Topic: Open Letter to Sarasas Ektra

[Nemesis]

Thanks for the email. I would have liked that this hadn't happened. Unfortunately, I will be required to make this letter public to the internet at large. It may not make your school be seen in a favorable light.

Sorry, we can not and will not comply with Thai Law that is in contravention of US law. The comments in question left on the website are protected speech under the Safe Harbor Provision of US law. The site is hosted in the US and it is a US based website and needs to comply with US law, not Thai law. The Thai Law you quote is draconian and violates human rights.

I am sorry that I am not able to make special provisions for Thai people, everyone is equal on TEFLWatch. I urge you to make comments on TEFLWatch, you have that right. But I can not and will not take away someone elses right to free speech away.

You may seek litigation in Thailand for any perceived offenses you believe have been committed, but you will have an unenforceable judgment. You do need to seek redress in US courts because this is a US site, but be prepared for a countersuit under provisions of the law that prevent trying to take away the human rights of Americans abroad.

My simple advice to you, is to counter the bad news with good news of your own. Have your teachers spread the good news about your school. You do have happy teachers, right?

You will do whatever you need to do, but I can't, under US law, do any actions that would jeopardize the human rights of anyone else. I know the draconian law in Thailand, and I refuse to be used as any tool to inflict harm upon another human being for merely stating their opinion.
 
Letter in both pdf and jpg:
http://www.teflwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/letterfromektra.jpg
http://www.teflwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/letterfromektra.pdf

[between myths]

Not a badly written letter. Not a great letter but not a badly written one either.

And a very nice response, Khun Nemesis.

[Mods-Rockers]

Whilst it is true that U have no love for Namtok, Retiredstillteaching et al, it does seem that his rants have finally caused Ektra to sharpen the knives. you are perfectly correct Nemisis when you state that the site is protected and Namtoks Indentity is thus protected via the site. However the school knows who he is, and can thus find him by other means. It seems that namtoks days in Thailand may be comoing to an end unless he is stupid enough to try and fight them!

Thai defamation laws are firstly criminal in nature and thus carry what can be a hefty jailterm and sadly the burden of proof often falls on the accused, the real person behind the namtok et al usernames would have to prove he was not Namtok, which I would say could be a tad difficult!

[anyonefortennis]

oh dear oh dear.

If ever there was a case of shooting oneself in the foot  .

Respect to the admin for putting the letter in the public domain.  NT (hard as he may try) could not have posted anything so daming as the letter from the Sarasas admin.

Prospective Sarasas teachers this is your red flag warning..........ignore it at your peril   

[angryfarang]

People in Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones ( Be warned Sarasas )

Sarasas over the years has mistreated, lied and even threatened and punished its teachers. It has a simply awlful name, thats all of them, not just the ones recently mentioned. The Educational Standard is a Joke! they of course are not alone in this area, as it is a Thai cultural disease to under educate. It is however a very successful business with friends high up. The Days of Namtok may be coming to an end, but so may the days of Sarasas as it appears that the Parents might be about to sue Sarasas for misrepresentation of a contract. I.E. to educate their children. Well done Nemesis for your report. New Teachers avoid all Sarasas like the Plague, they also pay below the level of any Language School in Thailand, most if not all teachers are totally unqualified apart from the Khao San degree.

[hero]

Threads merged.

[between myths]

Khun Namtok/Retired Still Teaching--
     Sarasas Ektra seems to think it is going to huff and puff and (eventually) blow your house down. Silly posturing and a poorly thought out effort to intimidate, I think. But if I am wrong and things get shitty in a formal way, I am good for a few thousand baht to your legal defense fund. Don't let the fools win, sir -- either legally or morally. Keep speaking out!
                       With Respect, a newbie

[RobRoy]

"Namtok talks about Sarasas Ekktra School and MOST of the information is not true"

Nemesis, I would ask would parts ARE true to help you "prune" the information properly.  It might be interesting in what they say.  And, I'm not suggesting you actually delete anything due to this, but just get the info from the school.

I wonder if the school actually read Namtok/RST posts to see how well they're "appreciated", for the lack of a better term, by the teaching community.  Or have questioned why Namtok doesn't post any more.  

Lastly, as I'm sure you have, inform the school of the existence of this thread so they may comment.

[sir mouse burgher]

Well I have read the epistle in question and indeed the signature is certainly that of Pisut Yongkamol the head honcho at Sarasas Ektra .

The request made smacks of Gestapo content , you should be aware that the family who own theses Sarasas schools are not considered lilywhite in many sectors of Thai society for a number of reasons .

The school is sort of run by a mainly unqualified and arrogant Thai and Australian clique  :talkhand:intent on protecting their little fiefdoms and cushy lifestyles.

However I can say that if any one considersorking at the Sarasas schools group they must be
TOTALLY BLOODY MAD  

[Gonzo]

Just something the admin might like to consider regarding this new development.

The aim might not be to have the content removed from your site.
The aim might be to gather enough evidence of non cooperation to then apply to the courts here in Thailand to have TeflWatch blocked by the Ministry of Information and Technology as a seditious or anti Thai website.

The MICT is pretty quick on the trigger finger at the moment under the current military government. And the Youngkamol family does have some hefty connections in the ministries.

Not a big hurdle for we that know how to use a proxy server but it would mean you would be cut off from many new potential users and your valid warnings of caution will then not be read by those who really need to see them.

[RobRoy]

  Thought about that one myself, but I would think many websites could be accused of slagging Thai schools/Thai culture, etc.  Where would the MICT start....and finish?

[sabai_sabai]

Just something the admin might like to consider regarding this new development.

The aim might not be to have the content removed from your site.
The aim might be to gather enough evidence of non cooperation to then apply to the courts here in Thailand to have TeflWatch blocked by the Ministry of Information and Technology as a seditious or anti Thai website.

The MICT is pretty quick on the trigger finger at the moment under the current military government. And the Youngkamol family does have some hefty connections in the ministries.

Not a big hurdle for we that know how to use a proxy server but it would mean you would be cut off from many new potential users and your valid warnings of caution will then not be read by those who really need to see them.

Interesting thought, and having TEFL watch banned here would be bad in the short-term but would probably bring a lot more attention to the site and proxies and mirror sites would solve the problem.  Long term, I think it would actually make TEFL watch a bigger site with all the publicity that blocking it would generate.

Sarasas and BCC have had an awful reputation spread by word of mouth for years.  Before TEFL watch and it's predecessors many foreign teachers in Thailand at least knew about the reputation.  Word of mouth is probably worse than any web forum because the stories tend to become more exaggerated in time.

Sarasas should be concerned about a website that can be accessed in the West, even if it were ever to be blocked here.  They hire many teachers from overseas, perhaps because it has a bad reputation here and people overseas haven't heard.  I was called when I was overseas and the package they offered me as a qualified teacher in my home country was 30,000 Baht.  (I had a good laugh.) Seems that they are counting on teachers having as little information as possible before accepting a job.  It's in their interest to keep information about them away from prospective teachers overseas. 

TEFL watch will always win one way or another by posting the threats that they receive.  It probably generates more traffic on this site and a few more threads about the offending school/institution.  Westerners react very strongly against the idea of censorship, and trying to find someone and accuse them of slander is attempting to silence opposing opinions.  It would be wiser if Sarasas went onto the thread and refuted the posts that they believe are untrue.  Even BCC has had teachers writing posts that things are getting better.  Even when these posts are rebutted (which they always will be) at least both sides can be in writing on the board.

[between myths]

  "Westerners react very strongly against the idea of censorship, and trying to find someone and accuse them of slander is attempting to silence opposing opinions.  It would be wiser if Sarasas went onto the thread and refuted the posts that they believe are untrue." (sabai sabai) 


This soooo true.

[Sayjack]

I love the message in the letter. However, you need an editor. There are some sloppy mistakes and some usage problems. There must be an English teacher around here somewhere.

[samvimes]

Unfortunately for Sarasas, the key concept here is jurisdiction.

As the  server that his web site is hosted on is in the USA, quoting all the Thai laws will change nothing as Thai courts have no jurisdiction at all AND the right to express your opinion is guaranteed by the constitution of the United States.

[Krungsri]

I love the message in the letter. However, you need a editor. There are some sloppy mistakes and some usage problems. There must be an English teacher around here somewhere.

Sayjack, the correctness or otherwise of the English in the letter is not relevant.  The letter appears to me to be a direct communication from the school director to the webmaster.  It is a letter, not a posting to the forum, and it is from the school director, not an English teacher.  It is the Director’s voice, not a ghost writer’s.

The fact that it is a direct communication to the webmaster raises the question of why the webmaster felt obliged to publish it on the forum.  I would have thought the normal response to a private letter would be to respond to the person, not to publish it in the public domain.  I question the “requirement” for the webmaster to make the letter public.  It seems to me to be, perhaps, good journalism, but poor ethics.

I don’t know why the Director has felt the need to write to the webmaster at this point in time.  I assume he’s been provoked by some recent action somewhere by the ex-teacher concerned and has decided to take this action in response.  Director Pisut has studied and worked for several years in a western country and has worked with large numbers of western teachers for 15 years, so I’m confident his appeal to TEFLWatch has been made in good faith and after careful thought.  However, the webmaster decided he should put the Thai administrator publicly in his place, pointing out that, not only does the website have to comply with US law, but that US is superior to Thai law anyway.  Is this cultural imperialism or what?   

[Sayjack]

I love the message in the letter. However, you need an editor. There are some sloppy mistakes and some usage problems. There must be an English teacher around here somewhere.

Sayjack, the correctness or otherwise of the English in the letter is not relevant.  The letter appears to me to be a direct communication from the school director to the webmaster.  It is a letter, not a posting to the forum, and it is from the school director, not an English teacher.  It is the Director’s voice, not a ghost writer’s.

The fact that it is a direct communication to the webmaster raises the question of why the webmaster felt obliged to publish it on the forum.  I would have thought the normal response to a private letter would be to respond to the person, not to publish it in the public domain.  I question the “requirement” for the webmaster to make the letter public.  It seems to me to be, perhaps, good journalism, but poor ethics.

I don’t know why the Director has felt the need to write to the webmaster at this point in time.  I assume he’s been provoked by some recent action somewhere by the ex-teacher concerned and has decided to take this action in response.  Director Pisut has studied and worked for several years in a western country and has worked with large numbers of western teachers for 15 years, so I’m confident his appeal to TEFLWatch has been made in good faith and after careful thought.  However, the webmaster decided he should put the Thai administrator publicly in his place, pointing out that, not only does the website have to comply with US law, but that US is superior to Thai law anyway.  Is this cultural imperialism or what?   

I was talking about the reply from 'admin.' There were some pretty simple mistakes that could have easily been changed. We all need editors. 

