Topic: Legal action at Potisarn

[ThonburiTim]

Several parents have recently filed formal complaints with the school´s parent´s organization against the school director and the EP coordinator for misappropriation of funds coming from EP and MEP fees.  The allegations relate to hiring of teachers without proper teaching credentials but hiding this from parents, and using monies that the parents feel should be used to ensure the quality and credentials of EP and MEP teachers meet their wishes for other projects at the school and even for personal gain by the director.  The Parent´s Organization has recently filed a lawsuit against the Director alleging this, and teachers applying for or working at this school should be aware that this will likely lead to a change in leadership for the school and program within the school year.  One can only hope that this will be the case after seeing what was once a shining star of programs become nothing more than another poor example of how to rip parents and students off by flashing the terms EP and MEP around but not providing a hint of quality control, innovation or real program management.

[curtcrossley]

I was also just told about this by several students at the school whose parents are involved in the suit.  But as I understand things, I do not think it has been filed yet.  Rather, the Parents Org. has threatened action and the director has been asked to craft a solution to the problem that includes his possible resignation or a move to another school and a thorough review of hiring and staffing for the EP.  We´ll see what happens.  The issue really is that many teachers, the director and EP coordinator, and lots of parents were notified about falsified teaching credentials of several staffers long ago and, in true Thai style, they hoped the problem would just go away without head-to-head conflict.  Now, a year after the first such notification and with loads of proof, they have decided to move forward.

[ThonburiTim]

In fact, the legal process has begun and a lawyer has been hired by the Parents´Association to get things rolling.  Half the teachers at this school have falsified degrees....have no idea if that is more or less than other schools but the difference here is that the head honcho and his henchwomen had proof waved in their faces and they decied to ignore it and pretend they did not know when asked by parents.  Much to the dismay of the dastardly dean, dem parents had da same doctored documents!  Now da heads are gonna rooolllll....

[Nemesis]

I don't want this thread to turn into an anti-teacher thread. I came close to editing some of the posts, but I'll hold off for now. Keep this focused on the director and administration that refused to hire qualified teachers and instead tried to save a little money by going with teachers without qualifications. Keep it firmly focused on the cause, rather than the effect of this problem.

[tob55]

The whole idea of academic fraud is not reserved to one particular region of the world these days...Neither is the pilfering (sp) of monies which were intended to be used for the academic advancement of children...As long as there are ways to work around the system through deception and other means, people will continue to try doing what they can get away with...I am located in a different part of the world than the OP mentioned regarding this situation, but it is in no way different than what we experience here in my country of residence...

People should begin to focus on positive reform and making a difference in the way the system is set up and operates...As long as people with questionable character and less than sparkling track records are allowed to continue doing what they do, then nothing will change...Nemesis is right, there is no need to go on an anti-teacher campaign simply because there are some bad people doing bad things...Staying focused on the issues is the only way that positive changes will begin...

Do you part first by making sure there are no skeletons in the closet that can come back to haunt you personally...What I mean by this is that people should become proactive regarding their qualifications...If you have nothing to hide, then don't act like you do...All this does is create more suspiscion in the minds of people who already have a problem with a program or persons running a program...When people ask you to verify your academic and professional qualifications show them and they will generally be satisfied...

I have been in education a long time (24+ years), and seen my share of bad situations that were made worse when people went into the fray with their guns blazing, ready to attack anyone and everyone connected with a program just because there was corruption taking place...I have seen a lot of people have their character and personal lives damaged a great deal because they became the victims of false and misleading accusations...Sometimes it cannot be prevented, but most of the time it can if people will use a little common sense before they open their mouth the accuse someone of something... This is my take on the situation and I mean no offense towards anyone who is vehement about this subject, but it will be resolved one way or the other, and hopefully, not too many people will be unjustly accused...

[phatpharmer]

Potisarn is not alone in its problems and the scandal it appears to be embroiled in is indicative of the larger problems of the education system here in Thailand.  English programs at are essentially private schools operating within the context of another school government or private. There is a naturally rift between EP's who appear to get everything  While an EP program's students are separated from the general program students, the administration will typically consider the EP tuition as revenue for the entire school rather than just for the EP.  This is unfortunate and I think if there was total transparency in budgeting from the very start questions about finance and acusations of misappropriating funds wound not come up.

