Topic: Johnson, the King and Jazz

[Nemesis]

http://www.nea.gov/about/NEARTS/11-2006vol2/11jazz4.html

This is an interview from famous Jazz musician Dave Brubeck

I'll tell you a funny story. I was outside here in my vegetable garden, working on the tomatoes, and somebody said, "Dave, you've got a phone call, you'd better come in." I came in, and it was one of the assistants to President Johnson, saying, "Dave, will you come to Thailand - immediately?" And I said "Why?" "Well, we're in a little trouble here with the King." I asked, "Why?" "Well, even when President Johnson is seated, he's still taller than the King, and nobody is supposed to ever be above the King. Well, we worked out a way around that, but President Johnson crossed his leg and his shoe pointed at the King. There's nothing worse that he could have done. We know that the King likes jazz, and we thought maybe we could make up for it this way." [Laughing.] I said, "Well, I've got jobs here, I can't come." They said, "Well, can you think of somebody?" I said, "Well, I think Stan Getz is available." "Well," they said, "the King would like that." So Stan Getz went instead. What I'm trying to say is that there were people in the White House that knew certain situations where the way out might be jazz.

At least we now know why the King played with so many Jazz legends.

[bomha]

Imagine that, a website about teaching (everywhere, including Thailand), and we can tell stories about the King and I.

I am shocked that president Johnson was not properly advised by his diplomacy experts on proper etiquette.  His diplomatic ministry must have had an entire department of such protocol advisors. 

[herrkutz]

I am amazed.

Are you actually aware of the His Majesty the Kings position in Thai society and the respect he commands from all Thais ?

The comment's made could be considered an insult to His Majesty the King with dire repercussions on the posters if they are found and the blocking of this site also.

Having lived here for some 16 years I am more than aware of the expectations  of Thai society regarding the monarchy.recall if you will or can please some of the repercussions on Thais and foreigners,vis a vis the results of slighting the monarchy here in Thailand by Thais as well as foreigners.

I suggest that the moderators and indeed the posters  should delve a little deeper into the mysteries of Thai culture and its expectations from foreigners so as not to cause offence and possible "Les Majeste" charges to be laid against either ill informed or disrespectful posters to the detriment of said posters and indeed this site.

I was originally under the impression this was a site dedicated to the teaching profession here in Thailand and also around the world.

Methinks the direction is being lost due to possibly lack of knowledge by the people concerned in posting and moderating.with the result that we are now insulting our hosts here in Thailand.

[Nemesis]

Are you actually aware of the His Majesty the Kings position in Thai society and the respect he commands from all Thais ?

Yes I am, but I see one problem in your use of all Thais. That is incorrect. Sweeping generalizations are never good.

The comment's made could be considered an insult to His Majesty the King with dire repercussions on the posters if they are found and the blocking of this site also.

Saying that a sitting US President committed several cultural faux pas and then tired to fix it by introducing the king to several of the best Jazz musicians who later then collaborated on several Jazz works with him is an insult? If anything I would consider it a compliment. I am going to keep this up, because we don't need to be afraid.

In fact, to hear the great Jazz music that was put out, visit this site:
http://kanchanapisek.or.th/royal-music/index.en.html

I was originally under the impression this was a site dedicated to the teaching profession here in Thailand and also around the world.

Discussions about moderation should be discussed in the troubleshooting room. This site is dedicated to teaching anywhere in the world. Once we start saying that one person is protected from discussion, to be fair we need to protect everyone from any kind of discussion. And why make special provisions for one leader? What's next? No posting about chinese leadership? No posting about George Bush? No posting about Mugabe? I suggest you open a thread in the Troubleshooting Room to discuss this if you would like to propose it as a rule for the board.

[Thai Me Up]

http://www.nea.gov/about/NEARTS/11-2006vol2/11jazz4.html

At least we now know why the King played with so many Jazz legends.

You're completely off base with this sarcastic comment.  I recommend you consider herrkutz's warning.  Posting such a thread can create a backlash against ALL foreign teachers in Thailand, so stop thinking like the ugly American and think of the negative impact against falang teachers who are working in this country.

