Topic: St. Joseph Bang-Na

[showandtell]

I work for St. Joseph Bang-Na and have been shocked to find out there are allegations of a male teacher molesting a few matthyom 2 girls. It has been reported to the HeadMistress (if you can call her that, Hitler in a habit is more like it) but she has refused to even investigate. I do not know what action to take. I of course do not know if the allegations against the teacher are true, but as a head mistress and a nun of the Catholic church, does the head of the school not have any duty to in the least investigate?

please help me out here....

a confused? show and tell?

[hero]

Don't get involved personally would be my advice.? Try and find a party (inside or outside school) that is prepared and better-equipped than yourself (i.e. Thai and important!) to take it up for you.? I think personal involvement could be very dangerous, you could be walking into something you don't want to be walking into with that one.

You could ask the nun/headmistress what she knows and ask if she is investigating it.? She may be doing more than observers know about.? If you were professional in your approach to her then she should be professional in her response to you.?

I'm out of ideas apart from that mate - it certainly is a situation I never want to find myself in!

Good luck.

[Notanewbie]

Do you really know that the headmistress is not investigating this? Obviously this is not something a school wants to get out, as far as child molestation goes, often an accusation is as bad as a conviction. Even if it is not true, an accusation of this magnitude in the media could put the school out of business and you out of a job. Just because you are not told what is going on, it does not mean the administration is not seriously looking into it. After all, you have posted the school?s name on the Internet and by mentioned the nationality of the individual you are implicating probably a half dozen people or so in a very serious crime on mere rumor. I can see why the school would be reluctant to withhold sensitive information from you. Accusations of this kind are about as serious as you can get against someone in education short of murder. Maybe the headmistress does not feel the need to smear the name of the school and its teachers on mere rumor as you seen to be doing. It could be the headmistress (who you obviously have a personal grudge against also) knows the accusation is not credible and is therefore not worthy of pursuing. You could have easily asked for advice anonymously on this or other sites, why you chose to use the actual school?s name and positions of people that could be specifically identified is curious, especially by claiming you don?t know if the rumor is true or not.? You might truly be a concerned teacher looking out for the welfare of the students but lacking any kind of discretion , or you might be an evil SOB trying to cause trouble for a teacher and school administer you have a grip with by? hurling vile accusations. I can?t say on the existing data, 50-50 would be the odds I would give if I was making book on this.?

[Duckbill]

The OP could be right on the money about it, but it doesn't matter at all. I will tell a little story to illustrate what it all means.

There is a popular teacher here, it doesn't matter where, just here. He isn't popular with the other foreigners, but he acts like a 16 year old and the students like it or so it seems. (If you are curious, he is a poster over at the Ajarn.com forum.) The first time, I was approached by someone I trust completely, and told that this friend was uncomfortbale with the teacher taking a 16 year old student(from another school) out on dates, including movies, MK, etc, etc. I talked to the teacher and he assurred me none of it happened. I reminded him that it was not good for teachers to date young students.

Fast forward then 6 weeks, someone who I trust very highly came to me and provided me information directly from a student about this teacher's escapades with the student. The student then talked directly with me and showed emails and sms messages this teacher was sending her. She had been in love with the teacher but then he found a new girl and broke up with her. She was in tears over it all. I confronted the teacher again with information. He had continued the relationship for 6 weeks after I confronted him about the issue. Including trying to force the girl to have sex with him.

I had a talk with several people in the office about what should happen. He is well liked in the office so I became ostracized in the office. As one Thai staff member said, "This girl likes foreigners, she shouldn't go out with foreigners, it is her fault." Blame the girl, not the pedophile. I confronted the teacher again. I took the advice of another Ajarn.com poster who works in the office and that since he did break it up, I should just let the teacher be and only if he does something again should I bring it up to the principal and program director. Nothing was done about the situation.

In the intervening two months since that happened, I have had my name slandered around town as a bad teacher, as a bad person. How do I know this? Several people have come to me directly and told me what they have heard this teacher say about me. The person whom I trust completely, my wife, has had rumors spread about her throughout the city as well, he has referred to her as a slut, a bad woman, etc.

