Topic: Border Runs - Onward Tickets Needed

[maichai]

Anyone affected by this?  I know several teachers who will be seriously impacted.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=114167

[bomha]

I think maybe it is only for Poipet (Aranyaphet).  Andy can tell you what aranya means in Spanish.

Are there many teachers in central Thailand still doing 30 day runs to get a stamp for 30 days, that is not a visa?  Are there still many teachers without work permit or long term visas?  What a perdicament.

Also; is Penang and Hull the only consulates really requiring a background criminal check to issue B visas for teachers?

A big mess.

[fortuneguy]

This is probably a true story, although as somebody has pointed out it did neatly coincide with April Fools day.

Judging by comments on Thaivisa.com it is an old rule that is now being enacted. It seems that people are being allowed back in one more time however. The solution is simple of course: just buy a return bus ticket from wherever you are, eg, if you happen to be in Poipet, buy a return coach ticket Poipet - Bangkok -Bangkok - Poipet. I understand there are already people offering something like this at the border, cheaply too.

I assume that the same would apply to Penang, although assumption is a dangerous thing where Thai bureaucracy and Thai thinking is concerned, and you could just as easily pass through as normal.

Wow ! this illegal Thai Government sure knows how to make enemies real fast.

[bomha]

I asked my mate, the old Yank, about the visa situation last night.  He was already 4 Heinekens pissed - and he started singing some song by the Allmen Brothers - something about, "sometimes I feel like I'm just tied to the whipping post."  then he mumbled "if it isn't one thing, it's another.  It's visas or teaching license, it's passports or work permit, it's a Thai culture test for fkuk sake!  Thai culture, for fkuk sake!!"  Then he had Heineken #5.

The Irish guy and I figured out that if the officer at the border can not get you one way, then he will get you another way.

[fortuneguy]

And I think he is probably right Bomha. I'm doing a run to Ban Laem on Tuesday and I must admit I'm bricking it. Thus, I'm making contingency plans. I'm currently on a Tourist Visa and until a few days ago thought that I could go back to VOA. If I am refused the VOA then I suppose it's off to Phnom Phen for another tourist visa.

Now, I'm assuming I can do a back to back tourist visa. Can anybody comment?

Failing that it's back to UK for a break and a non-imm O.

Ultimately, I suppose Imm. Dept has the ability to refuse entry on any grounds they like, and that is what they are seeking to do; which is worrying. Part of this has to do with the Dad's Army that are currently running the country.  Without firm orders from above over zealous officials have become drunk with power.

One way and another I bring a million or so baht in to this country every year.  That's not peanuts. For the privilege I feel about as welcome as the proverbial bad smell in a lift (elevator to Yanks).

Quite why this is happening is a mystery. The only consolation is that the economy is beginning to suffer badly.  Foreign investment is dwindling, as is the numbers of much needed migrant workers who presumably are being made to feel unwelcome as the rest of us. Domestic demand is flat.

Seems to me the Thais have become over nationalistic and this trait became apparent last year no doubt prompted by the anniversary celebrations. Also faced with the growing decadence of it's young  they are blaming the poor old farang. Up in Chiang Mai  there is a terrible smog problem caused by the usual Thai reckless disregard for the environment.  To counteract this, the local authorities banned Korean restaurants from having barbecues. So again, it was the poor old foreigner causing the ills.


Would appreciate swift answers over whether it's ok to get back to back tourist visa.

[fortuneguy]

Judging by recent reports of trouble free visa runs I'd say this has been an isolated outbreak, and I am led to think that palms were not being greased.

[bomha]

I think that you are right, fortuneguy, about the odours in the lift.  

I think that what the immi police want are real visas that you pay real money to purchase.  In Kampuchea, real money is rials, or reales.  Really.  So, in every case, it appears that an actual visa is better than no visa at all.

I think that this statement is true, about those free stamps that are not visas: you said, Ultimately, I suppose Imm. Dept has the ability to refuse entry on any grounds they like, and that is what they are seeking to do.  But I think they like those documents that bring money to Thailand, like visas.

