Topic: Pathetic salary levels

[snottgoblin]

Have you all seen the post offered on ajarn.com ? (Silly question really) 

The salaries offered are beyond belief ,are the bods at ajarn.com not trying to raise the standards here regarding salaries and indeed qualifications  ?

I seem to  recall some posters on ajarn.com ranting and raving about improving the whole teaching scene in Thailand some time back .

What happened to that campaign  ?

There are known crap shyster schools asking for staff  :crackwhip:yet nothing is done about cleaning up these  academic institutions with problems .

Surely they should be banned from the site to protect the newbees here .

Presumably it is all about money God and Mammom I fear .

Shame on you ajarn.com for helping to oppress foreign teachers even further here in Thailand .

[bomha]

In the middle of March, maybe many schools are playing their usual game of being gone for summer vacation, and they will come back in four or five weeks, and post more jobs.

Maybe ajarn.com jobs site (TEFL-Asia) does not attract the better paying jobs.  Keep in mind, that the better jobs should be shown in the center of the page, and the cheap charlies post their crap=wage jobs in the right margin.

It is a free market.  Do not accept less wages than you should. 

You would think, however, that the schools that really have their faeces in order, would be advertising good paying jobs in March, interviewing next week or by April 5th, and selecting their staff by April 10th.  Then, they would have an intensive, truthful orientation program (paid salary)....and a new BMW for the new teacher.

Yes, I checked yesterday.  The salaries are pathetic.  Other adjectives spring to mind. 

[Ronaldo]

Let us face the fact that salary scales in the vast majority of Thai schools are not good to say the least, however what is so annoying is, that even if you make an effort, do a professional job, kids, other teachers and parents like you, turn up on time, don't go sick (even if you are) and don't make a fuss about the crap you have to put up with, you are treated just the same a some joker who doesn't give a hoot and flip flops around for a couple of months and leaves you doing their classes because they've buggered off to Bali. 

Bearing that in mind, the math bears out the low income status of a teacher, other than being at a bonafide international (professionally affliated, registered etc. etc.) school, of course.

The medium salary seems to be 35,000 Baht per month or 315,000 Baht for a nine months, yep, you might say but, oh my school pays for holidays but as many have said in multiple threads, many do not or simply get you in some other way via visa payments, summer camps, weekends etc. etc. blah blah blah... 

Still 35,000 per month is good you say, especially for only 100 hours of work (25 x 4 weeks), yeah right. In fact your working a full week and probably hitting the 40 hour mark but never mind it is teaching, but not as we know it.

So what does our 100 hours a month get us around 350 Baht an hour minus your tax, travel expenses, accommodation, visa, aggravation of the worst kind, harrassment and the list goes on. SOooo... as you trudge off home after another fun packed day you can be sure that as your pot of gold sinks the owner of the school is laughing all the way to the bank.

Oh, that's right... you didn't see them as they left school three hours before you in that nice new BMW, Mercedes etc. etc. Wouldn't want to lose face as they pulled into the bank car park. 

So what's your job worth... As they say in LOL 'UP TO YOU'

[ajarnnormal]

The saying goes "Pay peanuts and get monkies". I am sure that saying is very true for our work. I have a feeling that things may change, well at least I hope so.

[bomha]

But if good and conscientous teachers work for peanuts, why should a smart employer pay more?

The system does not work logically.  Employers do not know how to select good employees, and some teachers do not know how to figure it out in the interview, either.  Your first job is a gamble for everybody concerned - there is no telling what will happen.  After three jobs, however, you surely should know how to sniff out the faeces in the interview .

[no homework today]

Well I was going to start a thread on this but someone beat me to the quick. So as a good teacher ‘May I have your attention please.’ For the teacher that have been here in Thailand for a while you will already know what I will say but it will be a good read anyway.

If you don’t know anything about ‘Economics 101' you only need to know three words “Supply and Demand”, all the rest seems to go on it’s own. I have seen this on more than one occasion in Thailand so expect this, if business is slow some Thais will put up the price to compensate. Unfortunately that has the opposite effect unless the buyer has no clue about the fair market price.

The Thais will attempt to deny there is a shortage of teacher and try to hold to their wage scale, however that will not work very well when teachers start jumping contracts wholesale. The word is every government school has allocated 44,000 per month for non-Thai teacher, however we all know we see much less than that. It is not had to figure out that money is going into another persons pocket.

The hiring teacher will cry that they have a set budget and that part will be true, however that is not your problem. Your problem will be quicky Thai deals with unqualified teacher and trying to side step the 90/180 visa situation to make their mandate. Expect more of what happened in Bangbon with non qualified teachers being arrested and spending time in jail. The schools do have a mandate, however typically Thais don’t think things out very far ahead and mi pen rai probably wont be much help this time. In this case the mandate works in you favor.

