Topic: Agencies... what to look out for

[Bruce]

In the last several weeks I have been fored to become somewhat of an expert on laws regarding agencies so, in the hopes that this might benefit someone, I thought I would post what I have recently come to know.

There are really two types of agencies; agencies that employ you directly and agencies that just farm you out to schools.  Both can be successful under the right circumstances.  Just be aware of some basic facts:

1.  The organization that hires you is the one that sponsors your Work Permit.  If you think you work for the agency but your WP is issued buy the school, you are wrong.

2.  If the school issues your WP, THEY are responsible for paying you and the agency should not accept money on your behalf.  The school should pay you directly.  If th agency does not pay you, you and the school will be forced to take them to CIVIL (not Labor) court.  Messy and long.  The agency could just run off with the money and they do not owe you anything nor do they need to comply with any labor laws--they are NOT your employer! 

In fact, it is actually ILLEGAL for the agency to accept your pay.  If they do, inform the school of the danger and potential liability to them and you!

If your agency does plan to employ you directly remember a few facts to help you spot trouble:

Thai companies cannot sponsor non-Thais easilly.  They must have registered capital of at least 2 million baht and 7 Thai employees for every non-thai.  if you do not see LOADS of Thais then they probably cannot really sponsor you.  begin to ask questions.

Thai schools can sponsor teachers easily however they can only have one teacher for every classroom at their school.  if their school has 5 classrooms they can sponsor 5 teachers.

There are some good agencies out there but there are some really bad ones too.  But the biggest thing to rememer is that the organization that sponsored your WP is yor employer, and that might not be the agency.

[Thai Me Up]

Bruce,
Thanks for that.  I was told about the 2 million baht capital reserve requirement and 7-to-1 thai-to-farang ratio by an honest agency I had worked for when I asked if they could provide me a letter of intent for a non-immigrant B visa.  Sad, because this rule will ring the death knell for small agencies as far as "legal" employers.

To continue your list of what to look out for...

ajarn.com job listings promising big salaries with grandiose-sounding agency or foundation names but vaguely-worded job descriptions.  When I've emailed enquiries to these agencies asking for physical address information or even a URL describing the agency, I receive evasive answers:  "our web site isn't ready yet" or "we're in Pattaya area."  DON'T mail scans of your diploma, passport or police clearance to these scammers.

[Bruce]

Thnx for the additions, Thai me up.  I have heard of agencies holding diplomas for randsom.

One more thing--if you are working ILLEGALLY (no work permit) you have no recourse with Labor.  You are an illegal worker.

[Mods-Rockers]

Thnx for the additions, Thai me up.  I have heard of agencies holding diplomas for randsom.

One more thing--if you are working ILLEGALLY (no work permit) you have no recourse with Labor.  You are an illegal worker.

Not quite true Bruce, whilst I agree you are an illegal worker, there have been cases recently where the MOL have sided with the illegal worker to go after the illegal employer who is, after all the more flagrant breaker of the Law!

Those working for employers who do not obtain WP's for them should go to the MOL themselves and report it! That way they cover their own asses and drop the illegal employer in the doodoo! OK that may mean losing that job, but that is far better than losing your freedom, and may well go a long way towards improving everyone working conditions.

BTW Bruce would you care to comment on how many foriegners your company employs and ALSO how many Thai!

[anyonefortennis]

.............remember a few facts to help you spot trouble:

If anybody wants to read up on what to look out for in a bad agency, take a trip to the HOS and check out our old friends at AmeriThai.

[Andy]

I think Amerithai's changed its name?

[hero]

Good info Bruce.  My first job was with an infamous three letter agency (ELT),  They don't provide WPs for employees, because they can't as they have no assets to speak of and only a handful of Thai staff that they actually employ.

They do offer every teacher a WP at interview, but they will only provide them for a select few who work in one of the government schools that they farm teachers out to.  Yet, contrary to the way Bruce tells us it should work, the school pays the agency, who pay the teachers (anything up to 3 weeks in arrears).  Make no mistake, with ELT you are employed by the agency as they hold the (WORTHLESS in effect) contract and they routinely subject teachers to working weekends and evening to make up 100 contact hours.  They even have the nerve to limit the number of contact hours each teacher does in the regular school week to ensure they have plenty of staff with hours to make up that they can send to their backwater cowboy English language schools (EnglishPlus) and even cajole teachers into teaching their ridiculous cowboy TEFL school.

