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Author Topic: Bangkok Christian College  (Read 28569 times)

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Offline hero

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Bangkok Christian College
« on: January 25, 2006, 08:20:38 pm »
The following post has been rescued from the old Thaischoolwatch board, where it was originally posted by a poster unknown!  I'm sure there are others from the old TSW board to follow!  I chose to repost this "warning" as two personal friends (one friend and one colleague actually) have spent time at the school in question and tell me that what is reported below (and worse) is true!  It is a high-profile school and one which I have heard many negative rumours about from other teachers, however I suspect there will always be teachers willing to put up with a bit of rough treatment for 50k, a lot of much nicer schols pay less after all!

Bangkok Christian College EIP Program

BCC EIP, a program based at BCC (an all-boys school near Surasak Station BTS on Sathorn downtown), is an all-foreign-taught EP program employing a growing number of foreign teachers for various subjects from English to math to science to health, even P.E.

Avoid it! The working conditions (roughly 50K beginning wages) look good at first glance; they are good in comparison to 30K TEFL jobs - if you keep the job. I've known multiple people in various subjects who had problems with dishonest management, and the uptight, snobbish, parents of the spoilt students there.

Usually these problems come just within the boundaries of the law, though the school was recently slapped with a fine when sued by an employee for their favorite trick of firing new workers who believe they have not "passed probation" right before what would supposedly be paid vacations. Seems that the school didn't realize their definition of probation violated Thailand's labour laws on the subject.

Turnover is incredibly high. At this point in time, only a few of the foreign teachers there have stayed/survived over a year. The teachers who stay tend in general to do so by being entertainers and by ignoring the atrocities committed by their students. I once witnessed one of the more "popular" teachers being pelted by paper balls in a class full of screaming kids pitifully trying to maintain his composure in the classroom.

Sycophancy is another useful tool of survival at BCC. Many teachers tear down others to avoid being targetted by the paranoid middle and upper management. Being willing to put up with the inefficiency and almost endless paperwork is a good way to stay under the radar.

There is a token foreign manager (who has changed almost every year over the last few years) who has no power. It does not matter what he reports about your teaching or your performance; if the EIP program head from the "Board" wants you out for whatever reason (the most common unstated reason being that you've offended some parent by forcing her precious little worm to behave), you'll be out. Most of the time the parents will not contact you, your boss, or even the "Board" member in charge of EIP; they have the phone number of the school director and speak directly to him/her. You'll be lucky if ever you know there's any problem, much less supported in any educational terms in resolving it.

Sometimes they show completely callous disregard for their foreign employees; one man was told that he couldn't keep his job the next year unless his wife (a popular lady with the parents) stayed. Another man was promised that his wife would be given a job when he came to work there; she wasn't. A third man was fired after being promised a job for the following year, because another teacher had secretly demanded it. The teachers who have lost their jobs before vacation for no reason because they didn't "pass probation" are too numerous to list. While a number of them have in fact been unsatisfactory employees, an equal number simply were axed because a parent (even a single parent), a Thai staff member, or even another teacher stabbed them in the back. Some of the nicer parents there have complained that teacher turnover is too high as a result of this constant infighting, and many of their (nicer) students have left the school as a result of this dissatisfaction.

It's just as pleasant as it sounds. They've acquired such a poor reputation among teachers in Bangkok that they're now apparently forced to go through a hiring agency. Foreign teachers from other schools have told me they've had to yell at BCC students on the BTS to behave (I am not making this up).

If this sounds worth it for 50K (while you keep the job), then be my guest.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2006, 10:01:06 pm »
Quote from: another (former?) emplyee


Well it would seem that there are so many things that I could mention about working at Bangkok Christian College; an all boys ?school? in Bangkok but I will endeavor to stick to just the pertinent facts.

To start on a positive note, in spite of all the problems, unprofessionalism, bad management practices and so forth; some of the students were great and I did actually enjoy teaching them. Some of the teachers were professional and did do their best under difficult circumstances to function to the best of their abilities.

The selection process and interviews

Looking back I should have seen the warning signs at this initial stage.

Go for an initial interview, get offered a job that has already been filled by someone else, get offered another job two days later, and have to go back for another interview; (This shows was disorganized they are)

Get interviewed by someone who appears to have:

a)? ?Little or no management experience.
b)? ?Little knowledge about the subject they teach.
c)? ?Little or no teaching experience.

Once you have in theory? accepted the job, you have to go in front of the ?board? where they ask you lots of pertinent teaching related questions such as; Do you drink?; Do you smoke?; What religion are you? How long have you stayed Thailand? Etc.

Then one of the board members will actually get your degree out of its protective plastic cover (if you use one) and give it a good rub between their fingers before accusing you of presenting a fake document. Then they will ask you if you can verify that it is real. If you are not insulted enough by this questioning of your qualifications; you will realize that they don?t even have the ability to tell if someone is trained to be a teacher,? or even whether someone is a graduate or a factory worker (Apologies to factory workers who are in fact over qualified to work here, but will at least not complain about swiping in and out every day at the start and end of their shift).

If you pass the ?Board? (apologies for capitalizing the ?B? but in this school the Board is accorded the same status as God i.e. their word is referred to often, but you never see them and they are not accountable to anyone) then you have the job for as long as they say (see the later section of probation).

The Salary.

The verbal offer did not match the offer on the contract that was presented to me when I went in to sign it. It was 2000 baht a month less. (This seems to be the admin staff getting above his station and deciding what the offer is himself) You should note at this point that there is a pay scale, but, you cannot see it as it would not be ?fair to other teachers? if they all knew how much each other were getting.

Oh yes and all teachers lose 4000 baht per month for 5 months in order to ensure they do not run away without giving 90 days notice (never mind that the contract said 14 days notice and was changed in pen after it had been signed to 90 days)

On an aside, another teacher wrote onto the contract the conditions of his promised pay rise after he had passed probation and this was whited out!!

We did not see those contracts for 2 - 3 months after we had started work, we were not given a copy when we signed which we should have been. Most contracts had been changed after they had been signed (to change the 14 days notice to 90 days which was written in pen with the 14 days simply crossed out and the 90 written above it)

OK so to sum up; the basic monthly salary was now 2000 less than the initial offer, plus 4000 less for the security deposit, plus if you were unfortunate enough to come through an agency you also lost another 2000 baht per month; and lastly the icing on the cake, it costs you 10 baht of your own money to get paid your salary into a bank account chosen by your employer and at a branch also chosen by them!!!

I also know two teachers who were verbally promised increments in their salary as a merit increase and subsequently did not receive it (it was only a paltry amount anyway, but one teacher did understandably quit over this issue)

The Thai admin staff

A saga of lost paperwork, lost degree certificates, cancelled visas, even lost passports! One teacher had her existing non immigrant B visa cancelled by the Thai admin staff without a new visa being issued and managed to rack up an overstay fine of about 20,000 baht. The teacher in question left in disgust. The last thing is they asked her to come back and if she did they might pay her for working??!!! Needless to say they did not pay her overstay fine which they caused.



The Thai teachers

Imagine you are teaching, half way into a lesson, you might be explaining some tricky algebra or trigonometry when a Thai teacher wants to come and talk to your students.

So how should they behave?

a) Knock on the door, apologize for interrupting the lesson and ask if it will be ok to have a quick word with the students.

b) Just open the door and lean in not even acknowledging that there is a class going on and just make their announcement while the teacher is still teaching.

Yes the correct answer is, you?ve guessed it a) however the correct answer for any Thai member of staff is b) (This just shows an element of the contempt and lack of respect the Thai staff at this school show their foreign staff)





The Farang teachers

AHA a chance to be positive. Some of the teachers are great, enthusiastic, motivated, and do their best within the system they find themselves.

Other teachers however, especially some of them that have been there a while and have made it to some kind of management position should be avoided due to the back stabbing that goes on; this can be put this down to them knowing that they are useless teachers and unqualified. The sad fact is that they don?t want to look bad, so they ensure that everyone else looks worse.

The Probation

The holy of holies, the big stick that is used to beat all malcontents into submission. Probation would be a great idea if it was transparent, measurable, and objective; unfortunately however it is not. In fact you won?t even know the criteria by which you are being measured.

You can get terminated at any time in the first 120 days of your employment without them giving any reason at all. One teacher was told he had failed probation and at the same time asked to work past his probationary period and finish the semester; another teacher worked past probation and then was told he hadn?t passed. (He still did not know why or how he had failed probation but at least he got some kind of settlement). The school will not specify reasons when terminating a probationary employee!

Great stuff, so you can get fired with no notice, for any reason (which in any case you are not told). The number of teachers who ?did not pass probation? is too many to count. As they never knew the reasons anyway, it was impossible for them to dispute.

The Observations

As they don?t have a clue about any capabilities of any of their teachers, you get to be observed often, usually with no criteria, and more often than not with no feedback.? Oh yes and being observed by a Thai teacher who is up to date on western teaching methodology is also a great idea, or giving a manager the responsibility who seems to have no educational background is also a great idea. Still there are no criteria and little or no feedback so who cares? There is no merit increase due to ability or if there is a promise of a merit increase it will vanish as though it had never existed.


The Extra Duties

Parents evenings and so forth are on a Saturday, extra duties are always on a weekend, so forget about that extra work at Go International, you get to come to school and work (you will not be told the dates in any case in advance; oh and the same goes for the holidays which are a secret not to be given to any member of staff just in case they like to plan a little bit ahead in their lives).

You also will pay for the privilege of having a lovely BCC jacket and skirt/trousers made. This will be in the second semester anyway so you won?t have much time to wear it anyway (unless you sign on for another year, but at least you will have passed probation so you can breath easy).

Oh and to end this section, how could I forget the ?spiritual awareness week? where you have to go everyday (if you have no free periods, you go in your lunch break) and listen to some evangelical moron bang on about God and Jesus for 40 minutes.

The Exams

Academic standards are not very high, teachers teach their own materials, (if they are lucky there will be books to use, if they are very lucky the students will also have books) and they set their own exams for their own students. It is the teacher?s fault if any student fails, and no student fails in any case as every teacher was told to
?fiddle the grades to ensure that no student fails? (that is a quote from a school memo); the whole grading and evaluation system is laughable. The students are as a consequence, not the most motivated students I have ever taught.


The Students

Some of the students are great, especially in the gifted classes, but (and this is a big but), most of the normal students will do absolutely nothing because they know they cannot fail. Homework will not be done, students take cushions into class to sleep, students are lazy, unmotivated although some of them are very bright.

A couple of pretty damning posts regarding one of Bangkok's "finest" schools!? I wonder if we'll get a response............
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 08:30:35 am by Uncle Che »

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2006, 09:59:09 am »
In the interest of balance, why don't you 'rescue' one of the positive posts?????

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2006, 10:25:40 am »
Well, if I was looking out for the best interests of the school, then I would look for positive posts and put them up here. But I am not, I am looking out for the best interests of teachers. And the sheer volume of posts, if I rescued one positive rebuttal, I would have to rescue them all. It is more fair this way.





Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2006, 10:49:46 am »
I would add that only one post was rescued from the old site, the other post was sent in via email or PM possibly from a teacher that still works there as they were reluctant to post it up themselves.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2006, 03:12:56 pm »
Quote from: MrTam-di-dai-di
In the interest of balance, why don't you 'rescue' one of the positive posts?Huh?

Good point!  Personally, I haven't seen one ;) Obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist :)

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2006, 03:27:12 pm »
I seem to remember that there were some people on the tsw thread saying things in support of the school or at least one section of the school. The name "Dr som nan na" rings a bell. but he stated that there are different sections to the school: Matayom, Prathom, EP and EIP and such like. I seem to remember that he was only supporting one section and tending to agree that others deserved the mudslinging.

Personally I cannot comment either way as I have never worked there nor to my knowledge do I know anyone who does/has.

Offline qwerty

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 09:44:31 am »
Good God not again..........

The thing with this BCC situation is that it's VERY two sided.
Teachers absent thruough hangover - A LOT!
Teachers leaving school during school hours - A LOT!
Teachers extending holidays without permission - A LOT!
Teachers not attending meetings.
Visa runs that last a week.
Teachers that issue a worksheet and call it a lesson plan!
Teachers asleep in class - YES ASLEEP!
Teachers NOT meeting dealines for reports / exams / lesson plans / photocopying etc.



Teachers that say "Yes, I'll be back next year" and then proceed to take the bonus / holiday pay and run!

And that's just us!

All of this kind of thing eventually winds up the boss, causing them to tighten thing up a bit.
Yes, I know only too well that the contract is not what we'd call 'kosher' but in general I find
that if I play ball the school play ball too.

I am a foreingner earning a bloody good living in a foreign land.
Sometimes cultural / regional differences bewilder me, but like I said, Im the foreigner.

I've had jobs back home that make this look like a week in the Oriental!
I've had bosses that are complete animal tyrants compared to these guys.




Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 12:04:34 pm »
I work in the EIP primary section.

Most people in this section seem happy or at least content.

I have never had my salary docked in any way in 3 years.

I have access to good books (McGraw-Hill), OHPs, Science labs, library, AV centre, and last year they bought me a TV and DVD player to use in class.

The Thai manager of the primary section argues for our proposals to the board and refunds us when we buy things for class, plays, and activities. She understands and asks us to use foriegn teaching techniques.

I admit there are big problems with the personnel dept losing important documents.

I have a foriegn assistant to help me, shared with my year level teaching partner.

I get to be a homeroom teacher, which is far more rewarding than seeing 40 classes a week.

I get a months salary bonus for Christmas, and a flight bonus. I like it there (BCC's EIP primary section), sure some communication problems, things cancelled at the last minute but that is normal in Thailand.

BCC's EIP along with Assumption's EP are the best Thai private school bilingual programs outside of international schools. They are number one and number two respectively.

Things are very different in the regular program, IEP, and even in the high school of the EIP. I recommend seperating this thread into four threads, as per the above depts to facilitate a constructive discussion.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 01:46:12 pm by MrTam-di-dai-di »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2006, 12:15:17 pm »
I disagree, I think what we have already amounts to a constructive discussion.  i.e. Nicely constructed arguments from both sides.

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2006, 01:51:34 pm »
Good God not again..........


Teachers that say "Yes, I'll be back next year" and then proceed to take the bonus / holiday pay and run!

And that's just us!




Sorry, I take issue with the holiday pay/bonus.

The bonus is for completing a contract, it isn't for signing a new contract. That is called a signing bonus and what we have in many schools in Thailand is a contract completion bonus. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking it and going, the problem is that schools dont like to pay it and will withhold it for no reason if the teacher doesnt say yes to another contract. The teacher is only taking care of himself by saying they will do another contract and then run.

About holiday pay? if a teacher signs a 12 month contract from May 1st until April 30th then the school is obligated to pay them for vacation months whether they sign another contract or not. Sleazy schools don't pay it and violate labor law by doing that. The smart teacher will say yes, yes, yes, yes and then when the new contract times comes around will say adios, amigos!

Remember, the holiday pay is yours for completing the school year, not for signing another contract.

All I can say Mr Qwerty is that if BCC is doing the above to teachers(cutting short 12 month contracts and/or refusing to pay bonuses) then it deserves it's position here on the board.

(I am begging for you to come back here and set the record straight because I didn't think BCC was that bad.)


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 01:57:16 pm »
I don't know of anyone that signed a 12 month contract having any money at all deducted or withheld in the three years I've been there.

They used to have some 11 month contracts in other depts, but you would have knowingly signed an 11 month one.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 02:28:24 pm »
BCC's EIP along with Assumption's EP are the best Thai private school bilingual programs outside of international schools. They are number one and number two respectively.

And that my friend is not saying a lot.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 03:19:07 pm »
Having previously worked in "Bangkok's number one government school for boys"  I don't put much value in these titles.  Such descriptions usually come from the schools themselves or are based on reputation rather than anything that happens in the school IMO.

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 08:26:03 pm »
I don't know of anyone that signed a 12 month contract having any money at all deducted or withheld in the three years I've been there.

They used to have some 11 month contracts in other depts, but you would have knowingly signed an 11 month one.

Thanks for clearing the air on that most important point, it seemed like Qwerty was implying that teachers did not have a right to holiday pay and bonuses if they refused to sign onto  new contract.

I will say that the charges leveled against BCC in this thread are no different than the charges levelled against more than half of similiar programs in Thailand.

Offline qwerty

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2006, 10:00:11 am »
Good God not again..........


Teachers that say "Yes, I'll be back next year" and then proceed to take the bonus / holiday pay and run!

And that's just us!




Sorry, I take issue with the holiday pay/bonus.

The bonus is for completing a contract, it isn't for signing a new contract. That is called a signing bonus and what we have in many schools in Thailand is a contract completion bonus. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking it and going, the problem is that schools dont like to pay it and will withhold it for no reason if the teacher doesnt say yes to another contract. The teacher is only taking care of himself by saying they will do another contract and then run.

About holiday pay? if a teacher signs a 12 month contract from May 1st until April 30th then the school is obligated to pay them for vacation months whether they sign another contract or not. Sleazy schools don't pay it and violate labor law by doing that. The smart teacher will say yes, yes, yes, yes and then when the new contract times comes around will say adios, amigos!

Remember, the holiday pay is yours for completing the school year, not for signing another contract.

All I can say Mr Qwerty is that if BCC is doing the above to teachers(cutting short 12 month contracts and/or refusing to pay bonuses) then it deserves it's position here on the board.

(I am begging for you to come back here and set the record straight because I didn't think BCC was that bad.)



Ok, my mistake - I'll correct it.

Teachers that take the April salary (which is NOT a bonus, and has only been offered as contractual from last year) and running.

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2006, 12:02:25 pm »
And if the contract is May 1st to April 30th, like many 12 months contracts, then what is the problem? They earned the pay whether or not they choose to continue or not.

If their contract was April 1st to March 31st, then taking April's pay would be a bad thing.


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2006, 03:25:56 pm »
Having previously worked in "Bangkok's number one government school for boys"? I don't put much value in these titles.? Such descriptions usually come from the schools themselves or are based on reputation rather than anything that happens in the school IMO.

I base it on the Bangkok Post's yearly investigative feature on the best private schools in Thailand. Which ranked them 1 and 2.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 03:37:27 pm »
Do you have a link? I would be interested to read such a report.  Or if it's in the newspaper only, when is it published?

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2006, 11:19:26 am »
The response that "other schools are this way, so it's hardly surprising that BCC is this way" can also be used for the "drunk teachers" complaints, etc.  I find it interesting, myself, that as BCC has a higher than average salary (assuming it's not being eaten away these days by all the deductions that seem to be getting reported) it can't find and keep better staff any more reliably than some of the 25K places.  That definitely reflects more on the management than the teachers.

If other schools, paying lower salaries, have found ways to avoid having these kinds of problems without resorting to abusive or illegal behaviors, then BCC should in theory be able to do so as well.

I find it odd that BCC's plants on this thread find it so reasonable that BCC behaves badly to them as a result of the other bad teachers' behaviors.  Seems to me that proper management means that you discipline those who need it, not the whole crowd innocent and guilty alike at random.  And the whole probation thing just seems to be used to terrorise the employees.

In other words, I find the continuing anecdotes of mistreatment by BCC towards various teachers (which have not even been challenged by the apologists) are not made acceptable by the fact that certain other teachers who happen to misbehave are also disciplined or fired, or that certain few teachers for reasons of luck or brown-nosing have not had problems.

Seems simple to me.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2006, 11:22:15 am »
Having previously worked in "Bangkok's number one government school for boys"? I don't put much value in these titles.? Such descriptions usually come from the schools themselves or are based on reputation rather than anything that happens in the school IMO.

I base it on the Bangkok Post's yearly investigative feature on the best private schools in Thailand. Which ranked them 1 and 2.

And such a reliable source, too.  I'm sure none of the "Bored" members at BCC are also investors at Bangkok Post- nosirree, not a chance.

I know a number of students who have run screaming from that place now- to much better schools including the truly good private schools (like Harrow, etc.) and the better public schools.

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 11:52:43 am »
Do you have a link? I would be interested to read such a report.? Or if it's in the newspaper only, when is it published?

Normally in May. No link sorry, I read the hard copy.

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2006, 12:00:07 pm »
Having previously worked in "Bangkok's number one government school for boys"? I don't put much value in these titles.? Such descriptions usually come from the schools themselves or are based on reputation rather than anything that happens in the school IMO.

I base it on the Bangkok Post's yearly investigative feature on the best private schools in Thailand. Which ranked them 1 and 2.

And such a reliable source, too.? I'm sure none of the "Bored" members at BCC are also investors at Bangkok Post- nosirree, not a chance.

I know a number of students who have run screaming from that place now- to much better schools including the truly good private schools (like Harrow, etc.) and the better public schools.


The Post is a reputable newspaper for Thailand. What do you want?? A Finacial Times review??? A bit 'I believe aliens are at area 51' paranoid aren't you??

Harrow is international, of course these schools are better. They are three times more expensive. A different league to private bilingual schools.

It's true students in the EIP do seem to leave after prathom (primary), which seems to be the better section of the EIP.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 12:01:44 pm by MrTam-di-dai-di »

Offline Shatapon

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2006, 11:29:00 am »
Good God not again..........


Teachers that say "Yes, I'll be back next year" and then proceed to take the bonus / holiday pay and run!

And that's just us!




Sorry, I take issue with the holiday pay/bonus.

The bonus is for completing a contract, it isn't for signing a new contract. That is called a signing bonus and what we have in many schools in Thailand is a contract completion bonus. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking it and going, the problem is that schools dont like to pay it and will withhold it for no reason if the teacher doesnt say yes to another contract. The teacher is only taking care of himself by saying they will do another contract and then run.

About holiday pay? if a teacher signs a 12 month contract from May 1st until April 30th then the school is obligated to pay them for vacation months whether they sign another contract or not. Sleazy schools don't pay it and violate labor law by doing that. The smart teacher will say yes, yes, yes, yes and then when the new contract times comes around will say adios, amigos!

Remember, the holiday pay is yours for completing the school year, not for signing another contract.

All I can say Mr Qwerty is that if BCC is doing the above to teachers(cutting short 12 month contracts and/or refusing to pay bonuses) then it deserves it's position here on the board.

(I am begging for you to come back here and set the record straight because I didn't think BCC was that bad.)



Ok, my mistake - I'll correct it.

Teachers that take the April salary (which is NOT a bonus, and has only been offered as contractual from last year) and running.

If you are implying that there is something wrong with leaving at the end of your contracted work time, then, sorry guy, you're wrong again.

That money is part of the contract. When the contract's finished, so is your obligation to work for them.

Their obligation is to pay you as agreed. This includes being paid through April, whether one returns or not, because April is part of the 40 paid holidays guaranteed in the contract.


Not that contracts really mean anything to the admins.

The staff at BCC has been told, amongst other things, that:

 "BCC only has to conform to Min of Ed laws and regulations. We are not bound by Labor Dept. law."

*The 40 paid holidays guaranteed in the contract were "...not what we meant...". WTF!?

"You will notified in the beginning of the year of all extra working days" (this has not been done- some farang staff have now a total of 15 extra day mandatory assignments. That kind of takes back 15 days from the 40 guaranteed paid holidays, dunnit?

and on and on...

This school's callous disregard for education and its allegiance to the baht has been demonstrated over and over again. While there have been some minor improvements, the Thai "face" issue (i.e., "we can lie whenever we want to. You don't understand, white boy- it's a Thai thang") will always work much better with the undereducated masses than with the mostly trained, skilled professionals employed by BCC.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2006, 12:57:21 pm »
The other great thing is that after they terminate you just before  the end of the first semester for not passing probation (without giving a reason)......

They don't have to pay out for any pay  for the 40 days holiday  in the contract  (hahaha they could never tell anyone what those 40 days were in any case)

Everything I have heard and seen about this "school" is bad news.

Why do they use contracts if they don't honor them?

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2006, 06:56:35 pm »
BCC isn't the only programs that has been accused of not paying what is due to its teachers.

 {}}

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2006, 07:58:24 pm »
^No, but that's the point.  It's not an excuse for illegal or bad behavior at one school that another school practices it; otherwise all Thai schools would be just peachy keen by reason of the rampant incompetency and corruption.  And not paying what they should and having odd conceptions about contracts and Thai labour law are only part of the mismanagement at that place.

Offline Shatapon

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2006, 12:27:18 pm »
The other great thing is that after they terminate you just before  the end of the first semester for not passing probation (without giving a reason)......

They don't have to pay out for any pay  for the 40 days holiday  in the contract  (hahaha they could never tell anyone what those 40 days were in any case)

Everything I have heard and seen about this "school" is bad news.

Why do they use contracts if they don't honor them?


Again, an interesting application by the admin at BCC:

They say that termination is effective immediately upon notice if one is in probation period,but they insist on 90 DAYS NOTICE from the employee, DURING THE SAME PROBATIONARY PERIOD, if the employee wants their "security" deposit returned.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 12:32:49 pm by Shatapon »

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2006, 01:42:27 pm »
^ You get it back at the end of service plus interest. If it's at the end of the contract you don't need to give 90 days notice, of course. You simply need to say you don't wish to return.

Since this deduction is in the contract, which you signed (not under duress I assume) don't you think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by signing and THEN complaining about it??

I don't think the deduction creates any good will at all, but we all signed the contract right??

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2006, 03:16:59 pm »
^ You get it back at the end of service plus interest. If it's at the end of the contract you don't need to give 90 days notice, of course. You simply need to say you don't wish to return.

Since this deduction is in the contract, which you signed (not under duress I assume) don't you think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by signing and THEN complaining about it??

I don't think the deduction creates any good will at all, but we all signed the contract right??

Read the post again

Again, an interesting application by the admin at BCC:

They say that termination is effective immediately upon notice if one is in probation period,but they insist on 90 DAYS NOTICE from the employee, DURING THE SAME PROBATIONARY PERIOD, if the employee wants their "security" deposit returned.

The contract states that? an employee can leave and give 14 days (crossed out and changed in pen to 30 day) notice when in the probationary period, it says nothing about 90 days notice in the probationary period to get your illegal security deposit back.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 05:17:46 pm by samvimes »

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2006, 06:09:25 pm »
So really, the security deposit is a contract completion bonus and the real salary is less? I guess that is the way a teacher should view the job. The amount of wage being held back is paying for your bonus.  {-}


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2006, 11:34:39 am »
4000 is taken out over 5 months to total 20 000.

If you fail to give 14 days notice while on probation, or 90 days after passing it, you won't see it again. They say they have to many runners, we've argued against it, that they could be throwing out the baby with the bath water, but I doubt we'll see progress on this one. Of course, if you go before Xmas, or completing the contract, you won't see those bonuses either, but there have to be some consequences for breach of contract.

An inflation adjustment, on top of salary increases is on the way, however.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2006, 10:55:00 am »
A longer notice once the school has committed sounds only fair.  But 90 days sounds silly.  I wouldn't take the legality of this for granted- this is BCC, after all- it would probably be good for some wise soul to see if there is a legal limit on the amount of notice a company can require a departing employee to give (without penalty) for any reason- I bet there is one, and I bet it's smaller than 90 days.

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2006, 11:45:12 am »
Yep there is! under Thai employment laws there is only a requirement to give 30 days notice on completion of probation period, However if I remember correctly BCC say they are not covered by these laws and only by education laws, which I think is baloney. However it would require a teacher there to take it to the courts and prove them wrong. the problem there is that BCC is big enough to cause the case to drag its way through the courts and thus bankrupt the teacher beofre a resolution to the case.

Seems that might is right in the land of smiles.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2006, 01:24:12 pm »
^Many times it is- but don't forget that this school has been sued by aggrieved teachers successfully (there was one thread on Ajarn last hiring season).  I think they depend a lot on people thinking that suing doesn't work, but labour law in this country is actually pretty strong.  Sue the b*stards!

Offline ajarnboomboom

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 08:44:01 pm »
I saw the thread from the guy on ajarn about a year ago and I have to admit, I was one of the doubters who told him to move on.  But he didnt, he went ahead and got his money.

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2006, 07:42:21 am »
An inflation adjustment, on top of salary increases is on the way, however.
Oh really?

Can you elaborate?

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2006, 09:44:24 am »
Not a lot, I was told that it is being calculated now, to be added on top of your anual increase. Should be ready when contracts are signed  :D.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2006, 05:10:03 pm »
This year will they actually fill in the numbers first, or are they going to try to ask the employees to sign them on faith with blank spaces for salaries and raises, like they tried to do not so long ago?    >:D

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2006, 09:27:34 am »
This year it's filled in. They have changed it for the better! See sometimes things improve.  :)

Offline MrQ

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2006, 04:42:00 pm »
I just remembered that I applied to work at BCC last year as a science teacher. I sent my resume in and 6 weeks later they called me up and asked if I would come to school the next day at 8am to teach a demo class and have an interview (on a Saturday). I told whoever it was that called to bugger off he had six weeks to contact me and he isa asking me to go to BKK the next day (I only live an hour and half away but it's a pain) to teach a demo science lesson.

He even called me on saturday morning at about 9am to check to see if I was lost. Pillock.

Offline durian

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2006, 01:21:32 pm »
The school year is over and no doubt many new teachers are thinking about working at BCC. Here are a few observations.
 
The school management (a.k.a. "the board") is a complete and unmitigated disaster. They have neither skills nor interest in making the school a productive and rewarding workplace. They treat foreign teachers with contempt and most of the time it appears that they are trying to make things as difficult as they possibly can. I suspect it is their ignorance and lack of interest rather than malice and, from what I've seen, they treat Thai teachers with the same lack of consideration. Except, of course, Thai teachers take all that crap with a smile.
 
