Topic: Open Letter to Sarasas Ektra

[Nemesis]

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.  I'm crossing my fingers that Nemesis DID at least TRY to contact the teacher in question before publishing the director's letter.  As for his being a "virtual phantom," well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's mischief.  Is driving site traffic to TW really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed?  No street smarts, I'd say.

Thai Me Up, I really don't like your attitude. They already wanted to get this guy into hot water. By shining light onto what this Pisut wants to do, now EVERYONE who reads this site knows what this guy is trying to do and they can't attack him like a theif in the night.

Or would you prefer keeping silence and having someone dealt with the Thai way? As I said in the my letter, I'm not going to help them attack another teacher and I am not going to be silent while they do it. And I don't care about site traffic, what I do care about is shining the light on evil. What do you care about, Thai Me Up? Arguing in public? What I get from your posts is that you don't think teachers should have a voice against bad schools.

What should be the guidelines that we, as a community say, enough is enough.  Not only from schools, but from teachers as well?  Where is the difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a teacher slandering a school?  How do we, as a reputable group become a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools and thus win the respect of both?

Schools don't notify teachers that they are on a blacklist, TEFLWatch affords the same protections to schools. And RR, we are are not a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools. That's never been our modus operandi. We are a beacon of fairness to teachers. We are slanted on the side of the teachers. That's what being pro-teacher is all about.

Difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a school slandering a teacher? A big difference, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I'll preface this by saying I'm Christian, not because I'm a bible thumper because I'm not, just that it peppers my opinion.

Slander and screwing are different things. But let's look at what's the difference between a school slandering a teacher and a teacher slandering a school. It's both not right. But look how often it happens. I have never heard a school NOT slander a teacher who left in the middle of the term, remember slander is saying lies about someone. He left because his mom is sick, he left because he is bad teacher, whatever. Never the truth. Never, he left because he thought the school was not good. The same, I don't think we have ever had a teacher come on here and say outright complete lies about a school and then let the comments stand. Schools tend to slander, teachers don't.

Screwing over? How can a teacher screw over a school? Do a midnight run in the middle of the term with all the grades. We all know that happens and it's bad because it affects the students. But ask why the teacher left like that? More than likely it is because of some injustice the school has done. Teachers do it because they feel they have no other choice and they are likely pushed into it.

Ok what about schools screwing over teachers? They don't give them their final salaries, they fire them at the end of the term before bonuses are paid out, they hold them prisoners, they play games, you steal salaries, they cane them, you name it, we've seen it here. All of this makes leaving in the middle of the term with all the grades seem pretty sedate, especially with the value of grades in a place like Thailand. Everyone passes.

But above who slanders more or who screws over more, schools and teachers have a master/servant, employee/employer relationship. To me, this means schools have a responsiblity to make sure that their employees are taken care of before they get a new mercedes, they have a responsibility to take the moral high road. They have a responsibility to not slander and not screw over teachers, EVEN if a teacher is slandering and screwing them over. You read what the schools want and they want teachers who are more ethical and moral than they are. Ha! It's not how it was intended.

They believe in a double standard, but I don't. I believe the leaders, whether the boss or the Prime Minister, needs to be of higher moral fabric than the underlings.

[Mods-Rockers]

Nemisis the above seems to read; School and the MOE will not take the moral high ground so why should we? Surely its far better to show the way rather than pouting because the bosses will not lead the way.

There is an old military maxim; 'its always better to fight from the high ground' and whilst the battle between schools and teachers, and I don't deny that it is a real battle, is not fought with guns and bullets but with concepts. by not taking the moral high ground we are basically saying to the schools; seeing as you will not fight by our rules we will fight by yours! I dare say they will be happy with that as they have far more experience with their way!

By taking the high ground and applying western concepts of fairness, we will effectively wrong foot their battle plans and whilst still bloody we should be able to continually gain ground. However fighting by their rules is surely a road to complete and utter defeat!

[Mods-Rockers]

You're a Sarasas Ektra ventriloqist. That's DUMMY in English.

Its very rare that you are correct and sadly this is another example of your being wrong. A ventriloquist (please note the correct use of the letter ‘u’ after the letter ‘q’) is the person holding and playing with the dummy. So if I am the ventriloquist, then surely that makes you the DUMMY!

But seeing as I am not the only one playing you for a fool than I guess that makes a whole squadron of ventriloquists to your bare platoon of DUMMIES! Unfair I know, but frankly I don’t give a damn!

[bomha]

TEFLWatch is pro-teacher, and that does not include making excuses for truly bad, evil, unprofessional teachers.  We are far higher ground than most of the schools.  If we were perfect, they would crucify us.

But what is so evil about doing a runner from an insane asylum when you are sane?   It is no big deal to neglect to turn in 'marks' that are meaningless, marks which will be altered however the evil school wishes to alter them! 

My mate gave notice, had an accident, and left town with the 'marks.'  He was going to call them and ask if they wanted the marks, but waited for them to call him.  They never called.  He let them keep 700 baht of earned salary; he said that made them all even.   