[Topper]

Just for Herrkutz, TMU I'll post the quote from the article.  That way rather than making comments about things before reading, you can actually comment on the topic of the discussion.

The is quoted from the National Endowment of the Arts - A US organization that is committed to supporting and recognizing significant American artists.

"I'll tell you a funny story. I was outside here in my vegetable garden, working on the tomatoes, and somebody said, "Dave, you've got a phone call, you'd better come in." I came in, and it was one of the assistants to President Johnson, saying, "Dave, will you come to Thailand - immediately?" And I said "Why?" "Well, we're in a little trouble here with the King." I asked, "Why?" "Well, even when President Johnson is seated, he's still taller than the King, and nobody is supposed to ever be above the King. Well, we worked out a way around that, but President Johnson crossed his leg and his shoe pointed at the King. There's nothing worse that he could have done. We know that the King likes jazz, and we thought maybe we could make up for it this way." [Laughing.] I said, "Well, I've got jobs here, I can't come." They said, "Well, can you think of somebody?" I said, "Well, I think Stan Getz is available." "Well," they said, "the King would like that." So Stan Getz went instead. What I'm trying to say is that there were people in the White House that knew certain situations where the way out might be jazz."

So TMU could you explain the "sarcastic" comment.  To me the comment was made to point out the impolite behavior of an American president, not to find fault with the king.   

TMU...how about next time saying something like ....."I think the comment could be taken as sarcastic because....." rather than just making a comment with no explanation. 

If you've got the balls to make a comment then have the balls to make a statement explaining the comment.  Herrkutz did....why didn't you?

[Nemesis]

Yeah and anyone studying LBJ would find this very humorous,I can just see LBJ doing his best not to offend the king but then messing up at every turn. At least it wasn't George Bush I, the I barf in other leader laps president or Gerald Ford, the I trip over my own feet so watch out president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson

Johnson was renowned for his domineering personality and the "Johnson treatment," his arm-twisting of powerful politicians.

[herrkutz]

Very interesting responses regarding the O.P. Topper you have been here long enough to understand the sentiments of the Thais regarding the monarchy,and I presume you are aware of the way that Thais consider such delicate matters. There is no politcal correctness no etiquitte here unlike the West and I reiterate that when I address Nemesis too.


Nemesis I appreciate your comments, however coming as you do from a republic raised in the the U.S.A. do you really understand nay appreciate the situation here. You state that I am making a generalisation comment.There is no politcal correctness no etiquette here as we understand it in western democracies unlike the West

Yes I am making a sweeping generalisation .I happen live and work here and have done for many years,possibly,I and others like me may be somewhat better informed than you sir regarding the current feelings in Thailand

It's totally unlike the U.S. feelings run high regarding the attitude of foreigners (farangs or kaks and chocolates) as to their perceived attitude to the monarchy, and indeed to Thais in general.

The comments in brackets are Thai expressions which in the west would no doubt be regarded as offensive to the ethnic people concerned,however this is Thailand.

As has already been stated the possibility of a backlash is ever imminent more so now when we see the current xenophobia and blatant racism  of some sections of Thai politicians with an election looming. Farang and general foreigner bashing is a cheap vote buying tactic for the more rabid and indeed vocal elements contesting the upcoming general election.

I speak with some confidence in that area as my wifes family are indeed well connected and can and indeed do confirm my comments, they are also of the opinion all will be well in the long term,however the short term could be a rocky ride for we foreigners.

The post should stand and indeed remain open for debate by doing that a true picture should appear regarding the whole respect for the monarchy scenario to hopefully all our benefits. 

Bugger L.B.J and George Bush,the art of diplomatic protocol and behaviour do not apply to the man and women in the street here in Thailand ,To put it in a nutshell they would not understand the reasoning or the logic of said jargon.

His Majesty the King is regarded as a God and republican style claptrap will not change a thing for the Thais,they are right we are wrong.

Possibly if you research the events and the people turnout for the kings 60th anniversary on the throne and indeed the public outpouring of concern regarding his latest hospital stay you may well begin to understand what I and others are stating,

His majesty the King is Thailand and indeed the stabilising factor as has been proven over many the many years of his reign.