To all teacher STAND YOUR GROUND!!! 50,000 baht per month should be the minimum starting pay and not more than 20 or 21 contact hours per week at that pay. The closer it gets to semester 1 day 1 the more panicked the schools will be. You can bet the higher up official with the overstuffed pockets full of your money will be doing the most screaming.

One way or another something must give but remember to stay to the letter of the law with your visa and work permit. Don’t and I repeat don’t cut any deals because you know it will be you getting screwed if you do and that could include some jail time. The police will be out hunting for people without the proper paperwork rest assured of that. Simply let supply and demand work for you. There is enough money in the system that the Thais can pay for everything, don’t be fooled. If they can invest Billions on sinking airports, they can pay for your visa including your travel expenses to go and get it. It is corruption that is eating into your proper pay, never forget that.

The reason that ajarn.com is so hot now is because there are people that are looking ahead, and if you check most of the names of the contacts are non Thai. The swarm of ad’s that will hit around the end of April... well that is when the fun really starts.

No joke here folks, this is not going to be a regular hiring season, for once teacher will have the upper hand.

Your non B visa takes 1 day however unless things have changed plan a trip. That need to be done before your work permit.

Work permit processing takes no more than 5 working days 7 if they are very busy, and that should be in place before you start. If they say we will get it after you start, simply say no thanks and move on, remember the police will be out and I am sure the inside of a jail is not your idea of fun in Thailand.

[anyonefortennis]

no hw, maybe in BKK but out here in the sticks I canna see it myself, the normal rules of supply and demand just will not apply.

We're seeing it already with government schools lowering the requirements to associate degree, I believe this is the step taken just before they change from native to non-native speaker. 

So rather than employing native speakers at say 40,000 the schools will employ non-native speakers for 15,000 and because all the schools are in the same position if the parents kick-off they'll just say that there are no native speakers left alive, anywhere - and because we're out in the sticks the local yocals wont know any better.

So, if you're outside of Bangkok and surrounding provinces, my advice would be do not sit and wait for the 40-50,000k a month jobs to start rolling in come May, it ain't gonna happen. 

Plus with so many schools now recruiting through the likes of Media Kids (200 f8cking teachers a time) and the special TEFL International 5 month "Thai Adventure" bollocks I canna really see any change in wage levels for a long time to come - lets hope I'm well wrong.

[Mods-Rockers]

Unfortunately AFT I suspect that you have hit the nail dead center on the head. The schools dont seem to like doing tha paperwork and now the vetting to ensure that the teachers paper is kosher, the agency will do it for them but at a premium. the only problem is that the school does not pay the premium, the teacher does by way of lower wages. the school no doubt pay the agencies in the region of 40k/mont but you can bet the teacher would be lucky to see 75% of that!

[no homework today]

Yes no doubt outside of Bangkok the standards are not the same, and as the cost of living is less then a lower wage can be worth the same there. All I am saying is don’t fall to false promises because I am sure they will be coming in by the truck full. The rules of supply and demand are universal meaning as much as the Thais will try to get around it, it wont work. There is still about a month to go before it gets to be crunch time in the market.

Take a look at some of the things outside of the teaching world, and you can see one misjudgment after another with similar results. The 30% issue for companies doing business in Thailand. That went over like a lead balloon and saw a 15% drop in the stock market. There is one after another. So there is not a big need to be a nice guy here as it will only burn you.

“Excuse me my friend, would you mind taking this kilo of cocaine across the border for me, I will meet you on the other side.”

There are two different parts of the Thai government here and the teachers are in the middle. From what I have seen marriages between parts of the Thai government don’t work. The last attempt was labor and immigration. Egos, procedures and possible loss of face don’t let it happen. This is one time not to think like a Thai.

[RobRoy]

Lets try a change of perspective....not my opinion, but lets look at things from the Thai side of things.  Once again, not my opinion, thoughts or beliefs, but lets try and look at the "system" from their point of view.  Damn, I don't even know where to start...and most of these I've seen first hand.

A school hires a teacher, goes thru all the WP and visa shit and then the teacher decides to do a runner.

A school hires a white skinned dude to teach as well as other duties, like greeting parents...the white skinned dude bitches, while the NNS does it with a smile..who would you want to hire?

Qualifications:  My wife is a NNS with 14 years experience teaching ESL.   My degree is in computer science.  I earn farang money teaching English and she does private lessons because the money at schools suck so bad.  Whats up with the qualifications thing?  Who is better qualified and easier to manage?

And thats the bottom line...as long as you're white, breathing and know how to speak a sentence without saying the "F" word, you passed the interview for 80% of schools here.  Until Thai GOVERNMENT schools across the country start inforcing standards for teachers, 30-35K will be the average.   It won't be until the government subsidises teachers salaries to a greater degree that the salaries will increase.

I would be willing to bet that things are going to get worse (more contact hours, more BS activities) before it gets better. 

But what the f do I know?