The Thai administrator is incompetent, and his main role is to deflect any and all communication from the teachers and make sure they don't reach the board. In the rare cases that anything gets past past him and gets to the board, the board's standard response is that they will look into the issue in the future. In most cases the teachers never hear about the issue again. Should one of the teachers follow up and persist, he is marked as a trouble maker with a direct impact on his future career at BCC. In the rare cases that the board actually does respond, the communication does not go directly to the teachers; rather, it is passed through the foreign coordinator, with caveats such as "if I understand correctly" etc. Thus the board can always claim misunderstanding and deny any responsibility.
 
Apart from acting as a buffer, the Thai administrator also takes care of the paperwork, such as visa, teachers' licence, etc. He knows less about the process than many of the teachers who have been in Thailand for a few years, and flat out refuses to process paperwork in any way other than what he knows. This affects people with Thai wives with a Non-Imm O visa, as well as people with Non-Imm B visa which are not tied to the job ( e.g. investment-based B). On top of being ignorant and uncooperative, his organization skills are non-existent and on several occasions he has lost teacher's important paperwork, including passports.
 
Now let's talk about the contract (and the Employee Handbook which is the extension of the contract).
 
Teachers are usually required to sign the contract before the salary figure is written in. But it makes very little difference even if the salary is written in--in at least one case this past year they have whited out a portion of the contract containing a negotiated salary increase. It took the teacher an entire year to get the board to admit they owe him extra money and to give it to him. And the only reason that happened is that one of the Thai teachers intervened on his behalf and confirmed, in front of the school director, that the teacher was promised the amount at the time he signed the contract.. The Thai teacher, who is the backbone of their English program, has since been demoted to a regular teacher position in the Thai program.?
 
The contract states that "The Employee will be entitled to a cash sum of 17,000 Thai Baht as a return air-fare allowance from Bangkok to his/her home country, payable after the successful completion of the contract."
 
The management is now saying that they will pay the 17,000 Baht at the end of April, rather than before the summer break (which begins on or around March 21), and that the teachers are supposed to travel around Thailand during their break, rather than fly to their home countries. The management also say that it will not be a cash bonus, but part of payrol.
 
While one could theoretically argue that contract completion date is April 30, giving an air-fare allowance after the summer break defies its purpose. Besides, many of the teachers are leaving Thailand permanently and the delay in getting their travel allowance and the April salary creates hardship for many of them.
 
Additionally, the management announced that they will deduct money from the April paycheck for the late clock-ins and absences for the entire year. This leave the non-returning teachers in? a situation where they cannot get any accounting for the deductions, or dispoute the deducted amount.
 
At the same time, the school refuses to renew visa for the non-returning teachers. In most cases the teacher's visa expire in March and April, and the teachers who intend to stay in Thailand until April 30 (the end of contract period) will not have a valid visa.
 
The school management gives the teachers as little information as possible so that they cannot make specific objections. A few examples. Teachers do not know their performance is evaluated, or even what are the criteria. The contract states, "The Employee will receive a monthly salary increment in accordance with the relevant salary scale upon renewal of His contract for a further year." When the teachers requested the information about the relevant salary scale, they were told that "The concern is that releasing their guide could result in more divisiveness among peers as the salary is ultimately based on individual negotiation."
 
The contract contains several provisions that are in direct contradiction of the Thailand Labour Protection Act of 1998. These include the number of medical leave days limited to 7 per year (vs 30) and the 20,000 Baht that the school deducts from each teacher's salary and keeps as a "safeguard against the Employee terminating his Contract without giving the Employer a three month notice." The three month notice requirement is also in contradiction of the 1988 act.
 
One of the teachers wrote a letter to the board challeneging some of these provisions. He was fired without reason at the end of probation, and the school board's response was, "The Boards attorney(ies) indicated that Bangkok Christian College (BCC) and other such schools are exempt from the Thailand Labour Department and applicable laws."
 
I am not an attorney but suspect this sounds like a complete nonsense.
 
At the end of the year, the school gives a letter of intent to all teachers, inviting (or not) them to renew contract for the next school year. This year they un-invited one of the teachers with a degree in education and decades of experience, a teacher who did not do anything wrong, except that he occasionally stood up against the management's unethicals dealings with both the staff and the students.
 
Another teacher got fired for allegedly using fake credentials. This is second hand information for me, but several sources confirmed that his credentials are real but there was a glitch in communication and his school which not confirm his degree. Which would be fine, except the way BCC chose to handle it is that they sat on this information several, let the teacher finish the term, and as soon as they had the term grades they had him escorted from the premises by the police without paying him his March and April salaries, end of term bonus, or the flight bonus.
 
Finally, responses to a few earlier posts which defend BCC and their practices.
 
MrTam-di-dai-di wrote: "I don't think the deduction creates any good will at all, but we all signed the contract right??"
 
Except ...first, the school is in a position of an absolute power and the teachers who want to work here have no choice except to sign it. As a result, the teachers are often signing contracts without the salary figures and the employess never get a copy of the contract at the time they sign it. Besides, the board violates the contract at will and, as a result, the contract if worth less than the roll of Quilted Northern in my bathroom.
 
"Teachers at BCC come to work drunk, smelly, unprepared, etc."
 
That's simple--fire them. If they are not fit to be teachers, get rid of them. That's what the four months of probation are for. Keeping bad teachers, however, is not an excuse for unethical or illegal actions by the BCC management.
 
"Charges against BCC are the same as againt other schools in Bangkok."
 
First of all, I agree that I bring with me a Western perspective. Just like back in Canada, if someone is breaking a law, they are a criminal; if someone is stealing money, they are a thief; if someone is violating a contract, they are a fraud.
 
It is one of the favorite tricks of the BCC management to hide behind the "Thai culture" whenever they do something unethical. The fact that most Thai schools have the same problems may be an issue for alt.thai.culture, but that does not absolve or justify the unethical behaviour practiced by the BCC. After all, even here in Thailand there are schools which are well managed, and honest in their dealings with their employees.
 
It's unfortunate that Bangkok Christian College is not one of them.

PS: Last minute update:

- Under pressure from the teacher, BCC did agree to give the teachers their fligh bonus with their March salary.

- BCC also paid the teachers for the camp, except they gave the techers 2,000 Baht instead of the promised amount of 3,300 Baht. (Again, in Canada this is called stealing.)

- The new contract apparently does include some of the changes changes that the teacher asked for over a year ago.

- The request for pay-scale adjustment for inflation was flat out refused.

Overall, it is a lot better conclusion of the school year than most teachers expected.

Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2006, 06:58:14 pm »
Good post Durian. I enjoyed reading it.
Don't suppose there's any chance of getting one of the board on here is there? I think we'd all like to hear what they've got to say to that excellent account of yours.

Offline durian

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2006, 11:00:26 pm »
Good post Durian. I enjoyed reading it.
Don't suppose there's any chance of getting one of the board on here is there? I think we'd all like to hear what they've got to say to that excellent account of yours.

Thanks for the compliment, Phil.

I don't think there is a chance the board could be bothered with what the native teachers think about BCC. In the past there were a few posters at TSW who defended BCC. I have a pretty good idea which of the BCC coordinators/administrators they were. I suppose it's part of their job to defend the school and I can't really blame them for it, but I did not think their responses were genuine.. But then, they don't ever address any issues with the employees, so how could one expect them to provide straight answers on a public board?

The only reason I can imagine the BCC management would make any effort to change their behaviour is if their reputation were to affect their bottom line. And, frankly, that is not likely to happen. There is a waiting list for students trying to get to BCC, even with the astronomical tuition amount and the required bri... pardon me, donation.

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2006, 08:42:01 am »
Some fair  points Durian, but a few are things I've never heard of.

Whiting out salary amounts with liquid paper?? Really?? Never happened to me or anyone I know in Prathom, they were written into the contract last year, but they have thankfully changed to have a itemised printed salary amounts this time. A small victory.

The flight bonus will indeed be payed today, and next academic year it will range from 17 000 to 24 000 baht. Another little victory.

We lost the battle over an inflation adjustment, something that quite disappointed me, but this could be part of a 'prestige' based budgetary dispute between the Thai and English programs.

The work permit responsibilities have been given to someone else (thank God) in the H.R Dept, another small win for us.

In Asia, whatever the school, sometimes issues of face will over-ride what is in the best interests of the school. But overall, we have taken three steps forward, and one backwards this academic year.

I'm content if we keep moving forward a little every year, it has to be incremental in order to be sustainable, and you will find few schools except for Assumption (outside of internationals) that can match it in terms of resources, salary and bonuses, and tolerance of western teaching methods and work attitudes. This may be a shocking point to those of you that have never taught at a bad Thai school, but believe me, there is a lot worse out there. 

It can be productive to engage in constructive criticism,  but is it fair to expect the world from a school that has limited expectations of us??

BTW, I'm not, and never would be part of Admin or management, just a humble home room teacher.

Happy hols all.

Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2006, 08:56:52 am »


The work permit responsibilities have been given to someone else (thank God) in the H.R Dept, another small win for us.



That's a big victory in my book, but I bet the Thai person loves you farangs now eh? Or don't tell me - he/she left to find another job.

Offline Duckbill

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2006, 12:51:36 pm »
Why does it have to be a battle with administration? Talking about victories and winning and losing battles? Why bother teaching at a school when you have to be involve din a war just to getw hat you deserve?


Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2006, 01:11:23 pm »
 ^^^^ That would be my take on it also.

Quote from: Mr Tam-Di-Dai-Di
you will find few schools except for Assumption (outside of internationals) that can match it in terms of resources, salary and bonuses, and tolerance of western teaching methods and work attitudes.

It's funny because that absolutely flies in the face of the experiences of one friend and one current colleague of mine.  Both of which have left to find better-paid jobs in "newer", "unnamed", non-international private schools.  I think that the eminence of Bangkok Christian and Assumption is perpetuated from within and doesn't really reflect the reality of things.

What's also funny is that both guys say the most refreshing thing about getting away from BCC is getting away from the intolerance towards Western atitudes and anything other than the illusion of Thai culture.

I have encouraged both guys to come here and comment - unfortunately neither have been inclined s far!  I don't wish to post on their behalf particularly, just add to the debate!

shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2006, 01:24:48 pm »
If this school doesn't make it to the "Hall of Shame" within 60 days; I'll run from Hua Hin to Bangkok--naked.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2006, 02:41:09 pm »
Not sure how that would work, 'cos technically it doesn't qualify for the "hall of shame" because I started the thread with material based on info from the old Thaischoolwatch board - it wasn't a new post.  Having said that it has received more interest than any other thread on the board, so it's surely worthy of a place in the said "hall of shame".  It's a tricky one.....

Admin? 

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2006, 07:48:19 pm »
The extensive posts since then would qualify it for the Hall of Shame. But the post by Durian a week ago most definitely qualifies it. I personally think it is too controversial to move it over there yet. It is still page 1 material on this board. The next entry? Well you have to wait for Monday to find out, but Mr Tam Di Di can rest asurred that this week or next week, it will not be BCC. After that? Not sure, yet. 

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2006, 02:02:26 pm »
Based on everything I have heard and experienced. this would be my first choice of school to be in the hall of shame

Offline DW

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2006, 03:22:47 pm »
Having just survived a year at Bangkok Callous Christians I would suggest it immediately goes into the Hall of Shame.

I had heard some bad stories before but thought they were all exaggerations and trouble making.  After a little time, I found out they were not.  I made up my mind to leave back at the end of December.  If I could have left and got my slave deposit I would have left then but 20k is a fair amount of money.  All I feel now is a sense of relief its over.  I reckon that there is about a 10% retention rate this year to next.

Another point about our final pay and bonueses is that the majority of teachers have their money paid into the Siam Commercial Bank.  The accounts were opened by the school for us.  What they opened are accounts that CANNOT BE USED OUTSIDE OF THAILAND!!!!  I know, I tried when I went to Malaysia!  Which is another stunt they pulled on us.   Luckily I will still be in Bangkok then but it has screwed up the plans of many who wanted to go home for good at the end of March.

Having a school which regularly and repeatedly lies to its teachers, changes its mind on working conditions, uses bully tactics deserves all it gets. 

The use of policemen to bully a teacher is utterly contemptable but sadly unsurprising and was something I did not know about.  I will try and get in touch with the person and find out more, I had wondered why he suddenly disappeared.

I am now using the experience learned there to use in the new round of interviews I am currently doing. 

They used to say Lifes' a witch then you die.     

I feel the school moto should be

Lifes' a witch then you work for her!

shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2006, 04:10:08 pm »
 >:( >:( >:(

Let me make four positive comments about BCC.

1.  There is a 7-11 close by for you to buy your own soap and toilet paper.

2.  There is a copy machine downstairs, where you can pay to use it.  As opposed to having to apologize every time you use the one in the Administrator's Office.

3.  I would positively recommend that you do not work at BCC in any shape, form, or fashion.

4.  You will learn plenty about Thai Culture by seeing the ways that most Thais do NOT act.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2006, 09:47:01 am »
Hall of Shame ???    I do not get it.

I work at BCC and it is no different than many of the consulting/temp jobs I have done in the West.
Because you are not part of the main employee base (we are Farang and usually temporary
as few stay longer than a year or two, many much less) you are subject to lesser consideration
than the employees who have given 5, 10 years or more to them. This is just work politics and human nature
that you find anywhere including the West.

Add to that the many cultural misunderstandings on BOTH sides and naturally a few will feel some agitation and discomfort.
But as far as I know, everyone has baht in their account at the end of every month as promised and
the facilities and work conditions far surpass most of what one experiences in most other schools.

You want perfection ........ you will not find it teaching in Thailand. And you will not find it back in
the West. Every company I have ever worked for has had problems of one kind or another.
The worst is when they are not doing well and not making money. Then they lay you off or
the check bounces. BCC checks do not bounce. And there are plenty of other places to
teach if you do not like the pro/con balance working there.

JMHO

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2006, 01:43:45 pm »
Hall of Shame ???    I do not get it.

I work at BCC and it is no different than many of the consulting/temp jobs I have done in the West. Because you are not part of the main employee base (we are Farang and usually temporary as few stay longer than a year or two, many much less) you are subject to lesser consideration than the employees who have given 5, 10 years or more to them. This is just work politics and human nature that you find anywhere including the West.
Not all Farang are transient, and some have decided to spend the rest of their lives in Thailand, So you are saying that we have to put up with the doodoo for upwards of five years before the school will treat us normally, maybe that?s why so many good teachers are voting with their feet in schools that adopt these practices. And trust me on this never have I been treated like doodoo in any temp position (only two I admit) in the UK and certainly in consultancy treat me like doodoo and my consultancy fees start rising exponentially.

You want perfection ........ you will not find it teaching in Thailand. And you will not find it back in the West. Every company I have ever worked for has had problems of one kind or another. The worst is when they are not doing well and not making money. Then they lay you off or the check bounces. BCC checks do not bounce. And there are plenty of other places to teach if you do not like the pro/con balance working there.
True perfection is something that is very rare, but if perfection is at one end of the pendulums swing, why put up with the other end? There are plenty of better places than BCC as many of your ex teachers have found. True BCC?s cheques do not bounce and apparently don?t even get written if you infringe any of the dynamic rules near the end of the contract. Maybe again that?s why BCC has such a high turnover, and therefore why the students there are getting such a doodoo service.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2006, 08:21:19 pm »
Quote
You want perfection

Yes!

Quote
you will not find it teaching in Thailand.

Perhaps not!

Quote
you will not find it back in the West.

Probably correct on both counts.

Quote
The worst is when they are not doing well and not making money. Then they lay you off or the check bounces.

It would be more disheartening for me working for a "household name" who is making plenty of money and enjoys unrivalled prestige if I was getting treated badly.  If I worked for a company on it's way down the pan, I could probably rationalise (even accept the inevitability of) poor treatment!  Why should farang teachers at this school be treated so poorly, it's one of the oldest and most successful institutions here - shouldn't they set the standard for others to follow?  Maybe this is why they get more than their share of harsh criticism ;)

Quote
BCC checks do not bounce.

Well I guess we should be thankful :D :D

Quote
there are plenty of other places to teach if you do not like the pro/con balance working there.

There certainly are, it would seem plenty of teachers realise this too!  This may explain......

Quote
few stay longer than a year or two, many much less

 :D :D


It's interesting to note that while we get many posts "defending" BCC - very few of them actually refute the allegations made against it!  They seem to focus instead on justifying mistreatment of their farang teachers!  If I were a new teacher considering a job there I would be very worried about the environment I would be walking into ;)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 08:28:46 pm by hero »

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2006, 07:40:38 am »
Quote:   You want perfection ?

Yes!
--------
This is exacly the problem IMO. Many farang, especially those complaining here expect too much.
--------



It's interesting to note that while we get many posts "defending" BCC - very few of them actually refute the allegations made against it!  They seem to focus instead on justifying mistreatment of their farang teachers!  If I were a new teacher considering a job there I would be very worried about the environment I would be walking into
--------
Mistreatment ?  What mistreatment ?
The allegations that I have seen here are trivial in the light of the important issues of work environment, resources and being paid on time.
Yes there are problems at BCC like any place else; classroom mgt can be a difficult challenge, being told of an extra work day at the last minute is a pain, and there are some rules (the 20K 'doing a surprise runner' holdback) that are not well thought out due to cultural differences in expectations. The Thai authoritarian attitude toward Thai employees does not sit well with Westerners who expect more autonomy and freedom. But this is simple cultural misunderstanding which I mentioned in my previous post. If you expect perfection as does poster "hero", you will be unhappy. But whose fault is that ?
As for being treated poorly, I seem to recall back in the West that a foreigner that does not speak the language would be treated rather poorly by many (not all) people. Just the dark side of human nature is all. But at BCC I have never seen anyone abused or insulted intentionally. I do see farangs that expect Thais to live by Western cultural values without making any effort to understand the Thai point of view. Is it any wonder that SOME here are unhappy ?

I do not think that the BCC Mgt are angels. They are just people running a private educational and business institution. But they are no better or worse than those that run the intitutions I worked for back in the West. Maybe through the tinted glass of cultural ignorance you see them differently than I do. OK. Vote with your feet and go work somewhere else.
--------

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2006, 09:28:55 am »
BKKMan if you are happy earning a pittance and being lied to on a daily basis then that's your business, it does not sit well with people who do have some expectations.

It seems that you do not have high expectations at all if you think that the school is good just because you don't mind being lied to or having your contractual obligations changed based on a whim. Are you so desperate to stay in Thailand that you will put up with being treated like a doormat? Where is your self respect?

"I work at BCC and it is no different than many of the consulting/temp jobs I have done in the West."

Well I have worked as a consultant in the west and let me tell you that we got paid significantly more than the normal staff because we got less benefits, we were valued and respected because we brought in knowledge and expertise that was missing in the first place.

If "Every company I have ever worked for has had problems of one kind or another" is true then you must have worked for some shoddy unprofessional places and you deserve to be working for a shoddy unprofessional school.



Being paid on time is....... normal
Having the resources to do your job is... normal

I can take issue with this one, when I worked at BCC there were no text books at all for my kids to use and some text books did not arrive until the last quarter of the semester.

We don't demand perfection, but we do ask for honesty.
We don't demand perfection, but we ask for transparancy and consistency.

BCC falls far short of perfection, in fact it does not even qualify for mediocrity.



Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2006, 01:23:49 pm »
Quote
Maybe through the tinted glass of cultural ignorance you see them differently than I do.

Maybe you're making allowances for them because they aren't Westerners.  Do the Thai teachers get a rough deal in BCC?

Quote
Quote:   You want perfection ?

Yes!
--------
This is exacly the problem IMO. Many farang, especially those complaining here expect too much.

Wants and expectations are entirely different concepts, my friend.  Nobody should ever expect perfection, but that doesn't mean we should all give up desiring it ;)

Quote
If you expect perfection as does poster "hero", you will be unhappy.

I don't expect perfection, neither did I say or imply that....please don't put words into my mouth ;).  I am lucky, I have never worked at BCC - I earn more and get treated better to be honest ;D  It's not perfect, but the day my working conditions or salary get fiddled around with by cowboy Thai admin staff I will post here and let you all know!  If I don't have books for my classes I will make it known here first - that's a deal {-} {-}

Quote
It seems that you do not have high expectations at all if you think that the school is good just because you don't mind being lied to or having your contractual obligations changed based on a whim. Are you so desperate to stay in Thailand that you will put up with being treated like a doormat? Where is your self respect?

I think I mentioned before, a couple of folks I know who left BCC were surprised to find out how teachers get treated elsewhere, and the "myth" that BCC is one of the highest paying non-international schools around is exactly that, a "myth"!

shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2006, 05:33:54 pm »
 {:;

Let's just pretend for a moment that BCC is honest in its accounting and payments to teachers.  Let's even pretend that they are paying 70,000 per month.  In my opinion, if you had 50 ml of self-esteem you would still find it an awful place to be employed.  Also, keep in mind that the Sathorn area is one of the highest rent costs in all of Thailand. 

Have you ever been to a Target store and seen a group of employees clapping together three times after a pep talk by their crew leader?  You will be asked to do things much more humiliating at BCC (IMHO).  A "Christian School"?  I've seen more Christians at Soi Cowboy.

Three words sum it up:  HALL OF SHAME

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2006, 07:05:00 pm »
I've got an interview? for a job with them tomorrow. I'll have to consider my options carefully.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 07:11:48 pm by SouthOfHeaven »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2006, 07:11:12 pm »
Well, you've been warned ;D

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2006, 07:13:06 pm »
Thanks. What are the hours like? What time do you go in and leave at? And how many teaching periods are there a week?

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2006, 07:16:40 pm »
Quote
What are the hours like?

Subject to (frequent last-minute) change I believe ;)

I'm sure one of the current BCC teachers wil be along soon to answer all of your questions in due course......


.......by the way, be sure to let us know how it goes {-}

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2006, 07:19:59 pm »
I will.  :)

Offline macaroni

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2006, 09:05:48 am »
{:;

Let's just pretend for a moment that BCC is honest in its accounting and payments to teachers.
?
Just signed on for a fourth year.? So far so good, but then again three years of regular paychecks et al. isn't much of a track record, is it? ;)
 
Quote
Let's even pretend that they are paying 70,000 per month.

Now that would be a stretch.? The only farangs there making that kind of baht are full bird teachers who could just as easily work in true international schools.? I would say that the wages are well above average for a non-international school.
?
Quote
In my opinion, if you had 50 ml of self-esteem you would still find it an awful place to be employed.?

Noted.? You didn't major in logic, did you?? ;D My self-esteem is doing just fine.? I have heard of others who were given a pretty rough ride.? Of the ones of whom I have direct knowledge, I can say that they, without exception, played a large part in bringing it on themselves.? I have heard the tales of whited-out line items in contracts. I honestly don't know who the victim was in this case, or how they handled it.? If it happened to me, I'd make a big stink about it for sure.
 
Quote
Also, keep in mind that the Sathorn area is one of the highest rent costs in all of Thailand.?

So don't live there!? Last time I checked, BCC was well within spitting distance of the skytrain.? Do what millions do every day - commute.

Quote
Have you ever been to a Target store and seen a group of employees clapping together three times after a pep talk by their crew leader?? You will be asked to do things much more humiliating at BCC (IMHO).
?
I have no idea what you're talking about.? Maybe a different department..
 
Quote
A "Christian School"?? I've seen more Christians at Soi Cowboy.

Me too.? Lotta farangs there, no??


Look, you don't like the place, fine.? I've never been treated unfairly there, and been paid pretty well (by local standards) for what in the end is pretty easy work.? Simple as that.

Oh, and before you ask, no, I am not in administration.? Just another working stiff who likes having good people to work with.

Is it a fabulous place to work?? Don't make me laugh.? Decent, but with a bucketload of problems, to be sure.??

Comparable to other schools?? Sure, there are huge problems all across the entire industry.? From my experience, BCC has a few more than average, but YMMV, it is largely up to you.

Could things be better?? I suppose things like, off the top of my head, a curriculum or books or grades that had a shred of meaning or accountability or openness to new ideas or advancement based on merit or clear communications or ... or...

It's no picnic, but it surely isn't the hell on earth I've been reading about here.?


Answers to specific questions:
Hours are 7:30 to 4 M-Th, and on most Fridays we leave at 3:15.?
They say up to 22 periods a week, but most teachers are at 20 or below.

So SouthOfHeaven, take all of these statements, including mine, with a grain of salt.? You are the one who has to live with the decisions you make.? I hope you make the one that's right for you.? Good luck.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2006, 07:21:56 am »
{:;

Have you ever been to a Target store and seen a group of employees clapping together three times after a pep talk by their crew leader?? You will be asked to do things much more humiliating at BCC (IMHO).?

Well I am curious about this accusation you make here.
What humiliating things have you been asked to do ?
Or if you are speaking about hearsay, what have you heard that BCC farang teachers have had to endure that is humiliating ?


Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2006, 12:46:14 pm »
Let's try spiritual awareness week which embarrasses even the western  teachers who are Christian....

The pointless summer camps.....


The only positive thing poeple can say is that pay checks are on time, even though they are minus various deductions  <lo{<sr>

Your salary at the end of the year will be subject to sudden deductions.  {n<k>

Your contract is not followed and can be changed whenever they like  {..







Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2006, 01:09:13 pm »
Have you ever been to a Target store and seen a group of employees clapping together three times after a pep talk by their crew leader?  You will be asked to do things much more humiliating at BCC (IMHO).  A "Christian School"?  I've seen more Christians at Soi Cowboy.

Oh my god, didn't know Target did that as well. I remember working at a Wal-Mart store back in 1993. Being asked to lead the Wal-Mart cheer was the most degrading and humiliating experience I had felt up to that time. Give me a W! Give me an A! Give me an L! Give me an M!


Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2006, 01:36:49 pm »
Actually one teacher scanned their contract (with all the changes after it had been signed)

I will try to get them to post it up here

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2006, 02:06:00 pm »
Heh heh... some "thread amnesia" here- what about the abusive behavior mentioned in the opening post?  What about other abusive and unprofessional situations mentioned by various posters on this thread?  The posts of the few posters "defending" BCC seem to be supporting them through collective omission- not denying, as another poster pointed out, that specific abuses mentioned have occurred, but simply not repeating them and hoping that no one else will either.  The "whited-out" contract section, which even Mr. TamDida admits happened, is reduced to "one person" perhaps having had a problem.

SouthOfHeaven, if you're desperate perhaps you should work there, but I hope you'll have other options to consider as well.

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2006, 04:26:37 pm »
Confirm one teach had a whited out contract, but still had a fight and stress when the Director was proven wrong and he was right that the whited out amount was the agreed salary during the interview.

The rest of them had pencil amendments like increase in days for probation notice from 14 to 30 days.

Last years contract has a total of  4 breaches of either thai labour or contract laws. I don't think any of these are changed to comply with any labour laws)

These include
Non-signed amendmends after initial signing on the dotted line. White out in one case.

Extension of probation after 120 days max by labour laws.

Withheld salary for till end of contract. (4000 a month for 5 months)

Full time teachers must give 3 months notice to quit. (labour law is 1 month). Note fail to give 3 months notice and lose your 20000 baht.

7 days paid sick / personnal leave a year, labour law states 30 allowed.

But well what am I talking about these are Labour Laws and BCC is excempt from them as they follow MOE guidelines (BCC lawyer quote).  So if schools are exempt from labour laws why we need a work permit????

The rest is just Admin lies, demands, excuses and cock ups. last minute mandatory Saturdays or changes to events.  But most schools are like that just BCC gives more than its fair share.

No hearsay this is the facts from the office (I have last yrs contract in my hand).




Offline MrQ

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2006, 08:40:16 am »
How did the interview go then?

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2006, 09:48:32 am »
Let's try spiritual awareness week which embarrasses even the western? teachers who are Christian....

The pointless summer camps.....

Your salary at the end of the year will be subject to sudden deductions.? {n<k>

Your contract is not followed and can be changed whenever they like? {..

So spiritual awareness week is humiliating to you ?? How is that ?? Are you an athiest ?

"Pointless summer camp" you say.? Just how is this humiliating to you ?
Pointless to whom ?? Obviously to you. But to the staff and the students it is hardly pointless.
Is your self centered little mind showing ?? Have your opinions been a source of embarrassment to you for a long time now ?
? ?
I know of only one contract that was in dispute this year. The teacher involved reacted way, way over the top (with threats and abusive behavior which put a bad light on all farang staff) considering the amount involved was less than 2% of his yearly remuneration. And it was settled in the teacher's favor.

Sudden Deductions ............ This is possible. But I know of no one who actually had any of these deductions applied. I do know of many teachers who leave early consistently or take numerous days off when not sick.





Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2006, 11:50:37 am »
Quote
the amount involved was less than 2% of his yearly remuneration. And it was settled in the teacher's favor.

2% or 200% is not the point, the fact is that the teacher felt it necessary (after seeing other teachers lied to) to act in this way. Let's be honest this should not have even been an issue but this was the teacher who had had his contract whited out after it had been signed and he was probably (understandably) upset about it.

Quote
I do know of many teachers who leave early consistently or take numerous days off when not sick.

So fire them, or better still give them the facilities so that they can do their work at the school. 3 working computers between 12 members of staff is not exactly great resources.

All this does not deflect away from the main issues.

Why does BCC not honour their contracts?
Why do they not obey Thai labour law?
Why can't they tell the teachers the days of holidays and extra working days in advance?
Why have so many teachers left this year?
Why does BCC not trust its foreign teachers at all?