[Nemesis]

Sayjack, the correctness or otherwise of the English in the letter is not relevant.  The letter appears to me to be a direct communication from the school director to the webmaster.  It is a letter, not a posting to the forum, and it is from the school director, not an English teacher.  It is the Director’s voice, not a ghost writer’s.

The fact that it is a direct communication to the webmaster raises the question of why the webmaster felt obliged to publish it on the forum.  I would have thought the normal response to a private letter would be to respond to the person, not to publish it in the public domain.  I question the “requirement” for the webmaster to make the letter public.  It seems to me to be, perhaps, good journalism, but poor ethics.

I don’t know why the Director has felt the need to write to the webmaster at this point in time.  I assume he’s been provoked by some recent action somewhere by the ex-teacher concerned and has decided to take this action in response.  Director Pisut has studied and worked for several years in a western country and has worked with large numbers of western teachers for 15 years, so I’m confident his appeal to TEFLWatch has been made in good faith and after careful thought.  However, the webmaster decided he should put the Thai administrator publicly in his place, pointing out that, not only does the website have to comply with US law, but that US is superior to Thai law anyway.  Is this cultural imperialism or what?   

This was posted because that has been the policy of TEFLWatch from day 1. When someone makes a legal threat or otherwise to TEFLWatch, TEFLWatch publishes it and put its out there. If Mr Pisut had taken the time to review the site, he would know that is the position of TEFLWatch.

I'm sure he made the statement with a lot of though and it was made in good faith. I don't doubt it at all.

I have put several people publicly "in their place" and it has nothing to do with nationality. Please read the TEFL Institute Threatens TeflWatch for a case in point.

And yes, Krungsri, US law is superior to Thai law. At least in this situation. The site is hosted in the US and falls under US jurisdiction.....or is US law now subserviant to Thai law? Surely you're not saying this.

Example, I could take a Thai person to court in the US and maybe get a judgement, but that judgement would need to be enforced in Thailand under Thai law. Only the assets in the US could satisfy the judgement. It's the way things work.

I also can not comply because complying would leave me open to legal action in the US. Why? Yahoo is being is sued by the relative of a Chinese man jailed for comments made on a Yahoo discussion board. Yahoo turned over his information to the Chinese government. There being sued under a 200 year old law that allows those wronged by US companies or individuals in the US to sue in US courts, even if the offense occurred in another country. The situs of the crime isn't important, just the location of one or more defendants. I don't want to be the bad guy so I need to protect anyone posting on this forum.

And yes I did make mistakes, I noticed a couple, but I also realized that correcting them would make the letter not the same as the one emailed to Sarasas. I thought that was more important than a few mistakes.

 

[Krungsri]

Thanks for your clarifications, Nemesis.  However, I didn't see any threat to TEFLWatch in the Director's letter.  Rather he requested that Namtok's postings regarding Ektra be rejected.  In fact the Director complimented TEFLWatch on its work - hardly what one would do if one were threatening the site.

With regard to the legal references, my concern was not that US law has legal jurisdiction over TEFLWatch (that is understood), but that your response to the Director suggested that US law is ethically superior to Thai law, the latter being draconian and the former protecting human rights, etc.  We are entitled to make judgements about different legal codes, but I would thinkThai legislators have different priorities and come out of a different historical background from their US counterparts.  And I would think Thai law would be different from US law even if the political system here were running along as smoothly and democratically as it could.

Had you said what you wanted to in a private response to a private letter no one could complain.  However, you chose to put the letter and your response in the public domain.  I think that was an ethical misjudgement.

[between myths]

krungsri, Aside from your concerns about the ethical considerations of Nemesis being honest, forthright and completely open with his readership -- would you care to express any ethical concerns about the documented abuse alleged regarding the school in question?

[RobRoy]

between,

As a new user here, perhaps you're unfamilar with Namtok/RetiredStillTeaching....if you want to see what he has to say about the "event" where he was "brutally caned by a Thai teacher" and other Sarasas events, some that were covered up by the Gay Australian Mafia and really just want something quite comical to read, check out the "Square Circle"  the thread is "An ethics question".  It shows just what kind of psyche the guy has.

I think you need 20 posts though to access the subform though.

Post a few more times, check it out.  Its worth reading just to get to know some of the posters here just a wee bit better.

[between myths]

OK -- I will. Thanks.

[lemon]

I think it is well written.  Buy will the stupid ass on the other end understand a letter that's not about food and written in English, er, real English?

[retiredstillteaching]

between, don't overlook reading the 'Sarasas All' thread in the Thailand function of the forum. (Don't count on making any posts or comments to it however as Mods-Rockers arbitrarily and summarily locked the thread just recently.)

Also, everyone should keep in mind that Krungsiri, who himself is getting long in the tooth, is a self-confessed administrator at Sarasas Ektra Bilingual School; he and his Lao wife are longtime friends of the Yonkomol family and together were invited to work at Ektra school several years ago, which they have done since.

Indeed, at the beginning of each school year Krungsiri gives the newly hired foreign teachers a "symposia" on how they must follow the absurd rules of the school and become absolutely subserviant to the one and only True Way of conducting themselves, ie, the Thai Way as defined by Sarasas.

Sarasas Ektra always has had and continues to have the former Nam Tok's email address, which hasn't changed since the former Nam Tok first registered with Hotmail in the mid 1990s. Krungsiri, the Buffalo and the Jackal at Ektra have the former Nam Tok's phone number, which hasn't changed since the days Nam Tok was at Ektra, as the former Nam Tok in turn has each of their phone numbers and email addresses.

The former Nam Tok and the Buffalo and the Jackal of Ektra have spoken on the phone since the former Nam Tok of Teflwatch resigned (with proper notice) from Ektra (before he ever became Nam Tok). Earlier this year Krungsiri and Nam Tok met over nam cha at Paragon one weekend to chat and agreed to meet again (tho another personal meeting hasn't happened since). Krungsiri, the Buffalo and the Jackal at Ektra continue to receive an occasional email from the former Nam Tok at their email addresses.

Sarasas Ektra knows they can contact the former Nam Tok directly by more than one medium if they so choose. The letter from Pisut, who has an Master degree/diplomate from a residence university in Australia, Assumption University, needn't have been sent to Teflwatch if Sarasas Ektra wished only to contact the former Nam Tok for any reason.

So what's the real reason Pisut Yongkamol, director of Sarasas Ektra Bilingual School, sent his supposedly self-composed letter on official stationery to Teflwatch? Did the GAM at Ektra not know such a letter was being contemplated or written and processed? Indeed, there's more treachery to this than meets the eye.

[RobRoy]

RST...not cool to directly name the wife...she's not involved...

[retiredstillteaching]

I didn't name the wife nor did I characterize her in any way. What are you trying to start? I referenced her in passing as an employee of Sarasas to illustrate the point that Krungsiri and the Yongkamols are long time friends. I have nothing but respect and affection for the wife. Buzz out with this line of bullshite.

Before you try to start more mischief, Krungsiri and I exchanged emails and had discussions while I was at Ektra. Krungsiri and I have continued to exchange emails on a continuing basis during the years since I resigned from Sarasas Ektra (with proper notice).

As I state above, Krungsiri and I met personally earlier this year over nam cha and had a fond reunion after my return to Bangkok after 18 continuous months in Satun province. For years Krungsiri and I have emailed and personally discussed religion, government and politics, especially Thailand. Krungsiri knows how to contact me directly either by email or by mobile phone, as he's done either many times.

 

[RobRoy]

I just reread the thread, you referenced her ethnicity rather than by name...I apologize.

[retiredstillteaching]

A rarity at Teflwatch---a gentleman. (At least at times, such as this one). Apology humbly accepted.

[Nick2007]

it is a Thai cultural disease to under educate.

[Krungsri]

Before you try to start more mischief, Krungsiri and I exchanged emails and had discussions while I was at Ektra. Krungsiri and I have continued to exchange emails on a continuing basis during the years since I resigned from Sarasas Ektra (with proper notice).

As I state above, Krungsiri and I met personally earlier this year over nam cha and had a fond reunion after my return to Bangkok after 18 continuous months in Satun province. For years Krungsiri and I have emailed and personally discussed religion, government and politics, especially Thailand. Krungsiri knows how to contact me directly either by email or by mobile phone, as he's done either many times.

 

Only on topics unrelated to the school, as you must acknowledge, RST.  Only on topics of common interest which you used to be able to discuss with some knowledge and eloquence and that go back to our days at Ektra.  It was no secret among my admin colleagues at Ektra that we had this communication and that it was based (or so I thought) on mutual respect.  That stopped when, in a message to the "Time to move on" thread, you claimed that we had never been friends or colleagues.  I was a bit taken aback at this and had to admit at that point that your obsession had finally taken control of your better nature.  It seems I was the last to realise, though I was aware from the beginning that to discuss school matters with you even in private correspondence would be both unprofessional and unwise.  I made that quite clear in our correspondence.

I don't want to engage you in this forum on anything to do with Ektra.  It would be like tag wrestling in quicksand.  It wouldn't stop till everyone involved is dragged down.   

While I'm here, though, let me say that anyone who has read this site for the past year or more knows that I am at Ektra.  I've said it more than once.  People can make their own judgements about it.  It's hardly a weapon you can use.  I've nothing to hide.

Oh, and one more thing... the 7 or 8 one-period discussions I have with new teachers each semester are not "symposia".  They are "colloquia" - discussions among new colleagues led by myself.  They have very little to do with the school rules, though clearly new teachers need and usually want to know about Thai values and expectations and obviously these are important in a Thai school.  My personal observation is that new teachers generally benefit from some induction. 

[RobRoy]

RST,

What does Krungsri's position, responsiblities, etc have to do with the comments YOU'VE made about Sarasas.  Yes, it does seem that Sararas knows how to find you...why drag Krungsri, his wife, their job responsiblities, etc into the fray.  I don't really care how many times you've had tea with him...what does it have to do with what the school is accusing you of? 

From what I read on the letter posted by your former employer, no mention was made to Krungsri. 

Are you trying to deflect blame on your own actions by critising others that work there?  Explain what accusations you or your alter ego made against Sarasas.  Did you go a bit over the top with your complaints?  If NOT, then why not go to the school and explain your feelings on the situation.  Or apologize for overreacting.  Post an open letter saying, "I was really angry at the time and overracted....."

Otherwise, if you're still in Thailand then I suggest you read the book "The Damage Done".

[retiredstillteaching]

Krungsiri I haven't been friendly or collegial to you since you made a post with Mods-Rockers, a post which revealed the tip of the iceberg of your duplicity. You immediately made a post apologizing for your indescrete post, an apology I have yet to accept.

Rob Roy, you're clueless.

[RobRoy]

Clueless?  None of the schools I've worked at have requested my info from here.  Why again are they wanting to know about you?  What is going to be the school's next step, request your info from immi?  Yep, I'm clueless...and prefer to be that way.  That whole immigration detention thing doesn't really appeal to me.