I am not tryIng to teach you to sick eggs but to look at the scene as it really is .We may not understand it but it works.
 

[bomha]

Tempest in a teapot, or as a certain Brit once said, much ado about nothing.  HMTKing loves jazz; we all know that.  He said Himself last year that He has never filed a lese majeste suit against anybody.  He is not a God.  Buddhism does not believe in the existence of a God.  HMTKing is highly revered, rightly so.  Not a God, not at all.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis I appreciate your comments, however coming as you do from a republic raised in the the U.S.A. do you really understand nay appreciate the situation here. You state that I am making a generalisation comment.There is no politcal correctness no etiquette here as we understand it in western democracies unlike the West

I lived in Thailand from January of 2001 until August 1st of 2007. That's 6 1/2, i can hardly say I know everything in Thailand, but I think I do appreciate the situation and understand it as well as any farang with the same amount of time in Thailand.

Yes I am making a sweeping generalisation .I happen live and work here and have done for many years,possibly,I and others like me may be somewhat better informed than you sir regarding the current feelings in Thailand

You might be more informed than I am. But I don't think that I should have my opinions completely discounted just because I only lived and worked in Thailand for 6 1/2 years.

It's totally unlike the U.S. feelings run high regarding the attitude of foreigners (farangs or kaks and chocolates) as to their perceived attitude to the monarchy, and indeed to Thais in general.

The comments in brackets are Thai expressions which in the west would no doubt be regarded as offensive to the ethnic people concerned,however this is Thailand.

I know that they mean.

As has already been stated the possibility of a backlash is ever imminent more so now when we see the current xenophobia and blatant racism  of some sections of Thai politicians with an election looming. Farang and general foreigner bashing is a cheap vote buying tactic for the more rabid and indeed vocal elements contesting the upcoming general election.

Yes that is happening, but unfortunately that's a choice people who live in Thailand are making. I lived with my choice and when I realized that I had to take a choice between hypocrisy or doing the right thing, I chose to do the right thing for me and my family. I left Thailand.

Bugger L.B.J and George Bush,the art of diplomatic protocol and behaviour do not apply to the man and women in the street here in Thailand ,To put it in a nutshell they would not understand the reasoning or the logic of said jargon.

This site is not for Thai people alone. This is an international site. I guess I could make a blanket rule that no one is allowed to mention anyone on this forum, no school name, no poster name, not anything, but that would sure make for a worthless site, now wouldn't it?

His Majesty the King is regarded as a God and republican style claptrap will not change a thing for the Thais,they are right we are wrong.

I hope you are not saying that Thai people are right and we are wrong. Please don't tell me that you have bought into that.

Because i am here to say that he is not a god, in my opinion, and is not regarded as a god by all Thai people. That is utter and complete nonsense. Thai Christians and Thai Muslims DO NOT consider him to be a god and they make up nearly 6% of the population. Millions of Thai people do not consider him to be a god.

Possibly if you research the events and the people turnout for the kings 60th anniversary on the throne and indeed the public outpouring of concern regarding his latest hospital stay you may well begin to understand what I and others are stating,

I was there for the 60th Anniversary. I know the outpouring, but it only caused me to question things. If people are only allowed to say they love someone, then how can it be known if they really love? Those that don't say they love the king are jailed. Thank goodness that the king is a very wise man. I respect him and I understand what he is trying to say. In 2005, he stated that he wanted people to have the right to criticize him if he was wrong. He understands that his legacy can only be the very best if people have the right to view it any way they like.

What else do you expect from a Jazz afficionado and composer.

And I would hope that you would check out the link in original post if you really would like to expand your understanding. For me, many things made sense and could probably explain so many things that wouldn't quite be appropriate on a teaching forum.

His majesty the King is Thailand and indeed the stabilising factor as has been proven over many the many years of his reign.

It would seem if he really is such an important for Thais that they would like to know as much as they can about him. I know when i fall in love, I want to know everything about the person, I want to get to know them better. At least I do with my God. I want to know Him more and more. Are you saying that Thai people don't want to get to know everything about their king? How can you love someone if you don't want to know them?