If the school does not trust the teachers then why the heck should the teachers trust the school?

Quote
Is your self centered little mind showing ?  Have your opinions been a source of embarrassment to you for a long time now ?

Your little personal attacks just makes you look bad.



shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2006, 01:25:19 pm »
Uwe Jus Dun Unerstan Thai Cucha  ;D ;D ;D

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2006, 06:55:34 pm »
Well after reading the nightmare stories on here I cancelled my interview with B.C.C. Thanks to everyone for the warnings. Sounds like a lot of headaches have been avoided, not to mention being out of pocket as well.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 07:06:59 pm by SouthOfHeaven »

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2006, 08:04:10 pm »
 {-}

Good call, South.  Working for BCC is only putting off your next unemployed period to October.  It's better to get it over with and find a real job now, when it's easier.

Offline Rick_BKK

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2006, 08:32:23 am »
Well after reading the nightmare stories on here I cancelled my interview with B.C.C. Thanks to everyone for the warnings. Sounds like a lot of headaches have been avoided, not to mention being out of pocket as well.

I agree with NukeThemSlowly, good call SouthofHeaven. If you look around I am sure you can find something better than BCC.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2006, 02:26:44 pm »
Well after reading the nightmare stories on here I cancelled my interview with B.C.C. Thanks to everyone for the warnings. Sounds like a lot of headaches have been avoided, not to mention being out of pocket as well.

Bad call SoH. You probably believe everything you read in the New York Times. And that is edited for accuracy. Believing what 4 or so disgruntled malcontents have to say makes even less sense. You could not go in and see for yourself ?? Pity.? This is very poor judgement on your part IMO.
But thank you. It? makes it easier for me to recommend BCC to my solid, mature, well qualified friends looking for a good place to work.

---------------------
As for samvines comments ......

All this does not deflect away from the main issues.

1/ Why does BCC not honour their contracts?
2/ Why do they not obey Thai labour law?
3/ Why can't they tell the teachers the days of holidays and extra working days in advance?
4/ Why have so many teachers left this year?
5/ Why does BCC not trust its foreign teachers at all?
-------------
This is our main point of disagreement. I do not think these are the main issues. See comments below ....

And I do not agree with your accusations. It is so easy to sling an accusation but it is not so easy to back it up with evidence.
1/ There are some 75 farang teachers at BCC. To my knowledge only 2 or 3 have problems with their contracts.
? ? ?This hardly justifies the blanket statement that ...... "BCC does not honor their contracts"
2/ Don't know. But just because one admin makes a statement does not mean the school will be unfair.
 ? ? If they are you can file a lawsuit, or file a complaint with the MOE and Labor Boards.
3/ They do. We get a schedule at the beginning of each semester. Yes a few of the days off or Saturday obligations are not
? ? mentioned but if I expect perfection from them then to be fair I would have to be perfect too. No thank you.
4/ Because, as I explained previously, most farangs are transient. The few who can make a one year contractual committment
? ? rarely stay for more than 2 years. So one would expect 25-50% to leave each year. In one dept I know, half left because they
? ? wanted to get back to their careers in the West. Normal statistics. A mystery only to you. And your implication was that these
? ? teachers left because they were unhappy. Very unfair and dishonest of you IMO.
5/? How do you know BCC does not trust the teachers ?? BCC ?? How many BCC administrators is that ? 1, 2, most ? You have no idea
? ? ?who and how much or little the INDIVIDUALS trust employees unless you can read minds. If you are referring to their skepticism
? ? ?over degrees in the interview, you surely know how many fakes from Kao San Road come through. All good businessmen are
? ? careful before making decisions. Why don't you get that ?

As for 3 computers for 12 teachers. It is just fine most of the time. Remember, during the day most teachers are in class half the time so only 1/3 to 1/2 the teachers are in the room at any given time. No problem.

To sum up, what I think is important is ..
Do we get paid in full and on time ?? ? Answer:? ?AFAIK, everyone does and has been each and EVERY month for years and years.
Are the resources and working conditions good ?? ?Answer:? They are as good or better than anywhere in Thailand.?
And as an added benefit  (but of secondary importance to me),  the pay is better than 90% of jobs out there.

You can add all your other expectations to that and make yourself miserable and angry if you want. 
Go right ahead. Knock yourself out.? ?

Good luck to you.




« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 02:54:53 pm by bkkman »

shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2006, 10:13:33 pm »
 {:;
Let me third that--South, you made the correct move.  You probably have a bright future ahead of you as a teacher.  They contacted you soon after you arrived in Thailand and tempted you with what is attractive pay, by Thai standards.  But, you followed our advice and your instincts and said "NO."  This speaks volumes about your character and self-esteem.

"Three or Four Malcontents"?  How about the many others, who were black-mailed, threatened, and/or assaulted and do not post?  How about the 180 or so negative comments on the old tsw?  I said before--If BCC does not make the "Hall" within 60 days; I will run from Hua Hin to BKK--naked.  Let me change that--I will run from Hat Yai to BKK naked, without the 9 mm pistol being discounted to teachers in the southland.

I love Thailand, that is why the truth must be told. {:;

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2006, 10:22:53 am »
Well after reading the nightmare stories on here I cancelled my interview with B.C.C. Thanks to everyone for the warnings. Sounds like a lot of headaches have been avoided, not to mention being out of pocket as well.

Bad call SoH. You probably believe everything you read in the New York Times. And that is edited for accuracy. Believing what 4 or so disgruntled malcontents have to say makes even less sense. You could not go in and see for yourself ?? Pity.? This is very poor judgement on your part IMO.
But thank you. It? makes it easier for me to recommend BCC to my solid, mature, well qualified friends looking for a good place to work.



Well even if I've made a wrong judgement and the excuses you've given for the complaints people have made here are true, then you have a serious problem in that your school has a terrible reputation, be it undeserved or not. I also spoke to my fellow teachers about BCC. One laughed in disbelief when I told him I was applying and I was told that it would be "a step down" by another who also told me an anecdote about BCC that involved the police. You probably know the story better than I do. Who needs that? Still other teachers assured me it was not a good place to work. So you'd better work on your schools image because it's name is in the gutter. BTW I'm studying for a Masters of Education and have solid years of professional experience behing me and I am looking for a good place to work. There's no smoke without fire, ever heard that one? Best of luck.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 11:22:33 am by SouthOfHeaven »

Offline MrQ

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2006, 11:56:12 am »
I would like you to have gone to the interview and reported back though.

Can you go anyway and bring back some information?

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2006, 02:53:40 pm »
1/ There are some 75 farang teachers at BCC. To my knowledge only 2 or 3 have problems with their contracts.
? ? ?This hardly justifies the blanket statement that ...... "BCC does not honor their contracts"

Teacher A was promised a merit increase which was not honoured and left in disgust after trying his best to get what had been agreed, it was only a 500 baht a month increase and he could not get it.

Teacher B was also promised a 500 baht merit increase and he was unable to get it.

Teacher C was promised an increase after probation which was removed from the contract after signature and he had to fight to get it.

Teacher D and E had to pay an agency a monthly amount for their own job.

Teacher F left after having their work permit cancelled on purpose and ran up an overstay fine of 20,000 baht which they did not know about.


2/ Don't know. But just because one admin makes a statement does not mean the school will be unfair.
? ? ?If they are you can file a lawsuit, or file a complaint with the MOE and Labor Boards.

Filing a law suit from an individual against a huge, rich school like BCC is very hard, although one ex teacher has managed it for being let go after the probationary period.

3/ They do. We get a schedule at the beginning of each semester. Yes a few of the days off or Saturday obligations are not
? ? mentioned but if I expect perfection from them then to be fair I would have to be perfect too. No thank you.

That's just not true is it? Staff asked and asked for the schedule and never got it. Last minute additions were given at short notice

4/ Because, as I explained previously, most farangs are transient. The few who can make a one year contractual committment
? ? rarely stay for more than 2 years. So one would expect 25-50% to leave each year. In one dept I know, half left because they
? ? wanted to get back to their careers in the West. Normal statistics. A mystery only to you. And your implication was that these
? ? teachers left because they were unhappy. Very unfair and dishonest of you IMO.

It is interesting that you blame the teachers for being transient instead of blaming the school for employing them; the fact remains that many many many teachers leave and do not want to stay even if they are given the choice. The school has the choice who it employs, it is unfair to blame all the teachers for the school's inablility to recruit and retain competent teachers.

5/? How do you know BCC does not trust the teachers ?? BCC ?? How many BCC administrators is that ? 1, 2, most ? You have no idea
? ? ?who and how much or little the INDIVIDUALS trust employees unless you can read minds. If you are referring to their skepticism
? ? ?over degrees in the interview, you surely know how many fakes from Kao San Road come through. All good businessmen are
? ? careful before making decisions. Why don't you get that ?

Any school that steals 20,000 baht from each teacher does not trust their teachers. Any school that uses probation to divide its staff is not one to be trusted. Transparancy is required for trust and there is none at this school. Communication is needed for trust and there is none at this school.

South of Heaven you made the right choice and saved yourself a lot of bother. Good luck with your studies and finding work at a place that will treat you as a professional.

Good teachers deserve a good school.
A good school deserves good teachers.

BCC could be a great place to work, it could be a wonderful place to work.? BCC needs to change, it needs to do something to dispel this awful reputation it now has. Even the "good"? ;D salaries? are not high enough to attract quality people.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 03:02:21 pm by samvimes »

shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2006, 05:03:34 pm »

Like Paul Harvey would say......."Page 7".............
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 05:12:33 pm by shocked »

Offline blackpanther

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2006, 05:14:49 pm »
I was called to the second interview with BCC but after talking with friends and reading the stuff on here I decided against it.

One friend had worked there a few years back and seemed very positive about it. He told that I would have to basically keep my head down and kiss Thai ass.....not my forte I'm afraid. Another friend told me the afore-mentioned tale of the teacher, fake degree that was not and the police. That put the nail in the coffin for me.

I took a job with another school who are, incidentally,  paying me a lot more and have already sent me a copy of my contract to view. I haven't signed it yet but all seems well.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #87 on: April 03, 2006, 07:51:53 pm »
Although I'm strongly tempted to let Shocked make the evening news, could we give this infamous school a place in the Hall of Shame already?

Offline SouthOfHeaven

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2006, 08:20:42 pm »
What does a school have to do to enter the Hall of Shame anyway? What are the criteria?

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2006, 11:30:48 pm »
Quote from: SouthOfHeaven
What does a school have to do to enter the Hall of Shame anyway? What are the criteria?

Be bad!  ;D (And feature on here with details of why it's bad {-})

I feel sure this school is headed that way ;D

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2006, 08:26:45 am »
I think from the actual facts I have mentioned just in the contract alone.

Would be enough to put them in the hall of shame. Also having the largest thread must also say something.

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2006, 01:36:54 pm »
I think from the actual facts I have mentioned just in the contract alone.

Would be enough to put them in the hall of shame. Also having the largest thread must also say something.


It is possible for a good school to have a long thread, but unfortunately, that is not too common. The Hall of Shame for this Sunday has already been written, but not published.

Offline ponder

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2006, 10:06:54 pm »
I was called to the second interview with BCC but after talking with friends and reading the stuff on here I decided against it.

One friend had worked there a few years back and seemed very positive about it. He told that I would have to basically keep my head down and kiss Thai ass.....not my forte I'm afraid. Another friend told me the afore-mentioned tale of the teacher, fake degree that was not and the police. That put the nail in the coffin for me.

I took a job with another school who are, incidentally,? paying me a lot more and have already sent me a copy of my contract to view. I haven't signed it yet but all seems well.

Really?

What school and how much? Let's be transparent here seeing as BCC is not being spared. Also, how much did BCC offer you?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 10:09:17 pm by ponder »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2006, 10:18:43 pm »
I don't really think that would add much to the debate, we are after all debating alleged management malpractice at Bangkok Christian College ;)

Offline ponder

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2006, 10:38:09 pm »
I don't really think that would add much to the debate, we are after all debating alleged management malpractice at Bangkok Christian College ;)

Would not add much to the debate? Then why mention it?

Objection overruled.


Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #95 on: April 05, 2006, 10:44:18 pm »
Quote
Would not add much to the debate? Then why mention it?

I didn't.  You did.  Stay on topic please in this forum :)

Offline blackpanther

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2006, 01:11:00 am »
Really?

What school and how much? Let's be transparent here seeing as BCC is not being spared. Also, how much did BCC offer you?

Yes really!

My new school. A lot more than English Solutions could ever hope to offer.

BCC didn't ever offer me anything. They called me out of the blue after I updated my picture on ajarn. I saw the ad on ajarn later. It started at 46g.


I trust my judgement and my judgement said...."BCC suck as much as ES"

 {2<g>

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2006, 02:07:21 pm »
Well it would seem that my voice is in the minority
here. So if the powers that be on this website choose
to put BCC into some Hall of XXXXX, let the record show
the following recent facts ....

1/ Thanks to some vocal and courageous teacher's requests,
BCC Admins changed the standard contract to allow the 20KTHB
holdback cash to be returned to those teachers who
have renewed contracts a 2nd time rather than the
previous condition that it be held until they leave
employment at BCC.

2/ As numerous teachers this year chose to return to their
respective countries at the end of the school year,
it became inconvenient for them to collect their funds
due and the bonuses before they left. School ended on 20March
and normal pay day is the day before the last day of the month.
BCC Admins granted the requests that all teachers be paid 10 days
in advance, on the last school day, so that these funds could be
collected before they left Thailand.

These two actions on the part of BCC Mgt show a flexibility
and willingness to listen to and help teachers with their needs.
So while BCC Mgt may not be perfect, it is unfair to paint them
as all bad.

Just for the record.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2006, 02:26:57 pm »
 ^^^^ Good to hear {-}

Just out of interest, do you believe that these "policy changes" are the result of criticism from outside (here and TSW for example), criticism from "respected" teachers within the organisation or due to some "culrural shift"?  I'm not making any judgments, just interested in the perceptions of those benefitting from any changes :)

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2006, 04:08:14 pm »
What I believe is probably irrelevant here. But what I do know from teachers
with 4 years experience at BCC is that the contract and general situation has improved
steadily each year.

This would suggest to me that BCC Thai Admins have slowly come to understand
(with the help of Farang feedback and requests) and make changes to accomodate
Farang culture and expectations.

However, since most teachers at BCC (and elsewhere) are relatively new to the
school, Thailand and sometimes to teaching itself, they start with little to no
understanding of cultural differences. This could explain why so many do not
understand Thai ways and culture. And this would surely lead to discontentment
and criticism.

Maybe some of the criticism is justified. But as I have said before, those
seeking perfection will be looking for a very ... very long time, especially if
they are an alien in a country far from their origins.


Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2006, 04:43:54 pm »
Quote from: Bkkman
However, since most teachers at BCC (and elsewhere) are relatively new to the school, Thailand and sometimes to teaching itself, they start with little to no understanding of cultural differences. This could explain why so many do not understand Thai ways and culture. And this would surely lead to discontentment and criticism.

This is inevitably the crux of the matter in so many of these cases.  However, I don't believe that this is a good enough excuse for a school with a long history of employing foreign staff.  Teachers that are new can be forgiven cultural ignorance, employers with years of experience cannot.  While I agree that it is a very difficult situation at times, I believe schools (particularly farang admins) should be rigorously proactive in helping people acclimatise to a new culture and a new workplace.  This should be the norm and not something that is raved about in a handful of schools!

Quote
But as I have said before, those seeking perfection will be looking for a very ... very long time, especially if they are an alien in a country far from their origins.

Perfection, whether attainable or not, is the noblest of goals

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2006, 11:22:43 am »
1/ Thanks to some vocal and courageous teacher's requests......

Interesting to note that the main vocal and courageous teachers had their contracts terminated as a result of being brave and courageous.....

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2006, 02:48:23 pm »
1/ Thanks to some vocal and courageous teacher's requests......

Interesting to note that the main vocal and courageous teachers had their contracts terminated as a result of being brave and courageous.....

Yes thats true the main vocalists had their contracts not renewed. Also the part of the admin paying the farang staff the flight bonus and salary on last working day, should be clarified that they did this the previous year without asking and the teacher's had to fight to get the same this year,but still have to wait for April pay and end of contract bonus. Which was screamed to one member of staff he wont get untill 28th April by the Director. I guess the school don't want to lose the 50 satang in interest by giving all money in March to leaving teachers.

But can all listed problems be due to ignorance or just racism?????? I wonder what the Thai teachers contracts like? Worse or better than the farangoes contract????


shocked

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2006, 06:00:56 pm »
Bangkok Christian College:? Well, it is in Bangkok; that part I will agree with them.? But, the few defenders of this school are really only saying their contracts were honored.? There is overwhelming evidence, however, that this institution engages in a pattern of delaying pay and stalling just to maintain a certain type of leverage on its employees.? Will there be some disputes at the end of April?? Almost certainly.
Will the teachers have recourse?? Probably not, and I doubt the Admin's degree of understanding will improve with you back in your native country.

But please read my previous posts.? Even if they were completely honorable in the way they dealt with the contracts, this would still be an awful place to be employed.? Let's hear more about the threats, assaults, and working conditions.? It is ironic that a teacher should be a leader.? After all, you are expected to lead a group of 30 or 40 students and you are legally responsible for them.? But in my opinion, someone, who is a natural leader, will have a very difficult time there.? It is difficult for a leader to keep quiet, when absurdities are taking place.? It is difficult to not tell a student to put the scissors down, for fear of reprisals.? That is why I was very dissappointed in my co-workers, they seemed to be unlike the natural leaders I had previously had the privillege of working with.? In order to survive your contract at this institution it might be helpful to be a short, deaf, mute.? Not an outspoken leader of young men.

Not only does this, formerley black-listed school, deserve to be in the "Hall;" the trophy should be named after a certain Administrator, and I'm not writing about the one who loses passports.

Best of luck with the upcoming school year to everyone.? I hope that you find employment, where you can proudly look at yourself in the mirror every morning.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 11:21:40 pm by shocked »

Offline Shatapon

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #104 on: April 10, 2006, 12:16:04 pm »
quote author=samvimes link=topic=53.msg1036#msg1036 date=1144383763]
1/ Thanks to some vocal and courageous teacher's requests......

Interesting to note that the main vocal and courageous teachers had their contracts terminated as a result of being brave and courageous.....
Quote


First of all, congrats to BCC on their recent winning- that is, their winning entry to the "Hall of Shame".


***Long Post Warning***

I personally know and consider myself to be a personal friend of the main vocal teacher whose contract was not renewed. This teacher was probably responsible, single-handedly, for:

1. negotiating the return of the security deposit. I recall him talking about the extensive contract negotiations last year when he brought this up.

2. ensuring that the school actually gave the 40 holidays promised in the contract. Said teacher took it upon himself to actually count the holidays and determined that BCC was only giving 33 days. After several minor discussions about this issue, NONE of which were held with or responded to by the board, he was finally told that the 40 days promised in the contract were, "...just a guideline." The school eventually issued a new calendar, moving the last day of school from 30 March to 20 March. Interestingly enough- the calendar was one of the few things in writing. They HAD to change it. When they did, they snuck in three extra Saturday/afterschool events.

3. ensuring that the previous requirement to work however many Saturdays, evenings and after school hours as the board demanded was renegotiated to ONLY(?) 8 additional days. The school refused to put this in the contract after agreeing to it in a meeting last year, a meeting attended by said teacher, the farang EIP administrator and 2 Thai administrators. Said teacher repeatedly reminded the school about their verbal agreement, as the number of extra days crept up to 15 extra days, including a mandatory summer camp for four 24 hour days added at the last minute. The school ended up grudgingly stating at the LAST MINUTE, that attendance was NOT mandatory for many of those days. The extra summer camp days still brought it over 8 days.

4. fighting to get the word "normally" excised from several people's contract, as in "...will normally be required to work 22 hours...".

5. fighting to get "spouse" added to the list of family members whose death earns one a holiday. The school actually refused to put that in the contract.

6. fighting to have clarified what the top pay rate is, in light of the fact that teachers were told, in their contracts, that their pay would increase until they "...reached the top of the relevant pay scale...". The school agreed to this, then refused to tell teachers what that rate is.


Some other assorted crap:

1.   We who attended the summer camp were told we would get 3300 baht for the 4 days (kind of cheap, yes?). Turns out, we were given 2000 baht- because we were told after the fact that we had to pay for our own rooms! WTF!!??

2.   Our Thai coordinator was another vindictive type, losing papers (the science department never got any money this year, because she lost the budget request- TWICE!!). She lost some of the midterm exams, but still managed to assign a grade to the students- she gave them their grade in physical education as their science grade.

3.   Thai coordinator was also a thief- my outspoken friend arranged a trip to the new aquarium, with a behind the scenes tour, boat ride, workbooks,  an English speaking guide (the students are forbidden to speak Thai in the EIP program), etc., all for 280 baht. It was refused. He was told to do it the next week, after she called and renegotiated the price. She managed to get the price down to 200 baht- but lost the tour, the boat ride, the workbooks and the English speaking guide, basically, gutting the educational value of the trip. My friend was given the cash to pay for the tickets. The receipt from the aquarium showed the price: 150 baht!! He pressed her several times to account for the remaining 50 baht. Excuse #1: it?s to pay for the BTS ride. Fact: the students paid themselves, at the BTS. Excuse #2: BCC has to pay 50 baht more than Thai government schools, who only have to pay 100 baht. Fact: this has nothing to do with the increase from 150 to 200 baht. And the final excuse? The students are lying, they got their money back. Fact: No, they were asking themselves about the money.



Pitiful, stealing from kids. But, when your role model is the BCC admin, what can one expect.



BCC did pay what they were supposed to on 20 March- but, they went back and forth many times on whether they would or not. And, as another poster mentioned, they did pay last year, so this was not any kind of bonus.


Every issue goes through the farang EIP administrator, so there was/is never any direct response from the board, no responsibility, no chance for questions- even though meetings were requested several times this year.


Bear in mind that, according to him, said teacher negotiated many items with the school and was told several times that those items would be put in a rider to be attached to last year?s contract. That just did not happen. The administration apparently had quite a bug up their respective asses regarding this teacher, one of many bona fide teachers with good credentials, experience, good classroom management skills, a degree in education, etc. He was refused his copy of his teacher's license, he had to fight to get and keep his work permit and, according to him?

?he was just screwed out of his non-imm B visa by a person whose name I shall bleep out: Pra-bleep.

Last year, Pra-bleep made an error and made sure that some people?s visa expired at the end of March, rather than at the end of April, when the contract expires. We were all told last year that he couldn?t fix it then, but Pra-bleep assured us that he would get a 1 month extension in March and then a 1 year extension at the end of April.

My friend has been complaining rather loudly all year that somebody was going to get screwed- and it now looks like he is one of them. He was taken by Pra-bleep to immigration on 20 March to get his extension. This was after I sat with my friend for over 2 hours in Pra-bleep?s office, with Pra-bleep saying my friend would have to do it 31 March, knowing all the while that my friend was leaving the country THAT AFTERNOON. Turns out, when they got to immigration, Pra-bleep ?forgot? one of the necessary forms from MoE. ?Sorry cannot do, come back 31 March?. My friend told him that was impossible, just give him papers to get a new non-imm B. After much excuse making, Pra-bleep gave him papers to go to SINGAPORE and told him that BCC would pay the cost of the visa- but that?s all.

Now, the defenders will say that was mighty white of good ol? Pra-bleep. However, BCC is contracted to provide all paperwork throughout the contract- which they did not do for my friend. Rather a nasty, petty, vindictive thing to do- but, that is the passive-aggressive experience that we who are still at BCC still enjoy.

My friend decided not to go to Singapore, but instead cut short his holiday and returned the following week to tell Pra-bleep to take him to immi on 31 March. ?Cannot, still not have paper from MoE? he was told. Oddly enough, the secretary was picking up the paperwork for other teachers at that moment. Then, it was learned that Pra-bleep was taking holiday- STARTING 31 MARCH! The slimy barstard never had any intention of renewing the visa for the whining farang.

Most of the other crap can be dealt with- this screwing around with somebody?s livelihood is deliberate, inexcusable and reprehensible.

The school OFFERS good money and provides a nice physical environment. It's a great place to work if empty platitudes and a Hoolywood-storefront approach to education satisfy you. That doesn?t make any of the nonsense the right thing to do. Excused because they are better than many other schools? Just because a pile of dog shit is smaller than a pile of elephant shit doesn?t make it any better than a pile of shit.



Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2006, 03:49:51 pm »
Great post.
Some of you guys deserve a medal for the cr@p that you put up with from Thai admin. I think your calmness and your ability to bite your lip is something to be truly admired. Hearing about the kids being swindled out of 50 baht really made me angry.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 03:52:10 pm by Bangkok Phil »

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2006, 11:49:57 pm »
quote author=samvimes link=topic=53.msg1036#msg1036 date=1144383763]

The school OFFERS good money and provides a nice physical environment.

If you believe that is a nice physical environment; you must live in a pile of shit.? But, eventually a pile of shit will turn white.? How about the crowded workroom.? Oh, and by the way it is also the students' playground.? How about the way students are permitted to behave in the corridors?? How about the noise level at assemblies?? I would recommend earplugs.? How about a nice comfortable 100 baht chair to sit in and grade 130 papers?

I admit, the land is worth a fortune, however, the buildings are a liability.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 01:00:56 pm by Hua-hin-prof »

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #107 on: April 11, 2006, 07:12:43 am »
If any of you are curious, BCC has a listing in the wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangkok_Christian_College

Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, editable by anyone.

Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #108 on: April 11, 2006, 11:12:37 am »
Hua Hin Prof, I don't wish to come across as pedantic but you need to realise how the quote function...er.... functions, because I can't work out what you are tring to do. I notice that you've done it in two of your three posts. I can't find your third one.

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #109 on: April 11, 2006, 01:03:09 pm »
Phil:

Sorry about that..... ^^^^I've at least corrected this one above.  See you at Nana.

Offline MrQ

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2006, 09:24:16 am »
And it still goes on.

Interesting to see thought that some people do have good things to say about the school.

My first experience of working in Thailand was at a Catholic school.

I wasn't ready for the culture shock and had no idea how to handle Thai's properly.

I would be interested to know how many of the new teachers at BCC suffer from culture shock which makes the situation feel 100x's worse for them.

Offline DW

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2006, 02:54:25 pm »
I am so glad I am out of that place now.  The Hall of Shame is thoroughly deserved.

I cannot remember who is was that was complaining about teachers being transient.  I do not think he realises that one reason teachers are transient is because they move to hopefully better jobs - that why I moved after one year.  I dont see any point in staying in a place that I do not like and do not trust and set policemen on their staff.

Hopefully my new school is better.

Offline ponder

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #112 on: April 14, 2006, 02:00:23 am »
Great post.
Some of you guys deserve a medal for the cr@p that you put up with from Thai admin. I think your calmness and your ability to bite your lip is something to be truly admired. Hearing about the kids being swindled out of 50 baht really made me angry.

Great post if you believe it all Phil.

I have been in Thailand only one year and I went to BCC for a number of reasons : my previous school was in the styx and I am allergic to mosquitos, of vhich there were millions because it was next to a rice field.

I went to BCC and I could not believe how much better it was than my previous school. Classes of kids who can all understand English; maximumk 18 kids in a class (16 was my biggest class); lovely kids who want to learn, fellow teachers who want to teach and who want to have fun after school as well and I don't mean (necessarily) in Patpong or Sukhumvit. I met many whinging teachers when I first got there and I was thinking maybe I had made a bad move. No, they were the ones that had made the bad move because they didn't realise what a good deal they had and when they did not have their contracts renewed, they could not believe it. "Why do we have to stay at school until it closes? We should be able to go home to bed when we finish our last class". So, why does anyone have to stay at work until their contracted hours are served?

If you employed someone to work for you and they spent all their time in coffee shops complaining about the job that they were supposed to be doing, how would you feel? Would you renew their contracts?

I know BCC is not perfect but I really believe it is one of the better schools in Bangkok (okay, I've only worked in one other school) and I know that most (probably not all) of the whingers are wasters. If you hated where you worked, would you leave or would you stay and badmouth the place? Why stay?

I contacted ajarn.com before I came to Thailand to ask for advice and whilst some of it was constructive, a lot of it was just rubbish from people who had nothing better to do than complain. One guy even psychoanalysed me for for free and completely inaccurately (Mr. Snafu).? (I posted on ajarn under the name JohnF). I really believe that you should take everything you hear / read with a pinch of salt.

BCC is not perfect but it's better than the teachers that it has sacked. In my opinion.

John.





Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #113 on: April 14, 2006, 08:01:38 am »
Way to go John, you are standing up for the man.

May I remind you that standing up for the man and slighting your fellow teachers may get you praise from your school now, but you will have to live with that statement and don't be surprised that further down the road, the school will do you the same as it has done others.....just as soon as your usefulness is gone(ie you don't sign a new contract, you don't do exactly what they want you to do, etc, etc)

Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #114 on: April 14, 2006, 09:23:41 am »
Great post.
Some of you guys deserve a medal for the cr@p that you put up with from Thai admin. I think your calmness and your ability to bite your lip is something to be truly admired. Hearing about the kids being swindled out of 50 baht really made me angry.

Great post if you believe it all Phil.

I have been in Thailand only one year and I went to BCC for a number of reasons : my previous school was in the styx and I am allergic to mosquitos, of vhich there were millions because it was next to a rice field.