As it says in that long discussion at ThaiVisa, from the opening post here, maybe this crackdown is on people who keep living indefinitely in Thailand, year after year.  Those officers at the border can figure out that a person, still claiming to just be a mere tourist, without so much as a visa, is not a tourist. 

[Andy]

and those goons can refuse ya entrance even if ya got a proper visa. They're like gods.

[fortuneguy]

I'm off to Ban Laem tomorrow. Guess we'll soon know. I'm packing a small bag just in case.  Having checked the various sites out, it seems that an onward flight is needed not just an onward travel ticket. Thus, Plan B is to ebook a flight ticket Bangkok to Penang for instance, and return with a tourist visa and said  flight ticket. I'm told by Phil who runs Thaivisarun that there is no need to worry so I'm hoping this is a storm in a Thai tea cup.  Personally, I don't feel easy at all but I'm not an optimist anyway.

Typical Thais shooting themselves in the foot as this must have a severe impact on tourism.  Basically it consigns people to the 30 day arrival visa without further stay.  No more booking up and seeing how it goes.  Moreover it renders extensions more or less obsolete, as to get one you'd  have to tear up your existing ticket and probably book another. All that lost revenue! It was a  license to print money.  As for land travel, well, what foreigner is going to do it?  So more money out the Thai coffers.

Moreover, the 5 star tourists don't really bring anything much to the country because as little as 5% ends up in the hands of Thai people. The people they are seeking to exclude however spend directly, be it on a girlfriend, a floozy, or a drink habit.

I think I'm in for a tough time in the next few months. I know the solution is to amend my company and get a non-imm B off the back of that.  Costly and kind of ties me to Thailand and I'm not sure I want that anymore.  After if the stakes are higher do I really want to be somewhere that is polluted, anti-foreigner, corrupt, run by a Junta, and increasingly expensive.

My only consolation is that as always there will be a cock up. Already tourism is falling as are all the other indicators  of future performance.

[Thai Me Up]

fortuneguy,
I'm going to be following your visa story closely.  I am in the US now and more than a little concerned about getting on a plane for LOS with only a tourist visa, with the intention of being hired (in an alleged teacher's market) and converting the tourist to a non-immigrant B.  But what really concerns me are your perceptions of Thailand's "future performance."  They are my perceptions as well.  The stagnating Thai economy, civil war, terrorist bomb group(s), failing junta and emboldened Tai Rak party, and nationalization of foreign businesses may spell trouble for us white-skinned guest workers.

[fortuneguy]

I returned from my visa run (see previous posting) without any hassle. I used a quite well known visa run company leaving at 9.30am; perhaps somebody can advise whether it's ok to publish the name as I think everybody should be made aware of the high standard of service they provide and their reputation did seem to be a key factor in the smooth processing.

I asked whether there would be any problems obtaining the VOA prior to departure, the owner said not this time but could not advise about next time.  At the border, I can confirm there are 2 A4 signs printed off a desktop computer which state that onward travel tickets are required. As I remember it also stated proof of reservation as also being acceptable. IT MADE NO MENTION OF AIR TICKETS AND I CAN STATE THAT CATEGORICALLY. As we know, processing can be an anxious time where much is forgotten but I was very sure to remember this point since it is rather a key issue. My passport was inspected thoroughly and I was the only one of about 25 people to undergo a separate check from what I assume was a supervisor. He seemed more concerned with validating I was ok. than actually finding a way to prevent my re-entry. My Thai is not that good, but after the 3rd time of asking I think he got the gist of my question concerning whether air tickets were mandatory for further stamps.  He simply replied he didn't know, and I believe him.  Everybody gained re-entry.

[fortuneguy]

Thai me Up. Thanks for your interest in my views. I find this a very informative site with some very erudite posters, and so it is a genuine thrill for one of my postings to generate enthusiasm.

Regarding your (our) visa dilemma, personally I feel that this rule about onward travel will be enforced, but mainly on 'serial' VOA applicants. I wouldn't assume you will have a problem. I did a bit of research and found tickets for as little as 1900 bt inclusive, Bangkok to Penang - see Airasia.  So there is an easy solution if in doubt.