[exsssteacher]

I know what Thais can do, if was Retired from Teaching, I'd leave very quickly. Sarasas is out of the Hall of Shame. I'd like to see Srithammarat Suksa in the Hall of Shame. What they did was worse than caning.

[RobRoy]

And believe it or not, I hope you do make it thru the storm...Personally I think an explanation/apology is in order, both to the teaching community and to the school, but either way I would suggest you really consider anything you say publicly.  Don't give the bastards any more ammo to shoot you with.

[Krungsri]

Krungsiri I haven't been friendly or collegial to you since you made a post with Mods-Rockers, a post which revealed the tip of the iceberg of your duplicity.

What is "a post with Mods-Rockers"? How does one do it?  I've never made a post with Mods-Rockers.  I don't know who or where Mods-Rockers is other than as a persona on TEFLWatch.  Why would I seek him out to make a joint posting about you?

This is a truly bizarre accusation.

[RobRoy]

This is a truly bizarre accusation.

He's a truly bizarre guy...what do you expect? 

[sabai_sabai]

I know what Thais can do, if was Retired from Teaching, I'd leave very quickly. Sarasas is out of the Hall of Shame. I'd like to see Srithammarat Suksa in the Hall of Shame. What they did was worse than caning.

If a person is teaching legally in Thailand, the teacher can be found through immigration at their school.  As far as outside of school is concerned, immigration requires foreigners to register <ahem> an </ahem> address every ninety days. 

If the school is pursuing legal means of getting to Nam Tok, I wouldn't believe that they would operate outside of the law to get to a teacher.  Outside of the law would be much faster and cheaper but might require them to pursue him nearby another school.  Even a school with the fewest khunyings would have something to say about that.

All they could really do is put him on the blacklist making him unable to get an MOE teachers license.  (Yes, there really is a blacklist, there is.) But, it is likely that too much time has passed for Sarasas to do that without raising a few eyebrows at the MOE and they don't have a real, valid reason to see that he is denied a license.

[retiredstillteaching]

RST,

What does Krungsri's position, responsiblities, etc have to do with the comments YOU'VE made about Sarasas.  Yes, it does seem that Sararas knows how to find you...why drag Krungsri, his wife, their job responsiblities, etc into the fray.  I don't really care how many times you've had tea with him...what does it have to do with what the school is accusing you of? 

From what I read on the letter posted by your former employer, no mention was made to Krungsri. 

Are you trying to deflect blame on your own actions by critising others that work there?  Explain what accusations you or your alter ego made against Sarasas.  Did you go a bit over the top with your complaints?  If NOT, then why not go to the school and explain your feelings on the situation.  Or apologize for overreacting.  Post an open letter saying, "I was really angry at the time and overracted....."

Otherwise, if you're still in Thailand then I suggest you read the book "The Damage Done".

As I said, Rob Roy, you're clueless.

See my Reply #23 in which I stated that at least three (3) administrators at Sarasas Ektra school have both the telephone number and the email address of the former Nam Tok and could contact him at either at any time, to include Krungsiri.

You should be asking why Sarasas Ektra school is notifying Teflwatch that it will sue Teflwatch and why Sarasas Ektra school is demanding that Teflwatch provide the identity of the former Teflwatcher Nam Tok to Sarasas under the threat of pains and penalties to both. I don't know what you think you gain from pretending to be a Teflwatcher. You can't or won't even stand up for Teflwatch or for a fellow (former) Teflwatcher, Nam Tok. The fact is that Sarasas Ektra school owes the former Nam Tok a HUGE apology and the guarantee of a cessation of its ongoing, baseless, hostilities against the former Nam Tok that continue even to this date.

Krungsiri made a post in this matter stating that Pisut Yongkamol, director of Sarasas Ektra school and (who I would add is) a son of the patriarch owner of the Sarasas Empire, wrote the letter himself, which is a credible statement by Krungsiri (which also would explain the English). Pisut is an emotional man who perhaps stayed much too late and much too alone at the office one nite recently. Indeed, someone made a post the other day that some parents are sueing Sarasas Ektra for failing to provide the education promised to their children. If so, that certainly would be a major breakthrough concerning education in Thailand, particularly at proprietary schools such as Sarasas.

Why do you miss so much?

Notice also that Mods-Rockers suddenly has gone silent.

To Krungsiri,

Do stop being rediculous. I never said "joint" post. You and Mods-Rockers (who's suddenly gone into hiding) made successive posts to the same thread in the same matters. In my book, making a post that's directly connected to one of Mods-Rockers whacky posts is not good. You indeed apologized for it in a subsequent post to the thread.

Krungsiri, you and I each know that getting into a slanging match is like, in your own words, "wrestling in quicksand". Perhaps you ought to respect your own insight. Perhaps you also could do more to restrain the mad dogs of the Ektra farang management.

[Mods-Rockers]

Do stop being rediculous. I never said "joint" post. You and Mods-Rockers (who's suddenly gone into hiding) made successive posts to the same thread in the same matters.

Not gone into hiding at all, I had made a promise to the admin not to get involved unless you specifically dragged me in, well I kept my end as I knew you would keep your end! As for Krungsiri looking ridiculous, well somebody does anyway, as the implication of your statement shown below, is indeed quite clear;

Krungsiri I haven't been friendly or collegial to you since you made a post with Mods-Rockers, a post which revealed the tip of the iceberg of your duplicity.

Despite being told by many that I have no personal knowledge of any of the teachers at Ektra, it suits your purpose to lie and claim otherwise, fair enough, few, if any believe the crappola you spew out anymore as is being shown by the posts on this thread and even more so by the thread in another place!

See my Reply #23 in which I stated that at least three (3) administrators at Sarasas Ektra school have both the telephone number and the email address of the former Nam Tok and could contact him at either at any time, to include Krungsiri.

I do so love the way you are wriggling like a worm on a hook here and elsewhere, with your pathetic attempts to distance your RST and Y****I personas from Namtok, by continually referring to him in the third person. Hoping to use that as evidence in your defense are you?

The fact is that Sarasas Ektra school owes the former Nam Tok a HUGE apology and the guarantee of a cessation of its ongoing, baseless, hostilities against the former Nam Tok that continue even to this date. 

Well actually, and by your own admission Ektra did make an apology to you regarding the minor incident with a cane, an apology I would r4emind you that you had admitted accepting. This acceptance would have been the end of the matter as far as any civilized person was concerned. You however, decided to make it into a vendetta under at least 5 usernames on different forums. This act of utter stupidity has cost your dearly, you are now the object of ridicule on more than one forum as many of the posts of the last few days will bear out. You are also by the looks of things firmly in the sights of the school with a view to litigation, I would imagine that when/if that happens your so called GAM may well jump on the bandwagon as well. Such litigation could well lead you towards a long term of imprisonment unless you could secure sufficient funds to pay the compensation that the school and the GAM may well demand, there goes the retirement fund, there goes any assets back home in the states, there goes any assets belonging to your family, that is if they think enough of you to bail you out. But hey keep up with the third person crapila, I am sure there are some who believe yu, even if they are figments of your own imagination!

Indeed, someone made a post the other day that some parents are sueing Sarasas Ektra for failing to provide the education promised to their children.

Well no, actually that’s another cexample of your inability to fully comprehend simple English. What the poster stated was that parents could sue if they wanted to, sadly few would ever want to and even fewer would carry it out! But you go on belieb\ving what you want to believe!

Krungsiri, you and I each know that getting into a slanging match is like, in your own words, "wrestling in quicksand".

I see that Krungsiri knows you well then! Too pigheaded to even contemplate that you are wrong and far too egotistical to ever admit it!

[RobRoy]

And believe it or not, I hope you do make it thru the storm...Personally I think an explanation/apology is in order, both to the teaching community and to the school, but either way I would suggest you really consider anything you say publicly.  Don't give the bastards any more ammo to shoot you with.

Sounds like I was giving you some support dude...but perhaps your head is stuck so far up your ass to realize it.

I'm clueless....its not ME a school is looking for.  Its not me being threatened with legal action.  
And I'm sick of the "former Namtok" stuff...you've admitted you're Namtok so why don't own up to it?  At the end of the day, the only one fooling yourself is you.

However, I'll say it again...

And believe it or not, I hope you do make it thru the storm...Personally I think an explanation/apology is in order, both to the teaching community and to the school, but either way I would suggest you really consider anything you say publicly.  Don't give the bastards any more ammo to shoot you with.

You should be asking why Sarasas Ektra school is notifying Teflwatch that it will sue Teflwatch and why Sarasas Ektra school is demanding that Teflwatch provide the identity of the former Teflwatcher Nam Tok to Sarasas under the threat of pains and penalties to both.

I would like to think that most posters on this forum and Ajarn know why dumbass...you told lies about the school.  You overexaggerated the problems there publicly and now the school is looking for you.  Just remember how understanding the slander laws are in Thailand..and the police, court system and jails are.  I'm sure your cellmates will appreciate your opinions of Thailand and Thai schools.

RST, they're looking for you...and lets face it, you are pretty easy to find.  Did you ever think the school, by asking politely for info first, then not getting it, will give them the excuse to REALLY come looking for you?  

But I'm clueless, remember.....

[RobRoy]

RST...Had a good bowel movement in the last couple of days?  I bet you're scared s..tless.  But, remember, as the good book says, you reap what you sow.

Hope you've got some money saved up....oh and remember you have talked about all of this under your current handle...the former Namtok BS won't fly as ALL your posts on here are public.  Best wishes, good luck and remember that cockroaches are good eats in a Thai prison.

[retiredstillteaching]

I did omit some expression of thanks or appreciation for your well wishes, Rob Roy, so I express them now---thanks for your rare and qualified statement of goodwill towards me. In the same statement you said I owe Sarasas Ektra an apology. You'll never be anything other than the whore that you are.

Indeed neither you nor Mods-Rockers are Teflwatchers. Neither has come to the unqualified and complete support of Teflwatch in this absurd matter. You and Mods-Rockers each is a witch (that's with a 'b' remember!) for schools and their owners and managers. Stop soiling this board with your scab garbage.

[Mods-Rockers]

I did omit some expression of thanks or appreciation for your well wishes, Rob Roy, so I express them now---thanks for your rare and qualified statement of goodwill towards me. In the same statement you said I owe Sarasas Ektra an apology. You'll never be anything other than the whore that you are.

Still with the attacks on any who do not follow your paradigm to the letter I see! Remind us again exactly why Namtok was banned from this forum?

Indeed neither you nor Mods-Rockers are Teflwatchers. Neither has come to the unqualified and complete support of Teflwatch in this absurd matter. You and Mods-Rockers each is a witch (that's with a 'b' remember!) for schools and their owners and managers. Stop soiling this board with your scab garbage.