Now, this thread is about agencies in general - but ELT are a lesson in what you should not accept.  As Bruce points out, should anything go wrong (illegal firing to save holiday pay, transferring from school to school miles apart at next to no notice, reneging on overtime or bonus payments - and ELT routinely do all of these!) then you will not have a leg to stand on.  If you are one of the lucky few that have a WP, good luck with single-handedly trying to get a government school to accept liability (not impossible, but most of them have connections they can pull to some extent - often more so than private schools and they are government institutions ultimately!) and if you don't have a WP then ELT have even threatened teachers with "shopping" them to the Immigration department!

There are great agencies in Bangkok, I have worked with teachers who are "properly" farmed out to schools by agencies - whereby the school pays a fee to the agency and the school basically employs the teacher.  To some extent this is even a better situation than working directly for a school as the benefits should be equivalent and if things don't work out then the agency can always help you to relocate to another school. 

From my experience, teachers working for agencies should expect nothing less than equivalence with teachers employed by schools - WPs, holiday pay, 12-month contracts, sick pay etc.  Unfortunately the reality of most agencies I have encountered is nowhere near this level!

[Thighlander]

I would look out for people who state their degree(s), but fail to mention the institution where they were obtained.

I would make some of these lowlife scum pay me in advance; after my paperwork was completed at their expense.

[Thai Me Up]

hero,
Since you've named a lousy agency, could you also list some "great agencies?"

[Bruce]

Here in Thailand TEFL International is hosted by a Thai school.  We have about 5 Western emloyees and 20 Thais.

[Mods-Rockers]

Here in Thailand TEFL International is hosted by a Thai school.  We have about 5 Western emloyees and 20 Thais.

Well 20 thai employees would entitle you to employ just 2 farang legally. So what is the status of the ABOUT 3 others?

[Thai Me Up]

Mods-Rockers,
Your math is a little off.  20 thai employees = 2-6/7ths farang

I believe Thais view filipinos and other people of color as fractional human beings.  I'm thinking that 6/7ths would mean 2 Filipino hires or 3 Indians.   

[Mods-Rockers]

Now that is not nice, and may give some people completely the wrong idea about you!

Actually I was thinking about this and 20/7 = 2.857, so what constiture 0.857 of a teacher? Could the 'one armed man' from the Fugative be legally employed as 0.857 of a human? or would he need to have a kidney removed as well? maybe a testicle, it does bring some interesting visuals to the imagination if thinking about a tefl course with Bruce.

Also if only two of the employees are technically legal, and you have the misfortues to study for your TEFL cert there under one or more of the illegals, does that then mean that technically your TEFL cert will also be void as you studied on an illegal course?

[Geekboy]

I think there are different rules for companies and schools when it comes to balance. Agencies are companies, TEFL International is partnered with a Thai school.

I worked for an agency that registered itself as a legitimate school. Once it was legitimate, with their two thai employees, they had 6 farang teachers on work permits, all legal.

[Thai Me Up]

Mods-Rockers,
Well, if you TEFL train under an illegal, then you're a "bastard teacher."  That's the technical term I believe.   

As far as amputations and what constitutes a whole human being, if we can count each arm, leg and testicle individually, then we have sixths.  I propose that we count the head as an appendage which would give us 7/7ths.  Therefore, a company could employ Hitler as a TEFL instructor if they needed 6/7ths farang, but the "sieg heil" thing could be a problem if he couldn't learn to wai properly.

[Bruce]

Thai 15/2 schools (non-traditional education schools including English schools) are only limited by the number of classrooms.  I guess you did not read my first post well...

[anyonefortennis]

What's the standing of the people who sign up for the TEFL International Thai Special Project? Are they employed by TEFL International...............or do you "Farm them out"?

On the TI project website page it states;

Work Permit

Schools will pay for the processing fees in obtaining the Work Permit for teachers signing a longer contract. Teachers are responsible for the costs of, supplying with, any and required copies of educational documents, passport pages, health certificate, and pictures. The application for Work Permits cannot be made until a Non-Immigrant B Visa is secured. Applications will begin roughly 2 weeks after teaching begins.

