Topic: Scary Story

[Mods-Rockers]

Hearsay warning!

Was chatting with a friend the other day, turns out he was chatting with an old friend of his a few weeks ago. This guy is the farang coordinator at some semi international school near victory monument.

Turns out that, and this is at best hearsay possibly second hand hearsay at that, around last Dec, during the MOE crackdown on dodgy paper, his school was visited. They turned up one teacher there with a KS rd degree but a gen CELTA. This guy was told that the MOE would return in 7 days with the Immi police and that if he was still in Thailand things could turn nasty, needless to say he scarpered. This friend of a friend had also heard of at least 3 others getting the same treatment, 2 at another semi international school and one at Mahidol PC collage.

I try to keep my ear to the ground but I had not heard anything about this before. Maybe its just a rumour, maybe there is an element of truth in there somewhere. I know that I tried to contact an old colleague a few weeks back, this guy was a fairly good teacher but had some pretty dodgy paper, anyway the phone was answered by a Thai who said she had just taken the phone number recently, so it appears that the guy has also left Thailand.

Has anyone else heard similar stories or know anyone who this has happened to?

[bomha]

That hearsay is not so scary.  Fake degrees are scary.  If a mate with dodgy papers does a runner, I assume it is because the authorities or the school figured out that his papers were dodgy. 

I am pro-teacher, but I have limited tolerance for liars and fakes who pretend to be teachers.  Standards here are low enough without having public school early leavers pretending they finished uni.

My mate has real paper (BA, CELTA, and a CV) but during the crackdown of John Mark Karr, he just stopped applying for jobs, because he knew that even with legitimate qualifications, his chances of getting a work permit (for part time) were nil.

It is not scary that brickies with false degrees get run out of Thailand.  In fact, unless that brickie is the best teacher south of Mae Sai, it is good that he gets run out.

[Mods-Rockers]

Bomha, you will get no argument from me regarding those that deliberately go out and get false paper. however there are some good paperless teachers around, if they can find work with no paper then good luck to them, but what about when they are forced by employers to get papered up by any means, remember the two who were imprisoned last year? There are many stories of schools making unpapered teachers visit KS rd or even providing the false paper themselves. However the brickie who buys paper just to fund his hedonistic extended holiday does not find my sympathy.

[Topper]

There are many stories of schools making unpapered teachers visit KS rd or even providing the false paper themselves. However the brickie who buys paper just to fund his hedonistic extended holiday does not find my sympathy.

This is the one that absolutely, completely pisses me off.

I asked one teacher why he acted so unprofessional...his response was "This isn't reality. Only America is real to me."  I was so amazed by his response that all I could do is shake my head.

[sabai_sabai]

People with fake degrees do hurt the reputations of the professional teachers in Thailand.  Before the crackdown, it was comfortable enough for some of those teachers with fakes to work in international schools and some even went out and got a few fake masters degrees to get a raise out of it. These people are the ones that really got the MOE to crackdown.  (I have never read in the news that JMK had fakes; I think his degree was real.) That's a bit different than working in an upcountry school that can't afford to pay a salary that would attract a person with credentials. Those teachers didn't attract the attention. 

Anyone can still go to Khao San Road and buy a fake.  Nobody has heard of those shops getting raided and they are very easy to find.  Wouldn't it be easier to make the fakes harder to get? 

I don't believe that these shops stay open just because they are bribing the right people.  The MOE made some serious money on the schools that they raided and it's completely possible that they will happen again.  I worked at a school that was raided and all of the foreign teachers were taken in.  (No, I'm not going to say which, not even in a PM.)

They came in at the beginning of the school year and filmed the teachers in their classrooms.  They would not allow anyone to leave the campus and the kids saw us taken away.  We were brought in to immigration detention (but never put in a cell and never handcuffed) and kept there for nine hours.  This is not an experience that any teacher wants, real degree or not.

