Topic: Thewpaingarm School in Bangkok

[Mike2007]

It has been an interesting year at Thewphaingarm, the students are well behaved and are easy to work with.  There are two sides to Thewphaingarm, the first side is EF  which teaches Basic English Skills (this posting is not about them) but I will address TSEP.  TSEP has been undergoing a series of changes over the past year.  We have a Curriculum Director, a pleasant enough Indian Girl who monopolizes most of your day, bogging down teachers in meeting, projects, overnight seminars, watching through windows and meeting after meeting of evaluation.  The Curriculum Director ***** has made comments towards male teachers expressing her interest in them, and when they refuse they usually get fire soon after.  The school feels like they pay too much, and has fired over half of their staff this year.  Most of the firings had to do with the immigration crackdown, but Thewphaingarm teachers were encouraged to buy fake degrees.  Many teachers bought fake degrees (20,000 baht) and then the management decided to get rid of them anyway.  The school actually had their students, at least 100, dress up as Nazis this year and goose stepped around the pavement.  The school in culturally insensitive, and finds themselves in embarrassing situations frequently.  The name of the school should be corruption.   I had to jump ship, and have many friends associated with this school, I hope they find better jobs soon.  I have kept my posting fair and accurate, and have left the information as only as a small window of problems, This school will eat you alive.  If you are considering one of the many positions at this school, you can E-mail me at teachingweb@gmail.com

[hero]

Thanks mate.

I'm interested in knowing what an "overnight seminar" is all about 

[Bangkok Phil]

Oh Mike.

[freedom fighter]

"The school actually had their students, at least 100, dress up as Nazis this year and goose stepped around the pavement."

Sorry.  What?? 

Please eloborate because I'm choking on my knish.  Oy vey!

FF.

[Mike2007]

On Sports day, they planned this Charade for some time, the students then became very interested in Nazis, and started wearing more Nazi stuff to class.  Granted, the students are ignorant to the truth, but the staff who gave the go ahead??  Well you know.  I saw the post for 5 new teachers, and It is not surprising.  They don't have teachers stay for long term, many people are short timers, and recently they went with an agency to pick up the slack.  The pay looks good on paper, but you will surely earn every last baht. 

[Thai Me Up]

Mike,
So sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for teachers who buy degrees, regardless of the expense.  I think the Nazi activity was outrageously offensive.  Did any of the foreign staff even try to explain to the Thai staff how this was terribly inappropriate?  What is an overnight seminar and did it have something to do with the Curriculum Director hitting on teachers?

[freedom fighter]

Perhaps you could arrange for the farang staff to dress up as WWII Japanese war criminals and reenact the forced occupation of Thailand? 

[Thai Me Up]

freedomfighter,
For even better revenge, show the musical number "Getting to Know You" from "The King and I" and have all the students sing along.  They won't even know you're poisoning their minds with this movie banned in Thailand.  Better yet, TAKE PICTURES the next time Thai students or ANY students dress up as Nazis and parade around school.

[anyonefortennis]

The school feels like they pay too much, and has fired over half of their staff this year.  Most of the firings had to do with the immigration crackdown, but Thewphaingarm teachers were encouraged to buy fake degrees.  Many teachers bought fake degrees (20,000 baht) and then the management decided to get rid of them anyway. 

The people they fired, were they replaced? If so did they hire replacement teachers on a lower salary?

Are the management who made the firings the same people who suggested getting fake degrees?

I'd suggest anyone who was fired who has the proper paper work check out the thread about recouping three months wages from a school if you're fired without just cause before the end of your contract.

Granted, the students are ignorant to the truth, but the staff who gave the go ahead?? 

The Nazi thing is really quite odd, but given the number of Thai TV dramas that show kids with swastika posters on their bedroom walls it is sadly not surprising. To be honest I should think that the staff that gave the go ahead were as ignorant to the offence it may cause as the students. In much the same vain, I doubt few of the kids walking round in t-shirts acclaiming "F**k off Nazi scum" actually know the meaning of either nazi or scum, but the t-shirts are quite popular down my neck of the woods.

[freedom fighter]

I wonder how those Thai students would feel if they knew that the nazis considered them to be an inferior race.  Are they aware that Hitler's first actions in Thailand would almost certainly have been to execute the monarchy and abolish Buddhism?  Point this is out the next time you see nazi paraphernalia being worn by a Thai.  I do.

If you are unfortunate enough to have to address the entire school in assembly for a weekly speech, use this as your platform to educate the masses.  Ignorance is the reason that 9,000,000 people were slaughtered like cattle.

FF.

[bomha]

That is a good idea: say, "The real Nazis hate His Majesty the King, and would try to kill all Thai people."

I think the total killed in the Holocaust was more like 12,000,000.  You might tell your gay students the Nazis killed the homosexuals, too.

My mate actually sang "Getting to Know You" to a matayom class!

[brian_q]

"The Nazi thing is really quite odd, but given the number of Thai TV dramas that show kids with swastika posters on their bedroom walls it is sadly not surprising."

While Thai kids dressing up as Nazis is quite odd, the swastika has been a Buddhist symbol long before Hitler apprpoiated it.

Brian

[anyonefortennis]

True enough Brian, although the posters / t-shirts etc. do tend to display the swastika adopted by Nazi Germany, with the arms of the swastika going anticlockwise rather than clockwise, which tends to be the Buddhist symbol.

[khru]

Don't want to split hairs but the swastika is from Hinduism (and then adopted by Buddhism).

When I worked at Thewpaingarm the pratom girls dressed up in fishnet tights, micro-minis and thigh-high boots. Doesn't sound like it's changed too much!

[brian_q]

Thigh high boots are affectionately known as "fudge me" boots.

[dwwin]

Don't want to split hairs but the swastika is from Hinduism (and then adopted by Buddhism).

That's correct and it can face both ways. In old Hindu scripts the 'clockwise' and 'counterclockwise' can be found. As for the time being nobody knows for sure why that is so. Quite generally it means 'well being' and the Thai greeting 'sawasdee' originates from it. Hitler just stole it.
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that having kids running around in uniforms is just ridiculous. I mean any form/sort of uniform. They simply don't understand yet what it means to wear one. 

[IHvACrtfctImAGrtTchr]

If they are pull Eric Cartmans, then that is out of line...

As for the curriculum director, oh well another wacko, but that is the 4th well maybe 3rd.
XXX wasn't too bad. She didn't know shite about teaching or administration.

I am a doctor of  Ayurvedic medicine, maybe I can apply for her position

[Andy]

Dudes, I'm shocked. I couldn't believe this. Where's the western media on this? This school needs to be shamed.

[blackpanther]

SEIG HEIL KRAAAAAAPPPPP

[Krungsri]

So sad.  These children and their teachers have so far to go before they can even connect, let alone catch up with the international community on matters of sensitivity.  So many years of isolation and insularity feeding ignorance and national chauvinism in Thailand.  Mind you, it's not so many years since Europeans generally held brazenly insensitive or vicious attitudes towards Jews, people of colour, indigenous people, etc.  But to be so ignorant of the Nazis and the Holocaust.  It's hard to believe.

[brian_q]

This is Thailand... ignorance is our most important product.

[logically_speaking]

While Thai kids dressing up as Nazis is quite odd, the swastika has been a Buddhist symbol long before Hitler apprpoiated it.
Brian
Sorry to cut rabbis, (errr, split hares) Check the direction kids.  Counter-clockwise (left-spinning) is Nazi; clockwise is hindu/ buddhist

[bawpenyang]

First, this display is utterly vulgar. This school needs more than "fine tuning".The swastika was the Phoenician sun symbol. The nazis simply reversed it. Finally, should this school be allowed to advertise for teachers on the "well-known" web site?

[sabai_sabai]

While this isn't too surprising, I'm glad that we now have pictures to show that this is not the Hindu/Buddhist tradition that is being referenced here.  (Clockwise or not...if they don't know enough to get why this is just plain offensive they very well may not have been paying attention to this detail.  Notice that the swastikas are going in both directions here.)  Thanks for the photos Nick.

[Nick2007]

Sorry to cut rabbis, (errr, split hares) Check the direction kids.  Counter-clockwise (left-spinning) is Nazi; clockwise is hindu/ buddhist

Dunno where this idea comes from. 

They have them all over the place in India and Nepal, if anyone's been there, and they face both ways. They have them on all the buses in Nepal, one clockwise, one anti.

Plenty on their own going the same direction as the Nazi ones as well.






Tibet too....








The kids (or teachers probably) just got it round the wrong way on the banner.  They had it going the other way for their dancing backdrop though.

I think the huge plackards with "NA" and "ZI", German flags, red and white borders on the swastikas, guns, salutes, German eagles, brownshirts, etc. kind of puts the Buddhist symbol of peace angle to rest anyway. 

[hero]

Yes, I think it would be pretty hard to argue that the decorations in the pictures above were symbols of peace and harmony!

[preceptor]

Thewpaingarm TSEP is an interesting place.  The teachers there are for the most part nice and the kids are easy to deal with.  It is a little disconcerting when you walk past a class and one of the teachers is SCREAMING at some poor 11 year old who probably doesn't even understand why the farang is so angry.  I saw this more than once. 

A problem does lie with management.  I made every attempt to be patient and understanding that "this is Thailand"  and things are not always as organized as they could be.  I even talked to one new teacher at the beginning and encouraged him to relax and be patient.  The curriculum director (who Mike mentioned earlier) provides poorly defined curriculum goals and little reliable direction.  If a problem arises she acts as if the problem lies solely with the teacher and becomes accusatory and rude.  I had to more than once stop conversations in front of students because she was starting to turn the conversation unpleasant.  Additionally, the head of secondary took almost a full month to learn how to be civil to me.  I couldn't really think of a reason why he would develop disdain for me.

TSEP requires a ton of paperwork solely for the purpose of satisfying Thai administrators.  The long plan required for all classes was due prior to receiving curriculum goals or even the materials for classes.  I informed them early on that the workbook given to me for two classes was different from the one provided the students and after three months nothing was done about it.

When I had first started working there, a teacher mentioned the Nazi thing.  I hadn't realized at that point that the school actually spent money on a stage and set.  During my second month there, I found this thread and was deeply disturbed by the pictures.  I asked one of the high achievers at the school his opinion of the pictures and he didn't have one.  It was as if the whole thing happened and the staff didn't say anything about it. 

They do have some teachers there who have been there for a while, but they joke and have a list of the all the teachers who choose to move on quickly.  Some are really great teachers and I don't understand why they stay. There is one who could easily get a better job.

In the end I had lost all motivation to teach there.  After three months, I had to move on and take a better offer.

[jimtheclarkster]

I just read all the posts on here and I have to put a few thing straight.....I've been here 2 1/2 years and really feel the school has been portrayed unfairly.