I am watching some movie like "Alien" or "Specie".  When the monster is trying to destroy you, it is all right to run away. 

[Mods-Rockers]

 

   It is no big deal to neglect to turn in 'marks' that are meaningless, marks which will be altered however the evil school wishes to alter them! 

 

Surely neglecting to turn in marks merely ensures that meaningless marks are allocated!

[los_teacher]

Surely a professional teacher remains professional even when working at an unprofessional school.

Doing a runner is decidedly not professional.  No 'real' teacher would do this except in the case of family emergency or not being paid.

Teachers must hold themselves to a higher standard than 'business people' and administrators.  If a person is unwilling to do this, they should find another profession.

This does not mean a teacher must continue working at a school that is mistreating them.  It simply means that because there are students involved and the students are the ones who will be hurt most, a teacher is obligated to give a proper notice to a school before leaving.  Otherwise the teacher is directly harming the students.  It doesn't matter if the school chooses to harm the students, that is a separate issue entirely.  It is the moral and ethical duty of any teacher to not cause harm to students.

[Mods-Rockers]

Well stated LT greenie on the way!

[Nemesis]

Surely a professional teacher remains professional even when working at an unprofessional school.

Doing a runner is decidedly not professional.  No 'real' teacher would do this except in the case of family emergency or not being paid.

Teachers must hold themselves to a higher standard than 'business people' and administrators.  If a person is unwilling to do this, they should find another profession.

This does not mean a teacher must continue working at a school that is mistreating them.  It simply means that because there are students involved and the students are the ones who will be hurt most, a teacher is obligated to give a proper notice to a school before leaving.  Otherwise the teacher is directly harming the students.  It doesn't matter if the school chooses to harm the students, that is a separate issue entirely.  It is the moral and ethical duty of any teacher to not cause harm to students.

I have to disagree, Los_teacher, because you are missing the mark. You say no real teacher would do such a thing, but what is a real teacher anyways? Your definition of a real teacher I am sure is at odds with what just about every school in Thailand calls a real teacher.

A real bonafide professional teacher can be someone with a pulse, a passport for a western country and a paper that SAYS they have a 4 year degree. High moral fiber? Aint seen that in a job ad in awhile. Just look at the hiring requirements of most schools if you doubt that. 

I am also gonna have to disagree with you about the standards of business people and administrators. I am sorry, I believe that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best. When someone isn't doing their very best, they need to be called on it. To say that it's ok that business people and school administrators are not doing their best and that's to be expected, I think that's just plain wrong and sounds like an admin cop-out.

[Mods-Rockers]

I have to disagree, Los_teacher, because you are missing the mark. You say no real teacher would do such a thing, but what is a real teacher anyways? Your definition of a real teacher I am sure is at odds with what just about every school in Thailand calls a real teacher.

A real bonafide professional teacher can be someone with a pulse, a passport for a western country and a paper that SAYS they have a 4 year degree. High moral fiber? Aint seen that in a job ad in awhile. Just look at the hiring requirements of most schools if you doubt that. 

I am also gonna have to disagree with you about the standards of business people and administrators. I am sorry, I believe that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best. When someone isn't doing their very best, they need to be called on it. To say that it's ok that business people and school administrators are not doing their best and that's to be expected, I think that's just plain wrong and sounds like an admin cop-out.

I hate disagreeing with the administration but sometimes there is a need, Nemisis I would say you are missing the mark here! You are quite correct that ‘high moral fiber’ is not normally stated in hiring requirements for teachers, in much the same way ‘able to breathe unaided’ and ‘able to speak English’ is not. Why? Well frankly they are givens, you will not send your children to be educated at a school that did not expect ‘high moral fibre’ from its teachers in much the same way as you would not send your children to be taught at a school that placed a rotting cadaver in the teachers seat.

I totally agree with you that “that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best.” However you seem to be implying that because the businesspeople and administrators in Thailand don’t hold up their side of the bargain that we should sink to their level! I am sorry to say that my own personal set of ethics would not allow me to be like that, I refuse to be a fool just because I sometimes have to work with fools, I refuse to be corrupt just because I work in a corrupt society, I refuse to lower my moral stance simply because my bosses have no morals!

[RobRoy]

I know I used the term slander...the proper term is libel (at least in American law).  But both are about spoken / written words that are intended to cause harm  to the reputation to the person being spoken of.

Schools don't notify teachers that they are on a blacklist, TEFLWatch affords the same protections to schools. And RR, we are are not a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools. That's never been our modus operandi. We are a beacon of fairness to teachers. We are slanted on the side of the teachers. That's what being pro-teacher is all about.

I do agree that supporting teachers is the the function of this forum, but does it support the teaching community by publishing remarks over the course of years that are patently untrue, even by the posters admission?  Lets face it, how many times as the poster in question contradicted himself?  Does pro-teacher mean supporting a teacher, even when he's lying?  If so, what does that say about us as a group?  And yes, I realize that the truth is based on our own take on reality, but dang, RST is way over the top.
At wht point do we pick an obvious truth over a teacher?