Whilst I am quite certain that you believe that RR is also like me, or so you believe in league with the school, that is an unfortunate byproduct of your delusional state. Remind us all again how many posters have asked all your various usernames exactly what medication you are meant to be taking, but appear not to be taking as prescribed? I cannot speak for RR but I would assume that he does fall under the same category as myself in this matter, namely I am fully in support of the admins decisions on this matter. I firmly believe that this board serves a more than useful purpose for teachers both in Thailand and also globally! I do not however support a raving lunatic who by his actions has put the board in the predicament it now finds itself in! You claim on the other forum that following the apology from the school that you felt this matter to be closed. And yet your lie there is fully exposed on this forum where its quite obvious that from the day you invented Namtok you have done nothing but try and enact your revenge for an incident you claim is over and dome with!

How many posters, myself included have pleaded with you to drop the whole sorry tale, to get on with your life and try and find some happiness? How many times have those posters had it all thrown back in their faces as you go off on another rant about the school, inventing along the way even more ludicrous extensions to the tale until you find yourself where you are at this moment, in dire trouble with the school, but at the same time putting the admin of this forum in a predicament of trying to defend your sorry ass even though this boards administration has gladly banned three of your personas due to the shit they have placed on the board?

Your big mouth and even bigger ego has got you into this predicament and I doubt you can see a way out now, keep mouthing off though it merely gives the school more ammunition!

[retiredstillteaching]

You're wrong, wrong, wrong. And twisted up, very badly, Mods-Rockers. You misrepresent me without limit.

I'll say again, you have neither shame nor honour.

[Mods-Rockers]

[/quote]

You're wrong, wrong, wrong. And twisted up, very badly, Mods-Rockers. You misrepresent me without limit.

Wrong? Are you sure? Misrepresent? Oh come on!

Lets take a look, shall we?

“Still with the attacks on any who do not follow your paradigm to the letter”
So you are claoming I am wrong in this statement? Why even on this thread you show yourself to be a liar! Anyone who cares to go back over your career on this forum under various usernames can quite plainly see how you attack those who disagree with you!

“I see! Remind us again exactly why Namtok was banned from this forum?”
Ah so you don’t want to answer this question then?

“. Remind us all again how many posters have asked all your various usernames exactly what medication you are meant to be taking, but appear not to be taking as prescribed?”

Another misrepresentation? Well it’s pretty easy to find answers. simple searches against keywords like namtok, pibthong RST and medication will find a host of posts by various posters!

“You claim on the other forum that following the apology from the school that you felt this matter to be closed. And yet your lie there is fully exposed on this forum where its quite obvious that from the day you invented Namtok you have done nothing but try and enact your revenge for an incident you claim is over and dome with!” So are you stating that under your Y****i username over there you did not state this very evening, that you considered the issue closed when you had received your apology and pay rise, and yet on this forum months after that apology and pay rise you opened that can of worms again and again and … ad nauseam!!!

“How many posters, myself included have pleaded with you to drop the whole sorry tale, to get on with your life and try and find some happiness?” are you claiming that this is a misrepresentation? Are you claiming that no posters have ever asked you to drop it?  Are you claiming that you have never had such a request put to you?

“How many times have those posters had it all thrown back in their faces as you go off on another rant about the school, inventing along the way even more ludicrous extensions to the tale” So come on namtok, show where this is a misrepresentation!

“until you find yourself where you are at this moment, in dire trouble with the school,” So you are not in trouble with the school then? This whole thread and its mirror elsewhere are merely figments of the imagination? Come now namtok delusions are fine for a time, but you really have to wake up and smell the coffee, at least before its too late and you wake up to the acrid smell of the communal crapper you will find yourself sleeping next to in the prison!


[/quote]

I'll say again, you have neither shame nor honour.

Well someone has no honour that’s for sure, did you not admit recently that you broke your word to the five colleagues you claim were also caned just to make a point? Actually I am not sure if this counts, seeing as the five were figments of your delusions and thus can you break your word (be dishonorable) to a construct within your own private little delusional world?

[RobRoy]

I did omit some expression of thanks or appreciation for your well wishes, Rob Roy, so I express them now---thanks for your rare and qualified statement of goodwill towards me. In the same statement you said I owe Sarasas Ektra an apology. You'll never be anything other than the whore that you are.

There's no prostitution in the Kingdom of Thailand.  Just ask any government official.  I'm sure you'll have the chance to chat with a few soon.

Indeed neither you nor Mods-Rockers are Teflwatchers. Neither has come to the unqualified and complete support of Teflwatch in this absurd matter. You and Mods-Rockers each is a witch (that's with a 'b' remember!) for schools and their owners and managers. Stop soiling this board with your scab garbage.

And you are a "TEFLWatcher"...could you define the term, the requirements to become such an august personage.  How much support has  "TEFLwatchers" shown you...are people rallying behind the scenes with promises of money for your legal defense?  Are people saying the school is out of line for your slander for overexaggerating the events you claim to be a party to?  Explain please....and yes dickhead, I do have a clue...but do you realize how deep in the shit you are?

[Thai Me Up]

And believe it or not, I hope you do make it thru the storm...Personally I think an explanation/apology is in order, both to the teaching community and to the school, but either way I would suggest you really consider anything you say publicly.  Don't give the bastards any more ammo to shoot you with.

retiredstillteaching,
I think some posters are getting far ahead of themselves on this matter.  I sense that a couple are giddy with delight that you may be fending off a witchhunt.  Unfortunately, when there is a controversy, teachers tend to choose sides, and some choose a side that allows them to vent their pent-up spleen.  I don't think this follows the spirit of TW, but it is reality when a teacher is witchhunted.  It's important NOT to let imagined fears take over reality at this point.

I'd like to address RobRoy's suggestion.  Never, ever NEVER make an apology to an administrator or a public forum.  Apologies are viewed as 1) admissions of guilt, and 2) weakness.  Since you have severed your long-term relationship with SE and have no interest in returning there, you have NO NEED to dialogue with them.  If you receive any communication from them, seek legal counsel and have legal counsel respond on your behalf.  Thais are so cheap, they won't spend a baht on anything they don't need.  I doubt that a crummy school admin would pay for legal counsel when he has so many other fires to put out dealing with the here and now, and you, rst, are not a problem in his here and now.

I'm on your side guy...

[RobRoy]

Nemesis...any word from the school?

[RobRoy]

......  Thais are so cheap, they won't spend a baht on anything they don't need.  I doubt that a crummy school admin would pay for legal counsel when he has so many other fires to put out dealing with the here and now, and you, rst, are not a problem in his here and now.

I'm on your side guy...

Do you really ever know if the cheap Thai might feel like his school deserves to punish an argueably slanderous attack on his school?  He might think his school's reputation is worth the effort and can you imagine how it would look to the parents and the media if a farang was brought down for slandering a school? 

If this happens the director is a hero, both to the parents and the owners of the Sarasas group of schools.  He gets a nice pay raise.  If not, what has the director lost? After all Thais (I would assume this comment includes lawyers) are cheap.

But then again, what do I know.  But I do know in most cases the burden of proof in Thai law is on the accused.  With all the public postings, how could the director lose?

Good luck Namtok!

[retiredstillteaching]

Thanks fellow Teflwatchers for your support in posts you've made to this thread:

Thaighlander
Thai Me Up
angryfarang
between myths, to include your offer of financial support if I were to need it against Sarasas Ektra school
sir mouse burgher
sabai_sabai
Nick2007

and to other Teflwatchers who've contacted me by pm and/or who have made related posts to other threads.

Thanks to the many graduates of Sarasas Ektra School (and many of their parents) for organizing yourselves in recent days and for your first steps to work with me in my support against the school in this new and present difficulty with the school. You gave me strong support in 2005 after Sarasas Ektra wrote a wild letter to Thai Immigration in a miserably unsuccessful attempt to deport me. I appreciate your continued support in this, another time of difficulty between Sarasas Ektra school and myself.

[retiredstillteaching]

I'm currently consulting legal counsel and in contact with my embassy. Expect to hear sparingly from me from this point forward, thanks.

[RobRoy]

My feelings..both of them are hurt I didn't make the list....

Good luck Namtok! 

[Thai Me Up]

Do you really ever know if the cheap Thai might feel like his school deserves to punish an argueably slanderous attack on his school?  He might think his school's reputation is worth the effort and can you imagine how it would look to the parents and the media if a farang was brought down for slandering a school? 

If this happens the director is a hero, both to the parents and the owners of the Sarasas group of schools.  He gets a nice pay raise.  If not, what has the director lost? After all Thais (I would assume this comment includes lawyers) are cheap.

But then again, what do I know. 

Yes, this scenario is either 1) your imagined fear, or 2) wishful thinking on your part.

Reality is that the Director, NOT legal counsel, wrote a polite request to TW.  The letter falls far short of a "barking dog" letter which could have been or should have been written by an attorney.  Other than that, who can fathom the thinking of a Thai school director?

[RobRoy]

Yes, this scenario is either 1) your imagined fear, or 2) wishful thinking on your part.

Reality is that the Director, NOT legal counsel, wrote a polite request to TW.  The letter falls far short of a "barking dog" letter which could have been or should have been written by an attorney.  Other than that, who can fathom the thinking of a Thai school director?

I don't have anything to fear and I've said in the past I hope Namtok has good luck.  But as I tried to point out and as you said ......

"Other than that, who can fathom the thinking of a Thai school director?"  I agree 100%.  But the question is, after having his letter made public, what is his next move.  Does the director worry about other problems and lose face when Namtok starts bragging about how he "beat" the school?  I really can't see that happening.

 What's your opinion...do you think the director will back down or not?

[Gonzo]

I did try and warn NamTok that Sarasas was taking his allegations seriously and were intending to pursue legal avenues. This was near two years ago now. They are slower in moving on it than I thought they would be or perhaps they were willing to let it die and forget about it.

Good luck Namtok, listen to your legal counsel and be prepared to leave.
A Thai jail is not worth any amount of honour or principles.

 

[Thai Me Up]

I don't have anything to fear and I've said in the past I hope Namtok has good luck.  But as I tried to point out and as you said ......

"Other than that, who can fathom the thinking of a Thai school director?"  I agree 100%.  But the question is, after having his letter made public, what is his next move.  Does the director worry about other problems and lose face when Namtok starts bragging about how he "beat" the school?  I really can't see that happening.

 What's your opinion...do you think the director will back down or not?

1.  I don't see rst bragging about anything on this thread
2.  The director (again, NOT legal counsel) wrote a letter to teflwatch, NOT rst, and teflwatch told the director to take a long walk off a short pier, NOT rst
3.  School directors are primarily concerned with lining their own pockets
4.  Chasing rst is a losing proposition for the director - no deep pockets on a working teacher

thanks for asking

[retiredstillteaching]

Gonzo, you work or worked for Sarasas at another Sarasas school, right? (Not Ektra.)