".....The Curriculum Director ***** has made comments towards male teachers expressing her interest in them, and when they refuse they usually get fire soon after...." 
         This statement is patently untrue, and I'm pretty sure was made in spite.  She is not at all like that. I can understand why the staff was upset about those long and numerous meetings during their lunchtime, that was inconsiderate, but she was just getting started and she is getting better about that. I honestly think things have improved since she started.

As to our recently departed staff member's comments.... well, we had two recent departures....one was a likable fellow but he used the school just to get a 90 day visa (quitting promptly after receiving it..not nice.. especially when he didn't grade all of his midterm tests)....and the other was probably one of the most arrogant people I have ever met.  I can understand why he has built up his defenses (I am sure the poor guy probably took a lot of  **** growing up in America with that name), but he was just so rude and nasty (95% of the time) that all his former students cheered exuberantly when I told them he had quit (and no tears were shed in the staffrooms that I saw).  I wish him the best but until he learns to get that chip off his shoulder and try to get to know people and allow them to get to know him, he will always have the same problems wherever he goes. 

TSEP requires a ton of paperwork solely for the purpose of satisfying Thai

  Well, if you consider a brief syllabus of what you will cover in a term and a basic weekly lesson plans a "ton".  I don't think anyone who even begins to call themselves a teacher would agree with that.  I will grant that some of the class curriculum's are vague, but sometimes you just have to shrug it off and try your best. 

the Nazi thing......as if the whole thing happened and the staff didn't say anything about it.

  Yeah, that day was pretty bad.  But I feel my being the closest thing to a JEW (1/4 blood relative) the school has gives me the leeway to say this: It was more funny and ridiculous (how amazingly ignorant and insensitive to world history these people are) than upsetting.  I don't have a jewish last name and I don't look particulary jewish so all my life I've heard the nicest whitest people say and actually believe much much more vile and disgusting things. Those things upset me more than some silly 'sports' day event put on by people who had know idea what those symbols represented..

Some are really great teachers and I don't understand why they stay

  Most probably for the better than average salary (47K 1st year, 50K 2d and 53K 3d + up to 40K bonus and one paid summer school off after your second year, 23 teaching hours a week - and easy promotion to management if you want it - though so far I'm thinking it ain't really worth it).  Yeah their may be better circumstances, but in Thailand not that many. In addition, the vast majority of our kids are really sweet (even the few troubled ones aren't as bad as I was at their age). The new building is spacious with incredible views especially in the staffrooms.  Pretty good resources with better to come.

As to staff turnover, very very few schools don't have this problem.  Everyone knows that's the nature of this kind of work in Thailand. 

The school feels like they pay too much, and has fired over half of their staff this year.

   I kind of agree with the first part, but the second part is far from the truth... the vast majority quit and to go home or somewhere else.....and almost every firing I have seen was justifiable and there have been very few of those....you have to be a special combination of  /lazy/stupid/rude/absent/ to ever get fired.... the fake degree thingy was really the fault of the former foreigner boss (he should have nipped the idea in the bud when he first heard it..I was there and he didn't discourage or encourage it....).....but due to the school's former affiliation with the Thai-Rak-Thai party they have to walk the straight and narrow on a lot of things now.....

    So do I think this place is paradise?  Far from it.  It can be confusing and maddening at times. There are hassles: stupid time clock (in 7:30 out 4:30 everyday) (bad Singaporean textbooks) (chronic last minute changes) (ridiculous thai curriculum standards)...and a few more I can't think of right now....Aren't these basically the same complaints that almost every teacher at a primary/secondary Thai school has...sure I know there are better schools but not many and they aren't easy to get into....

      The bottom line is if you are committed, care about your children, and can work well with others this ain't a bad place to be.   

[RobRoy]

Hey...sounds like a typical private school to me...

[Krungsri]

Hey...sounds like a typical private school to me...

Nevertheless, good to hear another side to the story.

I thought the whole Nazi theme was truly awful and hard to believe.  Not because I thought the kids or teachers intended to be totally insensitive, but because you'd think at least someone in the admin or teaching staff would have some idea of recent world history and could have prevented it.  It's the ignorance that I find so depressing.

[jimtheclarkster]

Yeah it was amazing to me.  I should emphasize it wasn't our kids (TSEP) who were dressed up like that, the school is a combination of three schools and the pseudo-Nazis were from the Thai side.  That day I saw the owners watching the foreign staff's reaction to that display (they are western educated - but have very little involvement with the everyday running of the school - I know they would have stopped it if they had been aware) and I am sure someone got spoken to about the poor choice made. I seriously doubt that theme will ever be allowed to appear here again.

[fed_up]

...and I am sure someone got spoken to about the poor choice made. I seriously doubt that theme will ever be allowed to appear here again.

So, you're basically saying that "it's all OK now, since somebody got spoken to" ? Unbelievable !!

Never ceases to amaze me how meek these people become ASA they step off the plane at Suvarnabumi (previously Don Muang). Same people who would be screaming for blood in front of the school if the same scenario took place in their home countries...

P.S. Yeah, you're right about something: they must really be paying you good to  their gluteus maximii day in day out.

[jimtheclarkster]

So, you're basically saying that "it's all OK now, since somebody got spoken to" ? Unbelievable !!

   One thing you learn as you grow older and mature is to pick your battles; some things are worth fighting for and somethings aren't.... and making a big deal out of this was just not worth it...had they distributed 'hate' literature or done than anything other than wear silly outfits and dance around....I would have felt compelled to do something....but that's all it was
   Afterwards most of us with did talk to our older students about what they knew about Nazi ism and when they understood what those swastikas represented most were deeply bothered by the incident.  And as I said, I could tell by the look of embarrassment on the owners' faces as they watched all the foreign staffs' amazed looks, pointing and guffawing that something had to have been said. I haven't seen anything of that nature since.

   they must really be paying you good to their gluteus maximii day in day out.

   Another thing you gain with maturity is a greater ability to suffer fools.  Based on all the unfair slagging you given me, I am sure that those unlucky enough to find themselves in your presence suffer greatly.  Between your screen name and childish/stereotyping  comments you are obviously a major "staffroom whiner " that I am sure your co-workers would love to see just go home. 

   

[Nick2007]

...and I am sure someone got spoken to about the poor choice made. I seriously doubt that theme will ever be allowed to appear here again.

So, you're basically saying that "it's all OK now, since somebody got spoken to" ? Unbelievable !!

What would you like to happen?  Should all the teachers leave the school in protest? Write letters into the Bangkok Post? Should people rant and spit about it on an internet forum?

Or should this be understood for what it is, which is very, very bad taste and sheer, undiluted ignorance and then something constructive be done about it, like educating the children? Which is what the foreign teachers are doing at the place, some of them very well.

There really are bigger issues out there to get worked up about. 
 

Never ceases to amaze me how meek these people become ASA they step off the plane at Suvarnabumi (previously Don Muang). Same people who would be screaming for blood in front of the school if the same scenario took place in their home countries...

Seems like you're the only one screaming for anything here mate. Don't get upset because other people prefer reason and constructive solutions to deal with these situations. 

P.S. Yeah, you're right about something: they must really be paying you good to  their gluteus maximii day in day out.

JimtheC corrected some outright mistruths and slanderous comments that were made on this thread about a member of staff at this school. As well as adding some even-handed comments about the positive aspects of the school, he also pointed out that it is "far from a paradise". Correcting downright lies and keeping an element of balance hardly constitute kissing ass.

Or would you rather people feed on hysteria and misinformation?

Wait, don't answer that.

[fed_up]

What would you like to happen?  Should all the teachers leave the school in protest?

Yeah, that'd be a good start.

Write letters into the Bangkok Post?

And, that'd be a good way to continue.

Should people rant and spit about it on an internet forum?

Read the previous posts, that's already been done by many others.

Or should this be understood for what it is, which is very, very bad taste and sheer, undiluted ignorance and then something constructive be done about it, like educating the children? Which is what the foreign teachers are doing at the place, some of them very well.

Oh, God forbid, nooo !!! Should never rock the boat at all costs, the paycheck is absolutely much more important than a few Nazi shows. Go look up the definition of meekness from a dictionary, would you ?

There really are bigger issues out there to get worked up about. 

Such as ?

Seems like you're the only one screaming for anything here mate. Don't get upset because other people prefer reason and constructive solutions to deal with these situations. 

 

JimtheC corrected some outright mistruths and slanderous comments that were made on this thread about a member of staff at this school. As well as adding some even-handed comments about the positive aspects of the school, he also pointed out that it is "far from a paradise". Correcting downright lies and keeping an element of balance hardly constitute kissing ass.

 

Or would you rather people feed on hysteria and misinformation?

Wait, don't answer that.

Don't worry, I won't.

[fed_up]

... I could tell by the look of embarrassment on the owners' faces as they watched all the foreign staffs' amazed looks...

OMG !!! You embarrassed the owners !! Oh, gee, that must have been a very hard thing to do, all the "giving amazed looks, pointing and guffawing".

   Another thing you gain with maturity is a greater ability to suffer fools.  Based on all the unfair slagging you given me, I am sure that those unlucky enough to find themselves in your presence suffer greatly.  Between your screen name and childish/stereotyping  comments you are obviously a major "staffroom whiner " that I am sure your co-workers would love to see just go home.

And now you're embarrassing yourself, so why don't you just... I don't know, maybe give me an amazed look, point at me, or guffaw ?

[Samoht2550]

These posts remind me of the staff room on a daily basis. I am not excluded in the ranting. The school like many schools in Thailand has it problems. Just look at the forum on this site. I was outraged on Sports Day and found it funny how the Thai's at Thewphaingarm know so little about the history in the last 100 years. But it makes sense since they don't even know their history. But neither do we since history is full of lies. In the west and the east. One thing is for sure. History tends to repeat itself. I don't know if they learned their lesson or not. Time will tell......See you next Tuesday

[Mods-Rockers]

Why do I get the impression that fed-up failed an interview at this school?

[fed_up]

Why do I get the impression that fed-up failed an interview at this school?

Nope, mods, quite the contrary, never failed an i/v in the L.O.S as yet (and only one in my home country). My gripe (if you will) is about the bigotry of some posters here. They are more of a king than the king himself until they get their behinds kicked squarely and then and only then they turn into rabid dogs. I am more of a justice and equality for all kinda guy and have never shied away from calling a black kettle black (instead of chewing on the same old cud of "oh, well, the school has problems, but what school in Thailand doesn't ?").

Well guys if you have been man (or woman) enough to have raised your voices on that day, then I'd have taken my hat off to you. But, until you do that don't think that by coming here and writing a few brown-nosed lines about how wonderful your school is is going to earn brownie points with me. So, next time if some horrible thing like that happens, raise your voice, together. Until you do that, just read the horrified comments here and keep on gawking, pointing fingers and guffawing.