A few days ago, I learned that he was involving himself with yet another student, this one 15 years old. Saw the SMS messages with my own two eyes. So I went to the director of the program, she said, "I will think about this and later I will remind him not to date students."

That's it. A smart administration would let him go now, at the end of the year. Tell him to go on his way, but instead they keep him.  It is all about money, and making more of it.

Another valuable lesson was learned that showandtell would do well to heed, if you try to push this, you will be ostracized, you will be forced out a job and you will  realize that Thai administration doesn't really care about keeping kids away from predators. 

[samvimes]

This is terrible and should if you are 110% sure about your facts it must be reported.

As a teacher we all have a duty to our profession. If it is true he should not be teaching or allowed in any position with children.

[noelbino]

In regards to the molestationof the students: I heard about this from a friend of mine who works there. In my experience in teaching in Thailand [11 years] I know it would take a lot of trust by students in this age group to confide in a foriegner a matter of this accusation.
with this in mind I believe that the incidents happened. Some of you are suggesting that an investigation may or may not be happenning. I can only say if he is still working there nothing was investigated. If  there was an investigation he would be on his way.
If he is still there you other foriegn teachers know who he is so you should carry out your own investigation and perhaps "Send him to Coventery" until he gets the message.

[samvimes]

I would contact someone; either the embassy of the person who has been accused to see if there is any criminal record and whether he is a known danger

or

The parents of the students concerned

or

One of the newspapers here.

If this becomes a big issue then your very silence makes you morally guilty if you knew and did nothing.

[scotmick]

With regard to the postings on the alledged molestations to matthayom pupils at St Jo's (Bang Na), I can personnally bear witness to these accussations. A number of girls disclosed to me that, one of their teachers had frequently fondled their bodies and shown them pornographic material on a school computer.

I took this information, and six of the girls involved, to the administrative department. There I was told the matter would be dealt with and, as you can imagine from me posting this message, absolutely nothing was done. I asked for updates on the situation on a continued basis, even asking the principal herself.

She seemed quite happy to sweep it all under the carpet.

This story could go on and on but, to be honest, I felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall. I have subsequently resigned. Before leaving, I told my M1 students that my reason for departure was my belief that the school was supporting neither the students involved nor myself.

A teacher who is still at this school asked me recently if I would be interested to approach the media with this story. Naturally, I am in favour of this, but reluctant as I feel turning the spotlight on the girls will be the only achievment.

How, as foreigners, can we deal with this ludicrous situation? Any thoughts would be more than welcome.

Mick.

[samvimes]

Contact the embassy of the teacher

Contact the Bangkok Post or the Nation

or you could get somone else? to report it for you.

You could also contact the ministry of education who I am sure would love to know about this.

[Uncle Che]

Let me advise against anyone pursuing it. If the media found out, they wouldn't care. If by chance they did care, the girls would be the ones demonized. A school that hired the boso would lose a lot if it was discovered so covering up is the best approach for them. If covering up fails, then demonize the girls. The school saves face and isn't that the only thing that matters? What about the police? They won't do anything. About the only hope is telling the parents, but it needs to come from the girls. And how many parents would try to save their children embarassment by quietly moving them to another school.

 

[MrQ]

I have been down this road with a teacher who liked to have boys staying with him at night time.

Nothing happened other than me being fired. Which wasn't a bad thing.

I did report him to UNICEF though but I don't think anything ever happened with that either.

[Speaksoftly]

With all due respect to the opening poster for his diligence, sympathy to the victim, and queasiness at the reported behaviors:

I do not think that discussion of questionable activities by employees of various institutions is suitable for this forum.

Why?

1.  Our mission is to promote the well-being of teachers by reporting bad or unprofessional behavior with regard to contracts, working conditions, etc.  If we were to start attempting to cover all forms of illegal behavior at any school- including similarly unpunished bad behavior by Thai or foreign teachers, or financial corruption, entrance fee corruption, etc., etc., we would be swamped, and there would be no institutions left worth working at for any reason.