I understand anyway that it is possible to obtain a non-imm B visa for general business purposes from the Thai consulate in Hull, England, and assume the same applies for one or more consulates in the US. I believe New Orleans is the most likely, but am not sure.  Of course this puts the cost on your shoulders as opposed to the hiring school.

Regarding the general situation in Thailand.  I don't think it's just me that has perceived a marked change in our hosts.   Further, one only has to read the Bangkok Post on a daily basis to witness the growing number of poor economic indicators. Only last night, another terrorist bomb was suspected too.  I don't think one can compare any of the problems thus far in terms of what these events mean in the west, but there is definite cause for concern.  A month or so ago I said I was 60/40 against people coming to Thailand to teach, and that is now tending towards 70/30.

At the risk of undermining my own argument though, I met a number of teachers today who remain highly enthusiastic and are quite happy with their lot, and I am feeling a bit dulled at the moment. Perhaps others would like to add their own thoughts as I would not want to dissuade you just because I'm feeling pessimistic.

[Thai Me Up]

Your posts are informative and I enjoy reading them.  If I return to Thailand or choose not to, that's up to me and your posts will not dissuade me from setting my own course.  Two years ago I ventured off to a country that made it easy for me to import my marketable skills.  Today, that country is circling the wagons, nationalizing and limiting foreign businesses and ejecting retirees who "used loopholes" to buy their dream homes in Thailand.  Salaries for English teachers are dropping while credentials and work requirements are increasing - not a good combination.  If I or other teachers must work 60 hours a week to make ends meet, why not just stay in home and do the grind there?

Now, foreign investors/retirees who buy condos will only be able to stay 90 days in, then go out for 90.  Will foreign condo owners dump their condos?  fortuneguy, what will happen when the deadline approaches for retiree homeowners who bought property by setting up shell companies to transfer 51% of their shell company's interest to a Thai national?  This may be OT but I'm curious as to your take on this.

[Nemesis]

By all means post the name of the visa run company you used. This is about helping others, I got no problem with plugging a business that helps teachers.

[fortuneguy]

The company is Thaivisarun.  Website - www.ThaiVisaRun.com

This really is an excellent company judging by it's border run service. The staff are on the ball, and you are looked after including food and drink. The 9.30 start is very civilised for a slouch like me.  The coach is clean and safe, and there's good entertainment: yesterday I watched 'The Departed' which I suppose was quite an apt title for a border run).  At the border they do the running for you and appear to be held in high regard. I have used them twice,  and my friend has 4 or 5 times. Cost 2000 bt all in.

The owner is very knowledgable about visas and will be able to help on the acquisition of them including the prized non- imm B.

Thai Me up. I think there is a great deal of posturing at the moment and this has created an atmosphere of uncertainty.  My own lawyer is extremely experienced and highly respected, and believes everything will blow over.  He believes that the Foreign Business Act won't get passed in it's present form, or at all.

I have a Thai registered company that owns a house in Bangkok. Guess what? I happen to be the MD.  Even if proposed changes go ahead then I still call the shots, and there are all sorts of diversions and distractions that can keep it that way.  Needless to say, people with condos need have no worries.

I think the latest visa rule changes are really about ridding Pattaya of people who are viewed to be undesirable.  That it affects a few unofficial teachers is no doubt a bonus. Further there is something about a military junta that just seeks to impose fear on anyone, and create uncertainty wherever possible- I suppose it's a way of keeping control. Nevertheless, somebody can stay in the country fairly easily, even now.

I'd say Thailand was seduced by the western way a long time ago and there's no way they want to go back.  The Farang (and his money) are now essential to their lives.  What we are seeing is just a backlash to the progress that has been made, and actually it's probably quite tame in comparison to the past.