[Samoht2550]

Maybe it would be better if you put all this anger into current events.........How many people have died over recently because of our new Hitlers? Bush, Blair, Howard and the nation of Israel  
 

[Sadly-confused]

Two posts removed. Jimtheclarkster and fed_up, if the two of you are going to act like little girls throwing hissyfits then expect to be treated as such! try and get your acts together and post sensibly without the hindrance of anger clouding your judgments!

[Andy]

This thread is locked for a bit, all has been said that needs to be said.

[ajarn1970]

I wouldn't be surprised if half these students have absolutely no idea about Hitler's Third Reich. I had an assignment teaching social science to kids about that age and half of them had no idea what happened during the Second World War. One of my students actually thought that Germany won the war until I set him straight on the issue (he only said Germany because his mother married a German man). Another kid said France won for pretty much the same reason (now that's even funnier, France couldn't win a chook raffle  ) Ha ha...just jokes guys!

Nevertheless, I feel the school admin should have planned this better as the sooner the world forgets this horrific event / era / movement, the better. As long as we don't forget the sacrifices made to stop it and the lessons learnt. That's my 

[airpuka]

This is completely 100% unacceptable.These stupid thai pricks have no idea how many people died preventing those arian nazi fucks from taking over the world.Thailand is the most cowardly nation in existence, they did support the axis but were to pussy to deliver their declaration of war to america because at that time the tide was turning in the war.So what do they do when its all over ? they build a gigantic VICTORY MONUMENT.If i was a teacher at that school i swear to god i would have gone up to the principal and knocked him/her the fudge out.I really hope this story gets out im going to email this link to as much news papers as i possibly can and i encourage the rest of you to do this as well.Ignorance is no excuse in this matter and dont give me any shit about " oh that nazi mark is a buddhist sign" this is different they are marching with guns and carrying the Hitler eagle.

[sickofitall]

Your points are well taken.  No place is perfect.  But you could lend greater credence to your arguments if you proofed your comments before posting.  Easy mistakes to make, I admit, but a teacher should be more careful.  We are held to a higher standard and knowing the difference between know and no or their and there is important.  These mistakes detract from your credibility and bring into question your suitability as a teacher.  Holding a four-year degree does not a teacher make.

Best of luck to you in your teaching career and experiences abroad.

[bomha]

I could not believe it.  Then I saw it.  Incredible but true.

Try to imagine something less culturally ignorant, insensitive.  Try to imagine how 'sports day' would be if the students showed less respect for Thailand than what the Nazi sports day showed for World War II.  Naked Thai ajarns fornicating with monks?  Total disrespect of the monarchy? 

But beyond imagination, I suspect it is impossible to educate these Thai educators on what an international travesty their Thai students have done in Thailand in the name of education.  They're beyond redemption.  I say, TEFLWatch should put the school in the Hall of Shame just for this sports day.

The direction of the swastika is meaningless.  Look at the students dressed as soldiers, the repeated labeling of the swastika with the word NAZI a meter high, the Thai boys goose-stepping.  What next: a reenactment of the rape of Nanking by our friends the Japanese army, or a reenactment of the rape of the Korean comfort women by the Japanese army?  A reenactment of Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march?

Hall of Shame.  Reason enough right there in the photos.  No excuse, no explanation, no fruitless negotiations with the ignorant uneducated Thai educators is needed.

[Nick2007]

they did support the axis but were to pussy to deliver their declaration of war to america because at that time the tide was turning in the war.So what do they do when its all over ? they build a gigantic VICTORY MONUMENT.

Erm....Victory Monument is nothing to do with Thailand's position in WW II. It commemorates territorial disputes with France in 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Monument_(Bangkok)

  I say, TEFLWatch should put the school in the Hall of Shame just for this sports day.
             ....................................... ......
Hall of Shame.  Reason enough right there in the photos.  No excuse, no explanation, no fruitless negotiations with the ignorant uneducated Thai educators is needed.

Which would accomplish what? 

How does this obviously tasteless and ignorant event negatively affect the work conditions of teachers at the school? That is what the Hall of Shame is for, is it not? It's been nearly a year ago now since it happened as well.

[Thai Me Up]

bomha,
I was completely stunned when I saw the pics of the Nazi celebration at Thewpaingarm.  I agree - Thewpaingarm should be slammed into the Hall of Shame on TEFL Watch.  The staff - thai or farang - that produced this "event" deserve to be humiliated and ridiculed on the international level.

If you are/were a farang teacher at this school and stood by silently for this despicable spectacle, how do you sleep at night?

Explaining that the swastika faces the wrong way, that the event was a year ago, that "no place is perfect," or that a Nazi celebration does not "negatively affect the work conditions at the school" are examples of the worst type of cowardly rationalization I have ever heard from teaching colleagues.

Hall of Shame for this school and let them rot in it forever.

[Nick2007]

Explaining that the swastika faces the wrong way, that the event was a year ago, that "no place is perfect," or that a Nazi celebration does not "negatively affect the work conditions at the school" are examples of the worst type of cowardly rationalization I have ever heard from teaching colleagues.

Hall of Shame for this school and let them rot in it forever.

Ok. So clarify for me then. What is the Hall of Shame for exactly? Is it for exhibiting bad taste? Displaying ignorance?

I thought it was for schools grossly mistreating their staff, serious cheating of teachers out of their money, unfair dismissals, that kind of thing. No?

...and, same question again, what would putting this school into the Hall of Shame achieve?

[Nemesis]

Yeah and that's the way I see it Nick to. I've been seeing a lot of funky things in the comments and I've decided to start highllighting them on the main page. It's ok. I won't cheapen the Hall of Shame by putting this school in it, but I will spread the word about what they are doing. In fact, I'm sure there are some who would consider this to be a positive.

[diaw]

Lest we forget:

Thailand supported Japan during WW2.

They also declared war on the USA, but, per chance, the final documents were never delivered by the Ambassador at the time.

These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.

[Sadly-confused]

Lest we forget:

Yes Diaw lest we do forget:

Thailand supported Japan during WW2.
 

As Vichy France, supported Nazi Germany! As many Afrikaans supported Hitler! Lest we forget the neo Nazi white supremist government that grew from those Nazi supporting Afrikaners! People without sin and all that!

They also declared war on the USA, but, per chance, the final documents were never delivered by the Ambassador at the time.

Yes also true and te UK as well,  as I read my history though it seemed that the mil govt declared war but the embassy were loyalists and did not deliver the docs because there was no royal accent!
Lest not forget as well the help proffered to escaped allied prisoners of war by ordinary Thais! Lest not forget those Thais who actively worked with the American SIS, Such one sided looking at history is hardly something that would be expected from a PhD student with such a high (claimed) IQ   

These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.

Diaw, did your own countrymen care about western concepts of morality when they were tearing up Soweto? And those were people who claimed to be western! Guess what! The Thais are not western and give a toss about eastern concepts of morality (which we may, or may not, understand) not western.

OK, I found the scenes despicable and in bad taste, However that was my perception as a westerner in an eastern country, I for one have no intention of attempting the futility of trying to change these people, and if I fopund that what I see is something I can not take (as many here seem to!) then I would take the only option left to me as a logical thinker, that’s GTF out!

[macaroni]

In much the same vain, I doubt few of the kids walking round in t-shirts acclaiming "F**k off Nazi scum" actually know the meaning of either nazi or scum, but the t-shirts are quite popular down my neck of the woods.

What, like they would know what "F**k off" means?

[sabai_sabai]

Cultural insensitivity, even when unintentional due to ignorance is still bound to provoke a passionate reaction. They don't know because they're Thai (teachers!) is not a valid excuse.  I sincerely do hope that this does make big news and this inexcusable ignorance causes loss of big face. 

Thais will and do lambaste foreigners overseas for the same kinds of mistakes made out of ignorance. Want an example?  Five years ago in the US, an advertisement in a small city's weekly paper had a picture of HM dressed in hip-hop attire.  (No pictures of HM are in the linked articles)

This was Thailand's official response:http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-06-27/pretzel.shtml

This is what some Thai people had to say: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-07-05/mailbag4.shtml  (warning: many letters here make youtube comments seem articulate)


While I'm not defending the ignorance of Westerners, we also have a right to complain when someone does something so completely offensive.  Carry on.

[airpuka]

Your points are well taken.  No place is perfect.  But you could lend greater credence to your arguments if you proofed your comments before posting.  Easy mistakes to make, I admit, but a teacher should be more careful.  We are held to a higher standard and knowing the difference between know and no or their and there is important.  These mistakes detract from your credibility and bring into question your suitability as a teacher.  Holding a four-year degree does not a teacher make.

Best of luck to you in your teaching career and experiences abroad.

wow is it hypocrite day?

[CosmicSurfer]

As I just said to my Thai Wife... and my American friend...

Thai's only learn superficially about Western culture and History. Nothing in-depth, unless they specialize.

And it's no Different in the West, where we only learn supperficially about Asian Culture and history, nothing in-depth.

I learned all about Bismark in my Canadian High school  .. but I Never heard of Chulalongkorn until I moved here.

Thai's had to deal with the Japanese in WW II, not the German Nazis.. so that's why they can't relate to, or feel our disgust.

To them, it's just a Fashion statement. They think it's cool...

If I were a teacher at that school I would take the opportunity to TEACH them about the nazis and the holocaust... after all We are supposed to be educators.

So demand Equal time.. and Teach them.. better yet.. schedule a movie.. Show them "Life is Beautiful" or "Schindler's List" then talk to them about it.

Those movies opened up my wife's eyes... and her desire to learn more.

Just my opinion,
CosmicSurfer

[Thai Me Up]

So demand Equal time.. and Teach them.. better yet.. schedule a movie.. Show them "Life is Beautiful" or "Schindler's List" then talk to them about it.

Those movies opened up my wife's eyes... and her desire to learn more.

Just my opinion,
CosmicSurfer

So your wife only became aware of something called WWII and the Holocaust after "Life is Beautiful" or "Schindler's List?"  Ummmmmmmmmm  You folks never saw a documentary, read a magazine article or a book on the subject?  Never read the news on-line or otherwise when the Holocaust is memorialized each and every year?

I'm circulating the pics appearing on this thread among my media contacts.  If they want to pick up the ball and run with it, they can.  I think the teachers who stood idly by while the students prepared Nazi costumes, Nazi banners, Nazi paraphernalia and Nazi dance routines are cowards.  Any excuses offered on the students' behalf (i.e., "it was a fashion statement") or lame duck teachers are cop-outs.

[Nick2007]

Thais will and do lambaste foreigners overseas for the same kinds of mistakes made out of ignorance. Want an example?  Five years ago in the US, an advertisement in a small city's weekly paper had a picture of HM dressed in hip-hop attire.  (No pictures of HM are in the linked articles)

This was Thailand's official response:http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-06-27/pretzel.shtml

This is what some Thai people had to say: http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-07-05/mailbag4.shtml  (warning: many letters here make youtube comments seem articulate)

Good links. 