2.  It is the sad but true case that any incidents such as OP describes will be swept under the carpet at most schools.  Can you seriously imagine them doing anything else?  These places are businesses, too.  This is not only true in Thailand but in most schools anywhere in the world.  Kudos to OP for doing what he could at his school, but this is a working-conditions website, not a catch-the-predator website.

3.  We are supposed to be pro-teacher.  Without actual police powers, it is very unlikely that we could verify any allegations made about teachers at specific schools, who would be all too vulnerable to identification even if there were no names mentioned.  This is the kind of slander that could kill someone's career even if it were only a malicious lie and there were no evidence.  It is too serious an issue to ruin someone's reputation based on even the most well-intentioned posts on a website, if they cannot be proven.

[Uncle Che]

You are right , Speaksoftly, an allegation could kill a career.

1. I am enforcing the no naming teachers. That means if I can figure out what teacher you are talking about then you need to change the reference. References by nationality, subject taught, or other identifiable information are off-topic.

2. Keep posts focused on how the action affects the working conditions at the school. I truly believe that this thread highlights an administration problem at the school rather than a teacher problem. Remember, working conditions include contract issues, the treatment of teachers by staff and administration and an adequate teaching environment.

[Speaksoftly]

Thanks, Uncle Che.  I think we should stay on-mission and focus on the school administrations, not the individual teachers.

[Speaksoftly]

Recently, my message objecting to the theme of this thread was "reported to mods" with comments that indicated that the poster felt that my post on this thread was tantamount to "covering up" something at St. Josephs.  Unfortunately, technical difficulties meant that in that case the user's name was not sent with the report, so I cannot reply to him directly.  I would not like anyone to think I am ignoring them, so I will reply here.

I can only reiterate that we are not a law enforcement agency, a predator-hunting site, or a legally empowered watchdog.  There are other agencies in Thailand which serve all of these purposes (i.e., the police, the Ministry of Education, various websites, other government agencies, etc., etc.)  Our primary goal is to expose lies, fraud, and other unfair and deceitful practices affecting working conditions at schools.  In general, this is a pro-teacher site, as the cards are stacked against us in almost every other way.

It would be extremely unfair and libellous and illegal for us to insinuate or report such heinous criminal activity by a person or institution as a fact without the power and the information to prove that our claims were justified.  If the person who wrote me believes they have enough information to prove any misdoing, I gladly invite him to provide that information to the proper authority for preventing crime and punishing criminals:  the police.  In such a case I entirely agree that whatever obstacles you may encounter in getting the police to pay attention to you and actually do their jobs, your efforts will be worth it.  When any criminals are arrested, I am sure I will enjoy reading of their punishment on a website where such news is topical- in other words, once again, not this website.

You may ask:  where's the proof for the working conditions problems that many people report, and why don't we call the police over them?  A good question.  There is no proof, or rather, what proof there is usually comes from multiple confirmations by posters who agree that problems exist.  These problems are not usually worth the effort that a lawsuit would entail, even if it could be won- but they are worth sharing for the benefit of our readers.  Furthermore, most of the reports are in support of teachers and do not make unproven criminal accusations against any one person, and the criminal matters regarding contracts and so forth in question are anyway, to be honest, very petty ones in terms of the big picture- hardly worth a lawsuit or calling the police on either side most of the time.

Much different than in the case you seem so concerned about- so once again I implore you:  call the police and assist them with their inquiries, if you are so sure there is such a problem- or if you have no proof, make your own website to state your beliefs.  If someone wound up with a undeserved reputation as a child abuser as a result of our website, they would certainly have reason to call the police against us.

[Speaksoftly]

As a technical note, if you wish to reply based on the content of a message, you should either reply to it or PM a member.  Message reporting should be reserved for reporting messages that have inappropriate or abusive content, not debating the thread topic with mods.

[hero]

  and  I agree wholeheartedly.  Naming somebody for this kind of crime without any evidence would be grossly irresponsible, despite the horrible nature of the "alleged" crime it would be in nobody's best interest at all.

[Mods-Rockers]

Further to the above, if you feel that visiting the boys in brown would be too difficult then you can also reprt the matter to the alledged culprits embassy. Most embassies have a senior member of the countries law enforcement agency on staff and access to records back home and locally and mostly they will not present the same language barriers that can be posed with a visit to the thai authorities.

