professional development through further study; however, its horses for courses and in terms of the mean level of education in Thailand, a first degree + some professional qualifications/ training is sufficient in most cases in my opinion. Those who want more can get more (and would naturally want to better their competences - I know I do). At least a WP, this means you are recognised by the state as somebody whose profession is teaching.

As AJ well knows there is a teacher where we work with more MA’s than I have fingers and a PhD yet strangely all his students hate him and want to transfer, ivory towers or what? Do all those bits of paper make him a good teacher, well BS talks and students walk.

Have you seen him teach? Students are fickle and as you yourself have witnessed, many of the students are not up to scratch and on top of this they are spoilt. They have seen teacher after teacher come and go and they are quick to judge. How can you or I make any sort of assessment on how good he may or may not be in the classroom without first seeing it with our own eyes? Of course, we can ascertain whether he is knowledgeable about teaching or not and whether he talks sense (applies logic) or not. In fact, the gentleman in question is himself the first to admit that he is not a teacher nor never has been; he is however a professional linguist and probably believes that considering all that he has learned in his life, he can surely get his head around teaching. What he probably needs then is more classroom experience. We all need both experience and training and I have never ever stated otherwise. But do not fall into the trap of the playing the popularity game - teaching is not a popularity contest and the students need to be cognizant of such.

AJ you really should try and separate your personal life from what you state here, your (you and the non CLT teacher) hissy fit with each other may well cloud your judgment on this?

 
It's nothing personal, it was just a good example of what I was talking about; an anacdoetal example. Another is (and I am not mentioning where it came from, past or present) a teacher with responsibility for Academic Writing course telling those assembled that the very term academic writing was a dumb one since all writing must be correct therefore all writing is academic and so what was the difference? Move over Rover.

Do you want more? How about the case of a top ajarn hiring an unqualified slip of a girl (i.e. no CELTA and spoke unathentic thainglish to her students, replete without unauthentic tenses, structures and pronunciation - ironically one of the most popular teachers at the school) to write the English syllabus. This was by no means a crap school. Strangely enough the end result was a pile of poop - this kind of thing has got to stop.

If I had asked you yesterday to explain Krashen’s monitor function to me and you could not, would it have made you a bad teacher?

No, but if you didn't know what "phonetics" were it would. There is a minimum that everyone should know period or they shouldn't set foot in a classroom, let alone teach for 15 years.

Does knowing a little about such things make me or you a good teacher?

Well it would appear so since there are teachers out there who believe that the only thing you can test students on as part of a language course is grammatical accuracy so perhaps they could do with brushing up (particularly when they are the ones designing courses)! In most cases, fluency is as important as accuracy - I know this myself having done a MFL degree.

Again I think not, but it may lead us down a  road towards becoming a better teacher.

Again, you need to know the basics but in general the more you know about teaching the better. That's what training courses are about - someone else takes the time and trouble of deciding what is essential or particularly relevant and what isn't and designs a syllabus around that - you know, much in the same way as we teachers do for our students as opposed to just pushing them into a library and locking the door... genial!!

Would a Union be a good thing for farang teachers?

That's what we are debating. Still, we might just be talking about two very different things since you keep saying "union" whereas I'm using the term "association".

Well there is a union for teaching staff in Thailand and it is open to Farang as well as Thai (so I am informed)

Well I wasn't aware of that, thank you, that's useful. You see! We learn things from each other in a spirit of mutual cooperation - just beautiful!

but ask yourself this questions has it helped the Thai members? Has it made their working conditions better? Has it forced the schools to pay them a decent wage? Correlate your answers to these questions and then extrapolate those answers onto this question:

Time to slit the wrists then. How about I just ignore your negativity and push on regardless. Yep, I think I'll choose option 'B'. Thanks for the concern though.

Would a teachers union benefit its farang members in Thailand? Nuff said!!!!

Says you! But then nobody would be forcing you to join therefore you are free to choose!

[floorpotato]

Admin, I really like your idea of a 5-star system for grading schools, more nuanced than my original suggestion for a 3-grade system. One vote per I.P. address is nice and should keep the fraud factor down, but will you also limit voting based to one vote per unique logon id? Thanks and good luck with this. 

[Mods-Rockers]

The only problem i see with 1 vote per ip address is that very few, if any posters will have a fully nailed up ip address. As I tend to leave my router on at all times my adress tends to remain constant, however if I turned that off everytime I shut down the PC then I would tend to change addresses as well. then if we factor in a school office and maybe 5 teachers all using the same PC or just the same connection to make posts we will have 1 who is able and 4 who are prohibited.

[ajarn farang]

Before I go, here is a note from my old Japanese teacher from Oxford Poly (a brilliant teacher who has also taught at Oxford University):

Dear Ajarn Farang,

Sorry for not replying to you earlier, but we are at the moment in the middle of Industrial Action for pay negotiation and the union members are withholding marks and boycotting exam board etc. and this is not just Brookes, but a big national scale one, and in case of Brookes, it is the time of submission of marks and exam board will be taking place next week, it is rather chaotic. Also the university has threatened the union members by VC's letter saying they will suspend the payment of salary (100%) from June.

So you see that teachers get screwed wherever we go because we are idealists and not businessmen (unless of course you teach business).
Teachers of the world unite! We gotta fight for our right to party... and.. well.. you know what I'm trying to say.

[Mods-Rockers]

Sorry, I am confused now, your former Japanese teacher is talking about union action but as you stated earlier you are talking about an "association".
What exactly is the correlation? and if there is one why did you negate it earlier?

[ajarn farang]

The correlation is thus:

(1) The teacher in question is a Japanese national living "in another man's country" as some have put it.
(2) When threatened by forces greater than herself she doesn't just shit herself and give in because
(3) she is part of an organised body, in this case a union.
(4) It's not a case of "teachers in Thailand knew what they were getting themselves into and therefore they must shut up and put up with it" - Oh contraire! You see, teachers everywhere have to stand up for themselves and often receive threats as a result - it's not only in Thailand!

If you read more of the thread you will note that I do not particulalrly like the term "union" since it throws up all manner of militant socialist images. An organised body would strive to induce improvements throughout the industry and one such area would indeed be worker representation/ rights. However, this process would take a very long time in my view so suggesting that such an organised body would right all wrongs overnight would be foolhardy. How about demonstrating to the Thais that such an organised body could contribute to the education of Thais and then step by step encompass all of our concerns.