[retiredstillteaching]

Whilst it is true that U have no love for Namtok, Retiredstillteaching et al, it does seem that his rants have finally caused Ektra to sharpen the knives. you are perfectly correct Nemisis when you state that the site is protected and Namtoks Indentity is thus protected via the site. However the school knows who he is, and can thus find him by other means. It seems that namtoks days in Thailand may be comoing to an end unless he is stupid enough to try and fight them!

Thai defamation laws are firstly criminal in nature and thus carry what can be a hefty jailterm and sadly the burden of proof often falls on the accused, the real person behind the namtok et al usernames would have to prove he was not Namtok, which I would say could be a tad difficult!

Mods-Rockers, you're salivating to see a Teflwatcher arrested, dragged off to jail, taken into court, convicted and imprisioned. You're also trying to minimize the great burden and difficulty the letter from your chum at Ektra to Teflwatch is causing to Teflwatch. You're working hard to give both Nemesis and yourself ulcers. Why? Because you're mad.

[Mods-Rockers]

3.  School directors are primarily concerned with lining their own pockets

You are quite correct that directors view the bottom line as a prime motive for anything. But Thai or Sino Thai directors View maintaining FACE even more! Loss of face can and often does affect the bottom line here.

4.  Chasing rst is a losing proposition for the director - no deep pockets on a working teacher

Now extrapolate the loss of face he will be feeling having his letter thrown back in his face, ever so politely but ever so publicly. Then chasing a poor farang does not seem too much of a losing proposition! The family will no doubt be having high level discussions about it right now!

[Mods-Rockers]

Mods-Rockers, you're salivating to see a Teflwatcher arrested, dragged off to jail, taken into court, convicted and imprisioned. You're also trying to minimize the great burden and difficulty the letter from your chum at Ektra to Teflwatch is causing to Teflwatch. You're working hard to give both Nemesis and yourself ulcers. Why? Because you're mad.

  An interesting take on things Namtok, did the implication in the following line fly right over your head again?

It seems that namtoks days in Thailand may be coming to an end unless he is stupid enough to try and fight them!
 

to me and most others that implies that I feel you would be stupid to try and fight a defamation case and thus thought your best plan would be to get the fcuk out of Thailand! Of course if you are saying that you are indeed stupid enough to stay and fight when its perfectly obvious to one and all that you are guilty (in the eyes of Thai law) of defamation.

Like the majority of Teflwatchers I would cheer if you did get out of Thailand, because I see little more than a long stay in the big house if you choose the other alternative! The vast majority of the advice you have received recently has been to disappear, whilst TMU has stated otherwise. If the majority is wrong and TMU right but you follow the majority then all it means is a fresh start in a country where less teachers know your reputation. However if, as seems most likely, the majority is right and TMU wrong but you follow him then you can probably look forward to repenting at your leisure eating roaches to supplement your meager diet!

[retiredstillteaching]

What's this "repent" shite you say I would or need to do? Wrong again. Indeed, I've said before, you haven't either shame or honour. Also,

Re: Your post at the bottom of p 4, You would know about the family that owns Sarasas, wouldn't you Mods-Rockers, and what the family is up to "right now"? You've been so obvious about your connection to them that I don't see how any regular around here could fail to connect you with them.

Yes, tell us you don't want to see a Teflwatcher in jail, court or prison. Tell us you don't want to see Teflwatch have to expend valuable and precious resources fighting off a legal hassle from owners of a discredited school. Tell us, indeed.

Well, rest assured I'll be out of Thailand before much longer. The past few months I'd been lining up teaching gigs in a couple of countries and recently decided on which country and school. Ask Krungsiri at Ektra: he can verify that I'd advised him before Pisut wrote his letter that I would be leaving Thailand in the forseeable future. (Strange developments recently, for sure!)

Pisut letter or no Pisut letter, I'd decided some time ago that 10 years in Thailand is much, much more than enuff. However, as you can read elsewhere, the cause will continue, my history here and its impact will remain.

Mods-Rockers, you're not a Teflwatcher and you never were one. I don't see how any regular at this board could miss that. You live to create flames among those who are honestly comitted to teaching; you live to cannibalize and to promote cannibalizing. That's all you are.

I'll miss not meeting you as I'd hoped could happen, meeting you face to face, man to man which you refuse to do. A one on one meeting is really something you can't do 'cause you ain't got the pair (except when face to face with the desktop screen).

Adios.

[RobRoy]

RST,

Nobody wants to see you or any one else in prison. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I'm fairly certain that even Mods doesn't really want that bad karma.  But dang dude, get real.

As you pointed out...Teflwatch ain't got any legal problems....its just perhaps you.

Myself and others have tried to give ya good advice, but you continue to whine and moan about the injustices that fellow teflwatchers are heaping upon you.  I don't care if you stay or leave Thailand...I only know you on here and there's an internet cafe in most places in the world now, so where you are matters not.  But what does matter is that you wake up, smell the coffee and realize you've got some problems that need resolving.  Instead of throwing around adjectives, throw around a bit of respect and see what you get back.  You'd probably be surprised who would help you, if you asked sincerely for their help.

My last shot at a reality check for you...wake up, smell the roses or you are liable to be really, really screwed.

[retiredstillteaching]

I'd be "really, really screwed"? That's broad and vague. Whadda you got that's specific that makes you know so much and be so certain, eh??? Speak now of specifics or forever hold your peace.

The board says you're online right now, so I'm waiting...

[RobRoy]

Get the quote right....I said LIABLE to be really, really screwed.  That makes it a general statement.  I have no idea of what the school is going to do.  Nor does anyone else, including you. 

Are you going to talk about calling the embassy to report this incident?  As a dedicated TEFLwatcher and one that is devoted to the founding principals of this website I would think you would disclose fully your actions that may affect this website.

[RobRoy]

Oh, and the board showing you're online now so I'm waiting!

[retiredstillteaching]

How kind and considerate of you...wait no longer I'm pleased to say...

I went to the US Embassy to report the caning to the legal affairs office. I also inquired as to other matters and received direct advice.

As to the caning, I can:

1. Take action thru the Embassy; or

2. Take action by consulting an attorney (Clifford Chance (Thailand) Ltd. seems to know their stuff relating to criminal law in Thailand); or

3  Take action by contacting the Tourist Police with the assistantce of Embassy staff. (I expressed my refusal to report the caning to the Police District in which Ektra school resides.); or

Pursue Option 1 only, or

Pursue Option 2 only, or

Pursue Options 1 & 3.

For the time being, I like option 1. Option 1 includes a criminal investigation by the Tourist Police, which are authorized to pursue criminal matters and in fact do every day.

As I said, I also inquired at the Embassy as to other legal matters, laws, rights, etc. The Embassy recommended legal counsel, with which I am in contact.

Does this post answer your questions? I hope so 'cause it's late and I'm tired of this crap for today, plus packing etc etc.

  

[RobRoy]

Yes, it does, thank...heck one day I might need to know this kind of info...I pray not, but you just never know.

You and I can go to the tourist police even when we're not tourists?  Maybe they should change their name to farang police.

Seriously, my wife knows a very good lawyer, she teaches her child. Husband and wife team, the wife is Filipino (and thus perhaps more sensitive to your needs) and the husband is Thai.  Both are board certified here.  PM me and I'll send you the details.

Can you explain the difference between option 1 and 3?  Both involve the tourist police.  Perhaps a procedural matter?

Get some rest as I'm sure you're stressed. 

What advice did the the embassy's "senior legal council" give?  Or was this from the legal council?

Why packing?

[Mods-Rockers]

What's this "repent" shite you say I would or need to do? Wrong again.

Another simple idea flying way over your head again! Try reading the whole paragraph again, this time try thinking!

Re: Your post at the bottom of p 4, You would know about the family that owns Sarasas, wouldn't you Mods-Rockers, and what the family is up to "right now"? You've been so obvious about your connection to them that I don't see how any regular around here could fail to connect you with them.

’Pisstake mode on’ Well yes I would, why at a dinner party with them last night to discuss future actions they were highly anused by my suggestion involving 4 stakes, an anthill, your naked boady and a jar of honey! ‘pisstake mode off’
Seriously, anyone with an iota of common sense will know that FACE and maintaining it is a major factor with Thais and Sino Thaïs in particular. Thus anyone with said iota of common sense could have worked that out, sadly you were never able to do so and thus you find yourself in this present situation!

Yes, tell us you don't want to see a Teflwatcher in jail, court or prison.

On defamation charges, under Thai law, most certainly I would never want to see anyone teflwatcher or otherwise pulled in, I find the defamation laws here draconian to say the least. However I would love to see you back in the states and the school be able to sue you there for the same thing, Your inability to back up your claims would vindicate them cause you a severe loss, and hopefully as the extent of your madness became apparent you would be ordered to get some help from a reputable shrink!

Tell us you don't want to see Teflwatch have to expend valuable and precious resources fighting off a legal hassle from owners of a discredited school. Tell us, indeed.

Not only don’t I want to see it, but I seriously don’t think it will happen, I feel that the board has indeed been put into a situation that it does not need although can make capitol over if things progree, I feel sorry that due to the slanderous rants of one obviously deranged man (you) the board find itself in the present situation, but that is water under the bridge, maybe in future the rants of those the mods believed to be misguided will be removed sooner and thus prevent a similar situation again!

Well, rest assured I'll be out of Thailand before much longer. The past few months I'd been lining up teaching gigs in a couple of countries and recently decided on which country and school. Ask Krungsiri at Ektra: he can verify that I'd advised him before Pisut wrote his letter that I would be leaving Thailand in the forseeable future. (Strange developments recently, for sure!)

Well, if as you claim, I am in the employ of the school then surely I would have known about this already, did you not claim only a few posts ago that Krungsiri and myself were in bed together on this, logic breakdown again! Well no, not really you have never shown logic in any way on this or other forums, you only show rants!

Pisut letter or no Pisut letter, I'd decided some time ago that 10 years in Thailand is much, much more than enuff. However, as you can read elsewhere, the cause will continue, my history here and its impact will remain.

  Of course we believe that your move is a pre planned evolution, NOT! You are perfectly correct however when you state “my history here and its impact will remain” you will always be remembered as the so called teacher who got his fanny well and truly caned!!!!

[Gonzo]

Yes, I still work for a Sarasas campus and I was a head of department for two years at one as well. I'm leaving in a few months time after nearly 7 years with them.

I heard the rumours of your intended pursuit from the director of my sector along with a caution about my own postings both here and in the other place. They know my usernames by association which should stand as proof of two things: Thais are not as dumb as many farangs like to think they are, and what you do say on here and other boards can come back and haunt you.

I'll see what I can find out about your case Namtok but the admin at my school are mostly minor underlings and are likely to know nothing about it.