[Speaksoftly]

Thanks, fellers!   

There is another, legitimate topic on the first or second page about St. Joseph's.  Further topical posts should be made there.  I'm going to close this thread; if anyone can convince me by PM that there's anything else topical here to say (that isn't discussing either alleged but unproven heinous crimes, or debating the decision not to discuss them) maybe we can re-open it, but don't hold your breath.

[loamboy]

St Joseph Bangna
What a nightmare...
They changed the subjects and year groups that I was teaching at the drop of a hat, and not just once but DAILY!!!!
Avoid - Avoid - Avoid

[think4yourself]

 
St Joseph Bangna is NOT the same as St Joseph Convent, but they and many other schools are run by the same Catholic Order. St Joseph Bangna is presently headed up by a Thai Nun.  Both of these schools are very hard on teachers and suffer a shocking amount of teachers heading for the hills.  I have met two people who worked at St Joseph Convent and they were burnt out because of the extra hours of teaching that were piled onto them due to other teachers leaving.  Neither one of them had anything positive to say except avoid the place.

[hero]

The two posts above were moved here from the St. Joseph Convent School thread - loamboy, having worked there you would clearly know they were different schools, no?

[Yanqui]

this seems dire but I would like to add my own thoughts to the chorus advising caution.

Firstly, the reasons why nothing would be done by the school admin. You need to understand that no Thai makes mistakes and you cannot say a Thai makes mistakes. To investigate would leave the hiring person or organisation open to loss of face. This will not be allowed to happen.

Secondly, in Thialand, popularity is all-important. If a teacher is popular with the Thai admin and teachers then they will close ranks around him/her no matter how incompetent, corrupt or unprofessional s/he may be.

Thirdly, if parent were to become aare that the school was investigating the chargeds, the school would come under extreme pressure and close scrutiny, which in all probablity would not be enjoyed.

And fourthly (and most importantly by a long way). if investigated, the pressure from parents under itel 3) would mean a loss of revenue.

My advice? Stay far far away from the bugger to ensure you are not associated with him. You are in Thailand now where people refuse to see what they do not like. When in Rome...

Just some thoughts, all based on solid experience of the Thai education establishment. No flames please! 

Yanqui

[confusedfarang]

I currently work at St. Josephs Bangna and have done for some time.

Whilst i have heard rumours about the " alleged " actions of this individual i have yet to see any DEFINATE proof.

I am DEFINATELY aware of the schools 2 book signing in system.  One book is for the teachers that have REAL degrees and WP,s and the other book is for the POPULAR teachers that have fake degrees ( or Life degrees,  ) and no WP,s

Does the Thai principal approve?   Yes she does. Are the POPULAR teachers good at their job? Errrrrrrrrrr,   no.   But they know how to entertain.

The point i am making is that all " teachers " who are not qualified and use fake degrees should be dismissed, deported, jailed, whatever.

Ultimately, they do more harm than good as i am sure all you QUALIFIED teachers are aware

[hero]

The point i am making is that all " teachers " who are not qualified and use fake degrees should be dismissed, deported, jailed, whatever.

So have you "DEFINATELY"(sic.) seen proof that these teachers are using fake degrees and life degrees.

You don't seem very concerned about the more serious crimes to be honest which is slightly odd as you seem to imply that you are very concerned about the kids.

Do you really believe that teachers should be jailed or deported for working on these documents.  After all, they have been "allowed" to, even encouraged, to do so by almost all employers for many many years.  Some employers have got tough in the face of the new requirements, others still flout the rules employing teachers on "irregular" documentation quite willingly knowing full well that the teachers will bear the brunt of any repercussions.  I for one, think punishing the schools would be a far more appropriate course of action to improve standards here!

An ethical question could be raised about your idea of dismissing the teachers concerned too.  If the school knowingly keeps them on (presumably renewing contracts) despite knowing that their paperwork doesn't really add up, then it wouldn't be very fair to turn around and fire them halfway through a semester now would it? 

Just because we live in a society that is often reminiscent of the wild West and we are expats, often without close long-term ties, doesn't mean we should encourage it at the expense of others IMO!