[admin]

I see two possible paths:

1. A Foreign Expert Teacher Association of Thailand -- The association lobbies on behalf of teachers in Thailand. Membership is open to anyone who either has taught in Thailand for a year or possesses TEFL qualifications.

2. A Foreign Expert Teacher Union of Thailand -- Every teacher who is employed in Thailand as a teacher is eligible for membership and instead of just lobbying for changes, the union has the power to call strikes and demand change.

I hate being a pessimist, but #1 would probably become dominated by business interests and function more as a money making entity than a true helper of teachers. #2 would fail because well, I don't think there are enough teachers in any school that would stand together and fight for change. Too many teachers have their lives wrapped up in Thailand and are unwilling to risk what they have in Thailand by demanding any sort of change. Think of any teachers are married to locals and have children compared to other TEFL countries.

[Mods-Rockers]

The correlation is thus:

(1) The teacher in question is a Japanese national living "in another man's country" as some have put it.
(2) When threatened by forces greater than herself she doesn't just shit herself and give in because
(3) she is part of an organised body, in this case a union.
(4) It's not a case of "teachers in Thailand knew what they were getting themselves into and therefore they must shut up and put up with it" - Oh contraire! You see, teachers everywhere have to stand up for themselves and often receive threats as a result - it's not only in Thailand!

Well now lets address some of the points above:
(2) “When threatened by forces greater than herself she doesn't just shit herself and give in” one could also read into this that she does in fact doodoo herself and come out on strike because the (3) union says so and to do otherwise would leave her branded SCAB.
(4) recently an administration we both know well tried to enforce a rule whereby teachers had to produce a doctors note in case of illness of even one day, under threat of stoppage of pay for failure. Was this decision dropped in the end because of (a) union/other organized body action, or (b) simply because the teachers stood up for their rights under Thai employment law.

If you read more of the thread you will note that I do not particulalrly like the term "union" since it throws up all manner of militant socialist images.

A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet, or call a duck a swan if you like it still goes quack.

An organised body would strive to induce improvements throughout the industry and one such area would indeed be worker representation/ rights. However, this process would take a very long time in my view so suggesting that such an organised body would right all wrongs overnight would be foolhardy. How about demonstrating to the Thais that such an organised body could contribute to the education of Thais and then step by step encompass all of our concerns.

Do we need improvements throughout the industry or do we merely needs to know our rights as they stand right now, take the doctors note example above, just being able to quote chapter and verse of Thai employment law made it go away. Simple teamwork within a school should and could be more than sufficient to obtain most of what is required, and on this I have always been in agreement with what you say, unfortunately that rarely happens as we all have different agendas. Far too often there is not a problem apart from lack of understanding between the Thai and Farang , between administration and teachers, this lack of understanding leads to friction and friction leads to heated tempers, and on and on

[Mods-Rockers]

totally agree with you admin.

[ajarn farang]

2) “When threatened by forces greater than herself she doesn't just shit herself and give in” one could also read into this that she does in fact doodoo herself and come out on strike because the (3) union says so and to do otherwise would leave her branded SCAB.

That is a fair comment but no more conclusive than mine (not that it needs to be).

(4) recently an administration we both know well tried to enforce a rule whereby teachers had to produce a doctors note in case of illness of even one day, under threat of stoppage of pay for failure. Was this decision dropped in the end because of (a) union/other organized body action, or (b) simply because the teachers stood up for their rights under Thai employment law.

Yes, but hopefully you can see that the question of whether or not to have to provide sick notes, etc. was a relatively trifling one and that this is also why they let it go. You know as well as I do that there is an unofficial dictat from on high which says "if you ask for a pay rise, then you will be told to either (a) stop talking immediately or (b) clear out your desk immediately (and we have see one chap fired but mercifully reinstated in the last few weeks); this in the context of being told that we would receive a salary review after 3 months. Everybody who has asked for an increase has been fired. How much are you earning M-R? Sit well with you, the manner in which you were blagged? Perhaps by having an organised body (neutral term), there could be one representative in each work place who was well versed in Thai employment law, etc. and maybe part of the organisation's responsibilities would be to educate teachers about such things and prepare literature. Perhaps we could throw in free legal representation by top lawyers - I'll ask one of Santa's elves. It's good that you are recognising that there is strength in numbers though.

What should an organised body do? Well instead of asking me to come up with all the answers, why not try asking yourselves? The J.I.T. innovation came about as a result of more than one million suggestions from employees and managers at all levels within the Toyota corporation. Let's apply the same model to this task.

I see two possible paths:

1. A Foreign Expert Teacher Association of Thailand -- The association lobbies on behalf of teachers in Thailand. Membership is open to anyone who either has taught in Thailand for a year or possesses TEFL qualifications.

2. A Foreign Expert Teacher Union of Thailand -- Every teacher who is employed in Thailand as a teacher is eligible for membership and instead of just lobbying for changes, the union has the power to call strikes and demand change.

I hate being a pessimist, but #1 would probably become dominated by business interests and function more as a money making entity than a true helper of teachers. #2 would fail because well, I don't think there are enough teachers in any school that would stand together and fight for change. Too many teachers have their lives wrapped up in Thailand and are unwilling to risk what they have in Thailand by demanding any sort of change. Think of any teachers are married to locals and have children compared to other TEFL countries.

Paradoxically, I'm going to be even more pessimistic than you and say that the current situation is so shit that it can't possibly get any worse so what do we have to lose. It would be nice to have some self-respect, wouldn't it.

Crouchy: 'Ere Becks.. everyone is sayin' we're a load of shit and won't do much in this World Cup.
Becks: Yeah, I know. Maybe we should just pack it in, eh?
Crouchy: Sounds good to me. We'll only embarass ourselves in any case.
Becks: True. I've got Posh to worry about and the two little nippers to feed. Plus, I'm doing fine as it is, what with the dough I get from Gillette and Brylcream.

Enter Rooney. Scratching his crotch. Just shagged another Granny (a German one this time); he's got a spring in his step.

Rooney: I reckon we need to stop being so negative and play with a bit more confidence. You know, believe in ourselves, like! Look at the state of Sven, the old c*nt, and he still scores! I reckon we can do a lot better than those armchair fans make out! Maybe go on the offensive, yeah?
Becks and Crouch: Wha'? Do you really think so?
Rooney: No, only joking! I'm getting out while I still can - I'll just feign injury like Owen. Better still, can you break our leg for us like in 'Escape To Victory'?

 

 

[kenkannif]

To be fair Thailand is VERY pro-employee, very, very, very!