How many blacklisted teachers do you know?  I don't know any.  And if you are blacklisted you can appeal it to the MOE.  Apparently the school posted that an apology was given and accepted.  They made their "appeal" to the forum.  Are you surprised the lawyers are getting involved?  At what point does the mod team get together and say "ENOUGH!"

Difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a school slandering a teacher? A big difference, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I'll preface this by saying I'm Christian, not because I'm a bible thumper because I'm not, just that it peppers my opinion.

Slander and screwing are different things. But let's look at what's the difference between a school slandering a teacher and a teacher slandering a school. It's both not right. But look how often it happens. I have never heard a school NOT slander a teacher who left in the middle of the term, remember slander is saying lies about someone. He left because his mom is sick, he left because he is bad teacher, whatever. Never the truth. Never, he left because he thought the school was not good. The same, I don't think we have ever had a teacher come on here and say outright complete lies about a school and then let the comments stand. Schools tend to slander, teachers don't.

Screwing over? How can a teacher screw over a school? Do a midnight run in the middle of the term with all the grades. We all know that happens and it's bad because it affects the students. But ask why the teacher left like that? More than likely it is because of some injustice the school has done. Teachers do it because they feel they have no other choice and they are likely pushed into it.

Ok what about schools screwing over teachers? They don't give them their final salaries, they fire them at the end of the term before bonuses are paid out, they hold them prisoners, they play games, you steal salaries, they cane them, you name it, we've seen it here. All of this makes leaving in the middle of the term with all the grades seem pretty sedate, especially with the value of grades in a place like Thailand. Everyone passes.

But above who slanders more or who screws over more, schools and teachers have a master/servant, employee/employer relationship. To me, this means schools have a responsiblity to make sure that their employees are taken care of before they get a new mercedes, they have a responsibility to take the moral high road. They have a responsibility to not slander and not screw over teachers, EVEN if a teacher is slandering and screwing them over. You read what the schools want and they want teachers who are more ethical and moral than they are. Ha! It's not how it was intended.

They believe in a double standard, but I don't. I believe the leaders, whether the boss or the Prime Minister, needs to be of higher moral fabric than the underlings.

I don't believe in a double standard either.  I'm a professional and will act that way, even when the school doesn't.  If the school is acting poorly, does that mean I should stoop to their level?  Do I act irresponsible just because the school is?  I have to get up and look in the mirror every morning....when I hear excuses for unprofessional actions by a teacher, does that really comment on the school or the teacher?  Am I saying schools don't pull every trick in the book?  No, of course not, but that doesn't mean teachers have to either, usually there are several options for a teacher.  Doing a runner should be the last.

How many members have posted lately about being screwed over here in Thailand?  I would say that the trend is that schools are starting to realize that farangs can/will sue and therefore are being a bit more careful.  This forum has helped tremendously in that regard as well.

Why should my directors morals be higher than mine?  There's only one person who's morals I look to for guidance and he died a couple of thousand years ago.  I try and set my goals higher than a mortal could display.  But thats just me....what do I know?

[los_teacher]

M-R and Rob Roy, I think we are in agreement.

Nemesis, I understand your position.  It is difficult to not become cynical when working in the types of schools that are all too common in this country, and other countries as well.  But I think it is important to not lose sight of the purpose of the profession - to teach.  Even in the worst of schools with the worst of students a good teacher can have moderate success. 

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

[wangsuda]

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

This is the true definition of a teacher. It's something I've tried to live up to (although not always successfully) for the almost 10 years I've been teaching.

[RobRoy]

M-R and Rob Roy, I think we are in agreement.

Nemesis, I understand your position.  It is difficult to not become cynical when working in the types of schools that are all too common in this country, and other countries as well.  But I think it is important to not lose sight of the purpose of the profession - to teach.  Even in the worst of schools with the worst of students a good teacher can have moderate success. 

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

Very well put...at the end of the day, its the committment to the students that defines whether a person is a teacher or someone thats just filling a job for selfish reasons.  And because of our committment to our students we try and act as role models for them, even when no one else is.  Because of this it means that teachers and the teaching community does have to have a higher ethical ideals.  A measure of these ethics should be that we act as professionals, role models and inspirations to not only to our students, but also to the school, even when others are being less than ethical to us.  Thats the measure of a person...does he hold to his morals in the face of adversity or fold.

[Nemesis]

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

And I am glad we are in agreement, los_teacher. It seems like everyone is in agreement on this thread. Doing your best, your 100% best means accepting a job and seeing it through to the end and not letting things get in your way. Teaching them to the best of your ability and giving them all you can give to them, they are your students and they are in your care.

And this has absolutely nothing with ratting out bad schools. Bad schools would have you believe that being a good teacher IS not complaining about the conditions and just accepting them happily. From what I understand, you're implying ratting out a school means you're a bad teacher. This doesn't make sense. Anyways, this thread has diverted entirely fromt he threat made against the teacher and it seems like several people in this thread are justifying the schools actions to threaten another teacher. You need to think hard about that.