No school is able to follow the laws 100% to employ teachers, especially at the beginning of the year. Teachers working on tourist visas until they were able to go out of the country and get a non-b, teachers that had work permits that were not finished being processed by labor yet (and, yes, that is a problem.) Nobody was deported and the school paid the fines for these offenses and I can only make a reasonable guess that some serious tea money was paid to keep things nice and a few people in the country.  Immigration and the MOE have plenty of incentive to do these raids.

[Topper]

In my small experience, the usual reason a school is raided is because a teacher or parent calls it in to the MOE or Immi.  I know personally of two schools that got raided and both times it was due to a disgruntled teacher (one farang, one Filipino) calling in and "reporting" the situation. 

[certified]

What will happen if a real qualified teacher, (let's just say someone who can legally teach in their own country) is arrested twice by the MOE, or Ministry of Labor dragnet, and is imprisoned for 3 months? Thailand has got to be the ONLY coutry in the world where working as a legit teacher, you are also commiting a crime. What in the world is going on with these people?
 :oCould you imagine a Thai teacher, fully accredited, being arrested in merry old England by the English immigration police, because the English Ministry of Education is still processing her papers. Could you imagine the English hauling this poor woman to jail, handcuffing her, fingerprinting her, video taping her, jailing her, railroading her to the nearest courthouse, and subjecting her to fines, deportation, and possibly imprisonment?

[Topper]

What will happen if a real qualified teacher, (let's just say someone who can legally teach in their own country) is arrested twice by the MOE, or Ministry of Labor dragnet, and is imprisoned for 3 months? Thailand has got to be the ONLY coutry in the world where working as a legit teacher, you are also commiting a crime. What in the world is going on with these people?
 :oCould you imagine a Thai teacher, fully accredited, being arrested in merry old England by the English immigration police, because the English Ministry of Education is still processing her papers. Could you imagine the English hauling this poor woman to jail, handcuffing her, fingerprinting her, video taping her, jailing her, railroading her to the nearest courthouse, and subjecting her to fines, deportation, and possibly imprisonment?

How many "legit" teachers do you know have been arrested?  Just because I have taught in my home country doesn't mean I would risk working without a WP.  People who work without a WP are just plain stupid.  Period.  I don't care if they have a PhD in whatever, working without a WP is taking a calculated risk at best and potential incarceration at worst.  Let me repeat this ...if you are working without a WP, then you are risking a stay at immi's 5 star hotel.

They don't need to be arrested twice if they are working illegally...they can be detained by the immi police until they are deported, the very first time.

Yes, I can very well imagine western countries doing that if the person, regardless of their degrees, qualifications, etc is working illegally.  In most countries, if you're an alien, you have to have a work permit, green card, etc to be legally employed. 

Are you suggesting that every teacher, the world over should be allowed to bypass the laws governing foreigners working in the country just because they're aliens?

[RobRoy]

What will happen if a real qualified teacher, (let's just say someone who can legally teach in their own country) is arrested twice by the MOE, or Ministry of Labor dragnet, and is imprisoned for 3 months?

I would think that if a person is popped twice for his ignorance the person, no matter how legit, probably is too intellectually challenged to be a good teacher anyways.

[Mods-Rockers]

Please confirm that you are not in any way employed as a teacher! I cannot for the life of me imagine a teacher coming up with such a stupid statement as this:

What will happen if a real qualified teacher, (let's just say someone who can legally teach in their own country) is arrested twice by the MOE, or Ministry of Labor dragnet, and is imprisoned for 3 months? Thailand has got to be the ONLY coutry in the world where working as a legit teacher, you are also commiting a crime.

If you are employed as a ‘legit’ teacher in any coutry [sic] then you will have all the correct paperwork, in the case of the coutry [sic] called Thailand that would entail having the correct visa and also having a work permit. You cannot be ‘legit’ without those. The only way you could be commiting [sic] a crime in these circumstances would be if the crime was outside the areas covered by the visa/WP..

Oh BTW, the wording, syntax and semantics used in the following; “Thailand has got to be the ONLY coutry in the world where working as a legit teacher, you are also commiting a crime. ” Appear to be that used when making a statement, why then if you claim to be a teacher did you end a statement with three question marks? Seems a tad illogical to me! Maybe you really have been certified!