*In the case of changing school; if the teacher already received the work permit but prefer to change to new school (differences province), the cost of obtain the work permit for the new school will be in the teacher’s responsibility.*

(I note with interest that TI staff having cracking English skills!)

So am I right in thinking they are not employed by TEFL Int? So it is possible maybe that TI just accepts a nice big lump sum for each teacher that they “farm out”, yes? I wonder how much…..if the school pay the teacher 30k per month I think they have probably got a budget for AT LEAST 40K so therefore could in affect funnel 120k a year to TI………..for doing what exactly? And then TI can claim to give each project participant a ‘free TEFL’ course…………nice.

And all the while the average wage for teachers in the provinces outside BKK stays at 30k a month……….gee, thanks TI!

Other statements on the page that I don’t quite agree with;

* Such as stating that 30k is “more than enough to live comfortably” (in BKK? Not on your nelly!) by comparing the 30k that the teachers will be paid with the average 10k that the Thai teachers get…….with no mention that the Thai teacher more than likely lives in a house that has a combined income over or above 30k, doesn’t pay rent, has a stomach that is accustomed to eating a 20baht meal twice a day everyday or has someone cooking at home etc. etc.
* Vaccinations & Immunization requirements: No Vaccinations & Immunization are required for Thailand. However, you can purchase Malaria Pills. - If you are coming from the UK there certainly are V&I requirements, and given you have schools in the far north I would imagine for those teachers malaria pills are a must.

So what is so special about this "special project"? I think the 90k per participant, if indeed TI receive anything for placing the trainees. Given that there will be at least 30 participants, on the above figures we could be looking at close to 3 million baht for placing teachers........now that is special!

[hero]

hero,
Since you've named a lousy agency, could you also list some "great agencies?"

I haven't experienced any personally to be honest.  I have met at least two very nice, likeable, believable teachers that said their agencies were very good though - it was the same agency though!  I would be afraid to name it in case I make a mistake and name the wrong one! 

I also knew folks at a school of a friend of mine that had been recruited from abroad by an agency of some description and were working in a private bilingual (not international) school on a far better package than those employed directly by the school - although they were education graduates, whereas those at the school previously were not.  They were effectively school employees, but overseen at work by an agency representative (teacher) and well supported by the agency in any grievances (which were few and far between in any case).

[Thai Me Up]

hero,
Would you care to PM me the name of the agency of "some description" that did right by your friends at the private bilingual school?

[hero]

I don't know what it was called mate to be honest, I will ask as and when I see one of those concerned.  They were recruited straight out of uni in Australia.

[Bruce]

What's the standing of the people who sign up for the TEFL International Thai Special Project? Are they employed by TEFL International...............or do you "Farm them out"?

On the TI project website page it states;

Work Permit

Schools will pay for the processing fees in obtaining the Work Permit for teachers signing a longer contract. Teachers are responsible for the costs of, supplying with, any and required copies of educational documents, passport pages, health certificate, and pictures. The application for Work Permits cannot be made until a Non-Immigrant B Visa is secured. Applications will begin roughly 2 weeks after teaching begins.

*In the case of changing school; if the teacher already received the work permit but prefer to change to new school (differences province), the cost of obtain the work permit for the new school will be in the teacher’s responsibility.*

(I note with interest that TI staff having cracking English skills!)

So am I right in thinking they are not employed by TEFL Int? So it is possible maybe that TI just accepts a nice big lump sum for each teacher that they “farm out”, yes? I wonder how much…..if the school pay the teacher 30k per month I think they have probably got a budget for AT LEAST 40K so therefore could in affect funnel 120k a year to TI………..for doing what exactly? And then TI can claim to give each project participant a ‘free TEFL’ course…………nice.

And all the while the average wage for teachers in the provinces outside BKK stays at 30k a month……….gee, thanks TI!

Other statements on the page that I don’t quite agree with;

* Such as stating that 30k is “more than enough to live comfortably” (in BKK? Not on your nelly!) by comparing the 30k that the teachers will be paid with the average 10k that the Thai teachers get…….with no mention that the Thai teacher more than likely lives in a house that has a combined income over or above 30k, doesn’t pay rent, has a stomach that is accustomed to eating a 20baht meal twice a day everyday or has someone cooking at home etc. etc.
* Vaccinations & Immunization requirements: No Vaccinations & Immunization are required for Thailand. However, you can purchase Malaria Pills. - If you are coming from the UK there certainly are V&I requirements, and given you have schools in the far north I would imagine for those teachers malaria pills are a must.