[no homework today]

No doubt you have some valid points be they are just situations based on personal choice.  This however is caused by the Thai’s own doing. When they decided to do the 90 day max stay on tourist visas, that effectively changed the market. That started October and most of the teachers were in place for the second semester. Now we are starting fresh and like most Thai schools unless you really know how to or want to there is a brand new crop of teachers every year. My guess is less than 10% of the teachers work at the same school for more than one year. There are only a few schools mostly with EP programs that will want to keep their teachers. So the situation is Thai time works against the Thais this time, so they need to be doing their hiring now and not after the annual water and powder bath of mid April.

I have heard second hand rumors from some saying that some schools were planning to hire teachers for only part of a semester so they could work before their 90 day tourist visa was up. I think only a fool would want to spend what limited time he or she has in Thailand standing in front of screaming Thai students knowing that if they are busted they will spend some time in jail.

Let us not forget the non Thai agencies that can’t produce work permits. The contracts they have with the schools will need to be renegotiated so the schools will and not might provide the necessary visas and work permits. If they can’t or don’t well see the paragraph above. If you think the agency can or will protect you, think again.

I agree with you 100% things will get worse before they get better. The schools will do their best to convince you to stay saying things are or will be OK. My first teaching job was a direct hire. When I went to the labor department with the schools Thai liaison, he had a very difficult time because one document was slightly out of order (the date format was not the same day, month, year vs month, day, year). It resulted in the need to get a new document with the format corrected, they would not accept a remarking and initialing. Bottom line is the schools must kiss just as much ass as we do to get the permits and visas, so promises are hollow at best. Remember, The Ministry of Education is not the labor department, and it is also not Immigration. Just don’t be taken in with false promises, I really don’t want to read about teachers in jail again. There are plenty of Thais out there looking to make face by arresting teachers who are not legal or have fake degree documents.  Bottom line if the visa and work permit is not in your hand and you are standing in front of a class........

All of this will simply drive the wages up after a short I don’t want to from the Thais reality will set it. As I do understand your point from a Thai point of view, it does not matter much when it comes to who risks going to jail and who will simply just look for another teacher if one goes to jail. Again this is not a regular hiring season, teachers are in the spotlight and under a magnifying glass. If you have a real degree then don’t be afraid to ask for a fair wage for your hard hours in getting that degree. The Thais will have little choice but to pay. No doubt it was the teachers with fake degrees that contributed to the low wages because they did not want to make waves and settled for the substandard and now standard low pay. If the Thais want quality, they must pay for it the same as everyone else.

[ajarnnormal]

Unfortunately all the statements written are correct and the non native speaker syndrome rears it's ugly head once again. While they continue to work for a low wage we have to sift out the better jobs with better wages. I think if you find one stick with it now until the dust has settled once again if you intend to stay in Thailand. Let's face it there is not much competition for work and maybe a bit of competition for better jobs would be a good thing. that is what would happen in Europe or the States I'm sure. you find the job you want and arrange an interview and sell yourself to the best and highest bidder. There is enough good jobs here. OK, you have the good teacher working for a low wage, that is their choice. Maybe some of the teachers should ask for more money if they have been at their school for a couple of terms and had no complaints.

[RobRoy]

AJ,

Exactly....you have to SIFT for jobs to get a good one here.  They just don't magically show up on ajarn, you have to work to find them.

[RobRoy]

NoHWTDay,

I also agree the change in visa regs are going to dramatically change things.  Those of us who can be employed without any problems are going to be FAR more valuable than teachers on a tourist visa.  But I don't think anything will change until about Oct of this year....this upcoming semester, the schools will be doing the same thing until they realize that they can keep a teacher for more than 2-3 months and come the end of next semester, they will be begging for teachers that are properly papered.   Then I'm betting the pay will go up.  But its just my bet, I always sucked at playing stocks!

Perhaps we should start a pool on when the salary situation changes for the better....my guess 1 Nov 2007!

[snottgoblin]

RobRoy.
         You have the same thoughts as me ,my projected date for fecal matter to encounter the fan was October 2007.

Agreed one has to sift the jobs to find the decent ones, good information for the newbees amongst us I think.Take note newbees.

Myself I am indeed gainfully employed and no gripes and have been so for many a year,we or I certainly managed very well prior to the conception and birth of sites like ajarn.com and prior to that Daves esl cafe.

The Nation,The Bangkok Post and indeed word of mouth with a little bit of door knocking always kept me in ample funds with teaching.

In all my years here I have only taught in language schols for a total of 6 months (two 3 months stints) whilst waitng for the positions I had contracted for to become available as international school academic years are different to the Thai school academic year.

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.,

We real teachers will have our hour .

[ajarnnormal]

Yes you are right we will have our hour and as you rightly said it will be after this semester and the elections. They have now been moved to December (watch this space). We just ride the storm and sit back in our jobs and wait then we can watch it unfold before our very eyes. Well that is the plan anyway! " Your only supposed to blow the bloody doors off !!!!!!"