Staff issues: Let's face it, Thailand is still figuring things out.  Appearance over substance at the interview stage.  Apparently Potisarn has been mismanaged or simply neglected by the director leaving daily worries in the hands of a few powerless underlings with no meaningful leader or leadership.  Management ideology doesn't include inspiring people to excel at their work but simply to survive the days chaos and hope no one quits.  Well of course teachers quit when a school is poorly run: the first teachers to go are the ones that can afford to leave for greener pastures, the next ones to leave are the ones who made enough money to quit, the next group of people to leave are the replacements of the aforementioned.  Now a drop in teacher morale we know leads to high rate of turnover sometimes in the middle of the semester which means English Programs are frantic to find replacements as the current staff is sick of covering classes and their morale is dropping exponentially by the day.  So the knight in shining armor is anyone who washes up on the Gulf Thailand and finds their way to the English program and the typical response by management will be "Here's the school, when can you start?  We have 3 teachers out today, can you cover their classes?"  Easiest teaching job to acquire is at a school in distress.  One quickly learns the politics of the office rival a bad day in Baghdad.  Animosity is not constrained but vented openly.  Small issues normal in any organization fester without relief.  management hide in their office for fear of more bad news and teacher complaints all the while fielding phone calls from irate parents.  The walls are closing in. 

Another issue schools are facing is more restrictions on teachers they can hire which has forced schools to turnto recruiters for their staffing.  A recruiter acts much like a temp agency an can swap teachers in and out until they find the right one.  What is a bit weird is teachers are now starting recruiting agencies from within the school they work for.  The plus side for the school is they staff a school without actually hiring them directly and of course the regulations regarding direct hires don't actually apply to recruiters.

I keep referring back to the forum moderator's comments wondering if I am talking about the cause or the effect.  Anyway I hope the school is able to rise to the challenge and reform itself.  The school needs a strong solid leader to take over-- time will tell whether their is the wisdom to change. 

             

[Thighlander]

Management ideology doesn't include inspiring people to excel at their work but simply to survive the days chaos and hope no one quits.  Well of course teachers quit when a school is poorly run: the first teachers to go are the ones that can afford to leave for greener pastures, the next ones to leave are the ones who made enough money to quit, the next group of people to leave are the replacements of the aforementioned.  Now a drop in teacher morale we know leads to high rate of turnover sometimes in the middle of the semester which means English Programs are frantic to find replacements as the current staff is sick of covering classes and their morale is dropping exponentially by the day.  So the knight in shining armor is anyone who washes up on the Gulf Thailand and finds their way to the English program and the typical response by management will be "Here's the school, when can you start?  We have 3 teachers out today, can you cover their classes?"  Easiest teaching job to acquire is at a school in distress.  One quickly learns the politics of the office rival a bad day in Baghdad.  Animosity is not constrained but vented openly.  Small issues normal in any organization fester without relief.  management hide in their office for fear of more bad news and teacher complaints all the while fielding phone calls from irate parents.  The walls are closing in. 
             

I've seen schools favor people, who are in debt and have kids, because they have no choice but to work and not complain.  I agree with your other points 100%.  Thanks for your contribution.

[phatpharmer]

You are right about school admin feeling compassion for people raising families -- puts everyone in a very sticky situation.
 

[Nemesis]

You are right about school admin feeling compassion for people raising families -- puts everyone in a very sticky situation.
 

It's not compassion. It's not at all, they might say it is, but it's not compassion. People raising families can not quit at the drop of a hat and will take a lot more BS because they have a family to support. A single person can f*ck it and walk off the job and fall into another one without as many concerns. A family man needs to think about his wife and kids and how he will feed and house them. Even in the almight US, most people can go more than a month or two without pay.

Many schools will attempt to blackball you in the local area so that if you do leave a school because of your ethics, you will find no other school locally willing to hire you. That means moving your whole family, wife and kids and all of your possessions to a new city. Not easy.

No, it's not compassion, it's shrewd business.


AND PF, about the prior post, it nice, all about the causes.

[phatpharmer]

Yeah come to think of it, people who are afraid to lose their jobs are the most "cooperative and compliant."  When you got the goods on anyone, then you have leverage and essentially OWN them.  Some of the most cooperative people will be those with no degree, those with with families, non-western teachers  making far less money supporting a family. 

From what I have seen, Filipino teachers are the most hard-working and apolitical.  Leverage is not in their favor so they overcompensate-- while they might not be the choice teaches by the Thai parents standards, they can be the backbone of any English Program.  Western teachers who have far more marketability than Filipino teachers, can be a liability due to attitude problems, addictions, and Elvis-syndrome (being treated like a rock star by locals due to perceived good looks.) 

The root of the problem: let's get back to the original issues which started this thread.  I will attempt to side step finger pointing and name calling because I feel that all parties involved have a hand in what what is going down at school.  The real issue I see is that school here in Thailand is more of a tool for indoctrination of Thai-ness-- you know what I am talking about-- then a real true education vehicle.  One may argue this is true in all countries but I find this especially true in Thailand.  Therefore, whether education takes place in the classroom or not doesn't matter so long as the student is properly exposed to the cultural mores of good complacent Thai citizens.  Interestingly enough, the Ministry of Education folks must have had some decent education somewhere along the way because they can perfectly espouse new in vogue educational ideas in their formal materials-- constructivist ideas e.g.-- while encouraging the opposite in practice: "Think inside the box kids!"   