I went to BCC and I could not believe how much better it was than my previous school. Classes of kids who can all understand English; maximumk 18 kids in a class (16 was my biggest class); lovely kids who want to learn, fellow teachers who want to teach and who want to have fun after school as well and I don't mean (necessarily) in Patpong or Sukhumvit. I met many whinging teachers when I first got there and I was thinking maybe I had made a bad move.

So let me just get this straight. You accuse other teachers of being whingers but left your previous school because it had too many mosquitoes and had the audacity to be next to a rice field. Did you miss the rice field when you went to the interview? You know man - there are a lot of those damn mosquitoes out in the sticks.

Offline Pieman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #115 on: April 14, 2006, 09:37:24 am »
HEALTH ALERT

Some mossquitos can carry malaria and dengue fever. Believe me you don't need those. I think this is a valid reason to move.

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #116 on: April 14, 2006, 10:31:05 am »
Mozzies are a valid reason to leave?
Well to me, it seems that its a very, very stupid man who did not take mozzies into consideration before making the move to a tropical country in the first place. Pieman with the exception of a few places on the borders with myanmar and cambodia, maleria has all but been eradicated and the vast majority of mozzies dont carry Dengue. I somehow suspect that the poor mozzy was just an excuse to move to the big lights and it was more the attraction of "have[ing] fun after school as well and I don't mean (necessarily) in Patpong or Sukhumvit." that induced the move.

I am glad for mr ponder, along with the old doctor from TSW days that they are enjoying their position right now, maybe they enjoy that type of atmosphere in their place of work, but I have to agree with Che as well and look forward to a day maybe next month, maybe next year when Mr ponder has to eat his words.

Offline durian

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2006, 01:40:04 am »
I have been in Thailand only one year and I went to BCC for a number of reasons : my previous school was in the styx and I am allergic to mosquitos, of vhich there were millions because it was next to a rice field.

I went to BCC and I could not believe how much better it was than my previous school.

I can see how, compared to? a school in Timbuktu, BCC could be better, and its students might speak better English. And, to quote a previous poster, it also helps to be a "short, deaf, mute."

Offline durian

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2006, 01:50:53 am »
I personally know and consider myself to be a personal friend of the main vocal teacher whose contract was not renewed.

Excellent post with many cogent points. I have first-hand knowledge of most of the events mentioned in this post, and the post is factually accurate.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2006, 06:30:42 am »
Ah, it's a pleasure to see BCC's new "status" here.  They've certainly earned it.

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2006, 10:54:48 am »
Isn't? "piling on"? a penalty which grants the offended team 15 yards and
a replay of the down ?
(This is American football for you Brits and other roundballers)

First and ten BCC.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 10:56:44 am by bkkman »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2006, 10:58:17 am »
 ^^^^ For the British amongst us, you are going to have to explain that last comment.  I'm sure it's very clever and all, but I have no idea what on earth you are saying ???

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2006, 11:35:22 am »

http://www.newsdial.com/sports/football/football-penalties.html

See section "Penalties against the defense", No 7.



Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2006, 12:05:35 pm »
No I understood that you were talking about some foul in American Football.  I just thought you should clarify the point you were trying to make in relation to this thread!  (Sorry if I was too cryptic for ya!)

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #124 on: April 18, 2006, 01:51:11 pm »

Isn't  "piling on"  a penalty which grants the offended team 15 yards and
a replay of the down ?
(This is American football for you Brits and other roundballers)
First and ten BCC.

Not so quickly, BKKman.  Comparing The NFL to BCC is the wrong dichotomy.  One is legitimate, the other is not.  One the employees are in a union, the other, they are as disposable as a satay stick.  One, the employees grievances are settled through mutual arbitration, the other, employees are threatened, assaulted, and/or blackmailed.

OK, so maybe there was some "piling on."  But there are other flags on the field.  Namely:  illegal procedure--BCC, unsportsmanlike conduct--BCC, illegal use of the hands--BCC employees, illegal equipment--BCC, not enough men on the field--BCC, and finally; Holding (contracts, passports, work permits, and other critical documents)--BCC.

First and ten?  Looks more to me like first and 99. <lo{<sr>
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 03:24:38 pm by Hua-hin-prof »

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #125 on: April 18, 2006, 02:26:42 pm »
Funny post, Hua-hin-prof!

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #126 on: April 18, 2006, 02:30:18 pm »
It all sounds like a foreign language to me!

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #127 on: April 18, 2006, 04:10:54 pm »
Well BCC always seem to kick the teachers in the Penalty box. 

javascript:void(0);
Kick in the Nuts


NamTok

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #128 on: April 18, 2006, 06:23:14 pm »
Well done, indeed, Hua-hin-prof!

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #129 on: April 19, 2006, 08:45:00 pm »
It sounds like the thread has turned into a lot of griping rather than a lot of facts. If someone wnats to add something constructive to this after 7 days, just pm me or any of the mods and we will unlock this thread, but only after 7 days.

The last several posts, some very funny ones, have been split off and can be found in the Sour Gripes forum. I hope you all will take the time to post your gripes and Sarasas and BCC there. I enjoy reading the posts.

Offline airpuka

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Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2006, 11:50:04 pm »
Yea so this is just great i think i got a sweet ass job and now everyone on this website is saying its infact one of the worst in thailand. I went thru the 2 interviews and they did ask me some stupid questions like do you smoke and do you drink, which i think is irrelevant to teaching as long as i dont show up drunk or smelling of it , but other then that everything else seemed great, i start next month so ill try to report the good and the bad from a new teachers point of view and if i get screwed over then i guess you all told me so, but i have to find out for my self.

Uncle Che

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2006, 06:49:19 am »
yes you will have to report to us the good and bad. You have the job and hopefully you can be one of those who actually has a good experience at the school. I wish you the best of luck. You found this website a little late in your job search, but never fear. You gained  a lot of knowledge from the threads and knowledge is power. Some schools gain the upper hand by keeping a teacher in the dark, but they are not able to have that leverage over you.  You know their end game strategy before it even begins.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #132 on: April 21, 2006, 12:37:45 pm »

Keep looking for other jobs (you'll want to pretty soon, believe me).  When you have one lined up, try to make your starting date as close as possible to right after payday at BCC.  Take the money and give notice at the same time.

If possible, in the meantime do not let them finish processing your work permit.  This is anti-intuitive, but if they actually process your work permit it makes it harder to get away from them (they can hold up on a paper you need to transfer the work permit to your next job and make things a lot harder for you there, plus if they backdate your firing and cancel the work permit they can force you to leave the country or even overstay).  Stall.  Forget to bring your transcript for the teacher's license, and then forget to bring your passport on visa days.  Make an extra visa run if necessary.  Go easy on the incompetent "human resources" manager and let him know he can take as much time as he wants.  He'll think you're his best buddy.

If you make the mistake of trusting them, you will likely be fired for some reason or another near the end of term.  This would also be an excellent time to be looking for a new job, just in case.  Do not give them the grades before they have given you your final paycheck to your satisfaction.

Another hint:  Keep an eye on your back.  Don't post on this board while you're at work, or let anyone there know you post on this board.

Good luck.

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #133 on: April 21, 2006, 03:52:24 pm »
Airpuka:

Besides having another job lined up, I would suggest that you have a psychologist lined up as well.? You will most definitely need counseling to overcome the moral scarring that will affect your soul.? You may find it difficult to ever step foot into a Christian house of worship.? You may also suffer from paranoia from being lied to and cheated so many times.? You may develop a complete disliking of persons of nationalities diiferent than yours.

Maybe, it will be after they tell you that you need to be there by 7:15, even though the contract says 7:30.? Perhaps, it will be the first time you see a male teacher hugging M-1 boys.? It won't be long, please let us know.? And, remember to have that reservation on the green sofa.

Paranoia:
1.? A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent?
? ? ?logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

 {^^

« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 07:05:08 pm by Hua-hin-prof »

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #134 on: April 21, 2006, 05:31:03 pm »

  Do not give them the grades before they have given you your final paycheck to your satisfaction.


Well its a good idea but they give you a deadline before your paycheck with the comment not grades no cash.  They did it in March and they will do it again.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #135 on: April 21, 2006, 05:56:40 pm »
kor tot
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 06:45:00 pm by bkkman »

Offline airpuka

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #136 on: April 21, 2006, 06:12:15 pm »
Thanks alot for all the info but after carfully reading this board im just going to tell BCC to piss off  and keep the other job i have lined up already

this site looks like it defnitly saved me some hard core drama

thanks

Offline Bangkok Phil

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2006, 09:01:43 am »
You really should tell BCC the reason why you are not going to accept the job.
It's sure to make someone sit up and take notice.

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2006, 09:22:30 am »
Fully agree with you there, Phil.

Offline airpuka

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2006, 10:44:34 am »
yea you guys are right i should tell them that they basically have such a bad reputation of screwing over teachers that i cant be bothered taking a job that i can be sacked from for no reason whatsoever, i do need job security here or else the party is over and i have to go back home. but im a little worried that they can screw me over some how what could they possibly do to me, i did afterall sign a contract  and they have copies of my passport and degree.

Offline MrQ

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Re: Signed a contract with bcc and then heard about this web site
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2006, 09:10:04 pm »
Please do tell us what they say and what feedback they give you.

Direct them to this website.

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2006, 01:48:20 pm »
It's the end of the month, and many of us would like to know if the BCC teachers were paid.  Wouldn't it be great if one of their administrators would come on this site and make a statement?  I guarantee you they know about this site, and they read the posts as well.  At least they could make a few understatements like "there have been a few problems".....Did you notice in their employment ads, that they do not even mention USA.  What's up with that?  Maybe, the Americans are most averse to being treated like a cow pie.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 03:19:08 pm by Hua-hin-prof »

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2006, 02:39:17 pm »
Remembering the last version of this site, their staff don't do too well posting on here... they crudely threatened the op and fawned all over anyone who was defending them.

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2006, 03:10:23 pm »
Bangkok Christian College EIP Program

BCC EIP, a program based at BCC (an all-boys school near Surasak Station BTS on Sathorn downtown), is an all-foreign-taught EP program employing a growing number of foreign teachers for various subjects from English to math to science to health, even P.E.

Avoid it! The working conditions (roughly 50K beginning wages) look good at first glance; they are good in comparison to 30K TEFL jobs - if you keep the job. I've known multiple people in various subjects who had problems with dishonest management, and the uptight, snobbish, parents of the spoilt students there.

Usually these problems come just within the boundaries of the law, though the school was recently slapped with a fine when sued by an employee for their favorite trick of firing new workers who believe they have not "passed probation" right before what would supposedly be paid vacations. Seems that the school didn't realize their definition of probation violated Thailand's labour laws on the subject.

Turnover is incredibly high. At this point in time, only a few of the foreign teachers there have stayed/survived over a year. The teachers who stay tend in general to do so by being entertainers and by ignoring the atrocities committed by their students. I once witnessed one of the more "popular" teachers being pelted by paper balls in a class full of screaming kids pitifully trying to maintain his composure in the classroom.

Sycophancy is another useful tool of survival at BCC. Many teachers tear down others to avoid being targetted by the paranoid middle and upper management. Being willing to put up with the inefficiency and almost endless paperwork is a good way to stay under the radar.

There is a token foreign manager (who has changed almost every year over the last few years) who has no power. It does not matter what he reports about your teaching or your performance; if the EIP program head from the "Board" wants you out for whatever reason (the most common unstated reason being that you've offended some parent by forcing her precious little worm to behave), you'll be out. Most of the time the parents will not contact you, your boss, or even the "Board" member in charge of EIP; they have the phone number of the school director and speak directly to him/her. You'll be lucky if ever you know there's any problem, much less supported in any educational terms in resolving it.

Sometimes they show completely callous disregard for their foreign employees; one man was told that he couldn't keep his job the next year unless his wife (a popular lady with the parents) stayed. Another man was promised that his wife would be given a job when he came to work there; she wasn't. A third man was fired after being promised a job for the following year, because another teacher had secretly demanded it. The teachers who have lost their jobs before vacation for no reason because they didn't "pass probation" are too numerous to list. While a number of them have in fact been unsatisfactory employees, an equal number simply were axed because a parent (even a single parent), a Thai staff member, or even another teacher stabbed them in the back. Some of the nicer parents there have complained that teacher turnover is too high as a result of this constant infighting, and many of their (nicer) students have left the school as a result of this dissatisfaction.

It's just as pleasant as it sounds. They've acquired such a poor reputation among teachers in Bangkok that they're now apparently forced to go through a hiring agency. Foreign teachers from other schools have told me they've had to yell at BCC students on the BTS to behave (I am not making this up).

If this sounds worth it for 50K (while you keep the job), then be my guest.

I wanted to revive this post.  Ironically, it was the first post on this thread, and possibly the best.  I find the author's statements to be highly truthful and accurate.  The author covers many aspects of life, or should I say "misery," at BCC.  The comments about the parents, the administrators, the Board, the foreign teachers, and even the precious little angels should all be considered if you are asked to work there.

The few proponents of this school seem to be rather quiet lately.  I wonder if they are looking for their April pay.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 03:23:13 pm by Hua-hin-prof »

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2006, 03:27:54 pm »
It's the end of the month, and many of us would like to know if the BCC teachers were paid.? Wouldn't it be great if one of their administrators would come on this site and make a statement?? I guarantee you they know about this site, and they read the posts as well.? At least they could make a few understatements like "there have been a few problems".....Did you notice in their employment ads, that they do not even mention USA.? What's up with that?? Maybe, the Americans are most averse to being treated like a cow pie.

I was paid everything, including the nice bonuses, as I always have been over the last three years.  :)

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2006, 03:51:49 pm »
I'm glad you were paid in full.  I hope others report the same.  Did you ever consider how other employers will view your multiple year stint at BCC?  Or will you just leave a gap in your resume? {:;

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2006, 05:13:09 pm »
It's the end of the month, and many of us would like to know if the BCC teachers were paid.? Wouldn't it be great if one of their administrators would come on this site and make a statement??

I was also paid in full including all bonuses.

School admins would be foolish to engage in conversation with you. It is clear you hate the school and them from your many posts. So you will just have to be content with destructive soliloquy.

Chao ....
 



« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 05:56:15 pm by bkkman »

Hua-hin-prof

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2006, 07:03:48 pm »

School admins would be foolish to engage in conversation with you. It is clear you hate the school and them from your many posts. So you will just have to be content with destructive soliloquy.


Then maybe they could address the other 20 or so posters on this thread, or the 10,000 TEFLers working in Thailand. {^^

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2006, 09:19:46 am »
I'm glad you were paid in full.? I hope others report the same.? Did you ever consider how other employers will view your multiple year stint at BCC?? Or will you just leave a gap in your resume? {:;

Why??

 It's one of the top two private schools in Thailand.

About twice a week I'm told by a Thai "very good school" after telling them where I work. I imagine potential Thai employers would regard it highly.

On the issue of dismissals, I have only seen one good teacher let go in three years in Prathom, for being quite agressive and rude to Thai staff mostly. The few others let go, by far and away deserved it,

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2006, 10:19:13 am »
Really?? BCC is an academic joke, the "curriculum" is implemented by those with no understanding of pedagogy. They have a system where no student fails so examinations are meaningless. I could go on and I might post up here some of the internal emails that circulate from time to time to clarify things.....

Everyone I know who works in education knows about the nefarious reputation this "school" has for the way it treats its teachers. I personally know of no teacher or educator here who has a single good word to say about BCC. I feel sorry for anyone working there and relief for those that have escaped the clutches of BCC.

I know numerous teachers who were let go just for voicing concerns (some on behalf of all the other teachers I should add), let's hope it doesn't happen to you......

The school does not follow its own contracts
The salary is not that great when you factor in all the extra unpaid Saturday work (8 days in 1 year) that you have to do.
The school has little respect for their foreign staff.

10 baht to get your own salary paid
4,000 baht per month for 5 months deduction because they don't trust you
2,000 baht per month deduction to the agency
1 extra unpaid weekend day per year
No notice for holidays, extra activities
A contract that you might as well burn as soon as you get it (and that's if you get a copy)
You will never ever see your teaching licence

The list could go on and on.....




Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2006, 03:09:54 pm »
If you go through an agency who's fault is that?? The schools???

No fail is a national policy. Not just BCC. I average 2 or at the most three Saturdays a year in primary. Back home could easily be more. I have my teaching licence in my draw right now.

Experiences within the various autonomous sections of the school can be wildy different.

For what it's worth, I have, for the most part been quite happy in the EIP primary/elementary section for over three years. Always had great books, OHP, TV with DVD, refunded for purchases, a foreign assistant, never deducted any money WHATSOEVER, and generous bonuses.

Have a nice day.  :D

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2006, 03:20:18 pm »
If you go through an agency, the school or business should pay for that, after all it is the school who chose to use an agency in the first place.

No money deducted?? So you don't pay the 10 baht to have your salary paid into a bank account? You don't let the school hold 20,000 baht of your salary?

I know two teachers who fought to get their part of the teacher's licence and all they could get was a photocopy.

What about the teacher who was on an overstay and a fine of 20,000 baht because the admin staff cancelled her visa
What about the teachers who were terminated at the end of probation for no valid reason?
What about the qualified teacher who was abandoned after a few years of service and again for no reason?
What about the payrises that were offered and then never appeared and caused at least one teacher to quit?
What about the teacher who left to go back home, found a replacement for his own job and still did not get his 20,000 baht back?
What about the lost passports and lost degree certificates?


Let's look at the illegal salary deduction and what they say about it....

20, 000 Baht Safeguard Deduction
The Boards attorney(ies) indicated that Bangkok Christian College (BCC) and other such schools are exempt from the Thailand Labour Department and applicable laws.  BCC is subject to the law, procedures, and standards of the Ministry of Education (MOE).  The 20,000 Baht deduction is well below the maximum established by MOE for such payroll deductions.  The Board members apparently feel that historically they have had sufficient costs associated with individuals violating their contracts that they must attempt to cover the advertising and recruitment costs that result from those who choose to violate the contract by departing without proper notice.


Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2006, 05:31:59 pm »
BCC is an academic joke, the "curriculum" is implemented by those with no understanding of pedagogy.

>> The currilculum is dictated by MOE. And our textbooks cover it well.

They have a system where no student fails so examinations are meaningless.

>> Yes the no fail is discouraging. But did you know there is grade inflation and no fail at
>> Harvard ? Learning is like life, you get out what you put in. Grades are just for Uni admissions
>> anyway and Universities count grades very little in decisionmaking for this very reason.
>> It is a non issue.

Everyone I know who works in education knows about the nefarious reputation this "school" has for the
way it treats its teachers. I personally know of no teacher or educator here who has a single good
word to say about BCC.

>> You no doubt know people who cannot compete at the highest levels and are bitter about it.
>> BCC standards are high just like they are at any institution ranked #1 in its field.
>> If it is so bad as your friends say, why are people lined up to apply ?
>> This year the new Thai teacher count was about 20. That is a 20/500 = 4% turnover rate.
>> I don't think the evidence supports your words. 


I know numerous teachers who were let go just for voicing concerns (some on behalf of all the other
teachers I should add), let's hope it doesn't happen to you......

>> I know employees in many companies who are let go for rocking the boat. It is called politics and
>> it is not just at BCC or in Thailand. Simple rule. Tick off the boss and your days are numbered.


The school does not follow its own contracts

>> Baloney. There are some 80 Farang teachers. One or two had problems last year. No rational person
>> would conclude that a 2.5% contract dispute rate constitutes habitual fraud which is what your accusation
>> amounts to. Words are cheap. The numbers tell the story.


The salary is not that great when you factor in all the extra unpaid Saturday work (8 days/yr).

>> You obviously did not do well in Math. Even if all 8 days were required (only 3-4 were last year)
>> that is 1.5 weeks in a 52 week year. Again ~ 2%. Considering almost all teachers are paid above
>> 50K, characterizing the pay as "not all that great" is misleading and erroneous.


The school has little respect for their foreign staff.

>> Idle words again.


10 baht to get your own salary paid

>> Big deal. The bank probably imposes this fee but even if they did not, anyone who frets over
>> 25 cents is either a person with self destructive tendencies or a fool.
 

4,000 baht per month for 5 months deduction because they don't trust you

>> No, not "don't trust you". Their real life experience is that many Farang do runners
>> leaving them cold and scrambling to fill the classroom. This is annoying to any
>> businessman/educator and imposing a financial discouragement is good business.


2,000 baht per month deduction to the agency

>> So don't work for an agency for goodness sake !!


No notice for holidays, extra activities

>> Baloney again. On the first day this year we got schedules for the entire year.
>> Will there be changes here and there ? Sure. It's the way life works.
>> Can you map out EVERY day of your life for the next 365 ? I doubt it.


You will never ever see your teaching licence

>> Really ??  I am holding a color copy of mine right now.


Samvines ......
I know you will not believe this but I do sympathize with you and those battered by the rigors of a
difficult teaching marketplace in a foreign land especially when your livlihoods are at stake.
But I think most everyone should get the straight story, not the exaggerations seen here. BCC is
tough. They are proud and view themselves as the best and set high standards. Maybe an individual
here or there has behaved badly on an occasion. But that is just life. Not all of some 500 employees
are going to be angels. We have all worked under a boss or manager who was unfair or worse.
Get used to it.
Life ain't easy and then you .......

Peace.

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #153 on: May 05, 2006, 12:46:30 pm »
The little inefficiencies are really common to all Thai schools, not just BCC- so I agree that BCC's probably not exceptionally bad in terms of the no-fail policy, copier permission, visa processing, etc.  They're probably better than a lot of places in ability to get books and so forth.  BCC is possibly even better than average schools in some of these areas.  However, these are operational plusses and minuses, not the core of working conditions.

It's the illegally long "probations," super-high turnover, punishment of loyalty, foggy contracts, and the backstabbing which make them one of the worst schools for a new hire in Bangkok.  I guess if you do survive the first term or the first year there's a chance you can be one of the few "lucky" ones who stay more than a year.

As for them being a "top" private school- did they try to sell you a bridge, too?  Don't you know by now that every school in Thailand will claim to be best, special, respected, important, prestigious, well-known, and "in the top five" in one way or another?

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2006, 01:00:07 pm »
 ^^^^ He's right, they all claim to be the best.  I guess we can all only draw our own conclusions from our own experiences and maybe those of people we trust.  In my experince, the "best", most well-known and most respected, oldest, most famous Bangkok boys' school I worked at was actually the least enjoyable experience of my career to date.

You must forgive me if I don't hold much regard for Bangkok's most resepcted schools {<>

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2006, 03:29:02 pm »
If you go through an agency, the school or business should pay for that, after all it is the school who chose to use an agency in the first place.

No money deducted?? So you don't pay the 10 baht to have your salary paid into a bank account? You don't let the school hold 20,000 baht of your salary?

I know two teachers who fought to get their part of the teacher's licence and all they could get was a photocopy.

What about the teacher who was on an overstay and a fine of 20,000 baht because the admin staff cancelled her visa
What about the teachers who were terminated at the end of probation for no valid reason?
What about the qualified teacher who was abandoned after a few years of service and again for no reason?
What about the payrises that were offered and then never appeared and caused at least one teacher to quit?
What about the teacher who left to go back home, found a replacement for his own job and still did not get his 20,000 baht back?
What about the lost passports and lost degree certificates?
I started before the 20 000 deductions came in. I don't agree with it, but with what they lay out on a work permit, and given all the runner we've had, I can empathise a bit.

10 baht?? I don't care man, in the West we E.F.T charges, normally more, not to mention a higher general tax rate.

I don't know of anyone in primary let go after probation in three years, except one guy who totally deserved it.

I, and the rest of my office got the raise we were told we would get.

I don't know of the other cases you mention, so I guess I shouldn't comment, (other than guessing they didn't complete their full contract and forfieted their deductions) but as far as losing documents go, I think the school should replace them as they were entrusted with them. Don't let them keep your documents, accompany them to the various government departments, and be aware of visa related responsibilities. They are disorganised in the HR dept, so don't leave room for error.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #156 on: May 08, 2006, 03:37:02 pm »
Quote
but with what they lay out on a work permit

Exactly how much do you imagine a work permit to cost the employer?

Clue: It's nowhere near 20k ;)

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #157 on: May 10, 2006, 01:28:32 pm »
6 000 I believe. ;)

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #158 on: May 10, 2006, 07:53:55 pm »
Half it and you're very close ;)

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #159 on: May 23, 2006, 12:07:15 pm »
 >:( Really???

Where did my last post go mods??? Board problems??
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 12:20:42 pm by MrTam-di-dai-di »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #160 on: May 23, 2006, 05:13:00 pm »
 ^^^^ Please refer to troubleshooting forum {-}

Quote
Board problems??

Yes :(

Offline blackmail

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #161 on: May 24, 2006, 09:38:51 pm »


[/quote]

 It's one of the top two private schools in Thailand.

[/quote]

Could you support your statement with one shred of internationally recognized, test score data?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 09:40:50 pm by blackmail »

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #162 on: June 01, 2006, 09:52:24 am »
The last international comparative educational study of SE Asian English skills I saw the Thais came after Cambodia and Laos, so I think they have stopped being involved.

That kind of data is very hard to find (information is power hence guarded here sometimes).

My opinion was based on last years Bangkok Post front page investigative feature length article on Thai private schools, which ranked BCC and Assumption first and second respectively. That and how all my Thai friends constantly tell me that BCC is the best.

That's as close as you'll get here 'Blackmail'.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #163 on: June 01, 2006, 11:17:09 am »
Anyone who has taught at BCC knows the true value of the "education" on offer there and it's only a matter of time before Thai parents wake up to what a good education should be. This is not a reflection on the few qualified teachers who work there, but a reflection on the awful inept management practices. BCC reaps what it sows, like I said before no one I know has a good word to say about BCC including the members of staff who are still there.

The very cream of Thai society send their kids to international schools and whether you believe this or not, things are changing and standards are coming in that will force teachers to become qualified or get out of the classroom.

A proper "investigative feature length article" would not be allowed in case it reported the truth.


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #164 on: June 01, 2006, 02:48:24 pm »
Yes, many do send their sons to international schools, they are better, you'd expect that at three times the price.

I repeat for the umpteenth time that all seem quite happy in my office, the EIP primary section, where we have good resources, support, and bonuses.

All of our HOD's are well qualified in thier diciplines, and BCC checks all incoming teacher's qualifications. When discovered these people are dismissed. Many, in fact most, other schools ignore fake degrees. To say that the school has few qualified staff is untrue.

I have worked at four schools in Thailand, all of which were much, much worse.

I think you should clarify which department you have worked in Sam, so prospective teachers know which ones have a good reputation, and which to avoid. I know most of the complaints stem from departments that are not the EIP.

I know many teachers in Thailand, and have been teaching in this country for six years, and the general consensus seems to be that the best private school departments to work for in town are Assumption's EP and BCC's EIP.

Have a nice Wai Kru Day every body.  ;D

Offline DW

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2006, 04:32:44 pm »
I repeat for the umpteenth time that all seem quite happy in my office, the EIP primary section, where we have good resources, support, and bonuses.

All of our HOD's are well qualified in thier diciplines, and BCC checks all incoming teacher's qualifications. When discovered these people are dismissed.

Just because a HOD has the bit of paper, it doesnt mean they can do the job!

What you fail to mention is that if the school has a personality issue with the teacher they are also dismissed ie asking too many awkward questions like why have you changed my contract without notice, where is the promised pay rise, where is my work permit, why am I now on overstay, why have you lost my passport etc, making suggestions that arent the BCC way. 

Also if they can easily decide that they want to get rid of teachers just before the holidays or when bonuses are due and oops.  You havent passed probation, probation has been extended, bye bye, you know that 20k leaving tax?  We are keeping that as well.  As for firing teachers immediately who have fake qualifications, I know of two cases in the last three years ( there may be more than I dont know about ) where the school suspected and only fired the teacher at the end of the term, again just at the right time to get them to teach but not have to pay out any bonuses or holiday pay.   Thats really ethical and shows great concern for the kids doesnt it!

BCC sucks big time.

Again the question is

How many teachers from last year where kept in
IEP Prathom?
IEP Mathayom?
EIP Prathom?
EIP MAthayom?
General Program Prathom?
General Program Mathayom?

From stories coming through from friends there, I would guess its about 35% retention overall, if that.

Offline happyteacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2006, 09:28:27 pm »
To answer your question from my department (General Program - Prathom) (Foreign Languages Department.  I'm on my 5th year.  22 teachers in my department.  We lost one teacher in 5 years as he moved back to the USA.  Just as Tam-di-dai-di says I and all of us (in my department) are extremely happy.  Resources are readily and support are always available.  Conferences to attend if we wish.  A happy friendly atmosphere where I enjoy being Monday to Friday.  We cover classes for each other happily when needed as we know the favor is always returned.  Salary is good and I've gotten top consistant salary increases  every year.  18 hours is generally what we teach though the contract says more, so when asked to come in 2 maybe 3 saturdays a year for a couple of hours I/we don't complain.  Our sick time can even be used as personal time.  I love teaching and I do a good job.  As I said in the past forum I love the sound of the kids calling my name when I walk through the school cafeteria.  I know kids from P3 to M3 and make time to stop and chat with them and parents everyday.  I leave and enter the school with a smile. 

I am also very close to the other departments in particular IEP.  Again the program is run by two top teachers one with over 20 years experience in Australia.  The other an experienced Thai teacher who understands farangs as she lived in the U.S. and is well travelled.  I speak with these heads and their teachers everyday.  I consistantly see these teachers entering the school on their days off to make sure things will be right for their teachers.  I see these teachers (IEP) in their classrooms with their students and I can see they are doing a good job.  They also are happy at BCC and have said so to me as I socialize with them as well.