....not to mention the youtube national hissy-fit.

Watch them pull their hair out and insult all "farangs" without discrimination (in very poor English) when someone even hints at making fun of what they hold dear. Meanwhile they will happily remain totally ignorant of what other cultures quite rightly find deeply offensive and insulting. 

Here's some quotes from the letters on the link.

 this reminded me how stupid americans are. You are so insiensitive of other cultures and values. And you think that all other country in the world shoud follow your sick society...

That's why world trade centre bulidings were bomb. You are not respect any other local traditional, it is not right. Now I really hope that there will be another attack in your country.

We've never done something like that to joke about your country.
...........
And hey..I dont think America has Œculture' anyway.You sto.e
then named it 'American Cultures' isn't it?
Is this right? "Please respect our country" and "We've never done anything to insult you" then "America has no culture." 
Of course Thai culture has nooooothing to do with India.   

Double standards. Hypocrisy. Jingoism. Ignorance. Rampant xenophobia. Immaturity. Yes.

Nazi sympathies. Racism. Anti-semitism. Fascist values. No.

Thai's only learn superficially about Western culture and History. Nothing in-depth, unless they specialize.

And it's no Different in the West, where we only learn supperficially about Asian Culture and history, nothing in-depth.

Knowing about the Nazis is hardly in-depth. Even the slightest, passing knowledge of World history would include enough about the Nazis to know the significance of this kind of imagery.

I knew who Hirohito, Mahatma Gandhi, Pol Pot and Mao were by about 13 years old!

If I were a teacher at that school I would take the opportunity to TEACH them about the nazis and the holocaust... after all We are supposed to be educators.

That's exactly what some teachers did.

While some here are making very productive suggestions, such as teachers should have "knocked out the principal", or that they're cowards, and how can they sleep at night, etc., teachers are actually attempting to educate the people that are obviously bad enough in need of it that they'd do something like this.

[diaw]

Lest we forget:

Yes Diaw lest we do forget:

Thailand supported Japan during WW2.
 

As Vichy France, supported Nazi Germany! As many Afrikaans supported Hitler! Lest we forget the neo Nazi white supremist government that grew from those Nazi supporting Afrikaners! People without sin and all that!

They also declared war on the USA, but, per chance, the final documents were never delivered by the Ambassador at the time.

Yes also true and te UK as well,  as I read my history though it seemed that the mil govt declared war but the embassy were loyalists and did not deliver the docs because there was no royal accent!
Lest not forget as well the help proffered to escaped allied prisoners of war by ordinary Thais! Lest not forget those Thais who actively worked with the American SIS, Such one sided looking at history is hardly something that would be expected from a PhD student with such a high (claimed) IQ   

These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.

Diaw, did your own countrymen care about western concepts of morality when they were tearing up Soweto? And those were people who claimed to be western! Guess what! The Thais are not western and give a toss about eastern concepts of morality (which we may, or may not, understand) not western.

OK, I found the scenes despicable and in bad taste, However that was my perception as a westerner in an eastern country, I for one have no intention of attempting the futility of trying to change these people, and if I fopund that what I see is something I can not take (as many here seem to!) then I would take the only option left to me as a logical thinker, that’s GTF out!

Dear 'Sadly_Confused',

Let me, for the record, lay your mind to rest specifically in regards to my ancestry in South Africa. I come from, in the main, British stock.

The main driving elements of the South Africans you refer to were of Dutch ancestry. At that point - WW2, South Africa was indeed split between supporting Britain, or Germany. Sense prevailed to the chagrin of the Afrikaaner community.

For the record, I never took up arms against fellow South Africans of colour different to my own. This was a conscious decision, not supported by many of my countrymen. It made me somewhat of a social outcast at that time. In later years, I actively campaigned for & supported the change & normalisation of SA.

I trust that this corrects your misconceptions.

Kind regards,
diaw...

[bomha]

All right; perhaps I threw a hissy fit back there, and I have calmed down a bit.  Ne'ertheless, I still fail to see how an entire student body of adolescents, with full knowledge of their teachers, can reenact or imitate a historical event which is fairly well known, without some sentient being in the place knowing that the Nazis were bad.  Hitler, bad.  Pol Pot, bad.  Invading Burmese, bad.  How, apart from the most absurd xenophobia on the planet, can a huge staff of bachelor-degree-holding educators be ignorant that Nazi + holocaust + German uniform is bad?  Does the faculty have no member who studied history?  Mind boggling.

Many major historical events fade away.  I do not expect the Thais to appreciate the event at Runnymeade in 1215, or recognize the document signed there by a far-away king.  However, any country which still hangs pictures of 19th century monarchs on their walls ought to know who the Nazis were.

Perhaps the few farangs who teach there, and have the nerve and the opportunity to set the record straight, can attempt to teach the brighter students something about the Holocaust (although I doubt that few will do so).  If this has been an annual event, and they dare to repeat it, what should the farangs do?

[airpuka]

well i sent the link of this website to every news agency i can think of and tons of jewish news agencies so if one of them actually reads it expect this to be big news and the scumbags that work at that school to all be screwed. another question though, How can any farang teacher that worked at that school not tell them this is a horrible thing to do? how could you even live with your self being associated with that shit. It is a very big deal, we have to respect our dead ancestors who fought to the death to prevent the nazis from enslaving us all.Im american and one of the few things i can truly be proud of my country for was helping take out the nazis.I strongly encourage all of you to email any news agency you can with these pictures, we have to get the word out on this.

[Nick2007]

well i sent the link of this website to every news agency i can think of and tons of jewish news agencies so if one of them actually reads it expect this to be big news and the scumbags that work at that school to all be screwed. another question though, How can any farang teacher that worked at that school not tell them this is a horrible thing to do? how could you even live with your self being associated with that shit. It is a very big deal, we have to respect our dead ancestors who fought to the death to prevent the nazis from enslaving us all.Im american and one of the few things i can truly be proud of my country for was helping take out the nazis.I strongly encourage all of you to email any news agency you can with these pictures, we have to get the word out on this.

Well done on helping taking out the Nazis. A good job done on "taking out" the Indians in America too! Putting pictures of "redskins" on American football helmets is ok though. That's acceptable. These prepubescent Thais wearing Nazi gear is a real problem though. Have I got it right?

Yours,

a scumbag who works at that school. 

[fed_up]

Well done on helping taking out the Nazis. A good job done on "taking out" the Indians in America too! Putting pictures of "redskins" on American football helmets is ok though. That's acceptable. These prepubescent Thais wearing Nazi gear is a real problem though. Have I got it right?

No, you haven't.

(I am) a scumbag who works at that school. 

Finally you got something right !!

[sabai_sabai]

While I wouldn't continue to work at a school where something like that happened (I grew up in a Jewish community and have very strong feelings about this sort of thing) I don't think that personal attacks directed at Nick are the right way to deal with this; he did post the pictures after all.

Without the pictures we'd still be arguing about if the swastikas were clockwise or not and which means what, etc.  This topic would have died an early death or gone way off topic.

[Sadly-confused]

Many major historical events fade away.  I do not expect the Thais to appreciate the event at Runnymeade in 1215, or recognize the document signed there by a far-away king.  However, any country which still hangs pictures of 19th century monarchs on their walls ought to know who the Nazis were.

 

Should they Bomha? My local back home still carries a pic of queen Vicky behind the bar, I doubt though that more than one  in a hundred locals knows WTF Pol Pot was nor what he did, and that’s in an area that saw most of its infrastructure blitz to the ground in 42/43! And don’t forget that Pol Pot was a hell of a lot closer time wise than Hitler!

[Mods-Rockers]

Im american and one of the few things i can truly be proud of my country for was helping take out the nazis.I strongly encourage all of you to email any news agency you can with these pictures, we have to get the word out on this.

Please remember that your precious country did not give a fudge about the nazies nor what they were doing until one of their comrades in arms (the japs) kicked your ass sideways to hell and back on dec 6th! In fact the father of one
BTW can I ask are you am American or a jewish American?

[Mods-Rockers]

oops double post

[Sadly-confused]

I trust that this corrects your misconceptions.

Kind regards,
diaw...

Thamks for the reply Diaw, but no misconceptions at all! Merely generalizations! It seemed that you, in your post was happy with generalizations “These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.”  So I assumed that you would be equally happy with generalizations about your Nazi country!

[Nick2007]

While I wouldn't continue to work at a school where something like that happened (I grew up in a Jewish community and have very strong feelings about this sort of thing) I don't think that personal attacks directed at Nick are the right way to deal with this; he did post the pictures after all.
Without the pictures we'd still be arguing about if the swastikas were clockwise or not and which means what, etc.  This topic would have died an early death or gone way off topic.

Thank you. Apparently the extremely obvious needs to be stated for the benefit of some here.

[Thai Me Up]

Nick,
Thanks for posting those pics.

Can I ask you if there was/has been any fallout at your school from the on-line publication of the Nazi celebration pics?  After the event, did you or any group of farang teachers approach the admin and voice your horror at the event?  We're all armchair quarterbacking here, but I'd like to know what the follow-up was to Nazi day at your school.

[diaw]

I trust that this corrects your misconceptions.

Kind regards,
diaw...

Thamks for the reply Diaw, but no misconceptions at all! Merely generalizations! It seemed that you, in your post was happy with generalizations “These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.”  So I assumed that you would be equally happy with generalizations about your Nazi country!

You seem to be guilty of attacking the person, rather than debating the topic under discussion.

Sadly-confused
Global Moderator
TEFLWatcher

The illogical stance taken does seem sadly at odds with the title proffered.

[Sadly-confused]

Thanks for the reply Diaw, but no misconceptions at all! Merely generalizations! It seemed that you, in your post was happy with generalizations “These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.”  So I assumed that you would be equally happy with generalizations about your Nazi country!

You seem to be guilty of attacking the person, rather than debating the topic under discussion.

Sadly-confused
Global Moderator
TEFLWatcher

The illogical stance taken does seem sadly at odds with the title proffered.

Not at all Diaw, it seemed to me, and still seems to me for that matter, that I am attacking your stance. Of course if you believe that your stance is so firmly connected to your person, than an attack on one equates to an attack on both, then it does appear that there would be little room for debate without charges of ad hom attacks. Shame really!

[fed_up]

Can I ask you if there was/has been any fallout at your school from the on-line publication of the Nazi celebration pics?
After the event, did you or any group of farang teachers approach the admin and voice your horror at the event? 
We're all armchair quarterbacking here, but I'd like to know what the follow-up was to Nazi day at your school.

Yes, I agree with the others and extend my thanks for the pictures too. I have been one of the earliest voice-raisers on this topic about this incident and, along with others, I am still expecting to find out what the farang teachers did to voice their protest (and I am not talking about the "we educated the kids, made them understand, blah, blah, blah..." BS).