[Thai Me Up]

retiredstillteaching,
I think you are wise to focus on your future, and to unfocus from the mean-spirited armchair quarterbacking offered by posters of this message board.

The reality of witchunts is that they take on a life of their own, far exceeding the scope of the original incident.  However, unless you say something else has happened, all I see is a polite letter from a school director, NOT an attorney, sent to an American web site.  You don't seem to be in a direct struggle with the school at this point.  Is this correct?

I'm not sure if there is a statute of limitations on a minor battery incident in Thailand, but if you feel "covered" by reporting the incident to the US Embassy, then you should sleep better tonight.  I don't think I press forward with assault charges...to do so would force the school director to respond to you and then you may be in more hot water than you bargained for.  This is my armchair quarterbacking, and I do wish you all the best.

[bomha]

Nemesis did nothing wrong, legally, to post the directors letter to TEFLWatch on the board.  After all, TEFLWatch is a public place, and they were not exchanging PM's.  Besides, Nemesis is not real; he is a nik, a virtual phantom.  In fact, Nemesis is a 78 year old hag on the Anatolian coast, hunting polar bears that are absent.  If the director wishes to lose face by sending a letter to a public forum, let him hoist himself on his own petard (how does one do that, anyway?).

[Thai Me Up]

Nemesis did nothing wrong, legally, to post the directors letter to TEFLWatch on the board.  After all, TEFLWatch is a public place, and they were not exchanging PM's.  Besides, Nemesis is not real; he is a nik, a virtual phantom.

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.  I'm crossing my fingers that Nemesis DID at least TRY to contact the teacher in question before publishing the director's letter.  As for his being a "virtual phantom," well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's mischief.  Is driving site traffic to TW really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed?  No street smarts, I'd say.

[RobRoy]

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.

Ethically, slandering a school might get a poster in hot water too.  But just because Nemesis published the letter doesn't hurt Yanqui at all, as the school had already formed an opinion about Namtok's actions and decided to go looking for RST.  All they (the school) did (crazily enough) is try to force TW to help.

....well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he (RST, added by RR for clarity) must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's (Nemesis) mischief. 

Do you really think RST is having problems because Nemesis made the letter public?  Well, the school is a real school, in a real country that perhaps has taken execption to his apparent continous slander.  After all, its only been continous for 4 years.
 
My last comment on this post is...If dipshite RST is so sure of his position (he mentioned on the other board the legal council said that this "attack" was criminal assault) why is he packing his bags and running?  Why doesn't he have the ethical and moral fiber to stand up to the school publicly.  And publicly means in a court, not as a "phantom" on an internet forum.  Many teachers have successfully sued schools here.  Why doesn't Namtok stand up to the school?  He goes on about standing up for TEFL'ers, TEFLwatch and teachers in general...why doesn't he do something publicly now that the school's given him the opportunity to see that this kind of "ambush" never happens again.

[between myths]

"

My last comment on this post is...

M

Point pleasurably noted.

[RobRoy]

BW

Thanks for your contribution, but next time could you share your esteemed thoughts and opinions on the topic at hand? 

[between myths]

(49 minutes is a rather weak effort) Please be strong and in time your assurances of appropriate silence will again win you the respect of your peers.

[RobRoy]

Naw, I don't have to worry about respect, I respect myself and thats really, really all any man needs...but did you share your opinions on this thread...share your thoughts on the topic..or are you just trying to bust my ass?  I welcome your thoughts and opinions.  Care to actually put some effort and thought behind your opinions?

I look forward to a real discourse concerning the matter of OUR forum.  Its up to all of us to decide how our forum to proceed from here as some issues that we, as a community, need to face.

Such as, when do we notify a school that someone is posting about them?  Do we ever notify a school that there is a person talking shite about them.  If so, under what circumstances?

What should be the guidelines that we, as a community say, enough is enough.  Not only from schools, but from teachers as well?  Where is the difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a teacher slandering a school?  How do we, as a reputable group become a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools and thus win the respect of both?

And if you looking to bust my ass, you need to be packing more than a myth...I would suggest starting with a opinion on the topic.  As I recall the topic was an open letter to Sarasas...but is the myth or the meth getting to much for your conscience to handle dude?  Is expressing, you know, like an opinion, on topic too deep for you or are you to far above posting about such mundane matters. 

But then again...what do I know and my comment was "my last comment on this post"...meaning the last TMU's post.  But I'm sure because your mind is on higher things that little things like that go unnoticed.

[retiredstillteaching]

RST,

Nobody wants to see you or any one else in prison. I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I'm fairly certain that even Mods doesn't really want that bad karma.  But dang dude, get real.

As you pointed out...Teflwatch ain't got any legal problems....its just perhaps you.

Myself and others have tried to give ya good advice, but you continue to whine and moan about the injustices that fellow teflwatchers are heaping upon you.  I don't care if you stay or leave Thailand...I only know you on here and there's an internet cafe in most places in the world now, so where you are matters not.  But what does matter is that you wake up, smell the coffee and realize you've got some problems that need resolving.  Instead of throwing around adjectives, throw around a bit of respect and see what you get back.  You'd probably be surprised who would help you, if you asked sincerely for their help.

My last shot at a reality check for you...wake up, smell the roses or you are liable to be really, really screwed.

Do save your sanctimonous lecture in the 3rd paragraph for those who would be susciptible to such tripe. You're a person who believes that teachers slander schools, which is all I need to know, as if I hadn't already seen your orientation in favor of schools, owners, bosses vs the working stiffs who historically have suffered or died to secure their rights and respect in the workplace.

Mods-Rockers stated in a post that he's since erased that he was forwarding 3 of my Teflwatch pm's to the persons at Ektra who are named in the pm's. Mods Rokers made the post that, as I say, is now deleted by none other than Mods-Rockers himself, before Pisut's letter of September 26th. Mods-Rockers deleted the post he'd made announcing he was forwarding my pm's to to the named persons at Ektra, which yet again verifies Mods-Rockers connection to and contacts with Ektra. It's a blatant case of Mods-Rockers using the Teflwatch board in order to cover his tracks after the Pisut letter of 26-9. Mods-Rockers can run but he can't hide from his one year campaign against myself especially at Teflwatrch but which includes other Teflwatcvhers, a campaign which I might add has gone uncheked and unrestrained by the higher ups at TEflwatch.

Sarasas Ektra owns Mods-Rockers, has Mods-Rockers in their hip pocket which is where he plays pocket pool with whom ever it is that happens to have M-R in his hip pocket at a given time. Why, Rob Roy, don't you pay attention to such posts by Mods-Rockers as the one Mods-Rockers deleted, a post which definitively, unmistakably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, connects Mods-Rockers to farang at Ektra sepcifically and by name?

Unless and until you do, your priorities will remain as unsidedown, insideout and backwards as are those of Mods-Rockers.

To my knowledge Mods-Rockers indeed never has been in the employ of Sarasas, but he sure took a liking to them and quickly became an integral part of the Axis of Evil that includes Sarasas Ektra. For a year now, Mods-Rockers has been delivering to the Teflwarch board the lies of the Buffalo at Ektra, the ugly, vile, vicious, malicious and malevolent lies that the Buffalo begain against Nam Tok in 2004 and continues to force into circulation to this day. Mods-Rockers is part of that, an important part of that, especially towards the goal of splintering and rendering ineffective Teflwatch as a watchdog of rotten schools.  

[RobRoy]

RST...I only wrote one paragraph in the quote you made...the rest were sentences.

[retiredstillteaching]

Nemesis did nothing wrong, legally, to post the directors letter to TEFLWatch on the board.  After all, TEFLWatch is a public place, and they were not exchanging PM's.  Besides, Nemesis is not real; he is a nik, a virtual phantom.

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.  I'm crossing my fingers that Nemesis DID at least TRY to contact the teacher in question before publishing the director's letter.  As for his being a "virtual phantom," well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's mischief.  Is driving site traffic to TW really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed?  No street smarts, I'd say.

No, the teacher at issue was not contacted by Teflwatch about Pisut Yongkamol's email scan letter to Teflwarch. No contact or consultation was made. In one respect, there could have been reasonable and meaningful discouse of some impact and coordinated effectiveness between Nemesis and the teacher had the teacher been contacted by Nemeisi before Nemesis on his own decided the email letter was rightfully made public.

Conversely, perhaps some distance might be necessary desirable betwee Nemesis and the teacher at issue, in which case no contact might be justified.

I tend to believe the former might have been the better course of action, as some coordinated response from the two principals named in Pisut's letter would be needed to counter the power and majeste of the Sarasas billion baht empire against one lowly teacher.   

[RobRoy]

RST,

I agree...I'm a big boy and only form my opinions from what you say about your situation. You really do deserve that respect.  I know you and Mods have problems, and to me, thats not important, its about taking care of things now and continuing the support system we're sharing.  I realize that people might try and hide evidence and know that getting people to understand the situation is understandably hard, but with your continued diligence and support, teachers here in Thailand will benefit.  Remember when Vietnam fell and they Commies killed all the "academics"?  You are in the same situation here, only not being threatened with death or life long imprisonment.

How is the legal council thing going...my wife mentioned your difficulties today to a lawyer and she said she would help.

[Mods-Rockers]

Yawn, namtok you really should try and remember what you have stated before, that way yoou will look less of a fool when you contradict yourself! First you state that I am in the employ of the school group then you state the opposite!

You state the truth that I gave up my mod position to concentrate on you and then you claim that I still have mod privileges and can delete posts!

Here is an idea give me permission to make public on this forum, the three PM’s you talk about! Nah your credibility index is dropping like a stone just from your own words on the forum. There is absolutely no need for any more damning evidence against you!

I love the way your street cred is being torn to pieces over on the other forum. It seems that you are not being torn one, two or even three new assholes but a whole universe full of new namtok assholes, still I guess that will allow you to spew more shite!!!!!

[retiredstillteaching]

Ethically, slandering a school might get a poster in hot water too.  But just because Nemesis published the letter doesn't hurt Yanqui at all, as the school had already formed an opinion about Namtok's actions and decided to go looking for RST.  All they (the school) did (crazily enough) is try to force TW to help.

....well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he (RST, added by RR for clarity) must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's (Nemesis) mischief. 

Do you really think RST is having problems because Nemesis made the letter public?  Well, the school is a real school, in a real country that perhaps has taken execption to his apparent continous slander.  After all, its only been continous for 4 years.
 
My last comment on this post is...If dipshite RST is so sure of his position (he mentioned on the other board the legal council said that this "attack" was criminal assault) why is he packing his bags and running?  Why doesn't he have the ethical and moral fiber to stand up to the school publicly.  And publicly means in a court, not as a "phantom" on an internet forum.  Many teachers have successfully sued schools here.  Why doesn't Namtok stand up to the school?  He goes on about standing up for TEFL'ers, TEFLwatch and teachers in general...why doesn't he do something publicly now that the school's given him the opportunity to see that this kind of "ambush" never happens again.