[Thai Me Up]

fortuneguy,
I like your optimism.  Since you have a company that owns property in Thailand, you have your ear closer to the ground than I do on what all these new visa regs really mean.  But trying to close the property ownership loophole to rid Pattaya of the Russian "mafia" is like trying to get rid of genital herpes with tiger balm and a prayer.  I grew up around Brighton Beach (that's Brooklyn, not Jolly Ol') and I know how tenacious certain "undesirables" can be.

I"m looking into China now.  I'm a professional English teacher (BA English, started teaching in 1978).  I've heard that some Chinese schools pay a salary and include airfare and an accommodation, and I like the idea of being recruited.  You suggest that Thailand is experiencing a backlash against progress now.  I can understand that, but I don't have to accept it.  Employment is a two-way street - it has to be.  I think that the drop in salaries and increase in B.Ed plus CELTA plus more visa regs show that Thais don't really care if native speakers work in Thailand or not.  Thai teachers know English better than we do, so they'll teach English if enough farang don't magically appear when school begins.

[fortuneguy]

I certainly know 1 teacher who is enjoying himself in China. Quite apart from the things you have mentioned, he also cites that it is easier to make genuine friendships - I imagine most people know where I'm coming from.  I've also heard Vietnam is a good gig, although that really is hearsay as I don't know the first thing about the place.

I agree with TMU about Thailand being a bad place to start your teaching career. I had a good grounding in the UK and had to do it the way I'd been taught. It improved my grammar no end. A couple of years out here and all that's out the window, along with the CELTA theory.  I think I've only done 3 or 4 truly challenging lessons. Don't get me wrong it's nice to be a thought of as a celeb. and I really hammed it up, but as a teacher I need to feel 'authentic'.

[Thai Me Up]

fortuneguy,
I understand the celebrity comment.  But you are spot on when you question Thailand as an "authentic" teaching experience.  Given the ridiculous standard that meeting 50 students once a week for 45 minutes constitutes language instruction, I'd say sometimes I felt like I was part of a charade at my first govt school.  Not so when I taught in an English Program at my second school.  But I felt great teaching at both places.

Since you mentioned Vietnam, I'd like to comment.  I spent a week in Saigon assessing the city as a place to live and work.  I'd NEVER go there again.  Apart from being offered a salary that excluded my 10 years' English teaching experience in the US, the city is completely unlivable for me.  Western food is unbelievably expensive and the main form of entertainment in Saigon is driving around the city on a motorbike honking one's horn.  Panhandlers are relentless and overly aggressive.  At night, I was followed on the SIDEWALK by ugly prositutes riding motorbikes who offered me "massage."  Ignoring them and/or saying no did not stop them from continuing their obnoxious sales pitch.  The language school where I interviewed couldn't be bothered to assist me in finding housing or even introducing me to other teachers they employed, even though I had SPECIFICALLY made a special trip to Vietnam to interview there.  To summarize Saigon, in the words of the immortal Betty Davis, "What a dump!"

[fortuneguy]

Although I don't like rival websites, they do provide some insight as to what is going on, once you've become immune to much of the tripe and fairy tales that are also posted.

It seems that visa run problems have been confined to Poipet and to a lesser extent Ban Laem. One guy reported circumnavigating the whole deal by travelling to Phnom Phen.  He received the expected tourist visa but also got a terse instruction printed in red in his passport not to do same again. How the hell can that be justified?

Others have gone to Penang and the border at Burma and had no problems.

[hero]

Pretty sure that Pnom Penh have always been bad at dishing out any kinds of visa.  Thet just don't like doing it full stop.  A former colleague of mine flew there a few years back for a non-Imm B (when they were relatively east to get) and they refused without explanation and didn't even give him a tourist visa!

He left Pnom Penh and presented the same papers in Singapore and got his non-Imm B without hiccup!

[fortuneguy]

Sounds like one of those dirt bag 'jobs worth' consulates, that has forgotten what its basic functions are, let alone the rules it should use to do them.

My friend went there 2 months ago and didn't have a problem, although he is a newcomer to Thailand and doesn't have a history in his passport.

Yet it's in the nature of these places that one thing should happen one day, and another the next.

Incidentally, check out www.pattayapeople.com crime news. Bet you won't be able to stop reading.