EIP Pratom and this is where Tam-di-dai-di is.  I don't know any unhappy teachers in this area. My best friends work in this area and again I never hear any gripes other than normal everyday working issues.

EIP Mattyom has the most new teachers.  Most moved back to the USA or Canada.  They have got some great new teachers who seem happy.  One in particular who I recommended and was hired with 13 years teaching experience and with 2 masters. 

Mattyom Regular I know of only 2 teachers who left and the others returning.  I honestly don't know much about this area but I know the head and again she is a professional and open minded.

Gosh - I guess there as problems.  What job does not have problems. 

Though we may all be in different departments and in different buildings we are all willing to help and provide resources to each other in a pinch.

You say your friends tell you that there is probably a 35% retention rate at BCC and possibly lower.  I think you need to check your math.  I would say it well over 80%.  I also think you need to listen to your friend/s stories with a grain of salt.  I am inclined to beleive his stories are an urban myth!



Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #167 on: June 02, 2006, 08:36:06 am »


EIP Mattayom has about a 20% retention rate.

What job does not have problems. 


Lots of jobs don't have problems, most jobs I have had in my working life didn't have problems (including the one I have now)

BCC cannot be trusted, they lie in their contracts and change them to suit their whims.
BCC do not act ethically.

End of story


Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #168 on: June 02, 2006, 08:49:41 am »
DW ...
Teacher retention rates ?
Well at the first assemby beginning this year, 20 new Thai teachers were introduced.
And about 20 new Farang teachers were introduced.
So that would be 20/400=5% lost or 95% retention for Thai teachers .... and
20/70=28% lost or 72% retention for Farang teachers. Not bad considering
so many Farangs went back to their countries to continue careers or education.


Samvines ...
You say
"BCC cannot be trusted, they lie in their contracts and change them to suit their whims.
BCC do not act ethically."

This is just false information. Maybe there have been a few misunderstandings.
But to label the whole school as unethical is like calling you a fraud because
you told a lie when you were 22. Simply unfair.

Cheers
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 10:26:45 am by bkkman »

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #169 on: June 02, 2006, 11:09:16 am »
BKKMan just read what people have written and what people have said.

I judge BCC on their behaviour in the last few years and I will also judge them on their behaviour this year.

A few misunderstandings???

There have been so many that it would not be possible to document them all.

Do you want me to post up the contract that was changed after it had been signed?
Do you want me to post up the contract that had parts of it whited out after it had been signed?

Just as a matter of interest I would be curious to know what you did in the west and what your qualifications are as that might explain why you put up with things that people who do have some self respect won't.

Let us hope it is not you in the firing line in future as teacher solidarity does not seem to be something you beleive in.

Cheers

Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #170 on: June 02, 2006, 12:17:19 pm »


Do you want me to post up the contract that was changed after it had been signed?
Do you want me to post up the contract that had parts of it whited out after it had been signed?


This did happen one year, it was one guy I find disorganised at best in the HR Dept.

Many complained, they learned their lesson, and in the last round of contract signing nothing like that happened again.

The school is learning, and improving.

I understand your frustration, but I think we need a great deal of patience when working in a developing country.

The fact that they are willing to change and improve, for me makes it far better than any other school I have worked for.


Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #171 on: June 02, 2006, 12:26:57 pm »
I was not aware that there were so many contractual misunderstandings that they are too numerous to mention. That would imply the number is 12 or more as listing 10 does not seem so much to defend a point on an international forum. I admit I could be ignorant of several incidents before my time at BCC. I do not know.

I do know the "whited out" incident amounted to less than 3% of the teacher's yearly remuneration and that the school paid him his due after he won the argument. Three (3) percent is simply not something to be worrying about if it only happened one time out of 75 teachers over say a 5 yr period. And most likely it was a misunderstanding rather than intentional deception. Your accusations of habitual fraud are serious and one incident does not support such a charge.

Your assertion that my apparent "pro school" point of view is explained by a lack of self respect is erroneous. I am just mature enough to prioritize issues and let the small stuff slide. Life is hard enough without trying to fight EVERY battle I find. One poster here has even complained about a 10THB bank fee. That is ridiculous.

Peace



« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 07:42:52 pm by bkkman »

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #172 on: June 02, 2006, 12:59:50 pm »
There are too so contractual "misunderstandings" to name and as many have already been stated in previous posts, I don't need to rehash them all now.

3% might not sound like a lot but that really is not the point, the fact is it was in the contract, it had been negotiated, and someone there tried to wriggle out of paying it. The fact that the teacher had to fight (or felt he had to fight for it) is enough to show how trustworthy he thought the school is.

A 10 baht charge for getting paid your own money into a bank of the school's choice. Sorry if it's not in the contract then it's not a legal charge. Put it in the contract if you must, but I have never ever worked for anywhere in Thailand or in any other country that charged me a fee to get paid. The amount is irrelevent.


My assertion is relevent if you are so keen to stay in Thailand and you are not in fact a qualified teacher (by qualified I mean qualified to teach in your own country in a school) then we can possibly conclude that your standards might not be as high as those who are qualified.

A teacher is a professional and should be treated like one, perhaps the school should actually plan ahead and not rush things at the last minute trying to find someone, anyone who will be willing to put up with their "misunderstandings".

The last few teachers who complained for your benefit did not get their contracts extended

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #173 on: June 02, 2006, 01:35:19 pm »
The last few teachers who complained for your benefit did not get their contracts extended

Yeah. My friends in finance have a saying .....

"You know how to tell who are the pioneers ?
They are the ones lying face down with arrows in their backs"

But kidding aside, you make part of my point.
As Dr Tam di Dai Di said, the school continues to change to accomodate the Western teachers. That says BCC is working in good faith. I appreciate that and you apparently do not. And this accomodation on BCC's part is much more than can be said for teachers and Teacher Unions in the West with their rigid inflexible demands. That may partly explain your attitude here in Thailand. But this is not the West as you cleary have noticed.

Your insistence that the 10 THB fee is an issue shows that you are looking for perfection and not reality. In my opinion, this is why you are so unhappy and critical of BCC. Perfection does not exist and demanding it is a futile endeavor. Striving for it is fine, but within the bounds of reason and reality. To fret over 10 THB is just silly to the point of being childish.

Lets just agree that I like it at BCC and you do not. No problem. To each his own.

I do hope you can find your way to a place where you can be content.

Peace

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #174 on: June 02, 2006, 01:54:40 pm »
Thank you Bkkman, actually I am very happy in my current position in an organization which treats its staff very well.

Why should 10 THB be an issue? I agree, I can see that there is no reason why the school should not pay it on behalf of their teachers if there is in fact a charge. Again if they are up front about it I would not have a problem. My current place has many many staff and none of them have to pay a fee to get paid their own money.

Teachers unions in the west is a side issue but they are also there to help teachers, guarantee professional development and in fact they strive to maintain standards, this is not the 1970s and the unions are not the rigid immovable beasts they once were.

Offline blackmail

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #175 on: June 02, 2006, 02:53:41 pm »
Dear teachers,
       Please go to Sima Commercial Bank at Suriwong Branch for opening your bank account.  School can transfer
you salary to your bank account.  Please follow my information.......
1.  Bring your original passport with one copy altogether.
2.  200 Baht if you want to use ATM card for withdraw money.
3.  200 Baht for opening the bank account
4.  After that You will receive a book bank.  Go back to school and make a copy of the first page and send it
to the cashier room on the second floor of Steelncheat BLd.

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #176 on: June 02, 2006, 04:57:35 pm »
The 3% salary white out issue is not a misunderstanding. After the entire 9 months of fighting to get it. The information was actually in interview records when he was interviewed so no misunderstand it was written in Thai. 

Bkkman I hope you enjoy your new slightly better contract (assuming they honour it)? The Teacher that fought for those changes that you enjoy was non-renewed.  A highly experienced and qualified teacher.  That helped shape the top M grades to what they are now.  He did alot for you and your collegues, but I know you won't lose sleep over it. 

Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #177 on: June 02, 2006, 05:38:25 pm »
10 baht may not be a big deal, but that 10 baht is one of the reasons the school made it to the Hall of Shame, as much I would like to not see it there. So if 10 baht is not a big deal, why does the school charge it in the first place?



Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #178 on: June 02, 2006, 07:16:51 pm »
It could be my imagination, but I think right before the board hiccuped and destroyed his post, TDD's last post was something about how it was getting hard for BCC to attract and keep qualified staff considering the rise in the number of contact hours, among one or two other things?  So is there a retention/staffing problem or not?  From what most of my contacts from there have said, there most certainly is one.

Offline DW

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #179 on: June 03, 2006, 07:27:09 pm »
 

I am also very close to the other departments in particular IEP.  Again the program is run by two top teachers one with over 20 years experience in Australia.  The other an experienced Thai teacher who understands farangs as she lived in the U.S. and is well travelled.  I speak with these heads and their teachers everyday.  I consistantly see these teachers entering the school on their days off to make sure things will be right for their teachers.  I see these teachers (IEP) in their classrooms with their students and I can see they are doing a good job.  They also are happy at BCC and have said so to me as I socialize with them as well.

EIP Mattyom has the most new teachers.  Most moved back to the USA or Canada.  They have got some great new teachers who seem happy.  One in particular who I recommended and was hired with 13 years teaching experience and with 2 masters. 

You say your friends tell you that there is probably a 35% retention rate at BCC and possibly lower.  I think you need to check your math.  I would say it well over 80%.  I also think you need to listen to your friend/s stories with a grain of salt.  I am inclined to beleive his stories are an urban myth!

EIP Mattyom teachers moved solely because they were not being offered new contracts!  ALL of them were highly qualified yet because they asked the awkward questions and asked that they be given what they were promised, they essential got fired.

The 10B to get your own pay may be a small thing but it is indicative of the bigger picture.  As they say, look after the pennies and the dollars will look after themselves.

The two in question in IEP you mention do indeed have lots of experience but their man management and comunication skills and at times honesty are badly lacking.  You are ok if they like you but god help you ( not much chance of that in a thai christian school ! ) if they dont.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2006, 07:35:59 am »

EIP Mattyom teachers moved solely because they were not being offered new contracts!  ALL of them were highly qualified yet because they asked the awkward questions and asked that they be given what they were promised, they essential got fired.

This is not only an untruth .... it is an outright LIE and you know it !!
I believe you were in EIP Mathayom last year so you have no excuse. Thus your words amount to perjury.
Of the 12 EIP Mathayom teachers, only you and one (possibly two) other teachers were not offered renewals.
Some 5-6 chose to return to the West to continue education, traveling ambitions or careers.
Five others returned and happily are teaching at BCC now.

This is a good example of how unreliable most of the criticisms of BCC are. Those who failed to pass probation or could not deal with cultural differences between Western and Thai teaching are on a vendetta to hurt the school.
All I have to say to that is ......... Chinese proverb
"He who is intent upon revenge first must dig two graves"

May you all find peace and find it soon ........ sincerely !

Good day now ..

Offline happyteacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2006, 10:21:09 am »
Yes DW, I now see your are on a mission to destroy the reputation of the school.  You have never even worked with the two above teachers in IEP.  Having worked with one for 5 years and the other for 4,  I can honestly say their management and communication schools are excellent.  As for their honesty this is not even in question.  Neither have ever been a complaint with the teachers working in this program.  I also see that it is now Thai Christian Schools that you do not like.  It's funny that you are working for one now and back in April I received a phone call from a friend at another Christian school (a sister school of BCC asking if I knew you, as you had just interviewed.

Now as far as your honesty and integrity....I hear through the grapevine that you are planning on breaking your contract at your present school (Also a well known Christian school) to go to another school at the end of August.  Hmmmm.  Not true?..let's see where you end up and get back to us.  I will be checking with your new boss in August/September as he a close friend.  Yes you are full of honesty and integrity.

As Bkkman says, you are just out to destroy BCC.  This clearly shows when you outright lie about nobody in EIP Mattayom being offered to come back.  It's funny how some of these teachers who were not invited back as you say, are seen everyday in the school canteen.  As for the others who did leave I talk to them online quite reqularly and they doing very well back in Canada and California.  You know who I'm talking about.

Enjoy your week!

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2006, 01:02:30 pm »
The so called teachers that moved as they wasn't offered a new contract is true but only the half truth.  All the teachers that told the school with more than enough notice they wasn't coming back got a non-resign letter (save face crap).  What was the real reasons for some teachers going back to the west.

Three I remember saying they was sick of BCC and their practises and how each year they treat the staff with less respect.  So planned things for the ending of the year.   They also said that BCC had ruined made them dislike Thailand and idea of working here so left.  Another actually never showed up the next year cause of the way all the teachers were treated at the end of the year.

IEP and EIP are separate in the school under different management.  I met many IEP teachers who always had something to complain about management or lack of it. Maybe they just never complained in the office.

So 5 out of 14 was left and one didn't show so that 4 out of 14 thats about 28% retension.

Also The school advertised and hired some new teachers for positions that they hadn't told the teachers that wanted to stay were  already replaced. 

The amount of pay for summer camp was originally 3800 baht, then lowered that day to 3300. After the summer camp the teachers got much less as they had to pay for their rooms.  The students was all paying full price for each room and sharing so each  one student actually paid for the room the rest of the money from the 3 other students was extra. yes there are the transport cost and food but that is not going to cost 3 times more than a room.  Its crap like that which makes teachers dispise and wish to leave the school.   

Hopefully soon parents will realise it is not unreliable farang coming and going everytime that makes their student have an incosistance level of education.  Some know but as the school told one parent that complained "if you don't like it take your kid out we have many that can replace them".

Offline blackmail

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2006, 05:32:15 pm »
I found the student's behavior to be disgraceful.  This is partly do to the foreign teachers being afraid to keep them in line.  The things that were allowed to happen, right in front of the teachers, were sickening.  I was informed that the students run wild in the corridors, because there is no playground.  So therefore, the whole school is a playground.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 10:17:00 pm by blackmail »

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2006, 06:26:34 pm »
Discipline is a major problem and the Native teachers had tried various ways.

A detention book, letter of admission that was sent to parents. Students don't turn up or get drivers/maids or fake their parents signiture.

However after a particular incident (total distruction of a classroom furniture) we decided it would be better to not allow the students in their classrooms at lunch time and lock them out of the rooms.    The stuents ran to the thai head who promptly undermined our authority and unlocked all the doors. Some used credit cards to open the doors to get back in.

A student threw a bucket of water over a cleaner with the excuse "That she is only the cleaner"  Nothing done about his behaviour.

One year a student branded another students arm with a very hot piece of metal.  The student injured went to hospital for treatment. The student who commited the act got given a pathetic punishment for which they never even enforced so he got away with it. 
This was not a case of argument turned bad, this was just one student not having  any regard for anyone else. The victim will have a perminant scar on his arm.

The list goes on:
Students sleeping in class (on the floor using coats as pillows),
destroying furniture including pulling the entire lighting system above the chalk board down.

How are we teachers meant to have control over the students if they know they can do anything (and I mean anything) and get away with it.

However the Thai Teachers use the cane to punish the students which has turned in to an entertainment event with students laughing at each other getting caned.  Some teachers get sick twisted possibly sexual excitment of mass beating the kids.  Week lasting marks on your legs for socks too short, shaved initials in back of head each month for hair too long (with caning every day you not get it cut). Forgotten books = mass spanking.

For a school that charges 150,000 baht per year (not including extra charges throughout the year) the classrooms in a building only 3 years old, look like they should be as the school building name suggests 150 years old. 

All the complaints by teachers to try to do something is ignored and as we have seen marks you for termination.  It is pathetic.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 06:28:49 pm by Due Diligence »

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #185 on: June 04, 2006, 09:29:21 pm »
Quote
destroying furniture including pulling the entire lighting system above the chalk board down

This made me laugh - I thought this was Thailand's top school!  They have chalkboards? :D :D  I work in a government school and we have the interactive whiteboards with projectors set up in nearly every classroom {-}

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #186 on: June 05, 2006, 09:19:09 am »
Um, I think "perjury" is a legal distinction, Bkkman.  Around us "normal" people, we call it "lying."

And happyteacher's vindictive threats only seem to back up what the OP said about the few long term teachers there being part of the problem.

In my view, both of you are excellent examples of why it's best to avoid BCC.

Offline happyteacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #187 on: June 05, 2006, 09:38:22 am »
Ok - so he (DW) is lying.  Glad you settled that

Vindictive threats?  I just reread my post and I don't see any threats.  I'm just showing that he is not full of "honesty and integrity" as he pretends to be.  His comments about Christian schools are that they are to be avoided as they are not honest - yet he is working for one now.  He plans on breaking the contract and moving without telling them.  The saying "Pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind.

Remember there are two sides to every story.  Yes - the urban myths are more exciting to believe.  But when teachers who work here come on to defend what is being said we are "part of the problem", as nukethemslowly says.

Anyway I'm a happy teacher at BCC and know many more who are in "the same boat" as I!






Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #188 on: June 05, 2006, 11:01:58 am »
These are not myths, we have been dealing with cold facts.

I would take what some of the "teachers" at BCC say with a pinch of salt.

Mediocrity always attracts the mediocre and I am sorry to say BCC is a place where you can rise to the level of your own incompetence and where people who are decent and caring and who do voice their ideas are quickly shown the door.

I should have known when I was interviewed there and the person interviewing me knew the square root of zero about the subject they were teaching and knew slightly less than that about teaching methodology that it was a place best avoided.

My advice to all who want to progress is avoid this place (I can't bring myself to call it a school)


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #189 on: June 05, 2006, 11:50:44 am »
 ^^^^Saying teachers that work there now only aspire to 'mediocrity' is offensive.

To call our real experiences for YEARS of service a lie (pinch of salt???) is offensive. Both happy teacher and I have happily completed multiple contracts there, and therefore are far more qualified to discuss this school than those who completed half, or at most one contract.

I am far from being the 'company man', if you've read other threads you'll know this. I would refuse any promotion because I like teaching homerooms. I am posting what I do to relate my experiences to other teachers, nothing more.

To insinuate we do not care or voice our ideas, otherwise we'd have been 'shown the door', is offensive. We have on many occasions, and some changes have been forthcoming. Critque itself is a negative process unless you give possible solutions to problems you raise. And we have stuck around to see these changes through for the benefit of future teachers and our students. But remember Rome wasn't built in a day. These things are an incremental process.

All teachers have at least one real degree, and many have more. Most other schools accept teachers with fake degrees, but not BCC. To hint at us being incompetent and unqualified to teach anything simply means SV, that I will have a low opinion of your future posts.

I assume you must have a B Ed with your exacting expectations of the school, and swathe of pedagogical methadologies. Why aren't you at an international school then?? Why expect western standards from a school that doesn't expect the world of you??

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #190 on: June 05, 2006, 12:20:47 pm »
This thread has become funnier than watching an Abbott and Costello film.

First the school and its administrators are no good.
Then the students are terrible monsters. All of them, of course.
Now the teachers are mediocre.

55555555555

No doubt we will soon get warnings about the food, parking lot, traffic and school uniforms.

This black and white view of BCC as all bad by the resident malcontents and probation dropouts should tell the newcomers to this thread just how unobjective and unreliable these criticisms are. They are born of hatred and revenge, not unbiased facts within a rational context of expectation here in Thailand.

Let the reader beware !!!

Cheers ...

Offline Scott

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #191 on: June 05, 2006, 12:30:35 pm »
This is slightly off topic, but I have tutored a number of students from BCC (I've never worked there and I don't know any teachers from there).  Whatever the problems are, the overall English of the students I've tutored is very good.  But then for a 150,000 Baht, it should be!

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #192 on: June 05, 2006, 02:15:41 pm »
Quote
I assume you must have a B Ed with your exacting expectations of the school, and swathe of pedagogical methadologies. Why aren't you at an international school then?? Why expect western standards from a school that doesn't expect the world of you??

Yes I am well aware of "pedagogical methadologies" (sic), and yes I am qualified to teach anywhere in the world including my own country but that's a whole different can of worms to open here but which we can explore if you really want to. I am pretty sure however that you would not be qualified to teach at home and possibly only teach in Thailand because there is nothing else you can do there. I still have a good laugh when I think about the guy I met from BCC who thought he was an educational expert just because he knew who Piaget was and he thought he was so much better than everyone else there (unfortunately he did not know anything else about educational psychology) and just came across as a bit of a prat.

I don't  expect western standards but I do expect some standards; from the school, the students, and from the other teachers; if you don't expect some standards then you are just part of the problem. I'm sure that the teachers who were removed or were not extended due to the fact that they fought for your rights would like to shake your hand.


Offline MrTam-di-dai-di

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #193 on: June 05, 2006, 03:14:46 pm »
I'm sure that the teachers who were removed or were not extended due to the fact that they fought for your rights would like to shake your hand.

They ought to. I spent my own time canvassing teacher's opinions, going to meetings, and drafting reports and proposals that included potential solutions to the problems we have at school. (as well as going over it with the HR Dept) Some of which were successful. Not all but some (like raising the airfare bonus).

This took quite some time, but I didn't mind as it was done to help all concerned with the school. Why? Because western values like constructive criticism will only take root if they can see the positives in it, and to be honest, if it's only complaining it helps no one, and is a world away from 'fighting for our rights'.

The only teachers that were removed/not renewed from EIP primary deserved it. I saw no professional martyrs there last year. Remember the EIP high school is independent of the primary section, so writing off the whole school is short sighted.

As for what I did back in the West, I taught tutorials for 3 years at university as a masters thesis student, and worked for years as a research assistant at RMIT. Nothing alse I could do eh?? How arrogant. Lets not forget we have all seen some people who have the 'gift' and teacher better than those who may well be qualified. Qualifications are better as a general rule, but not always.

I think it's you that's coming across as a bit of a prat Sam, as you are writing off experienced peoples opinions, and insult them as useless in their home countries.

I'll repeat my question, if you are a qualified teacher, why weren't you teaching at an international school???

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #194 on: June 05, 2006, 08:06:38 pm »
This thread is locked.

Why? It seems to be turning into a very wasteful thread. BCC is in the Hall of Shame for documented wrong doings with now former teachers AND for a few insane contract clauses. It is easy to say how great your school is in the beginning of the year, but many of the problems that people have reported have occurred later in the year. For this reason I am locking this thread. I would hate to have anyone have to come back in 6 months to retract their statements.

I personally would like to see BCC out of the Hall of Shame. For any BCC management reading this forum, if BCC could do three things, I would pull it out of the Hall of Shame.

1) Drop the miserly 10 baht fee to collect your salary. How much do you pay your teachers? can't you afford the 10 baht extra? The 10 baht may be very little to the school, but to a teacher it is a bottle of coke. Dropping the 10 baht fee is the Christian thing to do.

2) Drop the 20,000 baht retainer fee. If you trust the teachers you hire enough to put them in a class with young children, you should trust them enough to finish their contract or at least give proper notice. If I remember my bible study well enough, I recall a part where Christians are commanded to return pledges before the sun goes down. If a man pledges his coat for a loan, return the coat before the sun goes down. I think 20,000 baht qualifies as a coat. BCC is a Christian school and it falls under the Law of God.

3) Apologize to the teachers who feel wronged. If you apologize, you make the first step to redemption.

Do all three and I will not only remove BCC from the Hall of Shame, but I will also prominently feature it on the front page as a school to work for. As a redeemed school.

Admin Mod: This thread is reopened, but all "nonsense" posts or posts that do not bring up new issues will be sent to the thread in Sour Gripes.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 05:32:08 pm by admin »

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #195 on: July 18, 2006, 01:18:11 pm »
Several posts with barely substantiated rumors have been split off and moved to the Thailand Talk room. When the actual person is ready to come on here and post his story, he may post it on this thread. For everyone else, there are no less than 3 other threads where you post about BCC. Let's try to keep this one for the hard hitting and factual posts.

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #196 on: July 21, 2006, 09:17:33 pm »
I like rumors as much as the next guy, but put them in their proper place and this thread ain't it.

Offline blackmail

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2006, 07:53:09 pm »
In my nearly thirty years in the workforce, this is the most hideous place that I have been employed.  Thailand is one of the most wonderful places on Earth; BCC is Hell. {:;

Offline upright man

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2006, 10:59:51 pm »
Sorry guys if I've missed some points - only just picked up this thread.  (14 pages - jeez!). Something caught my eye, however.
Sir (Mr Tam, I think), with regard to your No 8 response; I have worked at a couple of fairly decent International Schools and have never encountered a bilingual program in either of them. Parents are paying extra for the English only curriculum. As an assessor for Cambridge IGCSE i've visited other schools and never seen a bilingual program in use. At some "international" schools, though, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.
As for the statement you made about BCC and the other place being No1 and 2. Does this information come from gov't inspectors? I'd be interested to know if these facts and figures are available to joe public. It may help us when we're trying to find a new job.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2006, 01:35:25 pm »
I always thought that BCC is a good case study for bad management practices; in particular a great example of how theory x management style is still alive and kicking.

•   issues threats to make people follow instructions
•   demands, never asks
•   does not participate
•   does not team-build
•   unconcerned about staff welfare, or morale
•   proud, sometimes to the point of self-destruction
•   one-way communicator
•   poor listener
•   fundamentally insecure and possibly neurotic
•   anti-social
•   vengeful and recriminatory
•   does not thank or praise
•   withholds rewards, and suppresses pay and remunerations levels
•   scrutinises expenditure to the point of false economy
•   seeks culprits for failures or shortfalls
•   does not invite or welcome suggestions
•   takes criticism badly and likely to retaliate if from below or peer group
•   poor at proper delegating - but believes they delegate well
•   thinks giving orders is delegating
•   holds on to responsibility but shifts accountability to subordinates
•   relatively unconcerned with investing in anything to gain future improvements
•   unhappy

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #200 on: August 10, 2006, 02:04:11 pm »
Quote from: upright man
As for the statement you made about BCC and the other place being No1 and 2. Does this information come from gov't inspectors?

I think we've pretty firmly established that such standings only reflect the opinion of the director's of the schools concerned.  Bangkok Christian College is certainly not renowned for high educational standards (not amongst parents of its students in any case - I know a couple), it is known as a "name that looks good on university and job applications" though.  Phrases like "best school in Bangkok" are bandied around by many schools - they are certainly not the product of any official (or unofficial) regulatory bodies' findings!

Offline think4yourself

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #201 on: August 15, 2006, 10:40:39 am »
 ^^^^

Very true.  Most, if not all, of the big schools here that have been around for a time try to tout themselves as being one of the best or very famous.  But, what is more often the case of well established schools that supposedly have such good reputations is they are crap because they rely on their reputations, rather than providing good quality education, to lure parents in.    :D

Offline Lee

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #202 on: August 18, 2006, 12:42:33 pm »
OH this is really nice.  BCC can hire a suspected pedophile and child murderer, John Mark Karr, but they feel that hiring me without a teaching license being illegally held my a corrupt employer would damage the reputation of their school.


http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060818/D8JIKTNG0.html

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #203 on: September 01, 2006, 06:14:27 am »
A bunch of posts were split off to a thread in Sour Gripes.

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #204 on: September 19, 2006, 04:39:42 pm »
I see that BCC want a Grade 1 homeroom teacher, 3 English teachers and 2 Maths teachers. 
Any particular reason for the vacancies? Runners, Got screwed, Arrested .........

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #205 on: September 20, 2006, 07:27:03 pm »
The fun just goes on and on there.  A friend of a reliable friend of mine sez that the coup today didn't matter- the school was already closed, because one of the students died of some kind of livestock disease they believe was picked up on the school grounds.  They're decontaminating the whole place.

Offline Mr X

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #206 on: September 21, 2006, 05:48:45 am »
I think it is revolting to gloat over the death of a child. 

Signed,

Disgusted

Pibthong

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #207 on: September 21, 2006, 03:06:07 pm »
   I don't think anyone is joking or laughing over the death of a child if, in fact, that's what has occurred.

   Do we know whether the report is fact or rumor based on hearsay which might be based on...etc?

   Deaths at schools do ocurr. I myself know of a school where a Prathom girl died of electrocution plugging in a casette player. Students dying at school does happen and is a horrendous matter (and expensive to the school). Has anyone in fact died at BCC??? Is the place being decontaminated?
 
   What?
   
   (Regardless, based on a long history of what we know of BCC, any cleanup at BCC might well begin with the BCC Board.)
   
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 03:33:20 pm by Pibthong »

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #208 on: September 21, 2006, 05:15:24 pm »
Yes it is true. BCC was closed after a 6 year old student died of Hoof and Mouth Disease.

Offline Mr X

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #209 on: September 21, 2006, 06:33:32 pm »
Perhaps, I can elucidate the matter.

The correct affliction is Hand and Mouth Disease: a common young childhood virus.  It is also known as Hand, Foot and Mouth Disease.  While it can be highly contagious, it is rarely fatal.  How often do you see the dirty hands on (or in) the students' noses in class?  Wash the hands and use the soap, please! Decontamination is simply wiping surfaces with diluted bleach. 
 
It is not Hoof and Mouth Disease: a less common livestock virus.  In the Uk it is called Foot and Mouth Disease.   People can spread it, but it doesn't make people ill.

With all these similar names, things get confusing.

Take a look at The Nation for September 20th:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/page.news.php?clid=3&id=30014151

Just the facts, Mam.

Your Humble Servant,

Mr. X , BSN, RN

admin

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #210 on: September 21, 2006, 08:24:53 pm »
Thanks for the facts, Mr. X.


Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #211 on: October 02, 2006, 11:48:29 am »
Good to see that BCC can still retain their staff........

Wonder if JJ was one of the teachers culled this time?



Number 1:
Bangkok Christian College’s rapidly expanding Intensive English Program is now seeking a Primary School Teacher and an IT Co-ordinator to start work on the first day of Semester Two (Monday 30th October 2006).


School/Company Type: private

Province: Bangkok

Pay Rate: At least 40,000 Baht/month


Number 2:
Grade 3/4 Primary
Bangkok Christian College - 28th Sep 2006

Conversation and Listening


School/Company Type: private

Province: Bangkok

Pay Rate: At least 40,000 Baht/month


Number 3:
Math/ Sci / Eng teachers
Bangkok Christian College - 28th Sep 2006

Bangkok Christian College - We are looking for a highly-professional, diligent and dedicated teacher, who is amiable and enjoys working in a qualified team. The applicant should have experience teaching science (Biology and Chemistry) or mathematics....


School/Company Type: private

Province: Bangkok

Pay Rate: At least 40,000 Baht/month


Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #212 on: October 02, 2006, 05:52:33 pm »
Good to see that BCC can still retain their staff........

Wonder if JJ was one of the teachers culled this time?

Yes, JJ has been kinda quiet the last week or so...

Offline Due Diligence

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #213 on: October 02, 2006, 08:10:33 pm »
Well looks like they got rid of a great team of teachers last year and now they are reaping their rewards

1. Criminals
2. Disease
3. large turn over.

Whats next??   Famine, Flooding, Demonic possesion.


Uncle Che

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #214 on: October 02, 2006, 08:22:12 pm »
Well, it is hardly massive staff turnover....yet. With all the hiring they did this year, a 10 to 15% turnover rate is about average in Thailand from my experience.

One thing I note from their ads is a starting wage of 40,000 baht per month, isn't that a drop down, didn't it use to be 45,000 baht per month?

Another tidbit, someone decided to change the wikipedia entry and remove references to its employment practices as detailed on TeflWatch. Never mind, someone went back and restored the previous piece and in fact added an external link to their Hall of Shame listings.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #215 on: October 03, 2006, 08:26:50 am »
Quote
someone decided to change the wikipedia entry and remove references to its employment practices as detailed on TeflWatch. Never mind, someone went back and restored the previous piece and in fact added an external link to their Hall of Shame listings.

Hahaha!

Pibthong

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2006, 08:33:23 pm »
   We note that the demons again were defeated at BCC!!! Good work to the admin, a tuff guy for owners of schools to outsmart---so far, in fact, impossible! Here, they can't win for losing...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 08:39:27 pm by Pibthong »

Pibthong

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #217 on: December 12, 2006, 07:48:24 pm »
   As I note at the Sarasas thread, the BCC and Sarasas threads have almost 20,000 hits between them. BCC is the most read thread at TeflWatch with Sarasas consistently being the 2nd most read. So congrats to both schools for the dubious distinction.

   And positive congrats to Global Mod "hero" for initiating this BCC thread, the most read thread at TeflWatch.


Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #218 on: December 12, 2006, 10:07:42 pm »
They have both been popular/entertaining/interesting threads.  Both have gone cold recently.  We can only guess at the reasons behind this I suppose.

:)

Offline NukeThemSlowly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #219 on: December 13, 2006, 10:24:59 am »
Ah, we're just waiting for the next atrocity, plague, arrest, mass firing, etc.  There'll be something along presently; there always is.

Pibthong

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #220 on: December 13, 2006, 07:11:08 pm »
NukeThemSlowly,

   Ain't it the truth?!

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #221 on: December 14, 2006, 08:32:05 am »
I split and moved a few posts here guys - let's keep on topic.

http://www.teflwatch.org/forum/index.php/topic,279.msg5640.html#msg5640

Offline JJ

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #222 on: December 14, 2006, 11:37:08 am »
Yes, it's been quiet lately as we are trying to cover as much material as possible before our Christmas vacation.
The schoolboard has made almost everything voluntary this year for the foreign teachers, such as our BCC fair, the Alumni day, the Christmas party and so on, and left it up to the teachers to decide if they want to support the school, and I'm happy to say that there has been a near 100% turnout from our teachers.
After next week, we will be enjoying our Christmas bonuses and our vacation that the schoolboard has given us.
I know some of you hate the fact that there are some teachers who enjoy working here, but so be it.  Don't worry, with the great number of foreign teachers we have at this school, I'm sure it won't be long until someone does something for everyone to yak about.  In the meantime, I WILL report on the good things as well. 
No, it's not all peaches and cream, it's a lot of hard work too, and the normal everyday frustrations, but nothing like I've been told it was in the past................ttfn


Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #223 on: February 13, 2007, 03:42:54 pm »
I have been working at BCC since May of 2006. I work in Mathayom and enjoy my job. I work in one of the three departments for foreign teachers. (Foreign Languages, IEP and EIP)  There have been a number of previous posts here that have put BCC in the Hall of Shame. I am a little perplexed as to the criteria, and hearsay, used to condemn schools. I would think telling teachers to get fake degrees and then letting them go to prison for it, as happened at another “reputable” organization, is certainly more severe than the hiccups we’ve faced at BCC.  Yes, we’ve had a few criminals and crackpots pass through, but the majority of us are well-qualified, dedicated teachers who are trying to make the best of an unusual and confusing academic standard. It is important to keep in mind that there are 3 departments in both Prathom and Mathayom. (So there are six all together.) Not all of us experience the same things.

In my department, our credentials were put under severe scrutiny.  It may have been a change in the system that occurred after the postings from last spring, who knows. I had to provide notarized and sealed letters from my university registrar offices because the name on my passport includes my full middle name and my diplomas only list an initial. The personnel office said the Ministry of Education would want proof that the documents matched the passport. So as far as my department is concerned I feel the screening is rather thorough, even if it is flawed, and it seems even tougher now.

We had a teacher who could never produce a diploma, the Xerox copy presented to the personnel office was a fake and an official transcript from the university was never received. For the sake of the students, he stayed out the end of the semester and was told he could return when he could produce a valid degree. He hasn’t contacted the department since then. A few teachers have also cut and run because they decided teaching wasn’t for them.  Only one person was let go and it was completely justified.

As to the discussion of the deposit requirement in previous postings, I had no problem with the deposit that was required of us during probation. If you give proper notice it is returned to you, with interest. Leaving without giving notice means you forfeit the deposit because it is used to pay the teachers, who cover those hours, overtime. It seems fair to me. The deposit is there to establish who is committed to the contract or who isn’t.

The only staff members that really kvetched about the deposit are what I consider “Tourist Teachers”, professional travelers who use teaching as a means of supporting their travels.  I am not sure their focus is always on the students, or children they are teaching. They stay a semester and leave again. (Wanderlust calls...) As far as I am concerned, these are the people who do the most school bashing on the internet. The irony is the people who are committed to their jobs or schools are treated, or often treated, like incompetent degenerates whose opinion is not worth listening to.
Look let’s be serious! There is no such thing as a perfect, stress-free teaching job or environment. At least in Thailand I am not worried about my students packing a gun!

It is important to remember that there is a distinct difference between the various departments here at BCC. Our department is under new management this year. Our director has shown a fierce determination to revamp the curriculum and meet all of the Ministry of Education requirements.  It hasn’t been without conflict and harsh words, but there has been a great deal of respect shown all around. Hard work was required from all of us and I believe the extra effort was worth it.  I think the students have more faith in the department, and their teachers, and therefore they seem willing to at least try. (It's an improvement, believe me.)
At the end of the year, teachers leave for a number of reasons, not necessarily because they were abused or unappreciated. We are losing a few this year to higher education and retirement. Sometimes it has been very tough and exhausting, but is has also been very rewarding. I’ve chosen to stay another year.

Offline DW

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #224 on: February 22, 2007, 01:13:03 am »
As to the discussion of the deposit requirement in previous postings, I had no problem with the deposit that was required of us during probation. If you give proper notice it is returned to you, with interest. Leaving without giving notice means you forfeit the deposit because it is used to pay the teachers, who cover those hours, overtime. It seems fair to me. The deposit is there to establish who is committed to the contract or who isn’t.


Well thats a bit of a stretch!  Overtime??!! 

I have never heard of anyone being paid overtime for covering during normal school hours.  The contract said you would teach up to 24 hours.  Most were scheduled for 20, so guess what.  The first four hours covering are UNPAID!  And they made damm sure no one did over that.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #225 on: February 22, 2007, 12:36:58 pm »
It is possible to fail students this year.  Students now get the grade they earned.  A teacher needs to have documented evidence to show why a student fails in order for the grade to be approved, but that is no different than in schools back home.  A teacher who wishes to fail a student must provide the opportunity for the student to make up missed work, do a project for extra credit, and possibly retake an exam, but if after those measures are taken and the student still deserves to fail then they get a zero on their transcript.  I personally had 2 students in this position during first term.  The school is making efforts to improve conditions for teachers while at the same time improving the quality of education for the students.

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #226 on: February 22, 2007, 02:31:13 pm »
Does a lick of paint turn and old banger into a classic?

I think the operative word here is your mention of "previous years."

If it took years without change to get them into the HOS then surely 1 year of change shoulf not qualify for removal! at least two or three consecutive years of being upstanding should be required. I would agree that the HOS entry should be ameded to show that improvements have been made but ...

just my 25 setangs worth
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 02:35:19 pm by Mods-Rockers »

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #227 on: February 22, 2007, 02:50:07 pm »
It they want out of the HOS, they can stop deducting money from salaries which is illegal. They can stop charging money for paying salaries into a bank of their own choosing, oh and they can make the probationary period the three months it should be and not the 120 days they insist on which is almost the whole of the first semester.

I'm not a tourist teacher and I certainly would not want anyone keeping the money I have earned back just to try and keep me honest, it is totally counter productive and means you don't trust your staff. I bet the Thai teachers don't have to pay a retention penalty!

Quote
Look let’s be serious! There is no such thing as a perfect, stress-free teaching job or environment.

Of course there are, but if you have low expectations then you are pleased very easily. If you have high expectations, it takes a lot more to please you!

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #228 on: February 22, 2007, 07:50:23 pm »
1) Bank Fee:  10 bt per month = 120 bt per year.  That's about the price of a beer.  This year BCC gave me a sleeping bag for my birthday, 3 shirts for various events, and a half baht of gold at christmas.

2) Probation Time: 3 months, 4 months, big deal.  The contract is clear at the time of signing.  Nobody forces any teacher to sign their name and accept the contract.

3) Deposit of 20,000 bt:  This one is a bit more serious as it does offend the sensibilities. Here again though, each employee is made aware of this several times before they sign the contract.  The money is returned, with interest, when you leave the school or after 2 years of service, whichever comes first.

I hope to be able to report several changes that significantly improve the lot for teachers in the near future.  Whether the school comes out of the HOS is up to the admin and mods.  They can reviiew the situation and they'll make whatever decision they feel is appropriate.  I can say that the administration and teachers have together worked very hard this year to make BCC a better place for all.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 08:11:24 pm by los_teacher »

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #229 on: February 22, 2007, 08:56:42 pm »
1) Bank Fee:  10 bt per month = 120 bt per year.  That's about the price of a beer.  This year BCC gave me a sleeping bag for my birthday, 3 shirts for various events, and a half baht of gold at christmas.
well out here in the sticks it more like 4 beers but what the fudge! Yes I suppose that being given lots of shiny things will make you overlook the gloomier side of things!


2) Probation Time: 3 months, 4 months, big deal.  The contract is clear at the time of signing.  Nobody forces any teacher to sign their name and accept the contract.
Actually, yes it is a big deal! There is a strange thing called the law, a sub section of this is the employment law! And that states quite clearly what constitutes a probation period! But that really does not apply here does it? After all BCC stated last year that it was above the law as I remember!


3) Deposit of 20,000 bt:  This one is a bit more serious as it does offend the sensibilities. Here again though, each employee is made aware of this several times before they sign the contract.  The money is returned, with interest, when you leave the school or after 2 years of service, whichever comes first.
Too right it offends! The money is not returned however if for some valid reason you have to leave the contract early! It is not returned if you annoy the wrong member of staff and are terminated just for doing something deemed to be against the best interests of BCC, its not returned for far more reasons that it is returned. But hey if you sign the contract then you must have agreed to all these reasons even if they were not explicitly stated!


I hope to be able to report several changes that significantly improve the lot for teachers in the near future.  Whether the school comes out of the HOS is up to the admin and mods.  They can reviiew the situation and they'll make whatever decision they feel is appropriate.  I can say that the administration and teachers have together worked very hard this year to make BCC a better place for all.
More hopes about more changes! Please understand that I do hope BCC can change its spots! But as I told you before I will not be holding my breath!

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #230 on: February 22, 2007, 09:12:49 pm »
LOL - go ahead, breathe normally then.

I'm not going to be an apologist for things that may have been said or done in the past as I have only worked here for one year.  I honestly believe, however, that the administration has bent over backwards this year to rectify most things that gave people cause for complaint.  Perhaps it's the dawn of a new era for BCC.

Mods-Rockers

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #231 on: February 22, 2007, 09:33:49 pm »
Perhaps it is a new dawn! lets hope not a false dawn!

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #232 on: February 22, 2007, 09:46:31 pm »






3) Deposit of 20,000 bt:  This one is a bit more serious as it does offend the sensibilities. Here again though, each employee is made aware of this several times before they sign the contract.  The money is returned, with interest, when you leave the school or after 2 years of service, whichever comes first.




The money is returned yes, that is true. However, with "interest" is alas not so true. When I left (at the end of my contract) I looked at the date in the bank book that BCC gave me with my 20 000 baht as to when the money had been deposited. The money had been deposited in my account 5 days before. Where I asked myself had my 20 000 baht been for the rest of the year? Well I can only speculate that it might have been in BCC's account with all the other teachers deposits earning the school the interest. I cant honestly see that the board of directors had it stashed under their beds!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remove BCC from the HOS? surely not. Well It is drawing near to the end of term, I am sure we will we see some fresh light on the so called improvements at BCC.

Peace

wordsworth

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #233 on: February 23, 2007, 02:24:00 am »
How about we stay on the topic of BCC?  Please take the fight somewhere else.    ::)

I've heard that today, Friday the 23rd, is renewal letter day here at BCC's IEP.  This event should be very revealing about how we are being dealt with at BCC.  I'll keep you informed. 

Enquiring Minds Want to Know

Your BCC Correspondent,

Mr. X

Offline anyonefortennis

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #234 on: February 23, 2007, 09:27:09 am »
Mr. X, anything to report yet?

Just outta interest what's the average turnover % at other schools? 10 / 20%?

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #235 on: February 23, 2007, 11:18:26 am »
That is a very good question.

What are expected turnover rates in general?
Is there a difference in turnover rates from BKK schools vs rural schools?
Is there a difference between int'l schools, private bilingual programs, private EP programs, gov't schools?

I don't think there is any way to get accurate data and statistics, but I am curious.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #236 on: February 23, 2007, 12:17:29 pm »
As schools like BCC are not transparent in their practices, I don't see how you can expect the same from TEFL Watch.

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #237 on: February 23, 2007, 12:44:02 pm »
We have no set criteria for getting schools out of the Hall of Shame. BCC deserve their bad reputation not "may have deserved"

There are many charges that have been levelled against BCC in this thread and which have still not been explained, BCC have still not taken any action to change things..

They still illegally keep back money.
They still deduct money for paying you your salary.

Notice that no one tried to defend the legalities of these two actions, they just try to justify this illegal practice.


To get out of the Hall of Shame BCC should IMHO:

1. Explain and rectify all accusations to the satisfaction of this board.
2. Apologise for their past behaviour in their treatment of teachers.
3. Have no negative posts about their conduct for at least a year.
4. Get someone more articulate than JJ to represent them.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #238 on: February 25, 2007, 03:54:23 am »
How so?

I value the site because it helped me in the past.  If I find that my present school is being judged only on events more than a year old, and I honestly believe things have dramatically changed for the better, why would I not defend the school?  How would that make me a shill or stooge? 

The long memories, longstanding biases, and axes to grind by some members here are offensive.  If it is impossible for a school with a poor reputation to make an honest effort to clean up its act, and have that information fairly reported, then why does this site exist? 

I was under the impression that the purpose TEFLWatch is to report both the positive and negative experiences of teachers.  Perhaps I am naive but I believe this site was designed to inform and empower teachers, and also to pressure schools to change. 

So when a school does change, what is the result here?  Continued condemnation?  Why is it that anyone who justifiably defends the present conditions BCC is attacked or insulted?  It doesn't make sense to me. 

I am a teacher like you.  I have been burned by schools here, also like you.  I only ask for reasoned argument, inquisitive discourse, and acceptance of truth based in facts.  Is that unreasonable?  Continued denial of facts, along with irrational and emotional arguments will further erode the credibility of this site.   It will prevent teachers from making informed decisions, and diminish the power of this site push schools to in a positive direction.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 04:48:14 am by los_teacher »

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #239 on: February 25, 2007, 08:49:50 am »
How so?

I value the site because it helped me in the past.  If I find that my present school is being judged only on events more than a year old, and I honestly believe things have dramatically changed for the better, why would I not defend the school?  How would that make me a shill or stooge? 

The long memories, longstanding biases, and axes to grind by some members here are offensive.  If it is impossible for a school with a poor reputation to make an honest effort to clean up its act, and have that information fairly reported, then why does this site exist? 

I was under the impression that the purpose TEFLWatch is to report both the positive and negative experiences of teachers.  Perhaps I am naive but I believe this site was designed to inform and empower teachers, and also to pressure schools to change. 

So when a school does change, what is the result here?  Continued condemnation?  Why is it that anyone who justifiably defends the present conditions BCC is attacked or insulted?  It doesn't make sense to me. 

I am a teacher like you.  I have been burned by schools here, also like you.  I only ask for reasoned argument, inquisitive discourse, and acceptance of truth based in facts.  Is that unreasonable?  Continued denial of facts, along with irrational and emotional arguments will further erode the credibility of this site.   It will prevent teachers from making informed decisions, and diminish the power of this site push schools to in a positive direction.



Hi los_teacher, believe it or not hearing that BCC is making a change is welcome news; it demonstrates that TEFLwatch is worthwhile. However, BCC is still guilty of illegal activities. Withholding monies from teachers as a ransom is one example. This has been argued before by pro BCC teachers with statements like...”you didn't have to sign the contract, etc, etc". This does not change the fact that withholding money from teachers is illegal. If BCC want out of the HOS then why don’t they do the following?

1. Stop withholding money from teachers.
2. Stop charging teachers to deposit wages.
3. Apologise for their previous behaviour towards teachers.

In my opinion if BCC were to do the above then they would earn a reprieve from the HOS. Until these changes are made, I feel that it is the duty of TEFLwatch and its members to keep the pressure on BCC until they abide by the law of THEIR OWN country and demonstrate a fair working environment for the teachers.


Peace

wordsworth
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 08:52:00 am by wordsworth »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #240 on: February 25, 2007, 10:34:09 am »
How so?

I value the site because it helped me in the past.  If I find that my present school is being judged only on events more than a year old, and I honestly believe things have dramatically changed for the better, why would I not defend the school?  How would that make me a shill or stooge? 
You have a perfect right to defend your school los_teacher, and the way you have gone about it, in my book at least, has not made you a stooge. I think that the stooge thing was aimed at JJ more  than anyone!

As wordsworth stated, as I have stated, and as many others have stated there does appear to be change going on, and that is a good, no a great thing.
The long memories, longstanding biases, and axes to grind by some members here are offensive.  If it is impossible for a school with a poor reputation to make an honest effort to clean up its act, and have that information fairly reported, then why does this site exist?
It does not seem to me to be impossible to report that progress has been made, as you imply above. In fact you are one of those that destroys that argument, seeing as how you do report change!
Yes people have long memories, people were badly treated by BCC in the past and they will have axes to grind, let them be ground! If ground for long enough there will only be an axe handle left.
 

I was under the impression that the purpose TEFLWatch is to report both the positive and negative experiences of teachers.  Perhaps I am naive but I believe this site was designed to inform and empower teachers, and also to pressure schools to change. 
No not naïve! I think you have summed it up completely! You yourself felt empowered to take the job there even though the school had a bad rep, even though the previous singers of praise suddenly became quiet during the annual teacher cull, you weighed upo the good and the bad and made your decision.


So when a school does change, what is the result here?  Continued condemnation?  Why is it that anyone who justifiably defends the present conditions BCC is attacked or insulted?  It doesn't make sense to me. 
To use a metaphor here; in much the same way as Thailand has changed from the agrarian society it was 50 years into what it is now. It is still a developing country, because changes are happening it does not mean that it is a developed country, there is a long way to go.
OK with BCC changes are happening and there may not be that far to go, but every indication seems to point to the fact that some things are not changing! You tried to make light of one of the points that people bring up against BCC:
1) Bank Fee:  10 bt per month = 120 bt per year.  That's about the price of a beer.  This year BCC gave me a sleeping bag for my birthday, 3 shirts for various events, and a half baht of gold at christmas.
I admit that I extracted the urine over the 30 pieces of silver, and in reality you are perfectly correct in stating that 10 baht a month is a trifling amount! But if it is indeed so petty an amount, why doesn't the board of BCC drop it, abolish it, start acting reasonably! Could it be that whilst it is a miniscule amount in real terms it is in fact a huge piece of control that they are exerting over the teachers! And lets face it, Thai society is a society based on control!
Lets look at the 20k baht ransom money, many claims and counter claims have been made about this subject. It was brought in I believe to try and overcome the problem with itinerant backpacking teachers doing a runner and leaving the school in the lurch, well that’s how it was explained by a previous singer of praises, and as such there was an iota of merit in the scheme. But you and others have repeatedly made claims that recruitment procedures have been tightened and thus there is no longer this element of ‘fly by night’ teachers working there, so why the ransom? Could this also be simply a control mechanism?
Could not some other, more acceptable control mechanism be sought that would ensure continual teacher retention at least until the end of the contract, that would be an inducement to teachers and not the red rag to a bull the present mechanism so evidently is!


I am a teacher like you.  I have been burned by schools here, also like you.  I only ask for reasoned argument, inquisitive discourse, and acceptance of truth based in facts.  Is that unreasonable?  Continued denial of facts, along with irrational and emotional arguments will further erode the credibility of this site.   It will prevent teachers from making informed decisions, and diminish the power of this site push schools to in a positive direction.
Reasoned argument; yes, inquisitive discourse; yes and even acceptance of truth based in facts; definitely yes, but that indeed has to work both ways! The only denial of facts that I see is that of people like yourself that seem to deny that the ransom and payment charge is offensive to teachers, yes I know that you say you do not find them offensive, but surely you can see that many do?



3. Apologise for their previous behaviour towards teachers.

 

On this point I totally agree with ahriman, previous post. Its totally not within the Thai psyche to apologize, the loss of face would be too great! Attainable goals yes, the insurmountable. No definitely not!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 10:38:00 am by Mods-Rockers »

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #241 on: February 25, 2007, 11:06:45 am »
Well, a couple of posts were deleted from this thread, in particular the one I responded too late last night.  LOL - that's ok. 

I wonder if the three things wordsworth mentioned above would be enough to place a school in the HoS.  If they are not enough to place a school into a classification as 'one of the worst places to work in Thailand' then it hardly seems fair that those would be the criteria for removal.  I will, however, leave the HoS admission/removal business to the admin/mod team.

The three things mentioned.

1) Withholding money from teachers.  As far as I am aware this is not against the law, though I am no lawyer and could be wrong.  I do know that it is common for new Thai employees in various positions throughout Thailand to pay a guarantee of several thousand bt before they can begin a position.  Included in this are Central department stores, Security Guard positions, many sales positions, banks, etc.  Additionally they must pay for uniforms and perhaps undergo training with no pay.  These are practices that would not be allowed in our home countries, but are perfectly legal here.  We must be careful to judge a Thai organization, not own our own notions of right or wrong, but on the common practice of organizations within Thailand.  I have mentioned before that I do not like this practice, but I accept it as a condition of employment.  In my opinion there are other benefits that more than make up for this.  Again, I am not a lawyer and will leave those issues to people who really do know the law.

2) 10 bt per month for Salary Deposit.  It surprises me that people would feel so strongly about this as I see this one as totally a non-issue.  120 bt per year is not something I will lose sleep over.  As I mentioned before, BCC is generous in other ways, birthday presents, Christmas presents, etc.  Their generosity in these actions should be weighed against this particular policy.

3) Apology for Past Behavior.  While that would be nice, I think we all know about the likelihood of this event.  Thailand does not have a culture of apology.  There are numerous threads all over expat forums regarding this cultural phenomena.  Thailand is a very polite society, but the rules of polite behavior often confuse and frustrate westerners.  Notions of kreng jai, and nam jai are difficult for foreigners to understand and adapt to.  Open and public apology is rare.  Instead, individuals and organizations often prefer to right a wrong by good deeds.  Within the culture, those deeds need not directly benefit the aggrieved parties as merit is made by good deeds to any party. 

Here are some of the changes that have been made this year.  It should be noted that I can only comment on my experiences in the EIP - Mathayom.   There are six departments with six different managements structures, so the experiences of teachers would vary.

1) Salary.  In an effort to retain quality teachers, and find high quality replacements for those who leave, BCC has retooled the contract with great benefit to teachers.  The basic salary has been increased by 5,000 bt for all foreign teaching staff.  Other line item increases for subject qualifications, TEFL qualifications, homeroom teachers, etc. are also significant.  The minimum basic salary has increase is 5,000 bt, and for some is as high as 13,000 bt, with most teachers falling somewhere in between.  The school now offers a salary and benefit package equal to, or higher than its competitors in the BKK EP arena.  For those teachers who benefit the most by the salary restructuring this represents a massive increase of almost 30%.

2) The benefits include medical insurance, 7 sick days, paid holidays (government holidays, mid-term break, Christmas/New Years, and summer), free lunch, various gifts, and a large bonus.

3) Student Discipline.  This has been a problem in the past and continues to be a problem.  Disciplinary procedures have been promulgated that may prove to be successful over the long run, but will take time, and more importantly, participation from all teaching staff in order to be truly successful.

4) Quality of Education.  New textbooks have been chosen where appropriate.  Remedial classes have been added to bring up the level of weaker students.  Accelerated classes have been added to challenge the stronger ones.  SAT, O-NET, A-NET, and TOEFEL preparation classes have been added to ensure students can obtain admission to the finer schools in Thailand and abroad.    All of these classes are provided to the students free of charge.  It is the duty of the school to prepare students for the next step in their academic careers.

5) Student Performance.  Students get the grade they deserve.  If a student fails he will have the opportunity to make up missed work, do an extra credit project, and/or retake an examination.  If the student still does not pass they get a zero for the grade in that class.  There are no artificial distributions of 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 grades as well.  Whatever grade the student earns is the grade the receive.

6) Management.  The management has been very supportive of teachers this year.  Most problems were were met with a sympathetic ear, and addressed immediately and effectively. 

7) Parental Influence.  This has not been a problem this year.  Every parent has the opportunity to meet with every teacher privately at the end of each semester on parent-teacher conference day.  This has helped to bridge the gaps and misunderstandings that naturally arise.  Parents are more comfortable dealing with teachers directly as a result.  The management has been strong in deflecting and buffering the direct impact of parents on classroom and teaching issues.

8) Class size.  Class sizes range from 12 to 30 students depending on grade level and subject.

9) Teaching Periods.  The number of weekly classes taught is a maximum of 22 periods with many teachers below that number. Some departments will see this further reduced to 20 periods next year.

10) Retention and Contract Renewal.  Every teacher in my department was offered a renewal of contract informally early this month.  Every teacher who indicated that they would like to remain have been offered a contract renewal.  Not one teacher was terminated.  There will still be some turnover as a few people will return to their home countries.  One or two others are leaving the school for positions that further their careers in education (i.e. to university or management positions).  This is in stark contrast to what happened at the end of last year.

I believe all of these changes are quite positive.  Of the four schools I have worked for in Thailand, my experience at BCC has been, by far, the most positive.  I think that no school is perfect, including BCC.  There are still a great many improvements that can be made.  Based on my experiences this year however, I feel confident that BCC will continue to improve for the teachers, the parents, and most importantly, the students.  I have hope that, over time, BCC will rise to become one of the top of EP schools, and will be able to offer a high-quality, low-cost alternative to international schools in Bangkok.  It will never be an ISB, but with vision, and sustained effort by teachers and management, it has the potential to come close. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 12:08:43 pm by los_teacher »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #242 on: February 25, 2007, 12:14:41 pm »
Los_teacher. You raise some very valid good point below! There are however some areas that raise questions in my mind, and I dare say in the minds of others!

Here are some of the changes that have been made this year.  It should be noted that I can only comment on my experiences in the EIP - Mathayom.   There are six departments with six different managements structures, so the experiences of teachers would vary.
It would be nice if the other department could also find a reasonable spokesman as well and thus a good overall picture of the school as a whole could be built up!



1) Salary.  The contract has been retooled with great benefit to teachers.  The basic salary has been increased by 5,000 bt for all foreign teaching staff.  Other line item benefits for subject qualifications, TEFL qualifications, homeroom teachers, etc. are also significant.  The basic salary has increased by as much as 13,000 bt monthly.  The school now offers a salary and benefit package equal to, or higher than its competitors in the BKK EP arena.  For those teachers who benefit the most by the salary restructuring this represents a massive increase of almost 30%.
Good point, no quibbles there!