Just most people aren't aware of the laws and where they stand.

[ajarn farang]

Do us a favour when you get chance and post some examples of this or direct us to some sources Kenneth. I don't know too much about this. If I were fired for asking for a pay review, would the law protect me?

[kenkannif]

Mate it should be stickied a few threads above this one, it's also stickied on Ajarn.

[Mods-Rockers]

Do us a favour when you get chance and post some examples of this or direct us to some sources Kenneth. I don't know too much about this. If I were fired for asking for a pay review, would the law protect me?

See me tomorrow in work and I'll give you a copy AF

[ajarn farang]

Cheers lads.

[RobRoy]

I've QUICKLY read all of the posts on this thread and have the following observations.  I've only been here 3 years and only worked in a couple of schools, so my experience probably isn't as great as most of the posters.
1. When I first arrived, 3 teachers, as a group, approached management with their (rightly) concerns over promised work permits.  They were paid off all all went back to their respective countries.  Apparently, the next school they went to called their previous employer and heard bad news.  Two out of the three ended up going home.  So they won....and lost.

2. The OP said something about canceling van service for the farangs.  Even if its in the contract, isn't it kind of a small thing?  I personally make about seven times the wage of most of the Thai teachers I work with.  They have to take a bus or walk to school.  What do you think your coworkers (the Thai's teachers) think about your God like status because you rate special services?  Changing goal posts, schedules, lack of clear communication are to be EXPECTED!  Most of us can't fluently speak the language and none I dare say completely understand the culture.  Either accept these little realities of being in Thailand or go home.  Its really that simple.  Toto, this isn't Kansas anymore!

3. I do agree with the need for some sort of informal organization.  Teflwatch and Ajarn both provide us with this.  Telfwatch gives us good info on good and bad schools, where Ajarn provides information and advice about working and living in Thailand.  Since there's no way 90% of foreign teachers will ever meet in one place lets make these forums more informative and constructive for every teacher out there that wants to contribute.  Also, we, as teachers need to promote these forums to communicate problems and solutions with all the the members in mind.

We do need to work harder communicating the best way to overcome a problem.  A union or "formal" organization is going to do nothing but scare Thai schools if they find out the teacher is a member.  Remember, at the end of the day, there's 100 ways they can fire (I was going to use another F word) you, but only one way you can keep your job....by doing a good job.

Rob

[ajarn farang]

Either accept these little realities of being in Thailand or go home.  Its really that simple.  Toto, this isn't Kansas anymore!

I hear this kind of apologist mantra from "the enrapt" regularly. It really depends on where you work: if you work in the sticks with hicks then "yes" but if you work with peeps that are fluent in English and are supposedly at the forefront of the internationalisation of higher education in Thailand then I think it's right to expect more. Please sir, can I have some more? OK then naff off and teach yourself (or ask Dirk Diggler), I'm off!

We all have to meet in the middle because foreign teachers will no more respond to threats, etc. from on high, than Thai students will respond to being shouted at. Both sides have to interpret each others cultures effectively and meet in the middle or it won't work and we will continue going through the motions and as a professional teacher that gives me no satisfaction whatsoever.

PS Home is where the heart is.

Most of us can't fluently speak the language and none I dare say completely understand the culture.

We should definitely be learning the language and I've been here for nearly two years but haven't. That's why I have offered to teach my language to the few staff at work who don't speak English - we have to be able to communicate.

I do agree with the need for some sort of informal organization.  Teflwatch and Ajarn both provide us with this.

Neither of these two are going to make the Thais see that 40K baht per month is both unacceptable and unattractive, hence the transient nature of the workforce. As it stands, unqualified teachers often make the same as qualified teachers so there is no incentive to train or stay in Thailand. You don't get career teachers in Thailand, for the most part.

They are not going to organise training seminars either. Nor are they going to mediate with the MOE and push changes through. It needs to be agreeable to the Thais and that means it has to happen from the top down. You can't make unrealistic demands from day one.

Remember, at the end of the day, there's 100 ways they can fire you.

So you think it is acceptable to have to walk on egg shells and fear for your job everyday when your livelihood is essentially a labour of love. You don't think the students notice the long faces?

A union or "formal" organization is going to do nothing but scare Thai schools if they find out the teacher is a member.

Of course it will. Just as the southern confederation was terrified by Abraham Lincoln's policies.

Only one way you can keep your job....by doing a good job.

I see, stick your nose up their arse and fight for your breath. It has never occurred to me not to try to do a good job but that doesn't mean for one second they won't fire you. In fact, the last guy who got fired from my gaff was quoted as saying "That's the first time in my life that I have been fired for doing a good job!"
Actually, he was a little on the lazy side if you ask me but they wouldn't even give him a reference to show for one year's endeavour. They fire you for farting at my gaff - 12 teachers in 12 months. And you are basically suggesting that we all bend over? Eventually you will tire of sweating blood for $1000 a month.

[hero]

Some observations:

Neither of these two are going to make the Thais see that 40K baht per month is both unacceptable and unattractive

Can't be that unacceptable and unattractive as plenty of people are prepared to work for it!  Not enough perhaps, but there are far more English teachers working here than ever before.

the transient nature of the workforce

I think you are clutching at straws with this comment - there are umpteen valid reasons for the transient nature of the workforce.  Pay is about mid way down the list IMO.

They fire you for farting at my gaff - 12 teachers in 12 months. And you are basically suggesting that we all bend over? Eventually you will tire of sweating blood for $1000 a month.

I'd leave!  Get a better job, most people with a couple of years experience have managed to find one!  If it ain't so bad that you want to leave, then it can't be that bad, can it?

Seems to me that a lot of your motivation comes from your own personal experience with a bad employer.  Most people that I know who have had similar experiences just move on and find a better employer.  That way we collectively ensure that bad schools are left with bad teachers and those of us with something to offer find nicer places of work.

[kenkannif]

Are we by Thai law allowed to be 'Union' or 'Association' reps here??? WPs etc.

You'd end up needing a Union/Association for the Union/Association IMO!

[hero]

It's pretty much the same right across the board as far as I can see.

Absolutely not in my experience!

Are we by Thai law allowed to be 'Union' or 'Association' reps here??? WPs etc.