[no homework today]

I am not sure how you are arriving at October, there are plenty of things that could happen politically. October has always been a month of turbulence in Thailand. The possibility of another coup is possible if the Thais feel that this government is just new paint on a rusting car.

I think May will be the time unless I am overlooking something important. Certainly if they delay and start to panic because we don’t want to be exposing ourselves to arrest, they may try to sweeten the deal. However this is all speculation on my part and I doubt what they would do would be thought out more than 1 or 2 steps and not to conclusion.

Personally when I have gone for interviews I interview them back and just don’t take what they offer, (not only for teaching). This certainly builds a level of respect for you and it reflects your professional background. You certainly would not enter into a marriage if you know or suspect your future spouse would be abusive to you. Based on the content of this site, you know they have history of being abusive. By doing this it puts them on notice that things have changed and it is in their best interest to play by the rules.   

[ajarnnormal]

Like your style man. Of course you are spot on with the situation here. And as the great Jimi Hendrix said.

"You can't believe in everything you see and hear now can you. If you'll excuse me I must be on my way"

[no homework today]

Thanks for the compliment AN, I am just trying to make sure we are all on the same page here. It almost provides an opportunity to act like a union if this gets out to everyone. I am not pro or anti on unions but I do realize that at least in the states companies that have a union deserved them because they managed to piss off everyone enough to form one. Perhaps the powers to be here can help get the word out and not just rely on a random chance of finding this thread. The more people who know about this the better it is for everyone. We don’t need more teachers in jail.

[ajarnnormal]

NHT. I think this site and the Admin are well aware of the situation and are pro union, as you can see with the thread from Andy about unions. They are more than aware of the low wages that are on offer. As regards to doing anything about it, well they do what they can by making people aware and posting your thread so all can read. It is a free speaking forum and it gives everyone a chance to air their views and answer the views of everyone else. there are many guests that also read the threads, so I think the word is out mate.

[no homework today]

I have been out shopping around for a new school and based on who I talked to there was a concern or not. If you care to know;
Thai= mi pen ri.
Non Thai = very concerned about the wages.
Agencies = wait and see.

[Andy]

Your right AN, I am working on somethin'. It's down on the list a bit, but it's there. Once the new format gets rolled out on the main page, it'll jump up the list.

First step is to get up the grievance forms. Rate This School already has a place to link to grievance forms. Once we get 'em rolled out, people can start leavin' true, verifiable grievances against schools.

Second step is to try to make some baseline salary standards for different qualification levels and countries, that's gotta be the hardest.

Third step, getting some semblance of an organization. My goal, keep membership free. Ain't a way to make me rich, just way to help me do somethin' right by teachers.

[Thai Me Up]

ajarn.com typical Bangkok job posting now...30,000 baht/month for 20+ contact periods, but a 7.30 am to 4.30 pm workday (that's a 45 hour work week)?  Schools ask for a bachelor of education plus teaching experience plus CELTA.  The point is, what backpackers are going to be recruited to fit this profile?

I'm in the US now and just contacted an agency I formerly worked for in Bangkok, asking for a letter of intent so I could get my non-immigrant B here in the States before I board the plane for LOS.  Well, they can't do it anymore because Thai law requires they 1) employ 7 thais for every farang and 2) offer me a salary of 60,000 baht; letters of intent are now scrutinized where they weren't "before."  Maybe Thai schools are preparing to hire new teachers every 2 months as tourist visas expire, but another poster observed, "What backpacker is going to want to spend his time in Thailand working under these circumstances?"  (paraphrased)

I don't have the answers, but I'm reluctant to return to Thailand with only a tourist visa.  My last school refused to process visas or work permits for teachers hired after I was, and this was a "prestigious" government school with an English Program.  Has Thailand become a non-starter for English language teachers?

[Geekboy]

Maybe they need backpackers teachers in Thailand? One to breeze in, teach some English and breeze on out. No threat to the status quo and no threat to the Thai teaching establishment.

[Thai Me Up]

Geekboy,
That's absolutely the point...Thai admins rely on backpacker teachers to fill classrooms as warm bodies attached to white faces.  But given the additional school responsibilities and long workday hours, the question is "What backpacker is going to want to grind away 45 hours a week in a school?"  Backpackers come to Thailand to party hearty, to escape being shoehorned into a traditional "serious" job.  Backpacker teachers are NOT going to be happy conscripts into a 45 hour work week.

[Geekboy]

Yeah but dealing with 45 hours a week for a few months is do able when they are getting traveling money. People will put up with a lot for short periods of time.

[no homework today]

As I said it was a second hand rumor on the two month hires. Our strength will come in a simple two letter word ‘NO.’

No I wont stand in the class until I have the proper documents (and then cite Bangbon)

No I wont work for the wages of a person without a degree.

No I wont pay for my visa and work permit, if you want me you should pay.

Don’t be discouraged at this early stage. The word ‘NO’ will gather more power as the start of the semester nears. If you use Ajarn.com you may want to consider putting “I will accept the job with proper wages and” then spell out your terms of employment in your email reply. It is a sellers market.