Ultimately, they do more harm than good as i am sure all you QUALIFIED teachers are aware

Ultimately I think it is unscrupulous school bosses that do the harm.  Covering things up, lying to goverment officials.  Putting themselves first, kids second and foreign teachers last!

[freedom fighter]

I feel that the matter of suspected student 'relationships' should be addressed as seriously as possible.  All we need right now is another 'kiddy fiddler' to screw it up for the rest of us. 

As a community, can we not find a way to deal with these losers?  Perhaps we can devise a plan of action to help those who suspect paedophilia without causing a witch hunt?

BTW I would also like to see only professional, qualified teachers here too but until that happens can we stop condemning the 'fakeys' because they don't have a degree in engineering to make them legal.  Let's prioritise the problems and tackle them one at a time... paedophilia must surely be higher up the list?

[Thai Me Up]

I'm not comfortable with looking the other way if I suspect a teacher, especially a foreign teacher, is having relations with a minor student.  I had a student tell me that Ajarn So-and-So invited her out and asked her not to tell anybody about it, and while this is not proof of a crime, it was enough for me to confront that teacher privately and say, "These are kids - mind your boundaries."  When he said, "I tend to step over boundaries," I restated my point a little more forcefully.  If you are comfortable with rationalizing, "TIT, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut," then that is the standard you should hold yourself to.  If a student complains to me, I won't turn a blind eye to it.

[confusedfarang]

So have you "DEFINATELY"(sic.) seen proof that these teachers are using fake degrees and life degrees.

Yes, I have seen 2 of the degrees that were fakes. Manchester POLYTECNIC   No " H "  is a clue .    Plus i was in the room when the thai administator advised some of her inner circle to obtain the life degrees.

One degree from ROCHVILLE University ( degree mill ) and one from BELFORD? 

I THINK the Thai authorities have a list of accredited universities and they will not be on the approved list for sure.

I am not certain but i am sure the degree requirement for a work permit states the degree must be a verifiable 4 year degree?  As i say, i am not certain about that.  Please correct me if i am mistaken.

As for the foreign teacher that allegedly dates his 15 year olds? I have not seen this......its rumoured amongst all the other foreign teachers here. ( WE have 32 ) But you know how rumours take on a life all of their own.

How do i say this to a Thai administrator? I cannot for sure.   He is on the inner circle.  I cannot say to one of our foreign "heads " .   He has a fake degree. 

So yes......i think my only option right now is to just wait and watch.  If i see anything definately untoward then i will say so.  Until then i,m keeping my mouth closed unless anyone can advise me otherwise?

[hero]

I am not certain but i am sure the degree requirement for a work permit states the degree must be a verifiable 4 year degree

No degree requirement for a WP actually.  Lots of very good degrees from the UK are earnt in 3 years IME, I certainly don't know anybody who has had any problems getting a Visa/TL/WP with a 3-year Bachelors' degree from the UK!

[confusedfarang]

Fair enough.    Point taken.   

[JackJohnson]

    I had interviewed and I thought the interview went very well. I fortunatelly have a valid degree from a major University. After reading all the "drama" and "possible allegations", I find it releiving not to have chosen this school to work for.  While I'm sure professionally, this school would be ok to work for. I wonder how it would be considering all the rumors and drama. Meaning, I question the possible-co-workers and all the "hot-gossip".
   If people just do their job and live a "good, healthy, and ethical lifestyle" I don't forsee any problems. But then again you always have your "hatefull drama queens" to deal with.

[Thighlander]

Which St. Saint Joeseph's did John Karr work for before he was hired by BCC?

[Nemesis]

Let's make sure we keep this pro-teacher. The fact that teachers may or may not have fake degrees is not pertinent. What is pertinent is that the admin may be encouraging this. Keep it focused on the administration, if you want to focus on the teachers, visit the other site.

[hero]

Which St. Saint Joeseph's did John Karr work for before he was hired by BCC?

A different one!  Silom I believe.

[bkkobserver]

or maybe this one!
I was interviewed recently and felt something was not right. I decided to opt for another job. After reading these posts, I think I did the right thing.