[RobRoy]

Please confirm that you are not in any way employed as a teacher! I cannot for the life of me imagine a teacher coming up with such a stupid statement as this:

Oh ye of little imagination!!!  How long have you been a member here?   

[certified]

If you're hired by a new school, many want you to be on probation for 3 months before they send your paperwork to get a work permit. That's happening to all the teachers at the international  school where I work. During this 3 month period, even though these teachers have a non b, they still are working illegally.
 
Rob Roy, being popped, once, twice, or three times is more bad luck than a person making bad choices. Rob, if you are walking in a good neighborhood, and you get sucker punched twice, this makes you an unsuspected victim, not an idiot who should be run off the street. Try showing a bit more understanding to posters who are concerned about
those who have suffered from this unusual system.

Mods, my response to you is that you enjoy insulting and berating posters who you don't know, as if you have some of out of control, raging personality disorder. May I suggest a more western approach, when you want to insult another man, try doing it man to man. You act like a drunk full of false courage. This way what ever problem you intend to create between yourself and the one you insult, you will also have a healthy, fair closure to your problem.

Topper, I know 3 people that it happened to. They had a non b, but were waiting for their paperwork to be completed by the MOE. A fired teacher hired a lawyer to report them to the Ministry of Labor, and those teachers who had submitted everything weeks before went to jail. Now isn't it possible that one of the three, starting at a new school could have this happen again sometime? I'm sure that they are very concerned about the possibilty.

[Topper]

create between yourself and the one you insult, you will also have a healthy, fair closure to your problem.

Topper, I know 3 people that it happened to. They had a non b, but were waiting for their paperwork to be completed by the MOE. A fired teacher hired a lawyer to report them to the Ministry of Labor, and those teachers who had submitted everything weeks before went to jail. Now isn't it possible that one of the three, starting at a new school could have this happen again sometime? I'm sure that they are very concerned about the possibilty.

A fired teacher had the school reported to the MOE.  Wow, did this teacher even think about the other teachers there?  Not only were the teachers arrested, but they were arrested directly due to another teacher's actions.  I hope the three teachers had a chat with the teacher and explained their obvious anger to the teacher.

Yes, I understand the probation thing.  My school practices it.  I really don't like it, and remind my boss on occasion that not only is the teacher at risk, but the school is as well.  Its a calculated risk, at best and something thats our duty as teachers to remind management about.

[Mods-Rockers]

If you're hired by a new school, many want you to be on probation for 3 months before they send your paperwork to get a work permit. That's happening to all the teachers at the international  school where I work. During this 3 month period, even though these teachers have a non b, they still are working illegally.

Precisely, and this calls the lie in your statement that; “Thailand has got to be the ONLY coutry in the world where working as a legit teacher, you are also commiting a crime.” If you are foolish enough to accept a contract that imposes a 3 month wait for WP to be processed, then you are foolish enough to work illegally for 3 months and must then take the consequences!

Rob, if you are walking in a good neighborhood, and you get sucker punched twice, this makes you an unsuspected victim, not an idiot who should be run off the street. Try showing a bit more understanding to posters who are concerned about those who have suffered from this unusual system.

your choice of metaphor is hardly well thought out; a good neighborhood would tend to imply a good school, and as such a good school, administratively would secure all the correct paperwork with utmost haste, a good school would not impose a 3 month illegal work period on new staff. 

Rob Roy, being popped, once, twice, or three times is more bad luck than a person making bad choices.

And I have no doubt that you can show that this has happened to teachers, being popped three times that is!

Mods, my response to you is that you enjoy insulting and berating posters who you don't know, 

” who you don't know” Thankfully! If I see a tree, I tend to call it a tree, if I see a duck, I tend to call it a duck, if I see someone posting obviously unthought out silly statements, I tend to call them sil… 

when you want to insult another man, try doing it man to man.

Ah yes the typically western Neanderthal approach! Sorry grew out of that when I started shaving, obviously some have not!