I have a faint idea that they did nothing as one might infer from this earlier post:

...
When I had first started working there, a teacher mentioned the Nazi thing.  I hadn't realized at that point that the school actually spent money on a stage and set.  During my second month there, I found this thread and was deeply disturbed by the pictures.  I asked one of the high achievers at the school his opinion of the pictures and he didn't have one.  It was as if the whole thing happened and the staff didn't say anything about it.
...

[Thai Me Up]

fed_up,
I'm going to wait to hear from Nick on my original question, but your hunch may be right, that the staff did absolutely nothing.

My experience with working with staff from England is that they complain privately but, like the Thais, tend to pull into their shells to avoid any confrontation.  Like you, I think an in-your-face event such as a Nazi celebration deserved more of a response than, "Well, they pay me 47K and what good what it do if I complained anyway...I'm an educator...blah, blah, blah."

Thanks for raising the alarm in your early posts on this thread.  And I do think that Nick showed a lot of courage by posting his pics on this forum.

[diaw]

Thanks for the reply Diaw, but no misconceptions at all! Merely generalizations! It seemed that you, in your post was happy with generalizations “These are no saints & could care less about western concepts of morality.”  So I assumed that you would be equally happy with generalizations about your Nazi country!

You seem to be guilty of attacking the person, rather than debating the topic under discussion.

Sadly-confused
Global Moderator
TEFLWatcher

The illogical stance taken does seem sadly at odds with the title proffered.

Not at all Diaw, it seemed to me, and still seems to me for that matter, that I am attacking your stance. Of course if you believe that your stance is so firmly connected to your person, than an attack on one equates to an attack on both, then it does appear that there would be little room for debate without charges of ad hom attacks. Shame really!

Your user moniker seems appropriate under the circumstances. I am not interested in rising to your bait. Sorry. Enjoy your life.

[Sadly-confused]

Your user moniker seems appropriate under the circumstances.

Possibly, but then again possibly not! I am indeed saddened that you choose to generalize against the whole population of this country based solely on your rather unfortunate experience with your family (both living and dead) in Issan. There again I am certainly not confused by your reaction, sad though it is, following the latter part of you PhD studies!

I am not interested in rising to your bait.

Nor by the looks of it are you interested in any form of debate that does not strictly follow your own set guidelines, many jarpies I know seem the same way, “play by my rules or I take my ball home”

Sorry.

I am not! Nor for that matter am I surprised!

Enjoy your life.

I always do, no ghosts in my garden dude!

[between myths]

Mr. Sadly-confused -- This is an important thread. I see your efforts at penis fencing with poster diaw as diminishing the dialogue. Getting a room or going PM with your little exercise seems more in keeping with the role of a mod. Please consider giving it a rest. Thank you, a concerned newbie

[Sadly-confused]

Mr. Sadly-confused -- This is an important thread. I see your efforts at penis fencing with poster diaw as diminishing the dialogue. Getting a room or going PM with your little exercise seems more in keeping with the role of a mod. Please consider giving it a rest. Thank you, a concerned newbie

Mr Between myths
Sorry you feel that way! The penis fencing (nice term) is however a side issue! The main issue is “This is an important thread.” My first question is; IS IT? What did we see? The pictures shown a bunch of adolescent, undereducated kids putting on a parody of a regime that has been dead some 60 years. It has been pointed out that similar parodies were performed by Monty Python some 30 years closer to the actual events and won international acclaim! And that was by a group of people who had lived through or at least had parents who had lived through the events in question!

You only have to check out the far right groups in Europe, and especially the states to see similar parades of Nazi emulating uniforms and paraphernalia, and that is by groups of people who know what it means. Here we have a group of kids putting on a show, possibly with little or no adult supervision.

What do we really have here? I like many others was appalled when I saw the story, But I like many others tempered how I felt about the show with an understanding that there was little that could be done to change it! Time cannot be put back and the show halted! One hopes that the farang teachers in place did do something to educate the students as to what the symbolism actually meant.

The other this we have is a small but very vocal group, who are baying for blood like the hounds of the Baskervilles gone mad! The are demanding that the school be shamed internationally, yeah like that will ever happen. If it did though, and knowing the Thai stubbornness for saving face, what do you honestly think would happen? I would bet baths of gold against baht coins that what we would see is hundreds of schools emulating this school and putting on similar parodies just so as to stick their noses up to the west!


There are times when you should wake them, but there are also times when the prudent thing to do is LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE!!!

[RobRoy]

And now a year after the event, everyone has an opinion.......

And yes, I'm at fault.  I looked at the pictures, read the comments from the teachers there and my initial reaction was, ah...over the top.  I was so shocked that I couldn't believe a school in any way, shape or form condone such an activity. 

Then I remembered where I was...in a culture where its just as offensive to touch or stand above a seniors head.  A culture that forgets all about the Japs visiting Thailand during WWII.  So, in my opinion, lets get realistic ladies and gentlemen.

Was the school trying to resurrect/condone/ or basically say Fascism is good?    I doubt it.

Was the school portraying Nazis as "cool" and if they did, did the students even understand?   I doubt it.

Lastly, a year after the event, what changes has this school event caused in Thai society, Nazi membership, or general acceptance of fascist beliefs?
None, would be my guess.

Get over it...Yes, it was in poor taste, yes it was even beyond poor taste, but what are the lasting affects of the event?   I work at the largest Uni in Thailand...haven't seen the place overrun with Nazis yet!

[bomha]

In the context of this thread, what do we mean by letting a rabid  dog lie sleeping, when in fact he's more vicious than the hounds of the Baskervilles?  This rabid dog killed six million Jews, about six million more Gentiles (especially Communists, gays, Gypsies, and TEACHERS!).  Is the school scheduled to repeat this abomination?  Did the farangs at this school let the rabid dog keep biting, without mentioning anything to the administration?

Next time this school puts on a skit at sports day, it would be a little bit less bad to stage a mock reenactment of Burma's most humiliating defeats of the Thais, complete with rapes of the Thai women.

[between myths]

A good parodist, comedian or satirist -- has a level of understanding and a knowledge of world history that these children and the "educators" responsible for them seem to lack. I would argue that what we see here may be better termed absurd and grotesque mimicry. Clumsily and unintelligently aping a truly horrible world event that resulted in millions of deaths merits shame. Though I doubt this site has the readership to bring any real "international shame" i compliment the effort. Ignoring some foolish behavior may be prudent but the institutionalized stupidity of the Thewpaingarm School that this thread appears to point out needs a bright light shined on it. The fact that other ignorant students, "educators" or administrators may react to this light by behaving similarly is no reason to fall silent, in my view. Stay calm. Stay focused. And embarrass these knuckle draggers until they stop this fucked up behavior they seem to view as educational.

[Thai Me Up]

between myths,
Welcome to the TW community.

Like you, I still cannot fathom the "aw shucks, it was a year ago, let sleeping dogs lie" response by teaching colleagues.  However, given that the SALARY is so sweet at Thewpaingarm, it's easy to overlook the Holocaust for that whopping 47K a month (tongue firmly planted in cheek).  I applaud the teacher who DID post the pictures...that was a step in the right direction, IMHO.

[RobRoy]

bomha,

IS there a sleeping dog, is it rabid, and did the Thais awaken the dog, rabid or not?  I'm not making excuses, but other than on the teaching community, what real affect has it on accepting fascism or the Nazis?  Other than offending pretty much all of the farangs in Thailand, was any Thai attitudes changed?  Did it increase their knowledge of Nazi atrocides?  NO, of course not, its just some dumbass thing a really stupid school did.

I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me that the Thai Nazi party membership/party sympathisers, etc has increased in the last year, I'll change my opinion.  Other than that, its just something as worthless today to get upset about as it was a year ago.   It really is ignorance on the schools part.

Let it be a reminder to teachers that, at times, we need to say this is over the line, vocally to the school management. 

[between myths]

I must say that I think looking for an increase in Thai Nazi Party membership as a means of judging this event eludes the point. I find myself wondering what are the educational values of an institution of learning that encourages such behavior?

It would be interesting to get an inside perspective. I see the school is currently recruiting. Perhaps an email or phone call could be made inviting input from a school administrator or at least pointing out this thread and asking for a comment.   

[Sadly-confused]

Well I for one second RR’s sentiments!

In the context of this thread, what do we mean by letting a rabid  dog lie sleeping, when in fact he's more vicious than the hounds of the Baskervilles?  This rabid dog killed six million Jews, about six million more Gentiles (especially Communists, gays, Gypsies, and TEACHERS!).  Is the school scheduled to repeat this abomination?  Did the farangs at this school let the rabid dog keep biting, without mentioning anything to the administration?

“when in fact he's more vicious” Sorry Bomha but get real! Reading the above rant you seem to be implying that the parody put on by these kids is some sort of reincarnation of the horror that was Nazi Germany! If the kids had had any inclination of what they were doing then I might have some agreement with you, BUT remember this is Thailand, these kids and their Thai teachers have difficulty understanding or just plain remembering their own history let alone something that happened half a world away! I do hope, as I have stated before and indeed others also, that the farang in place did do and for that matter are still doing something to show the staff and kids the error of their ways, But frankly the only rabid dogs I see on this thread are those baying for the schools head on a platter!

Next time this school puts on a skit at sports day, it would be a little bit less bad to stage a mock reenactment of Burma's most humiliating defeats of the Thais, complete with rapes of the Thai women.
 

Duh what? Try looking at the Thais view of that war, it differs dramatically from that seen by just about every man and his ferret around the world. But try telling a Thai that and guess what…

A good parodist, comedian or satirist -- has a level of understanding and a knowledge of world history that these children and the "educators" responsible for them seem to lack.

Totally agree! Do you think we can change that? Hardly!

Though I doubt this site has the readership to bring any real "international shame"

Again, totally agree!

Ignoring some foolish behavior may be prudent but the institutionalized stupidity of the Thewpaingarm School that this thread appears to point out needs a bright light shined on it.

If there is one thing that the Thais do really well, its “institutionalized stupidity” But again I ask, do you think the efforts of a few farang will change that?

The fact that other ignorant students, "educators" or administrators may react to this light by behaving similarly is no reason to fall silent, in my view. Stay calm. Stay focused. And embarrass these knuckle draggers until they stop this fucked up behavior they seem to view as educational.

yeah and terms like “knuckle draggers” is going to go a long way towards rationalizing with the Thai about this subject.
The world does not care what happens any more in SE Asia! It watched idly as Pol Pot raped his own country, its doing the square root of bugger all about the real shit happening in Burma, as we sit here and throw hissy fits about, what can only be described as a stupid fuckup by a bunch of school kids and their equally unknowing teachers!