My thoughts exactly.  If it were to be a company, wouldn't it need to fall under Thai ownership?  Wouldn't they then have to prove that the roles within it requiring farang employees couldn't be performed by Thai people as well as sizeable assets before they could obtain WPs for their representatives?  That in itself would cost a small fortune - the only way I could see it even happening would be with a sizeable investment from some person or people, thus what we are actually asking for is a (profit-making or non-profit-making?) company to be set up to act on our behalf, funded ultimately by the teachers.

As you suggest kk, the pressure would then be on from teachers to have a body to regulate this "representative body"!  Basically, all that would be achieved would be to shift the "micro" problems that exist in schools onto a "macro" level - with all teachers out of pocket!

Are there any potentially viable ways to set up a "union" here?  I mean there is little point discussing it from a desirability point of view if it is not technically viable, right?

[floorpotato]

I see two possible paths:

1. A Foreign Expert Teacher Association of Thailand -- The association lobbies on behalf of teachers in Thailand. Membership is open to anyone who either has taught in Thailand for a year or possesses TEFL qualifications.

2. A Foreign Expert Teacher Union of Thailand -- Every teacher who is employed in Thailand as a teacher is eligible for membership and instead of just lobbying for changes, the union has the power to call strikes and demand change.

A self-regulatory, professional association of TEFL teachers might work here as long as it doesn’t view Thai schools as adversaries. Although a lame concept on the surface, it might actually have some tangible benefits. For one, it might counterbalance the terrible reputation that farang teachers have by certifying qualified teachers. It could also mediate conflicts and make constructive recommendations to Thai schools, which would gain face by dealing with a reputable group of teachers for a change. Perhaps association members could have their credentials validated along these lines: 1.) well-qualified (an actual college teaching degree or very long experience in established schools  2.) qualified (TEFL degree and a real college degree) 3.) unknown/non-member and  4.) not-qualified  (those with criminal records, fraudulent credentials and those dismissed from schools for valid moral reasons). I taught at a school where a teacher was fired after sexually assaulting a woman on premises. To my knowledge, he is still teaching at established Bangkok schools. Such an association could validate that an event occurred and put animals like that on the ‘not-qualified‘ list available for employers to see. Who knows, maybe a NGO would even throw a little money at such a group if a real effort is made to upgrade the gene pool of English teachers. How can we expect Thai school owners to respect us when we don’t even respect ourselves as a group of professionals?

[hero]

  Would such a move be likely to make life "better" for good teachers?  Or merely make problems for "bad" teachers?  How would I benefit, given that there would be schools willing to recruit teachers even from the "danger" list if they were cheaper?

IME Thai employers would perhaps prefer top employ non-members if they were to get less hassle and cheaper employees......

[RobRoy]

I've only got a couple of more questions/comments:
1.  What sort of teachers would this organization/union represent?  Would it represent only white skinned people?  My wife is a Filipina teacher, would she get the same representation as me?  The original post stated that the Filipino teachers couldn't ride the van with the farangs.  What sort of union would let one nationality of foreign teacher ride the bus while the others cruise comfortably to school in an air-con van?  What kind of "union" is this?  I guess the OP's opinion was white teachers rule!

2. Qualifications:  Degree/Tefl/Experience.  Who and how would the goal posts be set to achieve acceptance in this organisation?  Who is going to check the background of the teachers?  My wife has been teaching English for 13 years in the PI and in Thailand.  My degree is in computer science.  I'm here teaching computer science and English.  I've only been teaching English for 3 years now.  Which of us is the most qualified?  Is a PhD with 30 years teaching experience in Scotland better qualified than me when his accent is so thick no one who isn't Scottish can't understand him? 

I'm ready to hear your ideas....

[Thai Me Up]

I recently purchased and watched "The King and I" (Yul Brynner original - is this still film still banned in this country?).   

Does anyone remember the premise of this wonderful musical?  Anna, the imported English teacher, is promised a "house" as an accommodation, separate from the Royal Palace, as part of her negotiated contract with the King of Siam.  She threatens to go back to England immediately unless the King grants her an audience and honors the terms of the written agreement.  The rest of the musical continues this sly tug-of-war between Anna and the all-powerful King over the teaching contract "house" issue.  In the meanwhile, Anna learns the ways of the Siamese people and we are introduced to "Getting to Know You," "I Whistle a Happy Tune" and other Rogers and Hammerstein tunes.

Though the musical is set in 1863 Siam, the complaints on this particular thread are similar to those of Anna...a lack of understanding between Thai school administrators and their farang teachers over what a teaching "contract" actually means in Thailand.

I do not believe a teacher's union is the answer to addressing teaching woes.  However, a public forum such as TEFL Watch is part of the answer.  For schools that abuse staff, TEFL Watch offers a venue to document teacher abuse and teacher contract abuse.  Experienced teachers will steer clear of schools outed in this forum.  If an abusive school employer wants to lure competent teachers, they'll need to pay big bucks or repair their reputations before they get the staff they need.  I say "hooray!" for TEFL Watch.   

[anyonefortennis]

TMU, I agree that a union would not work, and to an extent both the TEFLWatch forum and the Ajarn forum can help answer many questions that people have and there is a wealth of experience out on the forums. Although I think anyone who steers clear of a school purely because it has been slagged on a public forum needs their bleeding head checking. TEFLWatch acts as a good early warning system, an indicator that further investigation into a certain school maybe required before seeking employment at the said school. But to dismiss a job offer on the strength of hearsay…………………………plain ridiculous.

What I would like to see is an association established for professional development of all practicing teachers / lecturers, Thais, farangs, and anyone else who is interested (and not just some half arsed attempt by a language / training school to make a few extra bob). I think to have Thais and Farangs together would actually go a long way to removing some of the barriers and problem areas.   I for one would pay a yearly fee in return for professional development and networking opportunities, although it would have to be offered in locations other than Bangkok, as I for one loathe the bleeding place.

This would offer people the opportunity to do some networking and meet people in the know. This may surprise a few people but there are some Thais out there who do a lot of work trying to improve the education system, teaching methodology, management practices, working conditions and a whole host of other areas. And they would be interested to hear of any dodgy practices out there in teacher land.

I believe working together rather than against each other is the way forward, and may be this kind of mixed professional association would help. Unfortunately there will always be a few bad apples, whether they be Thai or Farang, teachers or management.

[hero]

I think anyone who steers clear of a school purely because it has been slagged on a public forum needs their bleeding head checking. TEFLWatch acts as a good early warning system, an indicator that further investigation into a certain school maybe required before seeking employment at the said school. But to dismiss a job offer on the strength of hearsay…………………………plain ridiculous.