So what is so special about this "special project"? I think the 90k per participant, if indeed TI receive anything for placing the trainees. Given that there will be at least 30 participants, on the above figures we could be looking at close to 3 million baht for placing teachers........now that is special!

Actually we employ NONE of them.  We work with a well-estabilshed recruiting agency.  They actually have their own curriculum and run special English programs at schools.  In the end, the schools employ them directly.  They pay is to recruit and train these teachers.  The teachers get a guaranteed four-month job (they can extend and get an immediate raise in pay), free housing and a certificate.  Where did you come up with 90k?  I WISH.  Nothing even close to that.  Not even in the ball park. 

Of the 40 we placed last term all 40 remained for the whole term and most were very happy with the program.  Of the current group, they seem happy, too.

Obviously we do get paid for our recruiting and training, but isn't it better to get a cert out of the deal as compared to others who just get a job?  And, by the way, are you purely a volunteer or something?

BTW, the guy who wrote some of that is Indian and does make occasional errors in his English.

[Nemesis]

Ok, there's another thread for TEFL International Gripes in the Sour Gripes room. Please keep this focused on agencies in general. There's a lot of valuable nuggets in this thread and doesn't need to be diluted with arguments about TEFL International.

[Thai Me Up]

BOGUS agencies and BOGUS job postings on ajarn.com

I've contacted several "agencies" that appear by initials or by grandiose-sounding corporate names, and they turn out to be one or two individuals "representing" schools.  Therefore, they cannot provide me documentation for my non-immigrant B or a work permit.  I'd ending up working for the school directly, but with the "agency" taking a cut of my salary every month.  And for what?  If they want to charge a flat fee for a job lead, fine, if someone will do that, then that's a finder's fee.  But to call themselves "agencies" when the teacher is not, in fact, employed by them is a dubious relationship with teachers they "hire."

[Geekboy]

Avoid agencies. They are just another layer of BS and another layer of morons whether managed by farangs or Thais. They take a cut of your salary plus give you extra grievance.

[Thai Me Up]

Some agencies really have their hooks sunk into their government school contracts.  I walked in off the street to a large government mattayom (nameless) on Soi Rangnam to apply for a job.  The English head informed me that they only did their hiring through such-and-such agency and suggested I sign up with that agency.  I declined and said that I had 11 years' English teaching experience and a BA English and didn't need an agency.  Well, a few minutes after I left that school, my mobile rang and it was the head of the agency!  She started ranting and told me not to solicit her client directly, and I told her I'd apply to any school I pleased.  I felt sorry for the teachers there earning 30-35K/month while the agency kept 10-15K/month for 10 months to "administer" their contracts.

[freedom fighter]

Agencies should be avoided.  I used to help run an agency back in the UK so I know what I'm talking about (in a previous life best forgotten).  You don't need to go through an Agengy, so why would you? 

They don't offer you any extra security (quite the opposite), they complicate matters and they take a cut of your salary for doing next to nothing.  All too often these agencies are run by unprofessional opportunists who operate illegally.  Then there are the agencies who refuse to pay you (naming no names but you know who you are) for fictitious reasons.  Even the 'good' agencies with the best intentions cause problems.  Avoid them like the plague!  Search out your own jobs - there are many out there.

I feel I should add that I find it amusing that someone with a recent bad track record would choose to highlight the bad agencies.  Perhaps this is a way to deflect attention and win favour?

FF.

[hero]

All too often these agencies are run by unprofessional opportunists who operate illegally.

Hit th enail on the head there sure enough!

[Thighlander]

Then there are the agencies who refuse to pay you (naming no names but you know who you are) for fictitious reasons.  Even the 'good' agencies with the best intentions cause problems.  Avoid them like the plague!  Search out your own jobs - there are many out there.

I feel I should add that I find it amusing that someone with a recent bad track record would choose to highlight the bad agencies.  Perhaps this is a way to deflect attention and win favour?

FF.

   You got that right FF!