[RobRoy]

Sadly

Great words!  Absolutely too fffing true.

[between myths]

I find myself reacting strongly to this. Is my reaction pragmatic or efficatious? No it isnt. Does this bother me? No it doesnt.

What this school did (does? will do again?) is shamefully stupid at best.

Sometimes it is just so fucking insane on planet thailand that i have to speak/write to stay sane. This place/culture reminds me of a species of amphibian that has been trapped in a dark cave for so many generations that none of them have eyes any more. They have no use for them...and it is the sighted that are the freaks.   

[Nemesis]

I have to disagree. I've publicized this thread for one big reason. It needs to get out in the open. It needs to be aired. Unfortunately, the schools needs to air its dirty laundry if they are to feel any shame. I read this thread and I think we all can agree that the school does need to be ashamed of itself.

Bomha says some good truth. ... They extremely if an Islamic school decided to dress up as Jamal Islamiyah and start celebrating the death of Thai buddhists.   I heard it again and again in Thailand, you must understand. Thai people feel things more than farangs.

I'm upset because it's another typical case of Thai hypocrisy. I don't care if the kids need to be educated about the holocaust, I don't even care if you want to debate whether it happened or not.(Not in this thread though) What I do care about is the fact that we as teachers have to deal with the absurdity of a educational system that thinks its ok to do shameful things. It's an educational system run by adminsitrators who show they are crude and thoughtless in public and don't expect any fallout. Why? Because Thai people are caring people, we must understand THEM no matter how uncaring they appear. 

They put farangs on TV and show them always saying how nice Thailand is. The food is good, the weather is good, thai culture is good. That's called being polite. I'm sorry, if I found a tourist in Afghanistan and I was an Afghani tv reporter, they'd probably say the same things to me. It's called being polite. But Thais use it as proof of their superiority.

I don't want the school admin's head on a platter, but I would like to see a contrite school admin apologize publicly about this. Saying they did wrong and we're uncaring towards other people's feelings. Now, do you think that could ever happen in Thailand? Have you ever heard a Thai person say they did wrong and were uncaring towards a farang' feelings?

Enough of a rant.

[Nick2007]

Nick,
Thanks for posting those pics.

Can I ask you if there was/has been any fallout at your school from the on-line publication of the Nazi celebration pics?  After the event, did you or any group of farang teachers approach the admin and voice your horror at the event?  We're all armchair quarterbacking here, but I'd like to know what the follow-up was to Nazi day at your school.

As others have already posted previously, the school is not one single unit. It's a very big school and it's divided up into different seperate parts. The parade and fancy dress show (which was nearly a year ago at this stage) was organised by a part of the school that the foreign staff have no connection with. None of the foreign teachers in our section have any contact with the Thai staff who put this together. The foreign teachers don't even know who the specific people were who chose the theme. 
The children who were in the dance and parade are not taught by the foreign teachers. The admin we deal with had nothing to do with this.

What did we see? The pictures shown a bunch of adolescent, undereducated kids putting on a parody of a regime that has been dead some 60 years. It has been pointed out that similar parodies were performed by Monty Python some 30 years closer to the actual events and won international acclaim! And that was by a group of people who had lived through or at least had parents who had lived through the events in question!

You only have to check out the far right groups in Europe, and especially the states to see similar parades of Nazi emulating uniforms and paraphernalia, and that is by groups of people who know what it means. Here we have a group of kids putting on a show, possibly with little or no adult supervision.

Good assessment.

One hopes that the farang teachers in place did do something to educate the students as to what the symbolism actually meant.

As has been said already, something was done.

There are times when you should wake them, but there are also times when the prudent thing to do is LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE!!!

 its just some dumbass thing a really stupid school did.

Common sense prevails.

I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me that the Thai Nazi party membership/party sympathisers, etc has increased in the last year, I'll change my opinion.  Other than that, its just something as worthless today to get upset about as it was a year ago.   It really is ignorance on the schools part.

Pure and simple.
 Ignorance is the real problem here, which is something that the mob baying for blood don't seem so concerned about.

What I do care about is the fact that we as teachers have to deal with the absurdity of a educational system that thinks its ok to do shameful things. It's an educational system run by adminsitrators who show they are crude and thoughtless in public and don't expect any fallout. Why? Because Thai people are caring people, we must understand THEM no matter how uncaring they appear. 

 

They put farangs on TV and show them always saying how nice Thailand is. The food is good, the weather is good, thai culture is good. That's called being polite. I'm sorry, if I found a tourist in Afghanistan and I was an Afghani tv reporter, they'd probably say the same things to me. It's called being polite. But Thais use it as proof of their superiority.

[diaw]

I truly wonder if many, or most, in fact, of the Thai students, or their teachers, understand the significance of what Nazism means to a western person?

Somehow, I doubt that their sense of morality & right-wrong, stretches that far into the Western psyche.

It was probably the 'bright idea' of someone who liked the idea of the Nazi symbolism & 'fashion', rather than someone with intrinsically evil intent.

The fundamental question to ask could be: "Will a Neo-fascist ideology suddenly begin sweeping through Thailand?"

The answer to that will, or should, determine your level of response, or otherwise.

[Nick2007]

It was probably the 'bright idea' of someone who liked the idea of the Nazi symbolism & 'fashion', rather than someone with intrinsically evil intent.

The fundamental question to ask could be: "Will a Neo-fascist ideology suddenly begin sweeping through Thailand?"

The answer to that will, or should, determine your level of response, or otherwise.

Good reply. Common sense again. 

[between myths]

Nothing that occurs in a school or classroom will suddenly sway a country toward neo-facist ideology or any other form of thinking/acting. This is a meaningless litmus test for deciding whether to speak out against ignorance. (It is however an excellant method of coping for some people and very likely the method at least some used on the day of the skit in question.)

[bomha]

I pride myself on being a reasonable person, so I'll retract my first harsh call for the head of the school administrator on a silver platter (John the Baptist).  Can we agree that the Thai administrators and faculty at the portion of this school which the farang cannot speak to or influence, are hopeless fugwits who don't have enough worldly knowledge to clean hongnams in hogwams?  Can we agree that WE have worked for simliar fugwits in Thailand?  When I saw my old boss recently, she maintained that the Japanese did not occupy Thailand during the second world war.  She's a nice lady with a good heart, and she's not bad at teaching English, but she's a witless fugwit.

Maybe it should be a question during the interview: "Does this school celebrate the Nazi Holocaust positively?"

My internet browser is open now to a blog of a fully qualified American school teacher who is proudly advertising that her international school is hosting Jody Williams, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for campaigning against land mines.  That's a school worth attending, but it's not in Thailand.

[RobRoy]

bomha,

I guess I missed something.....what interview?  I quickly went thru the thread again and saw no mention of it.  Or is it on the "other" site?

[Samoht2550]

I prefer to educate the children about current events. It can be mentioned as a reference. Why refer to something that my dead grandfathers fought for. It's better to discuss things we can change now. The U.S. and Britain have been Iraq killing for sometime now. For the sake of oil. How many people have died there?  The American flag is now the same symbol to me as the Nazi flag. Israel was given to the Jewish people now is pure racial cleansing. Why are we discussing WWII? We have been brainwashed that this is the worst that can happen. But it is still happening. The people are just not white. So we go back and look at our terrible history and say "We must educate these stupid Thais". I think we can focus more of our time on other useful causes. So the next time you see someone with the American flag or the British Flag, tell them its wrong. Educate them. Its your duty.  Sincerely, Another Stupid American

[Thai Me Up]

Why refer to something that my dead grandfathers fought for. It's better to discuss things we can change now....The American flag is now the same symbol to me as the Nazi flag.

Nice flamebait.  Fortunately for all of us, the Third Reich, which was supposed to last 1,000 years, barely lasted 10.  I'm hoping that Thewpaingarm school may even follow your "logic" and use the American flag and Americana for its next sports day celebration.

[bomha]

Please pardon me for not showing the context.

I meant, "If you're going for an interview with a Thai school, you might ask them during that interview, "Does this school glorify the Nazis of Germany?  Is Pol Pot a hero at this school?""  But the American lady is correct; it is more relevant to mention current events.  So you may ask, "During the September-October 2550 nonviolent struggle for democracy in Mayanmar, how many of your faculty led demonstrations and public protests, wrote letters, and discussed the movement in class more than you discussed your last bowel movement?"

bomha,

I guess I missed something.....what interview?  I quickly went thru the thread again and saw no mention of it.  Or is it on the "other" site?

[Samoht2550]

Why refer to something that my dead grandfathers fought for. It's better to discuss things we can change now....The American flag is now the same symbol to me as the Nazi flag.

Nice flamebait.  Fortunately for all of us, the Third Reich, which was supposed to last 1,000 years, barely lasted 10.  I'm hoping that Thewpaingarm school may even follow your "logic" and use the American flag and Americana for its next sports day celebration.

Fortunately for you, you are still alive. If my grandfathers had died I wouldn't be writing this. But other people are not so lucky which is my point. Americans have killed many in the name of democracy but in reality has made many people rich. When America goes down because of our facist ways, then I am sure Old Glory will be waving at Thewphaingarm.

[sabai_sabai]

Why refer to something that my dead grandfathers fought for.

Fortunately for you, you are still alive. If my grandfathers had died I wouldn't be writing this.

But other people are not so lucky which is my point. Americans have killed many in the name of democracy but in reality has made many people rich. When America goes down because of our facist ways, then I am sure Old Glory will be waving at Thewphaingarm.

Please, while I am not endorsing American foreign policy; I urge you to remove your tinfoil hat, read a book (perhaps a dictionary is would be a start) and get back on your medications.
 

[RobRoy]

sabai...the guy's a troll...as TMU said..flamebait.

[Samoht2550]

What does this name calling and shit slinging have to do when anything on these threads? Is this why we have a world full of problems? Nobody can get past their own egos to get anything done. Culture of Narcissism. Have it read it Sabai Sabai?

[RobRoy]

What does this name calling and shit slinging have to do when anything on these threads? Is this why we have a world full of problems? Nobody can get past their own egos to get anything done. Culture of Narcissism. Have it read it Sabai Sabai?

What does it have to do with the Thewpaingarm School in Bangkok is my question, as thats the name of this thread? 

When you get over 20 posts you can access the sour grapes forum and see how some of our posters are putting away their egos and coming together to solve all the problems of the world.  Keep posting and soon you'll be able to help us solve cultural hate issues, fight the gay Australian mafia, not to mention the culture of narcissim that is so very prevalent in the farang society here in Thailand.  With your help we are just one step closer to solving the Israel issue, unaccounted for nukes in the republic of Georgia and learning to what happened to all that oil money in Russia.

Thanks!

[Samoht2550]

Thanks Rob Roy. With the amount of post you have written, this is what you like to do in your spare time.