An excellent point, and one which is equally valid when applied in reverse to the (now locked) "let's blame everything on the website that hosts the job ads" thread!

I would like to see is an association established for professional development of all practicing teachers / lecturers, Thais, farangs, and anyone else who is interested.....I for one would pay a yearly fee in return for professional development and networking opportunities

An excellent idea!

This may surprise a few people but there are some Thais out there who do a lot of work trying to improve the education system, teaching methodology, management practices, working conditions and a whole host of other areas....I believe working together rather than against each other is the way forward

Some excellent points.  I wonder if lobbying the MoE wouldn't be a good starting place......   Of course they may not be ready to listen (yet).

[anyonefortennis]

I don't think lobbying the MOE is the best thing to do right now, given the political limbo. There are however individuals who work within the MOE (and MOE agencies such as the English Language Development Center) who are open to discussion about what may or may not be possible, in their own opinion.

I think this would be the starting point, contact people in the know, guage their opinion and formulate an action plan around this research. However, keep in mind that the whole process would take a very long time, unless you got someone with a lot of clout on board, but the end result may well be worth it.

[floorpotato]

1.  What sort of teachers would this organization/union represent?  Would it represent only white skinned people?  My wife is a Filipina teacher, would she get the same representation as me?
2. Qualifications:  Degree/Tefl/Experience.  Who and how would the goal posts be set to achieve acceptance in this organisation?  Who is going to check the background of the teachers?

1.) Farang teachers have our share of alcoholics and perverts, but very few are white supremacists. I certainly wouldn't be part of a professional organization that excluded any ethnic group. I actually consider Filipinos and Filipinas to be the most morally upstanding and hardest working of the teachers here. The problem is with the Thais, who feel that they only get their money's worth with white-skinned teachers (in partial defense of the Thais, some Indians and Filipinos/Filipinas did grow up speaking a native language other than English). 2.) Membership certification should simply be an attempt weed out criminals and frauds, perhaps with a one-time fee. Background checks by reputable companies are getting less expensive. Lots of info is even public record and available for free on the Internet. Creating a category of well-qualified members has its faults, but it might help recognize those who truly paid their dues with years of teacher training and/or much work experience.   

[Speaksoftly]

This is not really the subforum to be rehashing sexpat whinges.  I'm going to split that discussion into another thread, which I'm really, really tempted to throw into Sour Gripes but will give the benefit of the doubt for now and put it in one of the lounges.  Anyone who really wants to continue discussing unions may do so here in this thread.

[ajarn farang]

I've been deliberately staying out of the debate because I am busy and also because it is interesting and beneficial to hear from others (and add to that the fact that I had not even considered some of the points before and do not really have an opinion on them as yet).

A teachers association could also unite to help charitable causes and this in turn would the improve the image of foreign teachers in Thailand.

Farang teachers have our share of alcoholics and perverts, but very few are white supremacists. I certainly wouldn't be part of a professional organization that excluded any ethnic group. I actually consider Filipinos and Filipinas to be the most morally upstanding and hardest working of the teachers here. The problem is with the Thais, who feel that they only get their money's worth with white-skinned teachers (in partial defense of the Thais, some Indians and Filipinos/Filipinas did grow up speaking a native language other than English). 2.) Membership certification should simply be an attempt weed out criminals and frauds, perhaps with a one-time fee. Background checks by reputable companies are getting less expensive. Lots of info is even public record and available for free on the Internet. Creating a category of well-qualified members has its faults, but it might help recognize those who truly paid their dues with years of teacher training and/or much work experience.   

Well, I think there would have to be some sort of test/ criteria to be met when accepting (technically speaking) NNSs. Otherwise it could be the case that Fillipinos who can't even really speak English join the association in order to legitimise themselves as English teachers. In addition, there is already an association solely for Filipinos (Are they discriminating against us now?), it's called the FTAT. They let me join only because I am an honorary Filipino (and 'cause I paid 'em some tea money ).

[NamTok]

   It's been said that it is impossible to get all foreign teachers in Thailand in one place at one time. It well might be difficult, but I think not impossible.
    How's this?
   TeflWatch books a hotel for a 3-day holiday weekend. We each send our share of the total cost of such a conference (two days, perhaps) to TeflWatch. TeflWatch could send a registration number to each of us who pays his/her share. I'm currently in Satun province, 800 km south of Bangkok but I would attend. We could have topic meetings as well as plenary sessions. We'd meet one another and talk person to person. We'd take our ideas and experience we'd discuss in the submeetings into the plenary sessions.
   Maybe we can begin an association of some sort. Maybe not. But we can meet and scare hell out of the lawless and fraudulent owners of schools in Thailand. Sure, the owners would have their people present. Going in, we know that that is a given. So what? Owners in their ruthlesness have fired bunches of us before. Action by owners against us as a direct consequence of such a conference would be heard and felt throughout Thailand like a bomb. After all, TeflWatch can notify the press/media of the event and its nature, goals and purposes. We'd get coverage and reporting by the Thai mass media, especially the English language press. 
   I've been reading this thread for some time now with this thought in mind. I've decided to propose it at this point because I think such a conference can and should be done. TeflWatch is an organization that can do this. Perhaps Ajarn.com and TeflWatch, and other organizations, could join in organizing the event cooperatively.
   I think it can be done. It certainly needs to be done. We wouldn't need each and every foreign teacher in Thailand to attend such an event. I do believe that we'd get enough, or more than enough.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

NamTok has the right idea @ the bottom of page 5.  

Credit to 'smokinsa' for a constructive post.


Count me in.   


In addition to showing solidarity & promoting our profession,

it would also be a real riot to meet up in person once a year.


If such a conference were to take shape, I'd promote it on Dave's

and others could do the same on Ajarn.com, Thai Visa.com, etc.


Since Bangkok is the strategic hub of the country

and has the highest number of EFL teachers,

it would make sense to hold it in Bangkok.


If the first conference were successful, subsequent conferences could

be held in more exotic locales; Chiang Mai, Phuket or Koh Samui ? ? ?


We'd have to set a firm date far enough in the future -

possibly during one of the longer National holidays,

to allow people to make arrangements to attend.


As a small contribution toward the First Annual TEACH in THAILAND Conference,

here's a list of budget hotels and guesthouses in and around The Big Mango.

Most are under 1,000 and many are in the 400 to 600 Baht range.



We'd probably get a great deal by booking an entire hotel for 2 or 3 days.   