Once their inbox starts to show this type of response, I would suspect thing to happen as I predicted in earlier posts in this thread.

It is the early part of April now and this is the time of the year Thai teachers get a very short break, so don’t panic if the response is a bit less than you expected. They are thinking about visiting their families and other R&R events. I would guess the week of April 22 will be the start of the Thai ramp-up for the new school year.

[Thai Me Up]

Geekboy,
I don't believe ANY farang, backpacker or professional teacher, is a threat to the Thai status quo.  However, new visa rules, falling wages, more frequent Immigration sweeps, higher teacher education requirements and longer school days will have some impact on the available labor pool this May.

nohomeworktoday, you are correct about negotiating for salary and working conditions.     Now, whether the Thai administrator who hires you remembers what she agreed to the day before is another question.     I'd add to your list of "no's," if a school promises you visa "assistance" and a work permit and reneges on those items, run to the school exit and find another job immediately.  My former school promised new hires visa assistance and work permits, then refused to make good on those promises.  Teachers who let the school admins jerk them along for weeks on end had to leave the country AND lost their jobs when their visas expired.  That's one reason I'm reluctant to board a plane for LOS without my non-immigrant B visa obtained in the US.

[Geekboy]

the immigration sweeps and new visa rules just ensures that everyone is forced to be beholden to their school.

the higher education requirements are just an invitation for schools to pay bribes.

It's all a recipe for more kickbacks and teacher able to demand less.

[no homework today]

I have to disagree with you geekboy at least for this round of hires. Step back from teaching for just a moment and take a good look at what is going on in Thailand. Jumping to politics for just a moment you are seeing the new government jumping down hard on the TRT and Thaksin for corruption. It has never happened at this level before. Can you ever recall Thais treating Thais like they treat non-Thais?

The government is on a roll and their battle cry is Rid the country of corruption. There was a huge article in the Nation a few days ago about a school asking for 100k of tea money for students to enroll in the EP program. FYI Thaksin’s son graduated from that school a few years ago. To put a government school on notice is very unusual.

There is a new rule that went into effect a week or two ago, it allows the corruption  investigating body of the government to start a investigation without a complaint from the ministry in question. Translation even the Minister of education has to toe the line if corruption is suspected on his or her watch.

Seeing non qualified teachers teaching rings of corruption and they would be right in saying that, so expect a visit at the school to check your documents. I feel there is a 90% chance that will happen in all schools including government schools. That visit may very possibly be in the first month so again , it’s your ass on the line.

Many people believe the 90/180 visa rule was triggered by a teacher who made a claim about killing a young girl in the states (no names need be mentioned). If you recall that was before the coup, so they were already on a roll when that happened.

Make no mistake we are in the spotlight. Stand your ground.

[Thai Me Up]

nohomework, your guess is as good as mine as to the immediate future of farang teachers in Thai schools.  Foreign teachers are at best guest workers in Thailand.  But are we now seeing xenophobia unleashed?  Scapegoating?  You say that the government is crusading against corruption, while geekboy states that new visa rules will give rise to new and more creative forms of corruption.  Who is right?  How easy will it be for Immigration to wait outside any school for an exiting farang and demand to see a non-immigrant B visa and work permit?  Don't have 'em?  Step inside this paddywagon...drive the paddywagon on to the next school.

This thread began on a discussion of falling salary levels.  You say, "Stand your ground!"  I feel that when not enough farang line up for these 25,000-baht Bangkok teaching gigs, the Thais will shrug their shoulders and say, "Well, if farang won't teach for this generous salary, we hire Thai teacher do it."  I see Thailand as circling the wagons now, evicting retirees who purchased retirement homes and condos and demanding that farang kneel down to the Old World way of doing things.  Get out and leave your property with us, sign over 51% of your foreign business to us, hand over a 30% bond before doing business here.

This May will be an interesting hiring season.

[no homework today]

The Thai have a mandate to have native speaking teachers, so that works for us and it is also the weakest link in the chain. I don’t know how that will fly because too many people are involved. So the sub 30k jobs may be an issue and no doubt that is where the Thais may try a compromise with semi native speakers. However lets hope the semi native speakers are reading this thread because the same perils apply to them as well.

All I am saying is keep your eyes open to other happenings in Thailand as ultimately they will influence teachers pay as well as working conditions.

Many of the underlying reason that we can expect problems this year are very political based. The government has been accused of being too slow and not doing anything in some cases. The allegations are an attack by the former powers that the coup evicted. So reading the news just this week, the government looks to change it’s image and work on all the bills before the elections in December. Cleaning house in the schools is a very easy task that can give them a lot of face quickly.

As far as new creative forms of corruption, yes there will be attempts but the light is too bright at the moment. Because the light is bright it works in our favor in that both schools and teachers must play by the rules. Supply and demand still applies no matter what goes on in the shadows.