I did not like the Nazi parade I witnessed. I took pictures, asked student questions and then educated them. And I have told many people what happened almost a year ago. But we move on. Like I said, educating on current events and the environmental erosion of our planet seem more important. And now I am sure you will tell me how wrong I am.

I don't care to comment further, I have more important things to do with my time.

 

[retiredstillteaching]

I wouldn't put it past the school to have organized the Nazi shite on Sports Day to show how evil farang can be, even among themselves. After all, aren't we all considered stupid farang here in Thaialnd by the locals? Even evil??

[RobRoy]

Thanks Rob Roy. With the amount of post you have written, this is what you like to do in your spare time.

I did not like the Nazi parade I witnessed. I took pictures, asked student questions and then educated them. And I have told many people what happened almost a year ago. But we move on. Like I said, educating on current events and the environmental erosion of our planet seem more important. And now I am sure you will tell me how wrong I am.

I don't care to comment further, I have more important things to do with my time.
 

No, its not about the amount of posts and I do commend you on focusing on current issues, especially the one that Thais, at times, seem to do the ostrich thing with.  Its great that you educated the students and I hope and pray you took some time to educate the staff as well.  Its great to have someone that feels strongly on how to improve the students we educate and thus create a better future for us all. 

Honest response Sam and I appreciate your efforts!

[tofiluk]

It's hard to believe the amount of sympathizers of this thread. You know the one's, "they're only children, and don't know what they're doing." Yes, they do. Many know perfectly well, and are not ashamed to admit it. It's a shame that this school with "educated staff" would allow any of this to happen in the first place. This thread will probably be edited since it contains a link to a Bangkok student's web-page. Anyway, here it is:

http://hi5.com/friend/photos/displayPhotoUser.do?photoId=770681783&ownerId=153497891

This link was sent to me by one of my students asking why another 13-year old student would use "such a evil person" on his web-page. They know perfectly well.

[Mods-Rockers]

It's hard to believe the amount of sympathizers of this thread. You know the one's, "they're only children, and don't know what they're doing." Yes, they do., and are not ashamed to admit it. It's a shame that this school with "educated staff" would allow any of this to happen in the first place. This thread will probably be edited since it contains a link to a Bangkok student's web-page. Anyway, here it is:
 

I love this BS tofiluk! First you state that they all know, then you qualify it with “Many know perfectly well” and then you admit to knowing about two students! Great show of logical thinking there! 30 odd years ago in a history class about the British Raj in India I questioned the teacher about the massacre at Amritsar [sp?] he knew diddly squat!! When I was called to explain what I knew I was banned from his class!
An American colleague of a similar age tells how when he was in school Custer was taught about as a true v\blue American hero! Of course even American historians now see this in a different light.

Both the above are example from our own collective history, the vast majority of Thai kids know diddly about their own history let alone something that happened 60 years ago half a globe away! One or two students do not make a population of students and your gross generalizations show little more that your own inability to think things through!

[wangsuda]

TEFLWatch has certainly put this school into the international news. Here's a few links (with TEFLWatch properly cited):
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=312458&ct=4494183
http://www.israelforum.com/blog_article.php?aid=998354
http://www.who-sucks.com/people/nazi-kids-in-thailand

[bomha]

Thanks, Wangsuda, for the links.  By the way, Wangs, your post count is now.....69.

I notice that two of the reports state that the offending school is "TEFL Thewpaingarm" which must be a pain in the arm to the TEFL teachers at Toopainfularm who have done their best to distance themselves from this tragic travesty.  But that's what shit-fights do, until you do not know "Who Flung the Poo?"  Maybe the TEFLers could put a disclaimer on their CV: "I worked at Thewpaingarm but did not design those disgusting swastikas for the despicable Nazi glory day."

Maybe the school could change its name to........?

[Sadly-confused]

Also my thanks Wang. the fact that the story has appeared gave  me a laugh, ok an ironic laugh when i considered recent events!

A poster on another thread was having a go at the admin because of the publication of a letter;

bomha,
I'm glad you raised this issue.  If it was Nemesis' SOLE decision to publish this letter, I'd say, "with friends like that, who needs enemies."  Ethically, publishing a letter that may get someone else into hot water shows very poor judgment.  I'm crossing my fingers that Nemesis DID at least TRY to contact the teacher in question before publishing the director's letter.  As for his being a "virtual phantom," well, retiredstillteaching is a real teacher in a real country, and he must now deal with the consequences of a phantom's mischief.  Is driving site traffic to TW really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed?  No street smarts, I'd say.

Then it occurred to me where the media had probably obtained the lead to this story;

I'm circulating the pics appearing on this thread among my media contacts.  If they want to pick up the ball and run with it, they can.  I think the teachers who stood idly by while the students prepared Nazi costumes, Nazi banners, Nazi paraphernalia and Nazi dance routines are cowards.  Any excuses offered on the students' behalf (i.e., "it was a fashion statement") or lame duck teachers are cop-outs.

The question that occurs to be is; “Is Zionist zeal really so important that a teacher's career should be sacrificed? No street smarts, I'd say.” (quote paraphrased by me) open mouth change feet!

Oh btw XXX = … nah work it out yourself!

[smilingnow]

I have read this through and have decided (IMHO) that the real question here is what to do about this tragic cultural ignorance.  Yes it was wrong, no it shouldn't be played down and naturally I feel sorry for the teachers and students who played a part in this travesty.  This incident may have happened a while ago but I'm seeing more and more students proudly sporting a swastika.  What can we do about it?

I'm not going to add any more fuel to the fire or even condemn those involved (although my grandfather would probably not agree with me).  What I am going to do, and urge others to do, is educate the ignorant.  Ignorance of this magnitude must not be allowed, lest we repeat the mistakes of the past. 

I have the unfortunate 'privilege' of addressing my entire school every Tuesday morning to make a speech of my own choice.  I shall be using my very next opportunity to make everyone, students AND teachers, realize what the Nazis were.

I intend to highlight, in a way they should all understand, that Nazis were disgusted with Thais ('an inferior race') and would have more than likely executed the reigning monarch for being a 'false' god.  I am going to let them all know how many men, women and children were murdered in cold blood.  I'm going to let them know how close the world came to being under fascist rule and the sacrifices that were made to prevent it.  I'm also going to point out that the Allies forced Japan out of Thailand and liberated them from brutal occupation and that they owe a debt of gratitude to the Allies (I won't go into more detail on this here but will in my speech) and should be demonstrating respect not ignorance.  I will ask them all to take time to understand the world around them and learn that the past is not a time to be forgotten but a time to be remembered.  Being ignorant of the past is the worst way to show respect to those who died helping you.  Hardly a lighthearted topic for morning assembly but we'll see how it goes down.

It's normal for me to ask 3 questions when I've finished my speech, so here are my questions to ensure understanding.  Let me know if you have any better ones please.

1.  Why did the Nazis murder 12,000,000 people in cold blood? (Ans - they were inferior to Germans)

2.  What did the Nazis think of Thai people? (Ans - thought they were an inferior race)

3.  What would have happened to the King if the Nazis had come here? (Ans - killed/imprisoned him)

I intend to use their own beliefs and culture to shame those students who choose to wear the swastika.  It is hard to be a proud Thai when you are wearing a symbol which you know hates you, your family and your King!

Wish me luck.

FF.

[Thai Me Up]

1.  Why did the Nazis murder 12,000,000 people in cold blood? (Ans - they were inferior to Germans)

2.  What did the Nazis think of Thai people? (Ans - thought they were an inferior race)

3.  What would have happened to the King if the Nazis had come here? (Ans - killed/imprisoned him)

I intend to use their own beliefs and culture to shame those students who choose to wear the swastika.  It is hard to be a proud Thai when you are wearing a symbol which you know hates you, your family and your King!

Wish me luck.

FF.

I wish you luck on this important issue.  I believe sadly-confused would also benefit from your intended speech, but he's too busy practicing his goose-stepping with his head up his Aryan ass.

I'm not sure about the answer to your first question.  The Nazis executed Jehovah's Witnesses as well as Jews because the JW's refused to renounce their faith.  Not sure how that works with the "inferior to the Germans" answer.

I'd ask the question, "How long was the Third Reich supposed to last?" - 1,000 years and "How long did it last?" less than 10 years.

The horrors of the Third Reich transcend "Zionist" sensibilities.  To say that the Nazis viewed Thais as "inferior" and would have killed the King is an excellent way to bring the point home.

Would you please post any feedback or responses to your speech?  Many thanks to you in advance for using this timely topic in your Tuesday prepared speech.   

[Sadly-confused]

I wish you luck on this important issue.  I believe sadly-confused would also benefit from your intended speech, but he's too busy practicing his goose-stepping with his head up his Aryan ass.

Why thank you TMU, yesterday you cheered me up, well gave me an ironic laugh anyway and now today you actually gave me a rip roaring belly laugh! You really are so funny! Or is that pathet...

[Thai Me Up]

sadly-confused, why not go to Thewpaingarm and show those Thais you know which way their swastikas should point?

[Sadly-confused]

Why not explain why you believe that the admins actions in making the sarasas letter public, was not not street smart because it put a well known (to sarasas) teacher at risk, but fully believe that your putting yjis schools story and pics on worldwide read blogs does    not do the same when it actually puts possibly two teachers at risk; the one who took the pictures and the one who put them on here.

Ok so you are jewish, no problem with that, but I do have a problem with what appears to be duel standards being operated by yourself!!!!


BTW thanks for yet another belly laugh!

[fed_up]

Ok so you are jewish, no problem with that, but I do have a problem with what appears to be duel standards being operated by yourself!!!!

Dual not "duel". I hope you are not an English teacher...

[Sadly-confused]

Oh dear, yes you are correct, but surely thats not the best you can come up with!

ph well never mind! keep trying!

[smilingnow]

Don't turn this thread into a petty squabble please.

FF.

[CosmicSurfer]

>
I'm not going to add any more fuel to the fire or even condemn those involved (although my grandfather would probably not agree with me).  What I am going to do, and urge others to do, is educate the ignorant.  Ignorance of this magnitude must not be allowed, lest we repeat the mistakes of the past. 

>
I intend to highlight, in a way they should all understand, that Nazis were disgusted with Thais ('an inferior race') and would have more than likely executed the reigning monarch for being a 'false' god. 
3.  What would have happened to the King if the Nazis had come here? (Ans - killed/imprisoned him)
>
>
>
I intend to use their own beliefs and culture to shame those students who choose to wear the swastika.  It is hard to be a proud Thai when you are wearing a symbol which you know hates you, your family and your King!
Wish me luck.
FF.

Smilingnow...

While I fully support your plan to educate Thais to the horrors of the Nazi regime...

I'm VERY concerned that you will need to change your ID from Smilingnow.. To "Cryingnow" ..