I understand everything you say, Herrkutz, but it seems like you still don't understand things. It's the Thailand paradox. The more you learn about Thailand, the less you realize you understand it. I thought I knew a lot more about Thailand after 6 months in Thailand than I actually understood after being there 6 1/2 years.

 

[herrkutz]

A fair response Nemesis .Apologies for the presumption you were not actually all that aware of the workings of the Thai mind and indeed familiar with the country and its customs.

I certainly did not discount your opinions I stated that I was at variance with you on some points.I certainly do not regard myself as more informed than you as your experiences are different to mine therefore a common consensus of opinion may be difficult to reach for the pair of us or however many people may become embroiled in this discussion..

Regarding the language use in brackets, those terms were put there as an information guide as to what the terms meant based upon the theme that you and others may not have been aware of the terms.

So you left Thailand,me I have never run from problems much preferring to try to chip away at the problems and hopefully along with many other start to improve peoples lives.My wifes family did just that in 1932 here in Thailand !! You did quote "the right thing for my family" .Fine I am doing the right thing for my family  have never compromised my principles yet,however there may yet be a first time !!

I never stated nor implied that this site was for the Thai people alone I am fully aware the site is world wide in its appeal.democracy is what it is all about and free speech with no shackles apart from common decency and true facts rather than suppositions or circumstantial evidence

You know that the Thais are always right in their views and the rest of the world is wrong.How many times did you hear the expression "Ah we are different we are Thai " whilst resident in Thailand ? You are as well aware as I am that there is no analytical thought process amongst the Thais,either uneducated or educated,schooling is indoctrination not education 

Thais genuinely love their king as you well know I agree the king does not pursue his critics but others do to satisfy their own ends, agreed ?

I dispute the fact of millions of Thai do not consider him a god.Indeed they do come up country and meet the locals see what they think.Agreed Muslims ,Christians in general do not all agree with the god ethic however they are indeed  minority groups. The comments that you and Bohma make are like mine ,personal opinions expressed as we see other peoples opinions

The last comment.Yes I am still learning every day about Thailand and life too,our whole life is a living and learning experience.

I rest my case sir.

I await the valued and indeed erudite response from our honourable defence counsel in this matter.

[wangsuda]

I will throw my two cents in and not be politically correct about it. This is a site hosted in AMERICA and following US laws. It does not have to kowtow to ANYONE outside US territory. If a lively and non offensive discussion is started about someone who likes jazz, then so be it. If less than one percent of the world's population find some reason that quoting historical facts available in Thailand is not to their liking, then they can surf somewhere else. Personally, there is nothing in the aforementioned posts that would cause offense to anyone in the Royal Family. The posts would only cause offense to ignorant politicians looking for political gain among the unwashed. So I guess I just offended the PPP. Good thing the Thai Ministry of Technology can't bust through a proxy.

[Nemesis]

I dispute the fact of millions of Thai do not consider him a god.Indeed they do come up country and meet the locals see what they think.Agreed Muslims ,Christians in general do not all agree with the god ethic however they are indeed  minority groups. The comments that you and Bohma make are like mine ,personal opinions expressed as we see other peoples opinions

I worded it to make the most impact. 65 million times by 6% is roughly 4 million. That more than one million and its plural.  

[herrkutz]

Just to throw another bone in the ring for we dogs to scrap over I read Wangsudas post and have come to the conclusion that it is a case of "America Rules Here".

I love the Gun Hoo comment" If it offends the P.P.P. that this forum does not have to Kow Towto any-one outside U.S territory" followed by innuendo that describes the Thais as "the great unwashed".

Indeed nice to see that a poster from another forum and a mod to boot in this forum has total disregard for his host country,that is of course if he or she actually lives here.

The pose struck in wangsudas posting indicates that America is correct and indeed the rest of the world wrong.

Perchance that highlights the success of American foreign policy around the world at this moment in time ?

Nemesis ,thank you for clarifying your position regarding numbers I also followed that road and I think we probably both agree?

" There are lies,dammed lies and statistics"

[Nemesis]

Enough said, if you want to complain about this thread or policies that don't kowtow to a military junta, take it to Troubleshooting. If you want to talk about Johnson, Jazz or the king(not Elvis) then keep it here.