Xenophobia, actually I have another view of that and we see the reason first hand. I think it is directly related to continuously seeing we can and they can’t. Part of that is tied to the lure if the no fail policy. When they finally graduate with a worthless piece of paper because they cheated and goofed off in the back of the class, that makes them lose face in the real world and thus the desire to remove the people who make them lose face in the real world. That is a very Thai response. I know there are many more elements but this one is very obvious to me.

Thai me up, your second paragraph is simply fallout of the attempt to change post Thaksin. Thaksin unlike many Thais thinks things out to conclusion and not just one or two steps. Thaksin took Thailand to a much higher level than the Thais in office now seem to know how to handle. The Thais in office appear to be doing a ‘lets see what this does' approach. All of this ties in to us one way or another.

Understanding the underlying reasons is important, and in this case it is a brand new chapter, so get out your note books and take notes. It will add to your self confidence when they try to razzle dazzle you into working without the proper documents.

[Thai Me Up]

nohomework,
I like your comparison of Thaksin Thailand to post-coup Thailand.  Your analysis is insightful and helps me understand a little more about Thai thinking.

But I believe the no-fail policy is a red herring.  The current mandate of English instruction is basically one 50-minute period of "exposure" to a native speaker a week per class of 50 students.  Oh, and then the Thai version of English grammar.     With government and school holidays, sometimes this amounts to 8-10 meetings per semester with each class.  Thais then paperwork over this inadequacy and have us give 20 manufactured marks to each student, as if this baffle them with bulls**t approach is a substitute for real pedagogy.  If you are suggesting that Thais then blame us farang for this farce, I'm not sure I buy into that.

You keep mentioning supply and demand.  I think ajarn.com is a DEAD web site.  I've spoken with many teaching colleagues, and they say that ajarn.com is no longer a useful portal for a job search.  From where I sit in the US, how will I know which schools are ready to play ball in the 45-50K monthly salary range?  And if I'm supposed to get my non-immigrant B visa here in the US before I board the plane to LOS, do Thai school administrators understand that that is the new reality?

[no homework today]

Well to each their own on where people find their jobs or what website they feel is dead or not. The insight I provided comes from both taking to people as well as the news. It helps to know how solid the ground is you stand on if you plan to not just accept what substandard is offered, that is why I went slightly off topic and talked about it. For people like you back in the US it is much more difficult to find a job you like simply because you are not here to shop around and chat with other teachers from other schools over a beer at a local watering hole. What is said by Thais often does not match reality as many if not all teachers can verify.

The no fail policy, read it anyway you want but the fallout is getting more obvious each year when you start to look more closely excluding sinking airports. This just mostly puts a bad taste in teachers mouths as they watch failing students advance.

Things will heat up the days directly following Songkran, as for now the Thais want some well deserved down time.

How each of us approach the pay and document issue this season is unique. However as always knowledge is power, so tank up folks.

I think it would be a good idea to post interview reports to best see the overall picture. I am sure we will hear “Why is it only you that is asking for this?”  Where that should happen if here in this thread or another place, ask Andy.

[bomha]

Mayhaps I go down the pub wrong.  Perhaps I do not network, bond, interface, or mingle with all the right people.  Be that as it may, I can not see how a new teacher in Thailand knows where to find good jobs.  Or, after one year out in some rural province, just meeting people virtually on the internet, how is she to know where the good jobs are?  And if she arrives at a school with four native speakers, what if she can't talk freely with them?  She does not know if the administrators tell the truth, process work permits, help with visas, etc.  Only if they are on the TEFLSchool Watch Hall of Shame, will she know that this is a bad school.  How many schools in that Hall?  Perhaps six, out of maybe 6,000 schools in Thailand?

Please encourage all those foreign ajarns down the pub to notify TEFLSchool Watch about more bad schools, before they start hiring again.

[no homework today]

Oh I know many if not all do know about the hall of shame, the Friday afternoon gatherings are more about R&R and not necessarily dumping on the bad schools. It is just that you will hear a few more things loosely said if hands are around a beer and not a keyboard. 

[Thai Me Up]

nohomework,
Clearly, I am going to let go of my Thai job search until after the Songkran holiday.  So far responses to my email enquiries from the US seem blissfully ignorant of the Catch-22 visa pickle.  Or else school admins believe that hiring a farang teacher is more about good fortune than anything as pro-active as recruiting, advertising, or bearing the expense of a long-distance telephone interview call.

bomha, you are absolutely right when you ask, "How will a teacher new to the job market know...?"  At my prior government school (not a HOS listing), the school admins decided to stop processing permits and visas after firing 50% of staff at mid-year.  My new-hire colleagues were stressed out because of new visa regs (remember, I had the correct visa before arriving in Thailand), and it seemed that the school was dragging its feet to process the LEGALLY REQUIRED paperwork.  One teacher was married to a Thai lady - the school knew this - and after jerking him along with false promises for 12 weeks, he was told "The visa is your problem, not ours" on the last day his visa was valid.  For me, traveling to Thailand without a non-immigrant B visa would be handing over too much power to prospective employers, and visa nightmare stories ARE under-reported.