Big John's Homepage  (Big John's Guesthouse)

http://www.newjoe.de/  (New Joe Guesthouse)

http://www.winlongplace.com/  (Win Long Place)

http://www.pinnaclehotels.com/ (Pinnacle Hotels)

http://www.madrasthailand.com/  (Madras Hostel)

http://www.samran.com/main.asp  (Samran Place)

http://www.newsiam.net/  (New Siam Guesthouse)

http://www.bangkokcityinn.com/  (Bangkok City Inn)

http://www.kritthaimansion.com/ (Krit Thai Mansion)

http://www.newworldlodge.com/  (New World Lodge)

http://www.jimslodge.com/aboutus.html (Jim's Lodge)

http://www.ashaguesthouse.com/  (Asha Guesthouse)

http://www.bourbonstbkk.com/  (Bourbon Street Hotel)

http://www.siamorientalgroup.com/  (Siam Oriental Inn)

http://www.bangkoksuite.com/  (Bangkok City Suite Hotel)

http://www.eurasiahotels.com/bangkok/  (Eurasia Bangkok)

http://www.asiatravel.com/firsthouse/  (First House Bangkok)

http://www.tyha.org/map-bangkok.html (HI Hostels Bangkok)

http://www.khaosanroad.com/ (Khao San Rd Hotels & Rooms)

http://www.guesthouse-bangkok.com/  (The Urban Age Hostel)

http://www.east-thai.com/238guesthouse/  (238 Guest House)

http://www.bangkok.com/white-orchid-hotel/  (White Orchid)

http://www.khaosanroad.com/kshouse/  (KS Guest House)

http://bangkok-sahara-hotel.th66.com/  (Bangkok Sahara)

http://www.khaosan-hotels.com/  (Rambuttri Village Inn)

http://www.shambarabangkok.com/  (Shambara Hostel)

http://www.riversidebangkok.com/  (Riverside Bangkok)

http://www.sawasdee-hotels.com/  (Sawasdee Hotels)

http://www.stayandtravel.com/  (Ban Yai / Homestay)

http://www.bestbkk.com/  (The Best Bangkok House)

http://www.discovery-lodge.com/  (Discovery Lodge)

http://www.5-rama-nine-54.com/  (5 Rama Nine 54)

http://www.thaicozyhouse.com/  (Thai Cozy House)

http://www.stardomegroup.com/  (Star Dome Inn)

http://www.nanaplaza-inn.com/  (Nana Plaza Inn)

http://www.woodlandsinn.org/  (Woodlands Inn)

http://www.nasavegashotel.com/ (Nasa Vegas)

http://www.silomcityinn.com/  (Silom City Inn)

http://www.woraburi.com/ (Woraburi Hotels)

http://www.samslodge.com/  (Sam's Lodge)

http://www.dynastyinn.com/  (Dynasty Inn)

http://www.bhimaninn.com/  (Bhiman Inn)

http://www.suk11.com/  (Suk 11 Hostel)

AW Group Travel Agency  (Business Inn)

http://www.wegret.com/  (White Egret)

http://www.aoneinn.com/  (A One Inn)




The possibilities are endless.



To raise $$$ for the BIG after-event party,

Bangkok Phil & kenkannif could sign autographs.   



We could even play pin the tail on the evil school director.   

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Last night before hitting the sack, I had a couple ideas.


Assume for the moment that 500 people show up for the first conference.

On the opening day of the conference, we collect 1,000 Baht per person

for 1 year full membership.  That's 500,000 Baht on Day 1.


With that money, we set up our own legal defense fund,

find a good bilingual Thai lawyer that specialises in labour law,

and defend our members when necessary with the $$$ from that fund.


This is just me thinking out loud here, but I would gladly contribute 1,000 Baht

for full membership in an organisation that would go to bat for me if I needed help.


Another idea popped into my head as well.


If 500 teachers attended, we might draw some sponsors.

i.e., lunch on Saturday provided courtesy of Ajarn.com,

dinner courtesy of XYZ Recruiting Agency, etc.


ESL book publishers & recruiters would see this as a potential gold mine.

Why not go after their money the same way they go after ours ?




OK.  I'm finished now.    

[hero]

Excellent idea

Would payment of 1000Bt result in some kind of membership?  Or would anyone (conference attendees or not) be entitled to legal defense, should they require it?

Either way it sounds like an excellent idea.  Of course, if the defense would stretch to all teachers (i.e. regardless of conference attendance and covering all non-Thai nationals) as it should then the onus would be on making the conference a real crowd puller.  Sponsors may very well be interested.

One interesting thing would be to see the reaction of the local police to an event held by 500 non-Thais with 1000Bt notes flying around the place   They'd surely want some of that

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

OK. I'm not finished.   


In my opinion, the legal defense fund would be available to members only;

i.e., those that cough up 1,000 Baht would receive full membership -

and some kind of fancy laminated card with their name on it.


Whether they actually attend the conference would not be an issue.

Teachers could sign up for membership on TEFLWatch or Ajarn.com, etc.

We'd simply open a local bank account and 'sticky' a post for sign-up.

i.e., people could wire their membership dues without attending,

although who would want to miss out on an event like this ?


re: sponsorship


If we were to hold a 3 day conference at XYZ Hotel in Bangkok,

hypothetically speaking, a Friday, Saturday and Sunday -

why not reserve Sunday as an EFL Thailand Job Fair

and charge schools and recruiters $100 for a booth ?


Full members in good standing get in free;

non-members pay 500 Baht at the door.


Additional money for the defense fund.   


Potentially, a lot of money   



We could also invite a few prominent law firms to attend.

That should take care of any problems with the cops.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

To move beyond the discussion stage,

we need to ask the following 5 questions:



1. Would you join a committee to help organise such an event?

2. Would you attend a 3 day conference if your schedule allowed?

3. Would you pay 1,000 Baht for one year full membership in the legal defense fund?

4. Would you pay 500 Baht to attend the EFL Thailand Job Fair on Sunday,

assuming you wouldn't fork out 1,000 for full membership?


and finally ...


5. Would you donate a few hundred Baht to the legal defense fund

to have Bangkok Phil's, kenkannif's or hero's autograph and

personal message on a glossy 10" by 7" colour photo? 



I'm totally serious about the VIP autographs, by the way. 

I bet we'd raise 30,000 Baht on that idea alone. 