2) The benefits include medical insurance, 7 sick days, paid holidays (government holidays, mid-term break, Christmas/New Years, and summer), free lunch, various gifts, and a large bonus.
First question, a quick read of Thai employment law will show that all employees in this country are entitled to up to 30 days paid sick leave! Does BCC withhold pay for any sick days between 7 and 30?


3) Student Discipline.  This has been a problem in the past and continues to be a problem.  Disciplinary procedures have been promulgated that may prove to be successful over the long run, but will take time, and more importantly, participation from all teaching staff in order to be truly successful.
well as this is ongoing there seems little point is discussing the changes until they are seen to have worked!


4) Quality of Education.  New textbooks have been chosen where appropriate.  Remedial classes have been added to bring up the level of weaker students.  Accelerated classes have been added to challenge the stronger ones.  SAT, O-NET, A-NET, and TOEFEL preparation classes have been added to ensure students can obtain admission to the finer schools in Thailand and abroad.    All of these classes are provided to the students free of charge.  It is the duty of the school to prepare students for the next step in their academic careers.
Free of charge? I hardly think that the schools fees for BCC are zero! It seems to me here that you are merely providing what should be provided! But that said it sounds like a positive thing as many schools dot not provide as much!


5) Student Performance.  Students get the grade they deserve.  If a student fails he will have the opportunity to make up missed work, do an extra credit project, and/or retake an examination.  If the student still does not pass they get a zero for the grade in that class.  There are no artificial distributions of 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 grades as well.  Whatever grade the student earns is the grade the receive.
two questions spring to mind here; one you may be able to partially answer and the other may take a little longer:
1.   If after all the possibilities for gaining extra credit have been exhausted, but the student still has a failing grade, will he be kept back in that academic year until he does pass the requirements for that year or will he be passed upwards anyway when it has been proved that he does not meet the requirements for the next year?
2.   Will students who continue to do badly throughout their academic career at BCC be issued with a graduation certificate that reflects this bad performance or will the certificate, as often happens in Thailand suddenly show a straight A student?


6) Management.  The management has been very supportive of teachers this year.  Most problems were were met with a sympathetic ear, and addressed immediately and effectively.
Good point again!
 

7) Parental Influence.  This has not been a problem this year.  Every parent has the opportunity to meet with every teacher privately at the end of each semester on parent-teacher conference day.  This has helped to bridge the gaps and misunderstandings that naturally arise.  Parents are more comfortable dealing with teachers directly as a result.  The management has been strong in deflecting and buffering the direct impact of parents on classroom and teaching issues.
Again good point!


8) Class size.  Class sizes range from 12 to 30 students depending on grade level and subject.
Again good point!


9) Teaching Periods.  The number of weekly classes taught is a maximum of 22 periods with many teachers below that number. Some departments will see this further reduced to 20 periods next year.
Well improvement anyway!


10) Retention and Contract Renewal.  Every teacher in my department was offered a renewal of contract informally early this month.  Every teacher who indicated that they would like to remain have been offered a contract renewal.  Not one teacher was terminated.  There will still be some turnover as a few people will return to their home countries.  One or two others are leaving the school for positions that further their careers in education (i.e. to university or management positions).  This is in stark contrast to what happened at the end of last year.
Its good to see you admit to the culls of previous years, maybe the more vigilant recruitment procedures are paying off, if so then why the continued requirement for the ransom money?


I believe all of these changes are quite positive.  Of the four schools I have worked for in Thailand, my experience at BCC has been, by far, the most positive.  I think that no school is perfect, including BCC.  There are still a great many improvements that can be made.  Based on my experiences this year however, I feel confident that BCC will continue to improve for the teachers, the parents, and most importantly, the students.  I have hope that, over time, BCC will rise to become one of the top of EP schools, and will be able to offer a high-quality, low-cost alternative to international schools in Bangkok.  It will never be an ISB, but it has the potential to come close. 

As many would hope that this apparent improvement will in fact be sustained and the paradigm will be followed by other schools!

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #243 on: February 25, 2007, 12:53:57 pm »
M-R, to address your questions:

1)  It would be nice if teachers from other departments would speak here, but in personal conversations I've had I get the impression that most don't want to put themselves in the line of fire for the kind of abuse others have received in the recent past.  I recognize that a concerted effort is being made by the moderators and admin to stop that kind of thing, but it might be a little while before teachers recognize and appreciate that...

2) Absences between 7-30 days.  Historically BCC has never withheld monies for absences in that range.  According to the terms of the contract they can, but have not elected to do so in the past.  To the best of my knowledge no money has been deducted from anyone for absences in the current academic year.

3) Grades Point 1.  The school follows MoE law on whether students pass a grade.  It is my understanding that Thai law indicates that for students to be held back a grade they must fail 3 core subject courses for two consecutive terms.  Honestly, I have never heard of this happening in any school in Thailand.

4) Grades Point 2.  I have no reason to believe that the final academic record or transcript (which I have never seen) would be different from the term by term grading transcripts (which I have seen).  I personally have failed students.  Those grades are entered into a master database for the school, printed, and given to parents.  In the case of the two failing grades, I signed the printout that was delivered to the parents.  In the end I have no way of knowing what the final transcript indicates, but I believe that he school provides accurate reporting in this respect.

5) The 'ransom money'.  Perhaps when the time comes that foreign teachers stop trying to use fake credentials, and stop leaving mid-year, the bonds of trust can more firmly be established. I can only hope that higher salaries and more stringent recruitment policies will minimize this problem, thus building the necessary trust between new foreign teachers and the administration.  If this occurs perhaps the policy would indeed be abolished.  Unfortunately, as we all know, there is an an unsavory contingent in the expat community in Thailand.  These characters know how to hustle and con, and can often fool even the foreign teachers involved in the recruitment and selection process.  These bad apples cause all kind of problems for us hard-working, dedicated teachers.  Perhaps the stricter laws that the government is proposing will help in this area, but that remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 01:17:40 pm by los_teacher »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #244 on: February 25, 2007, 02:01:44 pm »
Thanks for the answers Los, will get back to you on them but today I have to do yest another of the wifes relations weddings so kinda busy!

Offline wordsworth

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #245 on: February 25, 2007, 02:05:55 pm »
Dear los_teacher,

As M-R has pointed out you have brought to our attention some good and valid points. However, with regard to point number 5 that you made............

Quote from los_teacher
5) The 'ransom money'.  Perhaps when the time comes that foreign teachers stop trying to use fake credentials, and stop leaving mid-year, the bonds of trust can more firmly be established. I can only hope that higher salaries and more stringent recruitment policies will minimize this problem, thus building the necessary trust between new foreign teachers and the administration.  If this occurs perhaps the policy would indeed be abolished.  Unfortunately, as we all know, there is an an unsavory contingent in the expat community in Thailand.  These characters know how to hustle and con, and can often fool even the foreign teachers involved in the recruitment and selection process.  These bad apples cause all kind of problems for us hard-working, dedicated teachers.  Perhaps the stricter laws that the government is proposing will help in this area, but that remains to be seen.


It seems that no matter what argument other members present, you always seem to have an excuse for supporting BCC's policy of withholding money from their teachers. You are indeed entitled to your opinion on this matter. However, this is a pro teacher site and not a pro school site. Therefore, if a school has a policy that is unfair and at the expense of the teachers, then there are valid grounds to have the policy aired in a pro teacher forum.
Can I ask….do you condone this policy?
It seems to me that there have been people in the past that have come on to the forum wearing the BCC pants of glory, only to find that they are often stained with the skid marks of iniquity.

Peace

Wordsworth

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #246 on: February 25, 2007, 04:12:40 pm »
Interesting question.

Did I enjoy having the money withheld?  Decidedly not.
Did I feel that it showed a certain lack of faith in new teachers?  Absolutely.
Do I understand why the measures were taken?  Yes, unfortunately.
Do I condone or support the policy?  I guess I'm on the fence here.
Do I accept the policy as a condition of working at what has proven to be a decent school?  Yes.


I really don't know how to answer on this one.  I understand both points of view, and can find reasonable argument both for and against retaining such a policy in the future.  We're very much in a gray area here on the ethics I think. 

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #247 on: February 25, 2007, 04:14:37 pm »
In light of the recent reports of improvments at BCC; I think their removal from the HOS should be considered.  But, in this debate, some of you need to be reminded of a few facts.  BCC has launched witchhunts on posters on this board.  BCC forced Ajarn to remove the link from his site to this board.  BCC made international news this school year.
BCC was represented on this board by a complete bafoon, who will not even state his credentials.  His English skills appear to barely make the high school level.  And, let's not forget the immigration raid at BCC in the Fall.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #248 on: February 25, 2007, 04:30:15 pm »
I am not a representative of the school on this site.  I come here freely, at my own discretion, and perhaps at some personal risk, in order to explain about the present conditions, and about my experiences over the course of this last year.  I also come because I value the site and its unique position to help and inform teachers.

For these reasons I believe that it would be best if I stay out of any argument as to whether the school should be removed from the HoS.  That isn't my decision, and I do not wish to get embroiled in that kind of debate, which is sure to get nasty.   


Offline wordsworth

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #249 on: February 25, 2007, 04:48:21 pm »
I am not a representative of the school on this site.  I come here freely, at my own discretion, and perhaps at some personal risk, in order to explain about the present conditions, and about my experiences over the course of this last year.  I also come because I value the site and its unique position to help and inform teachers.

For these reasons I believe that it would be best if I stay out of any argument as to whether the school should be removed from the HoS.  That isn't my decision, and I do not wish to get embroiled in that kind of debate, which is sure to get nasty.   



Fair enough los_teacher. I hope that you continue to contribute to TEFLwatch and to give us first hand information on improvements in BCC.

Peace

wordsworth 

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #250 on: February 25, 2007, 05:12:04 pm »
LOS, thanks for the candid info...your contributions to the forum are valuable.

The "Ransom" money issue....

If you run a business where you've spent money getting people you barely know a WP and visa and then gotten screwed out of it....what would you do?  I've heard alot of bitching...as always, but no credible suggestions of how BCC should handle this problem...Hey, how many of you want to give me 5000 baht ......Oh, and I promise to pay it back!

But what do I know...

Offline Mr X

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #251 on: February 25, 2007, 09:07:48 pm »
Salutations BCC Lovers,

I’m not sure about the total number of IEP teachers renewed yet.  We received the letters late on Friday afternoon.  I think about three people were let go, but I’m not sure yet.  Since several people in my department have deduced my identity, I will reserve my opinion about these non-renewals.

For my own part, I am quite happy and feel treated well by my bosses.  In IEP, we have had a very sizable raise like the EIP fellows.  Yes, I am one very happy corporate stooge these days.

Now, I will render my thoughts regarding the infamous 20K withholding.  I don’t care for the retainer, and I have mentioned this before.  My first encounter with this strange motivational tool was at a Sarasas school where 9K was withheld.  This money was returned to me at the end of the contract.  The one government school I worked for withheld nothing.

I asked my dear wife, a lawyer, about the legality of the retainer policy.  From what she told me, I understand that it is legal if you sign the contract.  You will get your money back if the contract conditions are fulfilled.  If you want to earn interest, you must get it written into the contract.  So, all of this appears to be within Thai law, but I agree that it is not equitable.

My Pappy taught me to choose my battles, and I don’t see the interest as something worth fighting over. I am not overjoyed that the money is withheld for two years.  If I have to endure a retainer, I think that one year of stability should prove it to be unnecessary to keep it a second year. 

In summary, I still sing the praises of the BCC IEP (see my prior posts).  I like it much better than my previous two schools, and I was pleased to sign on for a second year. 

Your Corporate Shill,

Mr. X



Offline Speaksoftly

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #252 on: February 26, 2007, 04:11:17 am »
It's a fair question, what a school should do to get out of the HoS.  It should take a certain amount of evil and incorrigibility for a school to get into the HoS in the first place- so it's not merely a matter of one or two good items of news; I think to take a school out of HoS requires a completely new trend of good news to be set by the school.  What this means would differ from school to school.  In BCC's case, considering how long they have been a problem and the extent of the problems....  as a mod I would support their removal from the HoS if there were absolutely no new credible complaints about the place from anyone for a period of at least two years, during which they would also not have made the news for any deaths, criminal arrests, etc.

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #253 on: February 26, 2007, 02:38:07 pm »
I think 2 years is a bit long....would suggest in BCC's case 2 months with no negative publicity would allow them out of the HoS.  We've already heard nothing but positive from the teachers currently employed there so lets give the school a chance. 
Personally, I think BCC has gone out of the way to chance things .... lets let them out of the HoS and then see how they treat the staff. 

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #254 on: February 26, 2007, 04:19:45 pm »
I would support their removal after 2 years of no new negative reports.

Quote
so lets give the school a chance.

Did they give certain teachers a chance when they got rid of them for no reason? I didn't think so....

They also should show they trust their staff by keeping back money which IS illegal btw and droppiing the charge to get your own money paid into a bank account that is chosen BY THE SCHOOL. It may only be 120 baht, but it's the principle.

Offline Stan the Man

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #255 on: March 08, 2007, 07:55:15 pm »
I see their advertising like crazy on the in the job website  ;). Not bad mula for an EP.

However you'd have to be one desperate m-fooker to want to work there. Especially with that strainer working there as a Head Teacher of Farang staff.

Get your act together dudes.

What do ya reckon?

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #256 on: March 08, 2007, 08:16:54 pm »
Strangely last years cull made many of BCC's mouthpieces suddenly very quiet, some never to be heard of again. We are now, yet again in the cull period and what do you know, all the mouthpieces have become...

And as stan so rightly points out they are indeed advertizing like crazy dispite being told only a few weeks ago that there would be little need for new staff.

JJ where are you man? time to back up your words from times past!

Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #257 on: March 08, 2007, 09:04:43 pm »
Strangely enough, if they got rid of JJ, BCC would rise in my estimation.....

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #258 on: March 08, 2007, 09:05:13 pm »
Er - maybe nobody is saying anything because everything has already been said.

1) Very little staff turnover.  A few positions need to be filled.  Proactive management means advertise quickly for those positions to get the best candidates.

2) Very large salary increase.  Contracts signed today.

Happy teachers means nothing to complain about....

 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 09:08:29 pm by los_teacher »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #259 on: March 08, 2007, 09:09:55 pm »
Then I am happy for you Los-teacher, strange though for JJ not to gloat, or was his one of the positions needing filling?

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #260 on: March 08, 2007, 09:18:03 pm »
Thanks for the positive words M-R.   {-}

As far as I know JJ is still in IEP - haven't heard anything to the contrary. 

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #261 on: March 09, 2007, 09:01:38 pm »
Heck, no new culls, no media attention, no teachers bitchin....perhaps things are changing there and thats why no one is talking.....personally, I think this horse has been ridden into the dirt.

Offline stevejones123

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #262 on: March 09, 2007, 09:43:42 pm »
-----"A happy friendly atmosphere where I enjoy being Monday to Friday.  We cover classes for each other happily when needed as we know the favor is always returned."------

In thirty years of teaching I have never known unpaid substitution to be anything but a cause of endless bitching.
a) Have I been incredibly unlucky?
b) Is the OP living in Nirvana?
c) Is she lying over this, and probably a lot of other things as well?

Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #263 on: March 14, 2007, 03:43:08 pm »
Actually, my contract was for 22 hours and anything over that was overtime. My schedule was 20 hours a week. I generally didn't have to cover more than a class per month, we didn't have many absences. It wasn't a major issue.  On the rare occasion that I had to cover more than 2 classes a week, I was paid overtime.
 I guess you worked in a different department. 

Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #264 on: March 14, 2007, 03:50:27 pm »
LOL - go ahead, breathe normally then.

I'm not going to be an apologist for things that may have been said or done in the past as I have only worked here for one year.  I honestly believe, however, that the administration has bent over backwards this year to rectify most things that gave people cause for complaint.  Perhaps it's the dawn of a new era for BCC.

I feel the same way.

Offline bettyboo

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #265 on: March 16, 2007, 07:50:34 pm »
Thanks for the input on BCC - almost "made the leap" here!

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #266 on: March 17, 2007, 03:48:14 pm »
Betty,

Is it true that you are the owner of a school, that may be headed to the HOS?

Los-teacher,

The EIP program appears to have at least six vacancies advertised on the job board.  Would you care to comment on this year's turnover at SUCI (Sathorn UnChristian Institute)? 

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #267 on: March 17, 2007, 04:04:55 pm »
Regarding EIP Mathayom (I cannot speak to Prathom)

1)  There is one vacancy that hasn't been filled.

2)   The staffing summary

  9 retentions - contracts signed
  4 back to countries of origin
  2 on to other positions in Thailand
  0 terminations
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 04:43:45 pm by los_teacher »

Offline RobRoy

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #268 on: March 17, 2007, 05:07:47 pm »
Los...thats over a 30% turnover rate.  A little high, but just about average for a school of that size.  My somewhat limited experience (3 schools over 4 years) is about a 25% turnover rate.  Last contract signing at my school was a 20% turnover rate (1 teacher left, the other 4 of us were offered another contract).   I taught at one school where it was a 90% turnover (9 out of ten farangs, myself included resigned).  So perhaps things are settling down there at BCC.  Its good to hear things are getting better and no current employees have been bitching lately.  Perhaps BCC is turning a new leaf?

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #269 on: March 17, 2007, 05:17:22 pm »
Far better than my last gig with something like 250% turnover in a little over 18 months.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #270 on: March 17, 2007, 05:53:19 pm »
Yeah - 30% is a bit high I agree.  I am hoping the school can keep that to between 10 and 20% next year.  It's best for everyone when teachers stay.

It is worthwhile to point out that all the folks who are leaving were offered contract renewals.  The two who are remaining in Thailand are going on to good positions - one to a university, and the other to management at another EP.  There isn't much we can do about the four people who are done with Thailand and going home.

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #271 on: March 18, 2007, 02:37:14 pm »
Regarding EIP Mathayom (I cannot speak to Prathom)
1)  There is one vacancy that hasn't been filled.
2)   The staffing summary
  9 retentions - contracts signed
  4 back to countries of origin
  2 on to other positions in Thailand
  0 terminations

9 Out of 15; that's a 40% turnover.  Were the 9 there the entire year, or were they the second, third, or fourth teachers in their positions for the school year?

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #272 on: March 18, 2007, 02:40:17 pm »
And we are still waiting to hear from JJ.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 02:43:29 pm by Thighlander »

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #273 on: March 18, 2007, 03:44:22 pm »
Forty percent is correct.  Apologies, I should have done the math myself.   

No matter, four people returning to their countries of origin does not automatically indicate something negative about the school, their workplace.  The decision to return to one's country is not made lightly.  The reasoning behind this kind of decision is complex, and the specific reasons would vary widely from one person to the next.

I believe 2 out of 15 (13.3%) would be more appropriate when gathering evidence in order to cast aspersions.  Of the 9 returning teachers, 7 worked at the school the entire year.


Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #274 on: March 18, 2007, 04:12:56 pm »
So it would be fair to say that only seven (of 15) teachers that will start next year started the previous year.  That actually shows a turnover of around 55% in 12 months.

That's very high IMO and IME.

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #275 on: March 18, 2007, 04:52:41 pm »
Brits will claim it was the young Disraeli, whereas merkins claim it was Mark Twain, makes no matter either way but the saying goes to paraphrase "Lies, damn lies and statistics" both Hero and Los_teacher use the same figures to arrive at diametrically opposed outcomes.

What really matters is that, there appears to be little by way of dessent amonst those that have left! Although some might say they have had some sort of gagging placed upon them, maybe we have to wait until those that have left have also left Thailand, or maybe everything is rosy.  Will we ever know?

It is interesting that JJ has not been on gloating, maybe there is little to gloat about!

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #276 on: March 18, 2007, 04:59:29 pm »
That statistic is also true.

There were 5 personnel changes midyear: 2 terminations for cause, 1 grad school admission, and 2 family emergencies.  While there has been significant turnover I am not certain what this is supposed to indicate about the school, except perhaps the need for improved employee recruitment and selection.

Good point MR.  Statistics can be used to say darn near anything, which is kind of my point as well.  What are these statistics telling us?  It is important to look at the reasons behind the statistics in order to make rational conclusions. 

I don't really know what to say.  Despite having a stellar record in terms of the posts from this year's BCC teachers, there has been a nearly constant barrage of criticism and innuendo from people who do not work there.  To be fair, I think some people here are finally accepting the possibility that things have changed for the better at BCC.  At least the criticism isn't as strong as it once was.  Perhaps suspicion is warranted.  I don't know.  Sigh.  It is frustrating though.  I didn't see first-hand what happened last year.  No workplace is perfect, but I have been quite pleased overall with how things have gone this year, and I look forward to working at BCC next year. 

Wow - I got two bad karma points today.  I wonder why.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 06:01:44 pm by los_teacher »

Offline happyteacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #277 on: March 18, 2007, 08:31:15 pm »
My 5th year has just finished and I just signed for another one.  Salary rise over 10,000 to bring our base up and my monthly increment was just about 2500.  Everybody got a base raise (all departments) with the least being 5000 depending on position and between 1000 to 3000 monthly increment depending on your performance.  With afterschool which is optional I'm at 80,000++.  Not bad! Year end bonus and April paid when not working is also not bad.  No complaints.

As there is 4 departments for farang I'm happy to say that all of us are coming back in my department.  I/we had no problems during the year.  We were informed well in advance about meetings, special projects and this year I only had too come in 1 Saturday. There were 2 trips offered to teachers during the year one being China at a greatly reduced price and one to ChangMai for the flower show which was free.  I did not attend these trips but could have as all were invited. 

All books and supplies that I felt that I would need for next term in May have been ordered and received with no complaints or questions.   I have a brand new computer in my class with internet for my use only.

I work directly with IEP and EIP and both coordinators have been helpful and generous with their time and ideas.  Their Thai bosses have always been helpful as well.

I would like to find something wrong but seriously I can't.  I'm not saying it's Disneyland but I don't dread coming to work and look forward to teaching my students and being with most of my colleagues.


This is just some input from one happy teacher.

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #278 on: March 20, 2007, 02:51:38 pm »
I'm not saying it's Disneyland.....

Disneyland, No.  Fairyland, Perhaps.

Offline bettyboo

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #279 on: March 21, 2007, 05:09:31 am »
Rock on!  This is a great forum!

Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #280 on: March 23, 2007, 09:25:59 am »
I'm not saying it's Disneyland.....

Disneyland, No.  Fairyland, Perhaps.

ahh is that a reference to the cheerleading squad?  :D

I agree with los_teacher and happy teacher. Things that happened in the past need not affect the present or the future at BCC. Any school at Thailand will have a high turnover -- ESL/EFL generally has a high turnover rate. It's a way for many people to support their 'travel habits'. I think BCC has a good number of seasoned teachers who joined last year and signed on again.
I think the important point that is being made here, and by more than one person, is that the work environment is far from unbearable.
This is Thailand. The standards, if that's the appropriate term, and ways of doing things are different. If people are not happy they will move on, if they want something different for their lives they will re-orient themselves. Some people just realize teaching isn't for them.
The turnover at BCC doesn't imply that it's a nightmare.
Things are okay, not perfect. Sometimes things happened that seem convoluted for western minds, but that's part of living in a foreign country and working at a foreign school. It can be very frustrating at times, but there were a lot of very positive occurrences to provide a balance. I really enjoyed my students and my classes.
I guess we many of us are trying to say here is that we felt content here this year and decided to stay on...even before the big raises were disclosed. The fact that we do have a turnover means that we need new staff members every year and blasting the school for past problems is counterproductive. The necessity for staff should not be taken as evidence of the school being a disaster or providing a horrible work environment.
Some people like it here, some people hate it here, some people just move on.


Offline samvimes

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #281 on: March 23, 2007, 10:29:27 am »
Do you still have to swipe in and out like a blue collar worker?

Do they still illegally keep money back?

Do they still charge you money so that you can get paid the salary you have just earnt?

Can students still not fail?


Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #282 on: March 28, 2007, 03:22:19 pm »
SV I think los_teacher discussed all of those issues on the last page of posts here.

I thought it might be interesting to mention that there was a return/contract renewal rate of over 60% this year, everyone who renewed had agreed to come back before they knew of the big raises.

It is substantial improvement over last year where I believe it was only about a 40% over all contract renewal rate...AND it was only about 15% in EIP. Los_Teacher has already mentioned how things look there, and it's much better as far a I can see. I am not a statistician, but I looks as if a lot more people were content at BCC this year than in years past.  ;D

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #283 on: April 07, 2007, 12:09:02 pm »
Do you still have to swipe in and out like a blue collar worker?
Do they still illegally keep money back?
Do they still charge you money so that you can get paid the salary you have just earnt?
Can students still not fail?

SamV
Give it a rest, fella.
Try to remember that hatred destroys the hater, not the hated.

I will admit that swiping in and out is a bit of an insult to Western professionals, but not all
teachers in LOS are professionals as we all know. Adjusting to a different culture is a
cross one must bear if you expect to live overseas. Not a big deal IMO.

However ...........
The fact that you can complain about a 10 baht charge speaks volumes about your judgement
and inability to pick battles.
Witholding money as stated in the contract is NOT illegal so stop with this slander, please.
And did you know that there is both grade inflation and no fail at Harvard ?
So what if they choose to pass everyone and let the ethic of "you get out what you put in" prevail
as it does in all endeavors of life.

BCC's positives far... far outweigh the negatives.
Long past the time to remove the school from this HoS.

Happily renewed teacher


« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 12:13:41 pm by bkkman »

Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #284 on: April 07, 2007, 10:40:24 pm »
Thank you bkkman!


Offline Mr X

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #285 on: April 08, 2007, 07:28:08 pm »
Yes, thanks bkkman.   ^^^^'Nuff said on all that.

Things are never perfect anywhere, but conditions are certainly lightyears better than at my prior two schools.  Plus, I don't think that you'll find any BCC teachers fussing in the Pathetic Salary Levels thread. :happyjump:

Happily Renewed,

Mr X

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #286 on: April 09, 2007, 01:16:56 pm »
I turned down two written job offers by BCC, but not for any of the reasons cited in this thread.  In one interview, two of my interviewers started, er, arguing with each other in the midst of my interview.  While I was waiting for the interview to begin, a former teacher came into the interview waiting area and started hollering that he hadn't been paid his end-of-year bonus (isn't that the security deposit the school keeps?) and he would be leaving the country soon.  It didn't make a good impression me.

In a second interview, after I was offered a contract, I wanted to check with my prospective supervisor about my teaching schedule, since the classes proposed by the board were completely different from those I'd been offered in an email.  When I left the interview building and sought her out, she yelled, "You'll teach what we want, when we want and you won't complain about it!" waving her finger in my face.  "I just wanted to confirm my teaching program BEFORE I signed the contract," I told her.  And I didn't go back to sign my contract either.

BCC may NOT appear in the "Pathetic teaching salary" thread, but no amount of salary is worth pathetic treatment such as that.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #287 on: April 09, 2007, 02:40:40 pm »
I've never heard or seen anything of the sort and am truly in a state of disbelief.  When did this happen?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:00:25 pm by los_teacher »

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #288 on: April 09, 2007, 03:50:12 pm »
I turned down two written job offers by BCC, but not for any of the reasons cited in this thread.  In one interview, two of my interviewers started, er, arguing with each other in the midst of my interview. 
This is quite unusual as I have never seen an interviewee with more than one person at a time.
But even if it happened, what conclusion did you draw that would cause you to refuse the job ?
You think all teachers get along everywhere ?

While I was waiting for the interview to begin, a former teacher came into the interview waiting area and started hollering that he hadn't been paid his end-of-year bonus (isn't that the security deposit the school keeps?)'
End of year bonus is not the same as the security deposit. Nor is it the flight bonus we also receive.
In my 3 years at BCC I know of not a single instance of someone not being paid what was due them.
Not a single instance. On occasion they were late or there was a misunderstanding, but it was always resolved.
I am sure this instance will be too.

When I left the interview building and sought her out, she yelled, "You'll teach what we want, when we want and you won't complain about it!" waving her finger in my face.  "
I simply do not believe you. I know scores of Thai teachers and Admins at BCC and they would NEVER be so rude to a person/prospective teacher they just met. Yelled ?  Hahaha. A Thai Admin would only yell if provoked by someone she knows well.
And pointing a finger ..... I just do not believe you. It is not credible given Thai culture that I know.

No need to reply. I think you made it up and you say it happened.
Let's just agree that we disagree.

Oh and btw, I do not know my schedule for next year. The admins need time to coordinate all the different constraints and it is no easy job. Your demand was unrealistic IMO.





Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #289 on: April 09, 2007, 04:49:13 pm »
My troubles started about fifteen minutes after I signed the "contract" (using the term loosely).  At that point I realized they were not going to give me a copy.  The I was approached by a farang, who told me I would need to be there at 7:15, even though the paper said 7:30.  An hour later I was told that I would need to come before my contract started to prep for the upcoming semester--without pay!  It turns out I was the fourth teacher for the classes that school year.  I also had enormous problems at the Thai Embassy in a neighboring country with my non-imm B.  When the first payday arrived; I did not receive my pro-rated pay as promised by the board.  They told me it would take a week.  I said I needed it because I had just paid up fron for an apartment and deposit.

Then I was given the workbooks that I was to make 150 copies of--that really sucked, too, and is also very illegal.
Speaking of illegal, I was also, told at the time, that not a single person in our office was 100% legal.
I could go on, but keep in mind these problems were encountered before the semester even started.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #290 on: April 09, 2007, 06:31:29 pm »
Ahhh .... now we are just beginning to have some fun.