[/quote]


The post below is by me, retiredstillteaching. The two quotes above are from a post made by Rob Roy.

What slander? By the laws of Old World, 3rd World, military coup governed Thailand?!?

Rob Roy, I've been standing up to Sarasas Ektra school far and beyone what other techers have accomplished in respect to proprietary schools in Thailand, especially considering that Sarasas Affilliated Schools is a billion baht empire in Thailand. In but one significant instance, in 2005 Ektra wrote a letter on school stationery, letterhead and school seal etc to the Bureau of Immigration, trying for no valid or good reason in even Thai law to deport me.

The letter fell flat as it containted no specific charges on anything, consisting instead of the same kind of raging and ranting Mods-Rockers is notorious for. Accordingly, Immi dismissed the letter and put it in another Immi file (crank letters I think) instead of depositing it in my file and computer records, which actions attest that some people at Immi have somesense, intelligence or good judgement---or perhaps all three and maybe then some.

Since when am I "packing my bags and running?"  The past few months I've been looking at several countries and at a number of schools at which I might want to travel to continue my teaching of English in East Asia. I received some good responses and have reached an agreement with a school in another country. As I've stated, 10 years in Thailand is much, much too many. I've been ready to move on for at least the past year. Presently I'm in my best financial situation in a year to meet the costs of such a move. I'd mentioned this fact to Krungsiri, the Ektra administrator, before the Pisut letter. (The latter fact is perhaps food for thought it itself.)

I'd love to stay and to hammer Ektra about the caning. I actually needn't leave immediately to my new life outside of Thailand, so I began exploring the pursuit of the caning case as the criminal assault case that it is. When in discussions with US Embassy legal counsels I absolutely refused to report the criminal assault to the Police District station in which Ektra school is located, the Embassy counsel suggested the Tourist Police, as the TP do criminal investigation work as a part of their job. My reaction to the Embassy's suggestion that the Tourist Police be brought into the criminal assault investigation left me muttering to myself about why I long ago hadn't thought of approaching that particular law enforcement group, members of which have good to decent English and strongly tend to be open to foreigners, especially farang. (However, my immediate response to the embassy legal counsels was that I'm not a tourist, the counsels quickly explained to me that the TP would allow me to circumvent the District Police Ektra owns.)       

Option 1 costs less, has the direct involvement of embassy staff, a better police unit to do the necessary work and keeps me in contact and working with my embassy legal staff and with its citizen services section. Sounds good to me. Maybe I could pay the "slander" fine with the judgement and punitive award for pain and suffering that Ektra would have to pay for its criminal assault against me. I've been slandered too concerning the caning both here but especially at the other site.   

[retiredstillteaching]

Yawn, namtok you really should try and remember what you have stated before, that way yoou will look less of a fool when you contradict yourself! First you state that I am in the employ of the school group then you state the opposite!

You state the truth that I gave up my mod position to concentrate on you and then you claim that I still have mod privileges and can delete posts!

Here is an idea give me permission to make public on this forum, the three PM’s you talk about! Nah your credibility index is dropping like a stone just from your own words on the forum. There is absolutely no need for any more damning evidence against you!

I love the way your street cred is being torn to pieces over on the other forum. It seems that you are not being torn one, two or even three new assholes but a whole universe full of new namtok assholes, still I guess that will allow you to spew more shite!!!!!

You'd love to see me, as you've stated, eating cockroaches in a Thai prison for the rest of my life. So many have pm'd me to state that you're a complete jerk. Nonetheless, you're dangerous in your Axis of Evil connections with Sarasas Ektra in particular over the past 12 or so months. Playing with the pm's is one such example. You haven't any intention of posting those pm's to the board, which you in your IT expertise control, but you want raise a hackle about it.

The fact remains that, after the letter from Pisut at Ektra, you yourself deleted the post you'd made that you were going to forward the 3 pm's I'd sent to you about certain persons at Ektra to the named persons at Ektra. The facts clearly show that you inadvertently admit to an intimate connection with Sarasas Ektra school. I know this is true and fact, and I know it's been so for a year now because I continue to have a network of contacts at Sarasas Ektra, to include younger siblings and relative of the many graduates I continue to be in contact with (and who once again are stirring in my defense as they did against the Sarasas Ektra bogus letter to Immi in 2005 attempting to deport me and which Immi binned).

You're a Sarasas Ektra ventriloqist. That's DUMMY in English.

[retiredstillteaching]

RST...I only wrote one paragraph in the quote you made...the rest were sentences.

A finer point, indeed, but there is such a thing as a one sentence paragraph.

[RobRoy]

As you've said, you have spent so much time standing up to SE it would be a shame to waste all that effort.  Fight the school and stand up for teacher abuse!  I agree that option 1 is probably the best and I'm sure with your experience and expertise you can successfully stand against the axis of evil.  You've spent a lot of energy in fighting this injustice..why not stay until the end?

[RobRoy]

RST,
After all of your vocal condemnation of SE, if you don't follow through, what does that say about you, teachers and the rest of us to the evil schools?  We are looking for your guidance, your leadership and finally your wisdom to get us as teachers thru this crisis.  Someone has to be the trailblazer, like Louis and Clark, Abercrombie and Fitch  and Margaret Thatcher.  Your experiences now will be the guidelines used in future problems like this.  Do you want to be know as the teacher that "cut and run"?  Or the teacher that stood up and said "This isn't right!"

The choice is yours!

[RobRoy]

And please post on Ajarn...I know you have many detractors there, but some do support you...

[retiredstillteaching]

I've stated before that Ajarn is a cesspool of bottom of the barrel farang teachers, 90-day wonders who have to report regularly to immigration, have to make visa runs rather than get the clear one year visa I always get, groverlors after low paying and the lowest quality jobs, poorly educated in their own country...I could go on.

Yet Mods-Rockers wants me to visit ajarn because, to M-R's thrill and great delight, some of the dregs there are supposedly ragging on me. They and Mods-Rockers are two of a kind, ie, guttersnipes. I don't have time these days---and for some time now---to spend much time or effort at the Ajarn forum, but thanks anyway.

[Nemesis]

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.  I'm crossing my fingers that Nemesis DID at least TRY to contact the teacher in question before publishing the director's letter.  As for his being a "virtual phantom," well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's mischief.  Is driving site traffic to TW really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed?  No street smarts, I'd say.

Thai Me Up, I really don't like your attitude. They already wanted to get this guy into hot water. By shining light onto what this Pisut wants to do, now EVERYONE who reads this site knows what this guy is trying to do and they can't attack him like a theif in the night.

Or would you prefer keeping silence and having someone dealt with the Thai way? As I said in the my letter, I'm not going to help them attack another teacher and I am not going to be silent while they do it. And I don't care about site traffic, what I do care about is shining the light on evil. What do you care about, Thai Me Up? Arguing in public? What I get from your posts is that you don't think teachers should have a voice against bad schools.

What should be the guidelines that we, as a community say, enough is enough.  Not only from schools, but from teachers as well?  Where is the difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a teacher slandering a school?  How do we, as a reputable group become a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools and thus win the respect of both?

Schools don't notify teachers that they are on a blacklist, TEFLWatch affords the same protections to schools. And RR, we are are not a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools. That's never been our modus operandi. We are a beacon of fairness to teachers. We are slanted on the side of the teachers. That's what being pro-teacher is all about.

Difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a school slandering a teacher? A big difference, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I'll preface this by saying I'm Christian, not because I'm a bible thumper because I'm not, just that it peppers my opinion.

Slander and screwing are different things. But let's look at what's the difference between a school slandering a teacher and a teacher slandering a school. It's both not right. But look how often it happens. I have never heard a school NOT slander a teacher who left in the middle of the term, remember slander is saying lies about someone. He left because his mom is sick, he left because he is bad teacher, whatever. Never the truth. Never, he left because he thought the school was not good. The same, I don't think we have ever had a teacher come on here and say outright complete lies about a school and then let the comments stand. Schools tend to slander, teachers don't.

Screwing over? How can a teacher screw over a school? Do a midnight run in the middle of the term with all the grades. We all know that happens and it's bad because it affects the students. But ask why the teacher left like that? More than likely it is because of some injustice the school has done. Teachers do it because they feel they have no other choice and they are likely pushed into it.

Ok what about schools screwing over teachers? They don't give them their final salaries, they fire them at the end of the term before bonuses are paid out, they hold them prisoners, they play games, you steal salaries, they cane them, you name it, we've seen it here. All of this makes leaving in the middle of the term with all the grades seem pretty sedate, especially with the value of grades in a place like Thailand. Everyone passes.

But above who slanders more or who screws over more, schools and teachers have a master/servant, employee/employer relationship. To me, this means schools have a responsiblity to make sure that their employees are taken care of before they get a new mercedes, they have a responsibility to take the moral high road. They have a responsibility to not slander and not screw over teachers, EVEN if a teacher is slandering and screwing them over. You read what the schools want and they want teachers who are more ethical and moral than they are. Ha! It's not how it was intended.

They believe in a double standard, but I don't. I believe the leaders, whether the boss or the Prime Minister, needs to be of higher moral fabric than the underlings.

[Mods-Rockers]

Nemisis the above seems to read; School and the MOE will not take the moral high ground so why should we? Surely its far better to show the way rather than pouting because the bosses will not lead the way.

There is an old military maxim; 'its always better to fight from the high ground' and whilst the battle between schools and teachers, and I don't deny that it is a real battle, is not fought with guns and bullets but with concepts. by not taking the moral high ground we are basically saying to the schools; seeing as you will not fight by our rules we will fight by yours! I dare say they will be happy with that as they have far more experience with their way!

By taking the high ground and applying western concepts of fairness, we will effectively wrong foot their battle plans and whilst still bloody we should be able to continually gain ground. However fighting by their rules is surely a road to complete and utter defeat!

[Mods-Rockers]

You're a Sarasas Ektra ventriloqist. That's DUMMY in English.

Its very rare that you are correct and sadly this is another example of your being wrong. A ventriloquist (please note the correct use of the letter ‘u’ after the letter ‘q’) is the person holding and playing with the dummy. So if I am the ventriloquist, then surely that makes you the DUMMY!

But seeing as I am not the only one playing you for a fool than I guess that makes a whole squadron of ventriloquists to your bare platoon of DUMMIES! Unfair I know, but frankly I don’t give a damn!

[bomha]

TEFLWatch is pro-teacher, and that does not include making excuses for truly bad, evil, unprofessional teachers.  We are far higher ground than most of the schools.  If we were perfect, they would crucify us.

But what is so evil about doing a runner from an insane asylum when you are sane?   It is no big deal to neglect to turn in 'marks' that are meaningless, marks which will be altered however the evil school wishes to alter them! 