Thais take references to THEIR King VERY Seriously... and "Lese Majeste" charges are Filed regularly and Easily by anyone with just the slightest provocation... This is NOT a topic to take lightly.. and neither is the attitude in Thailand to the Nazis...

Just, For your own well-being.. Leave The Royal Family, out of it.

Thais are NOT forgiving.. or Understanding of any analogy you may be trying to make... They will ONLY hear the negative...

Remember.. they are not native speakers.. they Don't comprehend English Irony.. and sure they won't fully understand the point you'll be trying to make..

But they will Hear the reference to the King and the negativity in your tone and some of the words you will be using.

Stay away from this trouble man.. find another example... Such as The Delai Lama, Or George W. Bush .

If you don't follow this advice, I sincerly wish you the best of luck...  You'll need all you can get.
CS

[RobRoy]

SC

There's several other threads to share his opinions about the letter from Sarasas...As Sarasas isn't the school that's mentioned in the topic, why talk about that here?   Please ask him to post his opinions on the Sarasas letter in the appropriate places.  I don't want another thread locked because of off topic posting.
I would suggest we limit the conversation to the school in question.

As I recall, the school in question is Thewpaingarm School in Bangkok, not Sarasas.

[Thai Me Up]

Why not explain why you believe that the admins actions in making the sarasas letter public, was not not street smart because it put a well known (to sarasas) teacher at risk, but fully believe that your putting yjis schools story and pics on worldwide read blogs does.

BTW thanks for yet another belly laugh!

I did not publish the pics on this thread, but I did thank the publisher...that took guts on his part.  I did not put any pics on worldwide read blogs either; that's a mistaken conclusion you've jumped to.

As for the other matter, I haven't seen retiredstillteaching thank TW yet for open-airing the matter between himself and the school in question.  I think if TW ever truly aspired to be a teacher advocacy site - which it isn't, based on the level of censorship exercised on this forum against teachers - then the publication of the director's letter WITHOUT FIRST CONSULTING THE AFFCTED TEACHER was extremely poor judgment.  If you've ever been in a management vs. staff tug-of-war over any issue, you'd understand what I'm saying.  Publicizing the private letter to TW on the other thread was like waving a red flag in front of a bull.  But TW attached a red flag to retiredstillteaching's backside without letting him know before TW shoved him in the bull ring to fend for himself.

[CosmicSurfer]

It's hard to believe the amount of sympathizers of this thread. You know the one's, "they're only children, and don't know what they're doing." Yes, they do. Many know perfectly well, and are not ashamed to admit it. It's a shame that this school with "educated staff" would allow any of this to happen in the first place. This thread will probably be edited since it contains a link to a Bangkok student's web-page. Anyway, here it is:

http://hi5.com/friend/photos/displayPhotoUser.do?photoId=770681783&ownerId=153497891

This link was sent to me by one of my students asking why another 13-year old student would use "such a evil person" on his web-page. They know perfectly well.

So don't sit back.. Report this kid to the Site Operators.. Hi5 is operated out of San Fransisco,  CA.. in the uSA.

They have clear policy in their "Terms of Use". This is the "Abuse Report", quoting their policy that I just sent to there Moderators...

You should do the same.. All of the members here should do it.. Can't change attitudes in Thailand.. But sure can get some action in the States for this problem. Here is the link to the Abuse Report Page.. Click "Send email to hi5" at Bottom of Page"
http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/s-16238773/cmd/kbresource/kb-3682846936204408585/view_question!PAGETYPE?sc=13&sf=101133&documentid=239384&action=view

This is the complaint I filed:

The page refered to has been posted by a 13-yer old boy from Bangkok, The page refered to has been posted by a 13-yer old boy, named Panuwat from Bangkok, Thailand and contains Photos of Swastikas and Adolf Hitler. Thailand and contains Photos of Swastikas and Adolf Hitler.

Under your "Terms of Sevice" copied Below, This a Clear violation against posting Offensive, racist and hateful content.

Please take appropriate action immediately.
Thank you,
(Insert your name here).
---------------
Prohibited Content includes Content that:

              (a) is patently offensive to the online community, such as Content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual;

A Small step for Mankind...
CS

[RobRoy]

As for the other matter, I haven't seen retiredstillteaching thank TW yet for open-airing the matter between himself and the school in question.  I think if TW ever truly aspired to be a teacher advocacy site - which it isn't, based on the level of censorship exercised on this forum against teachers - then the publication of the director's letter WITHOUT FIRST CONSULTING THE AFFCTED TEACHER was extremely poor judgment.  If you've ever been in a management vs. staff tug-of-war over any issue, you'd understand what I'm saying.  Publicizing the private letter to TW on the other thread was like waving a red flag in front of a bull.  But TW attached a red flag to retiredstillteaching's backside without letting him know before TW shoved him in the bull ring to fend for himself.

TMU there are several threads going in other sections of the forum that addresses these issues.  Please post there. Express your opinions on the administration of the forum in the proper place.  Go forth and post!

As to the rest of the quoted topic, I want to comment on that as well...did the admins contact Namtok?  Should the letter have been kept quiet?  Do I or you know what TW did to help poor ole Namtok?   Post these questions on the appropriate thread and leave this thread to continue the discussion of the topic school.

Keep it on topic.  You'll get more discussion in the proper place than posting on the wrong thread. 

[smilingnow]

Cosmic surfer:

Thanks for the warning.  You're right that they could jump to the wrong conclusion and hear it negatively.  When I deliver my speech, it will have to be 'dumbed down' English (as usual).  I will be careful to use phrases such as... 'the bad Nazis wanted to hurt the wonderful King, can you imagine that?? after all he has done to help his people those evil Nazis would have wanted to hurt him!' and... 'evil Nazis did not like the kind Thai people'.  Maybe I will finish the speech with 'how tolerant the Thai people are and how intolerant the Nazis were so let's keep Thailand the peace loving nation that it has always been and continue to be a kind people'.  Sucking up?  maybe, but I've been here long enough to know you have to sugar the medicine liberally.  (I think question number 3 will have to be dropped though.) 

As long as they understand that Nazis were bad news, even for them, then my task will be achieved.  Who knows maybe the kids will stop wearing the swastikas for a few hours.

Incidentally, I have an excellent relationship with the school and staff and they all expect me to speak well about Thailand as they know I love the country (mostly).  They won't be listening for any evil farang teacher agenda so as long as I'm not foolish with my choice of wording I should be OK.

Thanks again for the warning though.  If anyone thinks I'm being naive idealist fool, stop me now before it's too late!

FF. (a poor mans Lenin)

[smilingnow]

One more thing.

Check this link and click on 'Louise and the Nazis'.  Very interesting documentary for those who think Nazism is a thing of the past.

http://tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/1376

FF. 

[Sadly-confused]

There is a great deal of truth in what you say, RR. However the underlying ethic of this site is teacher friendliness, sadly, TMU’s actions in placing the story out into different media may well have put teachers at risk. That has been the underlying trust of my posts on this thread over the last few days.

[Thai Me Up]

Cosmic surfer:

You're right that they could jump to the wrong conclusion and hear it negatively.  When I deliver my speech, it will have to be 'dumbed down' English (as usual).  I will be careful to use phrases such as... 'the bad Nazis wanted to hurt the wonderful King, can you imagine that?? after all he has done to help his people those evil Nazis would have wanted to hurt him!' and... 'evil Nazis did not like the kind Thai people'. 

As long as they understand that Nazis were bad news, even for them, then my task will be achieved.  Who knows maybe the kids will stop wearing the swastikas for a few hours.

...

If anyone thinks I'm being naive idealist fool, stop me now before it's too late!

FF. (a poor mans Lenin)

smilingnow, I think you are a rational person who understands the risk that if your audience hears you selectively, the bits and pieces may combine to reflect poorly on you.  However, having said that, I believe you also work at a special school and have a special relationship with that school.  I find it both unusual and remarkable that you are expected to deliver a weekly speech in English.  Since you (and I and several others on this forum) feel strongly about this issue, it is completely appropriate for you to address Nazism in the context of the recent Thewpaingarm school rally, unacceptable fashion, and misplaced hero worship.  By taking these risks rather than hiding in the shadows of "what's the use?, This Is Thailand, why make a fuss?", you will truly be fulfilling your role as educator, not just a token white face on the staff.

Share your planned speech with trusted colleagues and let them voice any concerns about references to the King BEFORE you make the speech, okay?

 

[Sadly-confused]

I did not publish the pics on this thread, but I did thank the publisher...that took guts on his part.  I did not put any pics on worldwide read blogs either; that's a mistaken conclusion you've jumped to.

An entirely justified conclusion given your statement in post #56:

I'm circulating the pics appearing on this thread among my media contacts.  If they want to pick up the ball and run with it, they can.  I think the teachers who stood idly by while the students prepared Nazi costumes, Nazi banners, Nazi paraphernalia and Nazi dance routines are cowards.  Any excuses offered on the students' behalf (i.e., "it was a fashion statement") or lame duck teachers are cop-outs.

Looks like they did pick up the ball, looks like they contacted the school, I can only wonder how many farang teachers will get blamed for this fiasco, maybe time will tell!

[Thai Me Up]

So don't sit back.. Report this kid to the Site Operators.. Hi5 is operated out of San Fransisco,  CA.. in the uSA.

They have clear policy in their "Terms of Use". This is the "Abuse Report", quoting their policy that I just sent to there Moderators...

You should do the same.. All of the members here should do it.. Can't change attitudes in Thailand.. But sure can get some action in the States for this problem. Here is the link to the Abuse Report Page.. Click "Send email to hi5" at Bottom of Page"
http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/s-16238773/cmd/kbresource/kb-3682846936204408585/view_question!PAGETYPE?sc=13&sf=101133&documentid=239384&action=view

This is the complaint I filed:

The page refered to has been posted by a 13-yer old boy from Bangkok, The page refered to has been posted by a 13-yer old boy, named Panuwat from Bangkok, Thailand and contains Photos of Swastikas and Adolf Hitler. Thailand and contains Photos of Swastikas and Adolf Hitler.

Under your "Terms of Sevice" copied Below, This a Clear violation against posting Offensive, racist and hateful content.

Please take appropriate action immediately.
Thank you,
(Insert your name here).
---------------
Prohibited Content includes Content that:

              (a) is patently offensive to the online community, such as Content that promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual;

A Small step for Mankind...
CS

CS - thanks for running down the Terms of Use for hi5.  I just filed a similar complaint.   

[hero]

Just to inform that I have (temporarily) moved thepictures that were previously featured on this thread at the request of the poster who shared them.  He has become worried, in the light of the publicity, that he may be in hot water at work - I'm sure none of us wish that.

It does sound like he has a plan to tell the full story in due time, but right now the pics are off the thread.  If anybody wants the pics - please send me a nice PM and I'll perhaps forward them if appropriate.

Thanks for understanding!