To get this moving, we'd need to set up 4 committees initially:


VENUE - to decide on the dates and to organise & reserve the venue

AGENDA - to organise and develop an agenda - invite guest speakers, etc

FINANCE - to set up and manage a bank account, membership dues, etc

PR - to contact and invite schools & recruiters to the job fair



One closing thought before I head into my 4 pm class:

The first conference may not be a smashing success,

but let's not forget; Rome wasn't built in a day. 


If we work together, we could pull this off.




OK. Now I'm really finished.     T G I F !

[NamTok]

Kent F et al,
    Yes, the conference would need to be held in Bangkok.
   
    Baht 1,000 is modest for membership, but we wouldn't want to price foreign teachers out of participating in a new, unknown, untried entity

    Excellent listing of affordable yet decent hotels

    I think a non-member could draw on our legal defense fund in return for an instant membership payment of double the normal payment, or Baht 2,000 or perhaps a greater amount (B3,500)

   Promotional booths for booksellers etc and a Job Fair would be excellent, would really enhance the event/occasion

   There are a million details to be worked out, to include having a single coordinator of the entire shebang. Who would participate on the committees....who would be the overall coordinator (presumptiously, let me say not me...for one thing I'm in Satun province).

   Baht 500 for youse guys autographs is fair and reasonable. Would you pay us with a  B500 note or by B100 x 5 notes to accept youse guys autographs  (paying us to accept youse guys autographs is is what you said, right?!?). 

   You really lit up on this subject to include recognizing proper credit to the initial posting that opened this thread. That's great! That initial posting by smolinska has, over a short time and lots of input,  taken us a long way forward.

   What about others...what do you think? TeflWatch, is this something you can comitt to?

[Harry]

"Arthur"



We all remember what happened to him & the minors, don't we. 

Anyway, count me in. I've got some spare cash & I'd make a great leader of the official TEFLWatch Flying Pickets... *No Surrender* 

[bangjock]

Somebody get some sanity here.

What on earth do you think this would achieve?

We're in a foreign country, supposedly abiding by their employment laws, do you really think such a union would be tolerated?

What right have we to dictate the formation of  a union for migrant workers? Do you think that a union of immigrant workers would be acieved in the EU or the US?

What about those, probably the majority, that work for a government institution. Is there going to be one union for them and another for the Thai teachers?

Would the privately run Chinese-type family schools deal with this, I guess not. And lets not forget about those that work for the three letter agencies, for them normal Thai employment law is invalid, and there's always another newbie off the plane.

Perhaps the joining fee could go into the 'overstay fund' to help the majority of the teachers who work illegally. The police would have a field day on this one.

I think this is akin to pi**ing in the wind. Until the country is oversupplied with professional teachers, will the teachers here be treated professionally.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

^ I'll interpret that as a 'no vote' from bangjock.   


To clarify my position: I'm not talking about forming a union. 

I'm talking about teachers pitching in to create a legal defense fund

which would be available to members when they have a serious problem,

regardless of their nationality or legal status.  You pay your dues, you're in.


Think about it for a moment.
 

How much legal assistance can you or I buy with 1,000 Baht?  ANSWER: none

By pooling our resources into a single fund, we gain some leverage; a bargaining chip.

Combine that with an annual Job Fair, I think we'd be promoting a very professional image.


Just my 2 Baht, of course.  People are free to disagree.

[bangjock]

Kent,

My apologies, I was refering to the idea of a union as such.

I'm all for teachers helping one another out, but I think we would never get away with a union.

The idea of a mutual legal defense fund does seem like a very good idea. I hope that we could get it to work, and I would be very interested to get involved.

I promise I will read the previous post more-fully, before I post my next rant.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Roger that ^ no apology necessary bangjock.  Welcome aboard.

I'm equally guilty of not always reading every word of every post.


Thank you NamTok and Harry for the positive feedback.   


Moving from the theoretical to the practical -

here's how this thing could actually work:


We reserve a big old Bangkok auditorium for three days,

Friday, Saturday & Sunday - which we pay for with

money collected in the form of membership dues

and/or from the Job Fair booth rentals.


Somebody with good connections at a local University

might even find us a venue free of charge?  Amen!



FRIDAY : SIGN IN & REGISTER : 11 am ~ 7 pm


We allow people an entire day to drop by and register,

check into their respective hotels, take a shower and relax a little.

8 pm : WELCOME & OPENING REMARKS featuring 1 or 2 guest speakers

9 pm ~ ? : buffet dinner & open bar courtesy of SPONSOR XYZ

attire: semi-formal / men in shirt & tie, ladies looking smart -

since we would invite the media to attend.



SATURDAY : MEET & BREAK UP INTO WORKING COMMITTEES


10 am ~ 12 noon : We meet in the main hall & form committees

12 noon ~ 1 pm : buffet lunch courtesy of SPONSOR XYZ

1 pm ~ 5 pm : Committees meet in smaller groups to

discuss relevant issues, set goals & elect a chairperson

6 pm ~ 8 pm : We reconvene in the main Hall where

newly elected chairpeople present a brief summary

of the topics which were discussed & goals set.


We leave Saturday night open for committee members to meet

in smaller groups for dinner or drinks at a place of their choosing.

attire: smart casual / no media present at meetings on Saturday



SUNDAY : JOB FAIR : 11 am ~ 4 pm




re: the above itinerary


The idea is to go easy - and not try to accomplish too much at the first event.

Friday would be more or less a social function; meeting, greeting & eating.

Saturday would be the day for working, discussion, electing leaders

and setting realistic goals for our newly created committees

and Sunday would be the main event :: JOB FAIR 2007 ::

[NamTok]

Kent F.

     You've placed a specific proposal on the table and I for one will go with its basics. (We don't need 5 different proposals to haggle over!)

    However, I do think having everyone stay and meet in one hotel would be more convenient. Save on the coming and going and the time and transport expenses required if we stay at different hotels. It also would facilitate our interaction among ourselves.

   Could we get as a speaker a bilingual Thai lawyer who's well versed in labor law and issues? Who could find such a creature and would the lawyer address a plenary session pro bono???

[blackmail]

An "Association" is a good idea.  It can provide many of the same benefits of a union.  I believe that a major hurdle will be trhe fact that so few teachers are completely legal.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Good evening mates


re: a bilingual Thai Lawyer


I think we could manage that.