My mate gave notice, had an accident, and left town with the 'marks.'  He was going to call them and ask if they wanted the marks, but waited for them to call him.  They never called.  He let them keep 700 baht of earned salary; he said that made them all even.   

I am watching some movie like "Alien" or "Specie".  When the monster is trying to destroy you, it is all right to run away. 

[Mods-Rockers]

 

   It is no big deal to neglect to turn in 'marks' that are meaningless, marks which will be altered however the evil school wishes to alter them! 

 

Surely neglecting to turn in marks merely ensures that meaningless marks are allocated!

[los_teacher]

Surely a professional teacher remains professional even when working at an unprofessional school.

Doing a runner is decidedly not professional.  No 'real' teacher would do this except in the case of family emergency or not being paid.

Teachers must hold themselves to a higher standard than 'business people' and administrators.  If a person is unwilling to do this, they should find another profession.

This does not mean a teacher must continue working at a school that is mistreating them.  It simply means that because there are students involved and the students are the ones who will be hurt most, a teacher is obligated to give a proper notice to a school before leaving.  Otherwise the teacher is directly harming the students.  It doesn't matter if the school chooses to harm the students, that is a separate issue entirely.  It is the moral and ethical duty of any teacher to not cause harm to students.

[Mods-Rockers]

Well stated LT greenie on the way!

[Nemesis]

Surely a professional teacher remains professional even when working at an unprofessional school.

Doing a runner is decidedly not professional.  No 'real' teacher would do this except in the case of family emergency or not being paid.

Teachers must hold themselves to a higher standard than 'business people' and administrators.  If a person is unwilling to do this, they should find another profession.

This does not mean a teacher must continue working at a school that is mistreating them.  It simply means that because there are students involved and the students are the ones who will be hurt most, a teacher is obligated to give a proper notice to a school before leaving.  Otherwise the teacher is directly harming the students.  It doesn't matter if the school chooses to harm the students, that is a separate issue entirely.  It is the moral and ethical duty of any teacher to not cause harm to students.

I have to disagree, Los_teacher, because you are missing the mark. You say no real teacher would do such a thing, but what is a real teacher anyways? Your definition of a real teacher I am sure is at odds with what just about every school in Thailand calls a real teacher.

A real bonafide professional teacher can be someone with a pulse, a passport for a western country and a paper that SAYS they have a 4 year degree. High moral fiber? Aint seen that in a job ad in awhile. Just look at the hiring requirements of most schools if you doubt that. 

I am also gonna have to disagree with you about the standards of business people and administrators. I am sorry, I believe that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best. When someone isn't doing their very best, they need to be called on it. To say that it's ok that business people and school administrators are not doing their best and that's to be expected, I think that's just plain wrong and sounds like an admin cop-out.

[Mods-Rockers]

I have to disagree, Los_teacher, because you are missing the mark. You say no real teacher would do such a thing, but what is a real teacher anyways? Your definition of a real teacher I am sure is at odds with what just about every school in Thailand calls a real teacher.

A real bonafide professional teacher can be someone with a pulse, a passport for a western country and a paper that SAYS they have a 4 year degree. High moral fiber? Aint seen that in a job ad in awhile. Just look at the hiring requirements of most schools if you doubt that. 

I am also gonna have to disagree with you about the standards of business people and administrators. I am sorry, I believe that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best. When someone isn't doing their very best, they need to be called on it. To say that it's ok that business people and school administrators are not doing their best and that's to be expected, I think that's just plain wrong and sounds like an admin cop-out.

I hate disagreeing with the administration but sometimes there is a need, Nemisis I would say you are missing the mark here! You are quite correct that ‘high moral fiber’ is not normally stated in hiring requirements for teachers, in much the same way ‘able to breathe unaided’ and ‘able to speak English’ is not. Why? Well frankly they are givens, you will not send your children to be educated at a school that did not expect ‘high moral fibre’ from its teachers in much the same way as you would not send your children to be taught at a school that placed a rotting cadaver in the teachers seat.

I totally agree with you that “that every has a equal responsibility to do their very best.” However you seem to be implying that because the businesspeople and administrators in Thailand don’t hold up their side of the bargain that we should sink to their level! I am sorry to say that my own personal set of ethics would not allow me to be like that, I refuse to be a fool just because I sometimes have to work with fools, I refuse to be corrupt just because I work in a corrupt society, I refuse to lower my moral stance simply because my bosses have no morals!

[RobRoy]

I know I used the term slander...the proper term is libel (at least in American law).  But both are about spoken / written words that are intended to cause harm  to the reputation to the person being spoken of.

Schools don't notify teachers that they are on a blacklist, TEFLWatch affords the same protections to schools. And RR, we are are not a beacon of fairness to both teachers and schools. That's never been our modus operandi. We are a beacon of fairness to teachers. We are slanted on the side of the teachers. That's what being pro-teacher is all about.

I do agree that supporting teachers is the the function of this forum, but does it support the teaching community by publishing remarks over the course of years that are patently untrue, even by the posters admission?  Lets face it, how many times as the poster in question contradicted himself?  Does pro-teacher mean supporting a teacher, even when he's lying?  If so, what does that say about us as a group?  And yes, I realize that the truth is based on our own take on reality, but dang, RST is way over the top.
At wht point do we pick an obvious truth over a teacher?

How many blacklisted teachers do you know?  I don't know any.  And if you are blacklisted you can appeal it to the MOE.  Apparently the school posted that an apology was given and accepted.  They made their "appeal" to the forum.  Are you surprised the lawyers are getting involved?  At what point does the mod team get together and say "ENOUGH!"

Difference between a school screwing over a teacher and a school slandering a teacher? A big difference, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I'll preface this by saying I'm Christian, not because I'm a bible thumper because I'm not, just that it peppers my opinion.

Slander and screwing are different things. But let's look at what's the difference between a school slandering a teacher and a teacher slandering a school. It's both not right. But look how often it happens. I have never heard a school NOT slander a teacher who left in the middle of the term, remember slander is saying lies about someone. He left because his mom is sick, he left because he is bad teacher, whatever. Never the truth. Never, he left because he thought the school was not good. The same, I don't think we have ever had a teacher come on here and say outright complete lies about a school and then let the comments stand. Schools tend to slander, teachers don't.

Screwing over? How can a teacher screw over a school? Do a midnight run in the middle of the term with all the grades. We all know that happens and it's bad because it affects the students. But ask why the teacher left like that? More than likely it is because of some injustice the school has done. Teachers do it because they feel they have no other choice and they are likely pushed into it.

Ok what about schools screwing over teachers? They don't give them their final salaries, they fire them at the end of the term before bonuses are paid out, they hold them prisoners, they play games, you steal salaries, they cane them, you name it, we've seen it here. All of this makes leaving in the middle of the term with all the grades seem pretty sedate, especially with the value of grades in a place like Thailand. Everyone passes.

But above who slanders more or who screws over more, schools and teachers have a master/servant, employee/employer relationship. To me, this means schools have a responsiblity to make sure that their employees are taken care of before they get a new mercedes, they have a responsibility to take the moral high road. They have a responsibility to not slander and not screw over teachers, EVEN if a teacher is slandering and screwing them over. You read what the schools want and they want teachers who are more ethical and moral than they are. Ha! It's not how it was intended.

They believe in a double standard, but I don't. I believe the leaders, whether the boss or the Prime Minister, needs to be of higher moral fabric than the underlings.

I don't believe in a double standard either.  I'm a professional and will act that way, even when the school doesn't.  If the school is acting poorly, does that mean I should stoop to their level?  Do I act irresponsible just because the school is?  I have to get up and look in the mirror every morning....when I hear excuses for unprofessional actions by a teacher, does that really comment on the school or the teacher?  Am I saying schools don't pull every trick in the book?  No, of course not, but that doesn't mean teachers have to either, usually there are several options for a teacher.  Doing a runner should be the last.

How many members have posted lately about being screwed over here in Thailand?  I would say that the trend is that schools are starting to realize that farangs can/will sue and therefore are being a bit more careful.  This forum has helped tremendously in that regard as well.

Why should my directors morals be higher than mine?  There's only one person who's morals I look to for guidance and he died a couple of thousand years ago.  I try and set my goals higher than a mortal could display.  But thats just me....what do I know?

[los_teacher]

M-R and Rob Roy, I think we are in agreement.

Nemesis, I understand your position.  It is difficult to not become cynical when working in the types of schools that are all too common in this country, and other countries as well.  But I think it is important to not lose sight of the purpose of the profession - to teach.  Even in the worst of schools with the worst of students a good teacher can have moderate success. 

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

[wangsuda]

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

This is the true definition of a teacher. It's something I've tried to live up to (although not always successfully) for the almost 10 years I've been teaching.

[RobRoy]

M-R and Rob Roy, I think we are in agreement.

Nemesis, I understand your position.  It is difficult to not become cynical when working in the types of schools that are all too common in this country, and other countries as well.  But I think it is important to not lose sight of the purpose of the profession - to teach.  Even in the worst of schools with the worst of students a good teacher can have moderate success. 

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

Very well put...at the end of the day, its the committment to the students that defines whether a person is a teacher or someone thats just filling a job for selfish reasons.  And because of our committment to our students we try and act as role models for them, even when no one else is.  Because of this it means that teachers and the teaching community does have to have a higher ethical ideals.  A measure of these ethics should be that we act as professionals, role models and inspirations to not only to our students, but also to the school, even when others are being less than ethical to us.  Thats the measure of a person...does he hold to his morals in the face of adversity or fold.

[Nemesis]

To me, being a 'real' teacher, means having the 'heart' of a teacher.  It is a higher calling that entails a certain amount of sacrifice.  It is a noble profession and not suitable for everyone.  I think the Thai traditional value of 'teachers' being just a step or two below monks/clergy is fairly close to the mark.  It doesn't mean teachers are perfect, or that they must be moral in every aspect of their lives.  It doesn't mean that teachers should accept a poverty level salary, or slave-like work conditions.  It does, however, mean that when push comes to shove a teacher will put the interests of the students above their own personal interests.  That is the mark of a 'real' teacher.

And I am glad we are in agreement, los_teacher. It seems like everyone is in agreement on this thread. Doing your best, your 100% best means accepting a job and seeing it through to the end and not letting things get in your way. Teaching them to the best of your ability and giving them all you can give to them, they are your students and they are in your care.

And this has absolutely nothing with ratting out bad schools. Bad schools would have you believe that being a good teacher IS not complaining about the conditions and just accepting them happily. From what I understand, you're implying ratting out a school means you're a bad teacher. This doesn't make sense. Anyways, this thread has diverted entirely fromt he threat made against the teacher and it seems like several people in this thread are justifying the schools actions to threaten another teacher. You need to think hard about that.