Topper, I know 3 people that it happened to. They had a non b, but were waiting for their paperwork to be completed by the MOE. A fired teacher hired a lawyer to report them to the Ministry of Labor, and those teachers who had submitted everything weeks before went to jail.

And, of course, being a concerned teacher you decided not to raise any kind of warning that teachers were being arrested like this. And of course no one besides you has heard of any others being arrested besides the two last year. Within 48 hours of their arrest at least 50% of the farang teaching community in Thailand was aware of it and yet the story of your three remained somewhat silient!

[RobRoy]

In my small experience, the usual reason a school is raided is because a teacher or parent calls it in to the MOE or Immi.  I know personally of two schools that got raided and both times it was due to a disgruntled teacher (one farang, one Filipino) calling in and "reporting" the situation. 

I would agree.  certified, it appears the case you are referring to was instigated by a former teacher.  Why make other teachers suffer?  If I was arrested because of his problems with the school, I think I would have tracked him down and gone RST on him.

All 4 of the schools I've worked with practiced the probation thing.  At the first, I didn't realize the seriousness of the situation as I was ignorant.  At schools 2-4 I realized its a risk I was willing to take to work there. 

I guess that begs the next question.....when has a school been raided for no apparent reason?  I've never heard of it, a raid,in my experience, follows a complaint.

[sabai_sabai]

I've never worked at a school that put a work permit in every teacher's hands before they stepped into the building to teach.  At best, I've had a WP within 30 days, at worst, it was closer to 90 days.  Plenty of teachers get the, "soon..." excuse when they ask for their WPs and that's unacceptable, I agree.  I'd guess that these schools are more the rule than the exception.  Perhaps a list of schools that do provide WPs for teachers on the first day a teacher starts belongs in the Good Vibes Lounge. My guess is that will be a very short list.

[sabai_sabai]

I guess that begs the next question.....when has a school been raided for no apparent reason?  I've never heard of it, a raid,in my experience, follows a complaint.

Four schools last September were raided (and there are rumors of a few others that may or may not have been) all the raids were before the coup, within the same three week period.  I'm not sure if it's possible to know if all of these schools raided in a short period were following up complaints or not.  The amount that went on in such a short period could have been because of the worries about foreign teachers after JMK, a really interesting coincidence of four seperate complaints or after the first was raided the potential for tea money was realized.

BTW, teachers had their documents checked after the raids.  Teachers that were legal according to the Thai system did not have any other problems except for having to provide some extra paperwork proving they had degrees.  Other teachers (with real degrees) that had their paperwork in the process of being done had various things happen to them ranging from paying a fine to appearing in court.

[Mods-Rockers]

I've never worked at a school that put a work permit in every teacher's hands before they stepped into the building to teach.  At best, I've had a WP within 30 days, at worst, it was closer to 90 days.  Plenty of teachers get the, "soon..." excuse when they ask for their WPs and that's unacceptable, I agree.  I'd guess that these schools are more the rule than the exception.  Perhaps a list of schools that do provide WPs for teachers on the first day a teacher starts belongs in the Good Vibes Lounge. My guess is that will be a very short list.

Strangely the stumbling block for most schools is the Teachers license, the initial visa is not a problem, but a WP cannot be issued without a TL. That’s one of the joys of working in higher education I guess. University teachers don’t need a TL and thus the process is far simplified. My best was 24 hours worst 2 weeks in Uni’s however where the TL was needed, i.e. matayom or prathom my worst was a little over 10 weeks. I reckon that’s another good reason for teaching the older kids!

[bomha]

Childish insults have been totally removed.  Behave like adults, please.

[Nemesis]

I removed a lot of posts, this thread is about warning teachers, not a thread about fighting. We're all in this together and information helps us all. 

[7baht]

Being hauled off by immigration for fake papers isnt all there is to think about or have you guys not been faced with the famous police report stating you made threats to a school owner  hahahahaha all i said was  "well its back on the black list @TEFLWATCH for you "

7baht