So if we follow my idea that school is, in fact, not for education but for indoctrination then how much does it matter if their teachers have degrees or not?  I am thoroughly unconvinced that a degree is indicative of whether or not someone will be a good English teacher and feel these laws should be reviewed here in Thailand and the decision to hire a non-degreed teacher should rest solely with the school. 

The current situation at Potisarn will only be resolved by face to face meetings between the director and the parents.  If the reports coming out this school are at all true, the director will probably smile a a lot and say everything will be fine, take off on vacation and leave everything in the hands of the underlings who are somehow supposed to deduce that by his absence and noncommital, uncommunicative nature, they should do nothing and keep smiling and telling everyone everything is OK.  The parents might win small concessions like reviewing teachers educational histories and sitting in on the interviewing process-- I guarantee you they would do a thorough job!

I read that some parents of the English program want the director to resign-- probably won't happen but if it did that would be interesting.  Now of course everyone needs to save face.  I like the idea of the director staying at his post and continuing to do nothing until the ship finally sinks with him at the helm.  But that's just me, I'm a doomsday nihilist.   



 

         

[ThonburiTim]

The responses to this thread are well thought out and very interesting.  I understand the sentiment that the Director should go down with his ship, but knowing so many kids and parents at this school I cannot go along with that.  I hope he leaves sooner rather than later and that someone like the previous director comes in to clean things up.  The kids and the parents deserve (not only at Potisarn but at all the schools in such situations).

I also want to clarify that I never intended any comments to be anti-teacher.  The fact that the school has had clear and abundant evidence from outside sources and insiders (other teachers) for nearly a year that some falsified documents have been used to procure teaching positions that explicitly required a BA or MA, and hire salaries, and promotions, etc., is now fully the responsibility of the school administration that let this happen.  In my opinion they - the EP Coordinator who hides from everyone, the Deputy Director who speaks only to Filipinos, and the director who comes in late and leaves early every day (edit)should be hung out to dry.

As for whether non-qualified or certified native speakers can make good teachers - sure.  I am sure a non qualified nurse can make a good health attendant and a non-qualified advocate can make good lawyerly arguments too.  That is not the point.  The law in Thailand already allows the hiring of non-certified foreigners to teach conversational English, and that is fine if the candidates are HONEST up front.  They are supposed to be role models for children, supposedly, aren´t they?  The issue here though is that the school looked for and explicitly said teachers MUST Have degrees and people faked those documents to get jobs, and then when the school was informed of the fraudulent actions, they decided to take the easy way out and not fire anyone, not have to interview anyone, and just see if it could go by unnoticed.

[Nemesis]

TT,

I have to disagree with you. I really do. You said teachers had fake degrees. I say the school administration knew that before they even hired the teachers. It's completely on them. They should have verified the documents before hiring, but they didn't.

They chose to accept teachers without checking out references and/or documentation. "Oh you have a white face, you say you have a degree, you're hired." They got exactly what they wanted. If they wanted someone with a legitimate degree, they would ensure that the person really did have a legitimate degree. 

Instead, they got what they wanted, a teacher who would teach the classes at the salary they wanted to pay. Now when they found out the decision wasn't the best. Guess what? Oh, it's not our fault, the foreigners lied to us. Yeah right.

[Johnny Rotten]

Tob55 and Phatpharmer have summarised the teaching situation in Thailand very well. Mods should consider editing their posts to make an introduction to teaching in Thailand sticky for newbies. IMO

[los_teacher]

I disagree Nemesis.

Providing fake documents is a crime.  It is called fraud and/or forgery.  A felony in most countries.

Not taking the time, having the resources, or wherewithal to completely check documents is negligence, incompetence, or just simple ignorance.

Nevertheless, once management became aware of the fraud it was their duty to correct the situation immediately.  Not doing so makes them conspirators and equally guilty.

[Nemesis]

You're right, los teacher. But if you want to point the finger at the teachers, this isn't the place. I won't defend them. I have strong opinions on them and my salary has been hit by teachers who try to pass of that they have MA's and Phd when they didn't.

But at the time, I redirected my disappointment to the administration. If they would just check out documentation, then it wouldn't happen. Not having the resources is not an excuse. If hiring a teacher isn't worth spending an hour or two checking out documentation, then you probably aren't concerned at all about the quality of teachers you are hiring. If a school isn't concerned at all about the quality of its teaching staff then its probably a school to avoid.

If you will recall, earlier this year two teachers were jailed for fake documentation that the schools encouraged them to get. They did the time, nothing happened to the schools.

Most of the time, we get what we ask for and that includes schools.