[no homework today]

I agree with you about waiting until the water and powder bath are over. I have attended a few interviews in the last few weeks, and the mood was we have some time so we can be picky. To me that is fine, it sets up the scenario that will benefit us. When the mad rush comes and the prospective teachers become very hesitant about becoming the next guest at the Bangkok Hilton or it’s smaller branches about the country panic will set in. I don’t want to predict what will happen but it will be loaded with promises they can’t keep. The person that interviews you in most cases is not the person who makes the big decisions necessary to make things right. I would think making use of phrases like:

What day will my visa and work permit be ready so I can start work?

If my visa and work permit are not ready on opening day, I hope you don’t plan to doc my pay because someone else waited too long. (Not very Thai face friendly but the message gets across)

No I am sorry, I can’t work just for this week with out proper papers, there is simply too much risk. You know this year is very different and you know what happened in Bangbon.

A very important point is don’t hang around on school grounds unless you are busy signing the necessary papers to get you work permit or visa. It will become difficult to prove that you are not working. When they panic you can bet you will be in signing papers during first period. If they delay and say this afternoon, then ask what time you should return. Cite the same reason about it being difficult to prove you are not working yet. It is very important not to compromise on your safety and well being. When that happens watch how fast things happen.

Get a copy of everything. Many schools will not give you copies and lose them when the time is right. No copy no work. This is a very common game if you go direct with a government school.

Bottom line if it is not straight forward then it is all just a game to get you to teach without the proper documents. Use your best judgment, we have the upper hand. Citing Bangbon will become a powerful ally when it comes to saying no.

[Thai Me Up]

nohomework,
This is a mildly amusing job search result.  The following is a direct quote answer I received when I suggested in an email a [long distance] telephone interview with a prospective employer, explaining that I was in the US and needed to procure my non-immigrant B visa BEFORE boarding the plane to LOS:   "We will continue to require personal interviews until we cannot get tourist visas changed. If you are very interested in ***************** you will visit us without guarantee of employment."  All this for my dream job, a 30,000 baht/month position advertised on ajarn.com.  BTW, the writer was farang.   

I'm not sure what invoking Bangbon will mean to a Thai recruiter.  I think it amounts to a pissing match with a prospective employer.  Suffice it to say that the visa and work permit will be non-negotiable items, and that teachers will be wise to jump ship if a school is reluctant, unable or unwilling to process these legally required docs.

[los_teacher]

It is not correct to expect a work permit on opening day if you are a new employee at the school.  Department of Labor will not process work permit until you are under contract.  Your contract begins on the first day.  It takes a couple of weeks to process the paperwork and get the work permit issued..  If you are working at a private school then a teacher's license is also required, which could add a bit more time to the process.

[bomha]

It is not correct to expect a work permit on opening day if you are a new employee at the school.  Department of Labor will not process work permit until you are under contract.  Your contract begins on the first day.  It takes a couple of weeks to process the paperwork and get the work permit issued..  If you are working at a private school then a teacher's license is also required, which could add a bit more time to the process.

I believe you are correct, in 98% of the cases.  Thus, it is virtually impossible to teach legally in Thailand to begin with.  I also still think that it is extremely difficult to know what the fark you are signing up for, even if they give you the copy after the Director/God signs it.

[no homework today]

Point taken that you can’t get your work permit the same day, that is why I said panic will happen. The schools that have the cognitive ability to foresee the problem are doing that now so all will be in place for day one. The mi pen ri same same as last year schools will be the ones to watch out for. So yes you can be legal from day one and it does only take 1 week to process unless they are backlogged then 7 non holiday weekdays wild be right. Don’t fall into that trap. If you are not signed a least week before you will be asked to work illegally. See my previous posts. A few adjustments to the wording of contacts like pay starts on May 1 will fix that problem so you can sign and get processed now. There are no excuses that I can see.

[los_teacher]

Sounds like a reasonable way to solve the problem, but I seriously doubt schools will change their procedures. 

They would be worried that you may try to sue them for that extra week's pay - the week in which you aren't really working - even if it is clearly spelled out.  Pre-dating a contract would be anathema to most Thai personnel managers as it just isn't done (at least I've never heard of it being done in the 5 years I've been here).

Moreover, I believe there is virtually zero risk to an employee who begins working without proper documents.  Immigration and MoE officials are aware of the process to become legal and they have proven to be quite flexible on this kind of thing.  The crackdowns have been to catch people with fake documents.  As long as you have a degree, your school is in good standing with the gov't, and the school is following the appropriate procedures in a timely fashion there won't be any problems.  The government really isn't out to get us.  They just want to make sure that teachers are properly qualified and that they aren't criminals.  Sure, there are a few hurdles placed in our paths so that extra revenues can be generated, but that's true in every aspect of this country.