Here are a few places to look:


http://www.thailabour.org/

http://www.sutletgroup.com/

http://www.lawyer.th.com/


By throwing in dinner and drinks and a spot as keynote speaker -

I reckon we could find a top lawyer who would jump at the chance.


re: choice of hotel


I'm open to any and all suggestions!  The list I posted above

was meant to give us a choice of options based on the

location of the actual conference venue.


i.e., first we nail down a suitable auditorium,

then we zoom in on a decent hotel with

low rates and a convenient location.


re: teachers and legality


I agree with blackmail that this is a serious issue

and a top priority for the agenda of the first event.


I don't have all the answers, but I'd guess that

teachers without a WP have the same legal rights

& are entitled to the same due process as anybody else.


A decent lawyer - on our payroll -

could give us the necessary details.


That's why this is such a jolly good idea.   

[NamTok]

Kent F.

   As to the need for a Thai labor law lawyer, exactly!

   You state the point exactly. Precisely. Spot on!

   You lost me tho concerning an auditorium. If we can get a hotel for all functions and purposes, why would we need an auditorium?

   Additional questions: Who or which committee would tour the lawyer sites to find our creature? How would all of us agree on which lawyer? I mean, by vote? Or by leaving it to a particular individual? To an ad hoc pre-gathering group? If the latter, how would that group be chosen and operate?

   I think we're making solid progress at this point in pursuit of a gathering of farang teachers at one place for a defined period of time and a specific purpose. Now we need to start making contacts with the lawyer sites, the hotels at their email addresses etc to find our creature and to get quotes on prices at various hotels. Importantly, when's the next 3-day holiday weekend? (This weekend would have been great, but our weekend will come.)   

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Hello NamTok   et al


re: an auditorium vs. a hotel


I'm not really sure if a hotel (especially a budget hotel) would have

a conference room large enough to hold all of us at the same time;

that's why I was sort of thinking auditorium.  All of this is flexible,

especially since we don't know yet if 30, 300 or 3,000 will come!


re: selecton of a lawyer


That would be the domain of the AGENDA committee members.

If we try to do everything by vote or through forum discussion,

we'll get seriously bogged down and never accomplish anything.


re: choosing the best date / time of year


I was thinking it might be smart to shoot for a 3 day weekend in March

since Thai schools and universities are off for summer break,

meaning a lot of teachers would be free to attend,

and schools would be hunting for teachers.


STOP PRESS : Before we get too excited about this,

I think it's time to bring up a very important question.


Without the blessing and support of Bangkok Phil @ Ajarn,

a large-scale project of this nature is dead in the water.


Personally, I'd love to remain behind the scenes or join a committee;

I have no personal ambition to run or manage this - I'm too busy.


So maybe now is a good time to ask the venerable Bangkok Phil

where he stands on the idea, and if Ajarn would consider 

sponsoring or co-sponsoring an event like this -

perhaps in conjunction with TEFLWatch ?





Bangkok Phil ?   

[NamTok]

     Bangkok Phil?!?

       Are you there?!?

       

       

[NamTok]

   Since I posted my proposal that foreign teachers meet in Bangkok for a weekend to discuss the topic of this thread and, since Kent F. subsequently has posted numerous specific further suggestions, the thread died. No one who'd posted previous to my proposal and Kent F's specific suggestions has posted.

   It might seem that all the posters who'd posted anit-union statements, even when no formal, organized union had been proposed by another poster, might just be anti-unity, period.

   I say anti-unity.

[Mods-Rockers]

Maybe you should be asking yourself where all the pro union/unity people disappeared to? Seems like for many it was just all mouth and trousers.

[hero]

I agree!!

I guess you'd probably label me as "anti" because I take a negative view of the whole thing.  The thing is, I'm all for it!  The only negativity in me is the prediction that this exact thing would happen.  They know who they are, but the posters (here and other boards) that get all excited every 3 or 4 months about this "union thing" and slate everyone who doesn't respond wholeheartedly - where are they now when KFK has put an idea on the table (and a damn good one IMO)!

As Mods-Rockers rightly points out, it seems they perhaps lack the ....(fill as appropriate).... 

I'd almost like to do something about it myself, except I work two jobs and also have a young child to take care of.  I'm happy in my work and give up plenty of hours a week to this site Meanwhile, the main "mouth" on this topic is out probably "doing what all guys (to use his own label) in Bangkok do every weekend"!

[hero]

It might seem that all the posters who'd posted anit-union statements, even when no formal, organized union had been proposed by another poster, might just be anti-unity, period.

That's really funny - it just goes to show that some people really can spin anything whichever way they want! 

[Speaksoftly]

One of the problems is the same as with this site itself:  without anonymity, it's very easy to get rid of the problem by getting rid of the leader.  But you can't have a real union that remains anonymous.  That's part of the point of a union.  It needs a large, public membership with strong leadership.

[admin]

I am pro-union myself. I don't try to make it too obvious though. I don't see how it could succeed in the current landscape that is Thailand. This is about the best we can do, a public forum to name schools. There is a huge demand for teachers, but I believe the demand is shallow, ie only exists in the current environment of low wages, cowering teachers, and subpar working conditions. Change it all for the better and there won't be the demand for teachers from the schools.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Good Day Mates 


In light of the lack of serious commitments to form an association (or union as some are calling it)

maybe we should just dump the whole idea - and focus instead on an annual Thailand Job Fair.


Whenever newbies pop onto a forum and ask about the best way to land a job in Thailand,

the replies from the vets are usually the same.  Come and meet with school managers.

And yet there isn't a one-stop venue where teachers can do this.  Amazing, no?


By hosting an annual Job Fair, we could form a loose association of teachers by default.

We'd charge teachers 500 Baht to enter for the day and mingle with school reps;

We'd charge 4,000 Baht to schools & recruiters to rent a booth for the day,

and then put all of the money we raise into an association fund -

to be used for the benefit of EFL teachers in Thailand.


We could schedule it as an all-day Saturday event (11am to 7pm)

and then throw a big TEFL Bash on that evening starting at 8,

with food, drinks, VIP autographs, the whole enchilada.


We could hire a local rock band to play as well. 


If Ajarn.com, ThaiVisa.com, ESLCafe and TEFLWatch support the idea

it could be a smashing hit - and something everyone could unite behind.

i.e., an annual Job Fair is a win-win event that benefits the entire community.

[smokinsa]

Hi everyone. My apologies for being away so long. It looks as though you all have been debating and making some outstanding progress. Keep up the good work!

Smokinsa 

[samvimes]

How about some professional development??

There is loads of stuff out there and I am sure there are lots of teachers who could put together a seminar or conference for a few days.

Example:
http://www.teachasiaonline.com/pmwiki/index.php?n=Main.Seminars