My troubles started about fifteen minutes after I signed the "contract"
No, your troubles started long, long ago when you decided the world owed you a living.


At that point I realized they were not going to give me a copy. 
Everyone who asks for one gets one.
Pure and simple. You seem to have powers that transcend logic. What was it "they" did or said EXACTLY that led to your erroneous conclusion ?


Then I was approached by a farang, who told me I would need to be there at 7:15, even though the paper said 7:30. 
The written contract says 7:30 and a passerby says 7:15 and you don't know who to believe ?


An hour later I was told that I would need to come before my contract started to prep for the upcoming semester--without pay!
  So did you get paid for that week or not ?  We all come in a week early and we do get paid for it. We get paid monthly. You want us to believe you and you alone do/did not ? 


When the first payday arrived; I did not receive my pro-rated pay as promised by the board.  They told me it would take a week.  I said I needed it because I had just paid up fron for an apartment and deposit.
Now we have caught you in an outright lie. Why would you be getting anything pro-rated ? You just began the semester not only on time, but one week early. You just rented an apt to begin the year. How would pro-rating of pay come about ? 
That occurs when a teacher starts in mid year and wants a proportional bonus payment.
Don't worry. That red flush on your face will disappear in a few hours. Assuming you can still look yourself in the mirror knowing the falsehoods you have fabricated here.


I was also, told at the time, that not a single person in our office was 100% legal.
Pure BS. Every teacher is illegal ? Right ! 5555555


Offline Mr X

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #291 on: April 09, 2007, 07:40:17 pm »
I can only speak for the IEP section and based on one year of experience at BCC.  I never seen nor heard of anything like this in our department.  Having been an interviewer for prospective teachers, we never argued whilst interviewing prospects.  The clock starts at 7.30, and no one has mentioned 7.15 in IEP.  For my own part, I am 100% legal on work permit, teacher's license and visa. 

When I joined BCC, I didn't know about TEFLWatch's existence.  Another teacher brought it to my attention last May.  After having a long read, I was nervous about just what I might have gotten involved with.  However, I have never experienced nor seen anything remotely like the stories that I read in the forum. For my personal curiosity, could we know the program associated with complaints in a post?  Was it IEP, EIP or Regular?  How recent were these experiences?

My fellow IEP teachers and I think that some (or many?) stories are exaggerated, one-sided, distorted and perhaps even more than just slightly embellished. Some stories seem to have some truth while others do not.

Personally, I think that TEFLWatch has been an effective pressure group in certain ways and contributed to some reforms. Let's avoid a smear campaign when the school has responded positively.  Otherwise, the school might just tune TEFLWatch out when they receive only continued negative press.

Sincerely,

Mr. X

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #292 on: April 09, 2007, 11:55:03 pm »
bkkman,
If it weren't for the yelling, finger waving (very uncharacteristic for a Thai) and non-responsive answer to my simple question by the department head, I would have returned to the board and signed the contract.  In fact, when I told my prospective supervisor after her outburst that I hadn't yet signed the contract, she said, "Oh, you haven't signed the contract yet?" in a much more subdued tone.  Inwardly, I thanked her for showing me her true colors.

I have no axe to grind with BCC.  I'm glad I didn't accept the job offered, not angry.  I only described my interview experience and why I chose not to work there.

As for your denigrating and sarcastic comments for teachers who post on this thread, "ah, now we are just beginning to have some fun." [bkkman], I propose to you that it is NOT appropriate, professional or fun to be yelled during a job interview.

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #293 on: April 10, 2007, 12:08:20 am »
Thighlander,
Thank you for describing your experience with BCC.  While this just reinforces my decision not to join BCC staff, I am sorry that you did sign on the dotted line and are now suffering for it.  I think that bkkman is screaming like a stuck pig because the truth does hurt, especially when the reality of the institution is still lagging so far behind the dreams of the PR team.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #294 on: April 10, 2007, 01:18:26 am »
There is no PR team, with the possible exception of JJ who did the hot seat interview.  Let's get that straight.   There have been six or seven happy BCC teachers who, this year, have posted positively about the school.  There was no conspiracy, collusion, or organized attempt at PR.  In my case I posted because I honestly believe that the school has improved.  I was frustrated by the school being judged here only on past circumstances, and not present ones.


Thai Me Up
If you could post more details that would help clarify your experiences that would be great.  I am truly surprised and would like to know which department you applied for, what subjects you were to be teaching, and when these interviews took place.  That would help me gain a clearer understanding of the events you describe.  Since there are six departments and I only work in one of them, I don't feel comfortable commenting too much at this point as I may well not be in a position to do so.


Thailander
I do know a little about the 7:15 rule.  It works like this, teachers must sign in before 7:30.  Most teachers are assigned homeroom duties which means that they line up with a particular class for morning announcements and the national anthem.  This begins promptly at 7:30.  It is therefore suggested that teachers with homeroom responsibilities arrive at 7:15 so that they can drop off any bags they are carrying, and get to the appropriate place on time for homeroom and ensure that the students are lined up and quiet.  Teachers are paid additional money if they are a homeroom teacher.  In my department no teacher was ever reprimanded or had any salary deductions for arriving at 7:29.  Reprimands were given for habitual tardiness (after 7:30), but as far as I know no monies were withheld for any teacher for tardiness. 

As far as preparation for an upcoming semester is concerned, I'll tell a brief story.  Two math teachers were hired for the upcoming year.  Both of them asked for the textbooks over the summer break so that they could prepare themselves for classes when the year starts.  The teachers themselves asked for the materials!  A serious teacher will always want to be prepared.  They are not being paid for this, nor did they expect to be.  They were given copies of the lesson plan form and the project proposal form in case they wanted to get ahead on paperwork.  If they do this they will not be paid, nor do they expect to be.  Preparation is part of a teaching position.  I often work in the evenings or on weekends so that I can deliver high-quality lessonsI do not get paid for this extra work, nor do I expect to be.  It's all part of being a teacher and is part of the reason for lengthy summer holiday periods.

With regards to the copies you were asked to make.  That seems strange.  There are free copy services available to all teachers on campus.  I don't have any clue why you would have been asked to do this.  Throughout the last year teachers paid money out of pocket for certain things (like fish from the market for a science experimentm etc).  Those teachers submit a request for reimbursement and are reimbursed.

As far as your pay is concerned.  All teachers have been paid all monies due and I have not heard of a single instance of a teacher being cheated.  In a few special cases there have been short delays.  This might occur if a brand new teacher, coming in midsemester hasn't been integrated into the personnal and financial records databases.  Teachers are always paid, but I do recall one teacher had to wait a couple of days. 

In order to assess the validity of your statements to the present conditions at BCC could you please indicate when exactly your experiences took place, and for which department and subject.  It is clear that there were problems in the past, nobody is trying to hide that fact.  The school, however, has undergone great changes over this last year.  These changes were implemented so that teachers would be treated fairly, students would get a higher quality education, and parents would get value for their money.


BKKMan
Calm down.  It is not necessary to start a fight on an internet forum.  Sometimes it is good to take a step back and let the emotions settle.  We all need to try to keep the discourse on this forum at a professional level.  There is no need for name-calling on this site ever.  We are teachers and professionals and need to act that way.  Don't let people yank your chain it won't solve anything.  Only through proper discourse can the complete truth come out, especially on a forum.



Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #295 on: April 10, 2007, 02:21:56 am »
los_teacher,
Have you ever eaten at a bad restaurant?  The truth is, most customers don't go back to a bad restaurant if the food and/or service is awful, and most don't complain to the restaurant manager either.  If I don't like my meal or service, I tend to speak up.  I'd say that most of the time the manager will apologize, acknowledge the problem (food is undercooked, cold, etc.) and try to remedy the problem or comp the part of the meal that was substandard.

And so I've shared with this forum my experiences interviewing with BCC, being offered employment and my decision not to work there.  If your working experience there is positive, power to you.  I have no professional or emotional attachment to BCC; I'm just a teacher describing a poor interview experience.

I've reviewed my posts re BCC and to be honest, I'm not going to give you my name, the name of the woman who yelled at me, or the date I interviewed at the school.  I will add that BCC is NOT the only school or agency where I've declined work.  So far, by luck or intuition I've enjoyed two excellent teaching experiences in Bangkok.  If BCC is an excellent teaching experience for you, then I'm happy for you.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #296 on: April 10, 2007, 02:38:05 am »
I didn't ask for your name, or the name of the person who interviewed you. 

Since there are multiple Departments, and subjects within those departments, then this it is reasonable to ask which department and subject in order to determine what the problem was.  It is also relevant to know whether this occurred in this year or sometime in the past.

In any case, while you may have no emotional or professional investment in BCC, I certainly do.  If there are problems we need to know about them so they can be investigated and corrected.  If you are not comfortable posting this information publicly I can understand that.  If you don't mind, I would be grateful if you would PM me with that information.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 03:06:41 am by los_teacher »

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #297 on: April 10, 2007, 03:32:15 am »
I don't need to correct or address any situation at BCC.  I'm here to share my interview experience with BCC on a teachers forum, nothing more.  You seem to question the relevance of my experience or "what the problem was."

Here's the problem:  I've worked successfully at two different schools and several companies, and no Thai admin or teacher has ever yelled at me or wagged her finger at me...except at the BCC interview.  The BCC board offered me the job and my would-be supervisor assumed that I had already signed on the dotted line when I saw her.  After her rant, I felt relieved to have dodged a bullet by NOT working at BCC.

In my previous post, I stated that most restaurant managers will apologize or acknowledge a bad meal problem if it's brought to their attention.  If you, los_teacher, represent BCC in some capacity, and I believe you do, you can say, "Thai_Me_Up, I'm sorry you had this experience at my school."  As to how you run your kitchen or manage your staff (if you are a manager), that's entirely up to you.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #298 on: April 10, 2007, 03:54:38 am »
Thai Me Up, I'm sorry you had this experience at my school. 

I work in one of six departments at BCC.  I am a head of subject in the deparment I work for, and as such am involved in hiring of new employees for that subject only.  So yes, I am a supervisor, but in a very limited capacity. 

BCC has made mistakes in the past and, no doubt, will make more in the future.  The school administration and management, however, are aware of the serious nature of past mistakes and the damage this has done to the school's reputation.  They are committed to correcting those mistakes and ensuring they are not repeated.

Please understand, I do not represent BCC in any official capacity on this site.  I have shown myself to be a hard-working teacher, dedicated to my students and my profession, and because of this I am in a position to advise lower-level management about issues that need to be corrected, and suggest means by which this can be done.  My advice is not always followed but it is listened to.  I can't, however begin that process without a little more information.  That's all I'm trying to do.  In the end, I just want the school to be the best it can be.   

Again, Thai Me Up, I'm sorry you had this experience at my school.  If you are willing to provide me with just a little more information via PM, I can to take steps that will help ensure this doesn't happen to any teachers in the future.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 05:21:06 am by los_teacher »

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #299 on: April 10, 2007, 11:41:53 am »
los_teacher,
It is obvious you are a passionate teacher who also wants to improve his school's reputation both in reality and on this forum.  You have some guts to stick your neck out like that in an Old World country such as Thailand, and I'll credit you for that.  But in straddling the disparate worlds of teacher and administrator, you may become neither fish nor fowl.  The agendas of administrators and teachers are completely different, and that's why many of us [teachers] can't stand the interfering, baloney-peddling B.S. of administrators, Thai or otherwise.

If you want to find out who I am and the details of my refusal, you can just go through the pile of board-approved teachers who turned down job offers.  And if you want to address the problem and notify the Thai English head (was it EIP?) so that she doesn't do it again, you might say, "A talented experienced English teacher walked away from his job offer here because you jumped down his throat...please do not do same same again, okay mai?

Offline sabai_sabai

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #300 on: April 10, 2007, 12:40:26 pm »
I've stayed away from posting on this thread because I haven't worked for BCC, but I was also offered a job and turned down the offer.  It was a two years ago, when the last blacklist board was still new and it wasn't because of messageboard postings.

Before my interview, I had met two teachers who had worked for BCC, they were there well over five years ago now.  Both were in my opinion hard-working, professional, "real" teachers who were great to work with.  They both said that the administration at BCC treated them with contempt and had many other colorful adjectectives to describe a woman high up in the administration.  Even if things are tuly better there now, BCC's reputation will take a long time to be cleared. 

The people who interviewed me were nice enough, but asked a lot of questions about doing extra paperwork that lead me to believe that teachers there were complaining about it.  Some of the same sorts of questions were asked about classroom discipline, textbooks, etc.  It was like I was defending myself against some of the complaints they had with their other teachers.  Then I was told that I could meet with someone on the board.  Her entire demeanor was unpleasant and it seemed like she thought she was doing me a favor by talking to me.  I did not fill in the line on the application where it asks your religion, and it was the first thing she looked at.  She said to me in a contemptious tone, "So, you are not Christian, then."

I was then ushered into the office to give them copies of my passport and degree.  There were stacks of paper everywhere and the office was a mess.  The man handling my papers asked me five times if I had my work permit, and I told him five times that I had turned it in and showed him my receipt for my WP. He seemed generally pretty clueless and I had about four days left on my visa.  Somehow, I was not confident that I would have my visa handled as quickly as it needed to be.

Another school came through with an offer a few days later and I was getting two phone calls from BCC a day asking if I was going to take the job.  I did call them back and tell them no, (as I promised that I would tell them AS SOON as I knew) and I was practically hung up on.

What they may understand now at BCC is that the expat teachers talk to each other about schools, and bad news travels fast.  Even though I didn't take the job, if someone asks me about BCC, this is what I have to say as far as my experience with them.  It is going to take some time for the reputation of the school to change, and I'd be shocked if the attitudes of some of the Thai admin have made the 180 turn that needed to happen.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #301 on: April 10, 2007, 01:08:13 pm »
Thai Me Up,

Fair enough.  I will do exactly as you suggest.

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #302 on: April 10, 2007, 04:34:33 pm »
bkkman,

Why was there a visa raid at BCC last fall?  Did you sit next to John Mark Karr, or did you prefer to be "behind him"?
5555555

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #303 on: April 10, 2007, 04:40:03 pm »
1) You are misinformed.  There was no visa raid at BCC last fall, winter, spring, or summer even.

2)  John Mark Karr did not pass probation and was terminated by the school many weeks before his arrest by Bangkok Police.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 05:08:08 pm by los_teacher »

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #304 on: April 10, 2007, 04:44:40 pm »
He was a fugitive from justice in California.  NCIC tracks arrests, too.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #305 on: April 10, 2007, 04:59:14 pm »
There is no public access to the NCIC database.  Access is restricted to governmental agencies.  Only conviction records are accessible by the public - and even this is quite difficult. That is why all teachers in the USA must present an FBI report (NCIC record) before they can get a teacher's license.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 05:11:26 pm by los_teacher »

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #306 on: April 10, 2007, 10:15:59 pm »
sabai_sabai,
You and I belong to the same "no thanks" club.  The Christian question came up during my interview as well, but the board was adamant about knowing my background.  Though I'm not Christian, I had worked for the American Bible Society, an international Bible publisher, where I was never subjected to daily proselitizing, although all the key executives were all Protestant ministers.  I enjoyed working at the ABS very much.  Another poster mentioned that there is a daily 40 minute Christian sermon as part of the 7.15 - 16.00 workday.  I'm not sure if this is true or not, but if it is, this "activity" was omitted from my interviews as one of the daily requirements for working at BCC.

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #307 on: April 11, 2007, 04:16:04 am »
Again, inaccurate information is creeping into the thread.

1) The workday is 7:30-4:00 M-Th, and 7:30-3:15 F.   Arrival at 7:15 is suggested if you have homeroom responsibilities, but there are no repercussions whatsoever if you arrive at 7:29 and manage to get to your homeroom in time.

2)  There is no 40 minute daily sermon, not sure where that idea came from.  During the Thursday morning announcements there is a 2-minute sermon (only on Thursday).  There is a 1-hour Chrismas sermon.  There are two 30-minute revival sermons during one week of the year.  And if I recall there was something at the end of the year for about an hour.  This the extent of the religious activity of teachers at BCC.  This amounts to about 3 hours per year plus the 2 minutes every Thursday.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #308 on: April 12, 2007, 02:30:06 pm »
bkkman,  Why was there a visa raid at BCC last fall?  Did you sit next to John Mark Karr, or did you prefer to be "behind him"?
5555555
Thank you so much Thighlander. You make my case.
Name calling and slander are the only haunts left for those with nothing constructive to say.
You call me a homosexual associating with psychos and Thai Me Up has called me a 'stuck pig'.
Just because I honestly refute what I know to be misinformation and defend my school,
you fellows resort to ad hominen attacks rather than rational discussion.

This should be a message to all objective readers here as to the quality of the critics of BCC.
Most have never worked there and reveal their true character with filthy name calling.

Nearly all who have worked at the school are quite fair minded and even handed in their assessments.

Free speech ...... the truth shall emerge.

Peace



Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #309 on: April 12, 2007, 02:47:34 pm »
He's right  ^^^^

Quote from: bkkman
Name calling and slander are the only haunts left for those with nothing constructive to say.

Let's keep it friendly folks and stick to the issues  {-}

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #310 on: April 12, 2007, 10:29:06 pm »
bkkman:
"I simply do not believe you. I know scores of Thai teachers and Admins at BCC and they would NEVER be so rude to a person/prospective teacher they just met. Yelled ?  Hahaha. A Thai Admin would only yell if provoked by someone she knows well."

ROFLMAO.  The truth always manages to come out.  In BCC/Bkkman World, Thai teachers and Admins NEVER are rude to someone they just met; the yelling begins later once the Thai admin gets to know you.  Since the BCC board proposed that I would teach outside my subject area (English), I only wanted to clarify my teaching program with the Thai admin who sent me an email offer for an all-English program.  By inference Bkkman, was this the "provocation" that triggered the yelling and finger waving?

I didn't want to end up teaching with an English/science program.  Do you understand?  It seems you have learned to morally equivocate temper tantrums directed at you by Thai staff where you work.  I managed to work last year without yelling or being yelled at.  I believe employment and respect is a two-way street, and if you tolerate disrespect, then I only feel sorry for you.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 10:31:14 pm by Thai Me Up »

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #311 on: April 15, 2007, 03:40:21 pm »

I was then ushered into the office to give them copies of my passport and degree.  There were stacks of paper everywhere and the office was a mess.  The man handling my papers asked me five times if I had my work permit, and I told him five times that I had turned it in and showed him my receipt for my WP. He seemed generally pretty clueless and I had about four days left on my visa.  Somehow, I was not confident that I would have my visa handled as quickly as it needed to be.


Any of us who have spent more than an hour at this institution know exactly who this person is.  Every time I was in his office, it was an identical scenario; stacks of paperwork, other teachers in there with paperwork trouble getting the runaround.

Regarding Thai Me Up's comments about being yelled at before he signed his contract.  There is no doubt in my mind that this occurred.  Again, any of us that have spent time there know who this is.  I didn't like her from the first minute I met her.  She wil scream at you that "you don unerstan thai culcha," which is more than ironic.

I believe that these two employees should be terminated in order for BCC to come out of the HOS.  They should be doing something they are more qualified to do; like picking up condom wrappers at a short time motel.

Bkkman, if you have been there three years; you have probably stabbed more people in the back than Charlie Manson ever dreamed of.  Which is how it works at BCC.  There is no mentoring program; they simply hire someone else.  I believe this is how they managed to hire Karr.  They hire so many people; they do not check references.  They didn't check any of mine, even though they were more than welcome.  Time magazine stated that BCC was known for incredibly high turnowver of its foreign staff.

Since this is a teacher's forum; let me just state a few things that will suprise you if you have any experience at all teaching in the West  (most BCC teachers DO NOT).  Students run the corridors like soi dogs, with total disregard for adults.  Also, students are constantly in the already crowded, teacher's workroom.  I also witnessed foreign staff engaging in behavior that I guarantee you 100%, would have landed them on the evening news in the US.  You will also have about 6 students in every class that belong in Special Education classes.  With the language barrier, it is often more difficult to detect various forms of retardation, but you will figure it out.  I recall preping the students for a quiz by giving them all of the questions in advance.  Some students still managed to get 2 out of 20 correct.  We then went over the papers as a class, and everyone was required to correct their errors.  The exact same quiz (taken from the illegally copied workbooks) was given the next day.  Guess what?  There were still a handful of 2's and 3's.  I believe that is about a B, at BCC.

I would also like to inform prospective teachers that during your first year, the health insurance isn't very good.  If you are hit by a car; you will be covered.  But, if you are sick with other conditions; you will be expected to pay for your hospital bill out of your pocket and wait for the "paperwork" (see above) and "investigation" to be completed before you get a 60-70% reimbursement 2 months later.  So I hope that you have a few hundred thousand Thb laying around, just in case.

So, if you want to be treated like a doormat for 53,000 Thb per month in the most expensive area of Thailand--be my guess.  Just consider how this will effect your future job prospects.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 03:46:13 pm by Thighlander »

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #312 on: April 16, 2007, 05:38:58 am »
There is so much slander, misinformation, half-truths, and outright lies in the above post that it would take two pages for a proper rebuttal.  Forget about it. 

Suffice it to say that there are 8 people who worked at BCC is the 2006-2007 academic year who took the time to post positively about their experiences.  The were 0 people who worked at BCC in the 2006-2007 academic year who took the time to post negatively about their experiences.  I'm not sure when Thighlander worked at BCC so that zero could turn to a one. 

Offline Thai Me Up

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #313 on: April 16, 2007, 07:08:13 am »
I don't see slander and lies, just Thighlander's first-hand knowledge of a HOS employer.  los_teacher, maybe you don't need to moderate and attempt to unravel every teacher's experience in this thread.  I think sam_vines made an excellent suggestion when he recommended BCC discontinue garnishing four months of wages at 5,000/month.  When the BCC board explained this "deposit" to me, I immediately thought, what is BCC going to do to me that I will want to flee this institution?  Do you think you could recommend to BCC management that BCC discontinue this practice?

Offline los_teacher

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #314 on: April 16, 2007, 08:17:40 am »
Despite TEFLWatch having helped me to recoup 35,000 Bt from a previous position at another school, I will temporarily discontinue posting at this site. 

It saddens me to see attempts to discredit based on rumor, misinformation, and obselete information.  With regards to BCC I stand by the claim in my previous post.  Please review the entirety of this thread and one or two other BCC-related threads and you will find that EVERY post from teachers working at BCC in the last year is positive (with the possible exception of Thighlander, we still don't know when he worked at BCC).  Evidently 100% positive experience from CURRENT employees of BCC under PRESENT conditions counts for little or nothing.  If this is true then it is impossible for the school to receive fair treatment here. 

I will therefore TMU's advice and discontinue posting for the time being.  This is unfortunate as teachers should be able to come to this site to find current and relevant information about schools when making their employment decisions.  As it stands this is simply not the case.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 10:05:03 am by los_teacher »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #315 on: April 16, 2007, 10:30:34 am »
I have no personal gripe with BCC, I freely admit I find the 20K ransom money to be an anathema, however, if people choose to accept it then so be it. In reality it is the boards way of saving face for the clusterfucks they made in recruitment in the past, they seem to have improved their recruitment policy and one would hope that the ransom would therefore be dropped in the foreseeable future. If that were to happen then I would hope that BCC could be out of the HoS.

I do feel that Los_Teacher does have a very salient point when he points out that the only posts by current teachers (possibly with thaighlander as an exception) have been positive, and seemingly the gripes are only coming from those bitten in the past.

Many people castigated Namtok/Pibthong/canemyass for constantly griping about an incident that was in the past, I feel the same also should hold true regarding any school. Unless the gripe is up to date then does it really have a place on this board? What happened in the last academic year to me is relevant what happened before that whilst very often still fresh in some peoples minds is hardly relevant. Holding grudges kills the soul, and very rarely has any form of positive effect.

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #316 on: April 16, 2007, 05:32:53 pm »
How about it Thighlander, when were you at BCC? 

I apologise if you have already stated - I have read all the posts on this thread, I just don't recall that information and haven't the time to go back and check every post!

 {-} {-}

Offline freedom fighter

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #317 on: April 17, 2007, 07:16:46 am »
Well, well, well.

I have just spent many long hours reading these posts and, having absorbed the salient information, feel that I am now in a position to offer up my unqualified, unbiased, Solomonic judgement.

It is clear to see that BCC has produced mixed levels of service to it's teachers.  Some teachers are quite clearly loyal to the school and that must surely be counted to its credit.  However, the number of posters and amount of complaints that have been levelled against this school cannot easilly be dismissed. 

It is clear that the school has not been ethical with some of its practices and its treatment of staff.  If you, the reader, wish to work for this school I suggest you 'roll the dice' and take your chances; who knows, you might be one of the luckier ones who gets good treatment there.

It is said that a reputation is as made of glass, one small crack and it is rendered useless.  BCC would do well to remember this in future.  Whilst there have been many positive posts in defence of the school, the negatives are the ones that will remain in the minds of the readers. 

If a man lies to one person but speaks truthfully to nine others is he a truthful man, as claimed by the nine, or is he a liar, as contended by the one?  Whether you lie once or whether you mistreat your staff once, it is this action that will brand you. 

I, for one, have no sympathy for a school that alters contracts or manipulates clauses to avoid payments, whether it be lawful or not, it is UNETHICAL and IMMORAL!  For these reasons alone I condemn BCC to wallow in the recruitment abyss that is THE HALL OF SHAME where they shall find no rest for a period of not less than twelve months!  (hammer drops)  Case dismissed.

Judge Freedom Fighter

Offline docendo_discimus

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #318 on: April 17, 2007, 11:49:39 am »
los_teacher, I am not sure who you are, but I am guessing we were in the same office this year. I agree with everything you have said here. Thank you for being so objective and offering accurate information.

Look,
I have taught in the West. I am fully qualified.
I passed my FBI background checks and worked in the US public school system. It was there I met with more rude, back-stabbing and insolent behavior than felt I wanted to deal with. I have worked in Europe as a university lecturer and now I'm in Thailand. I am neither a pervert nor a criminal. I just wanted to learn more about the world and different cultures.

I have clearly stated what I have experienced at BCC, and how I felt about it. I don't think the administration is flawless, but I have never felt taken advantage of or grossly mistreated. To be quite honest, I have been more offended by some of the things written above than I ever have been by any "rude" Thai teacher. Some of the comments are downright nasty and unnecessary.

As for the 20,000 Baht deposit, everyone gets it back, with interest, unless they just take off without notice. I am happy to have that money in savings. I don't view it as ransom, many of us don't have problem with it.
I feel I made the right decision in returning to BCC. I like my students and quite a few were motivated to make an effort. I am looking forward to working with them again in the new school year. Oh and I made the decision to return long before I heard of the raise.

It's clear some people are unhappy with BCC and they are entitled to their opinions, but to question the judgment, qualifications or integrity of teachers, who are committed to getting their programs revamped and running smoothly-- People who see things improving and want to stay the course -- is just despicable.


Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #319 on: April 22, 2007, 05:57:19 pm »
How about it Thighlander, when were you at BCC? 

 {-} {-}

I was there when: the student's behavior was horrible, the foreign teacher's behavior was worse, and the Thai admin's yet still worse.  It was when they didn't supply toilet paper.  Before John Karr, but after they had fired another pedophile.  It was when the free lunch was disgusting.  Visa/WP paperwork was a huge headache.  The traffic was awful, and it was hotter than hell.  Also, some terminated teachers were threatened with deportation if they posted about the school.  There was absolutely no mentoring program for new teachers; they were simply yelled at, terminated, and replaced.  There was a cool farang administrator, who was great at PR.  Unfortunately, the cleaning ladies had more clout with the Thai Admins.

Does that narrow it down for you?

« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 05:58:30 pm by Thighlander »

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #320 on: April 27, 2007, 05:10:41 pm »
We haven't heard from JJ in a long time.  Is he still vacationing at Neverland Ranch?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 06:43:20 pm by Nemesis »

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #321 on: May 12, 2007, 07:40:31 pm »
I say that there is a shortage of teachers. We have illustrious Bangkok Christian College advertising for teachers on May 9th, 2007. I was interviewed here once last year by an American who told me to come in "tomorrow" to meet the board. Lo and behold, he phoned me the next morning to say that the female had hired a teacher. I feel myself lucky!

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #322 on: May 18, 2007, 09:33:27 pm »
I was told there was a very long post criticizing BCC made
here on May 10th.
But it does not seem to be here now.
Can anyone tell me what happened to it or where I can find it ?
Thanks

Offline hero

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #323 on: May 19, 2007, 12:08:16 pm »
I don't know.  By the way, there is nothing in the recycle bin either.  There was a post deleted on May 10th, but it was a sather shambolid attempt to slag off colleagues and unrelated to BCC.

Hero

Offline Thighlander

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #324 on: May 19, 2007, 12:47:37 pm »
Bkkman,

Could you please tell us what happened to JJ.  After all, he was the PR spokesman for the entire school year.  We can't go to the website, as BCC does not maintain information on its staff.  I guess turnover is just to rapid.

Offline bkkman

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #325 on: May 19, 2007, 01:20:28 pm »
TH,
I do not know who JJ is.
Sorry


Offline Andy

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Re: Bangkok Christian College
« Reply #326 on: May 20, 2007, 10:15:18 pm »
All good threads must come to an end. This thread is very informative as a historical thread on events at BCC. We have opened a new thread to talk about current issues at BCC.

http://www.teflwatch.org/forum/index.php/topic,1305.0.html


 

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