Bomha, you also make a great point.  There really is no way to suss out whether a school is decent or not.  Even the HoS isn't a perfect indicator.  See the BCC thread - twice a HoS school - but all BCC teachers who posted this year have sung praises.   I suspect that there only two ways to truly know about a school.  Either you work there yourself or you know somebody who works there.

[Thai Me Up]

bomha and los_teacher,
I don't care about the work permit.  The non-immigrant B visa is the key.  It's become hit-or-miss which neighboring countries will issue the non-immigrant visa.  The Thai military junta is strongly recommending that guest workers arrive with the correct visa, not float in on a tourist visa and change over.  Is it an acceptable risk to ignore this mandate and continue to be a visa run teacher, at least for three months?  I've had teaching colleagues screwed over by schools that refused to provide visa assistance despite promising/contracting to do so.  I've heard of teachers rounded up at their residences who had signed 1-year apartment leases but who only held tourist visas.  This will be an interesting hiring season...

[los_teacher]

1) Any decent school will give you the appropriate paperwork in the first couple of days in the contract.  You can then take this paperwork to get a non-B at a neighboring country.  Thus, you would not be a visa runner.

2) There is a process to convert Tourist Visas (proper ones obtained in your home country) to Non-B Visas at immigration in Suan Phlu (Bangkok).   This is a new service provided since the start of this year.

[Thai Me Up]

los_teacher,
..."decent school..." - that's an oxymoron in Thailand if ever I heard one.  I managed to enjoy two great teaching experiences in Thailand, but most of my teaching colleagues were practically tarred and feathered on the visa and work permit issue.

Maybe getting a "real" tourist visa in the US and then converting at Immigration is a plan, or the only option at this point.

[fortuneguy]

I don't think anything will change because for all the huffing and puffing that goes on people still sign up to crap contracts.  I fear also that for all their intelligence many teachers are both inexperienced in life and also just no good at basic sums. I suppose many come out with a big dream and that takes precedence over reality; can't blame them for that though, hell we all need dreams especially when we are young.  Others may not be able to make cool decisions because of immediate financial pressures, ie, a low wage is better than no wage. Again, who will criticise their pragma?

In theory, the tightened visa regulations and clampdown on illegal working should see higher wage levels but equally many teachers might be more concerned about securing a work permit before thinking about anything else.

Whilst the posting about supply and demand being crucial determinants is of course correct in any other situation, it does fall in to the deadly error of bringing western thinking to Thai practices.  It is invariably the farang who pays- win or lose, that is the only axiom that counts.

[bomha]

Fortune Guy, you are so right that intelligent teachers are just no good at basic sums, some of them.  We joke about the Thais needing a calculator to do simple sums, but even some experienced farang teachers sign up for 30,000 baht jobs in Bangkok, thinking that is enough.  It will not be enough if the motosai falls down with you on it, your Mum gets a terminal illness back home, or your bird gets preggers. 

As you say, they think a low wage is better than no wage.  I did that more than once, so I will not criticise their pragma or their magma.  The law of supply, demand and price does not work in communist countries or in Thailand.

[Thai Me Up]

bomha/Fortune Guy,
I don't believe 30,000 baht a month is enough to live on in BKK, regardless of falling motorcycles or pregnant GFs.  I daresay that's enough for some apartment security deposits now, and we all know about the two-tier payment scheme where we farang pay the upper tier.  If the laws of supply and demand applied in Thailand, then condos wouldn't still be appreciating with the glut of properties on the market.  I still think this will be an "interesting" hiring season for schools.

Teachers with bachelors of education, CELTA certification and teaching credentials from their home countries will not be arriving by the planeload anytime soon, contrary to the desires of most job posters on ajarn.com.

[bomha]

bomha/Fortune Guy,
I don't believe 30,000 baht a month is enough to live on in BKK, regardless of falling motorcycles or pregnant GFs.  I daresay that's enough for some apartment security deposits now, and we all know about the two-tier payment scheme where we farang pay the upper tier.  If the laws of supply and demand applied in Thailand, then condos wouldn't still be appreciating with the glut of properties on the market.  I still think this will be an "interesting" hiring season for schools.

Teachers with bachelors of education, CELTA certification and teaching credentials from their home countries will not be arriving by the planeload anytime soon, contrary to the desires of most job posters on ajarn.com.

Sorry, that was a typo.  I should have written 36,000 baht a month.

[fortuneguy]

Obviously I hope market forces do take their course.  Thais do have an uncanny knack of somehow avoiding them however. 

Is even 36,000 bt enough? Most farangs need western style housing and for many western food too. It's very much in the nature of today's life that we have to plan for later life. We also tend to overlook the initial expenses involved in getting here, and possible cost of alternatives foregone. I guess for a twenty/thirty something single male (or female) then it's enough to have a reasonably good time, have enough to keep up with dentistry work, pay for the odd outpatients bill, have a holiday, and return home in a couple of years in much the same financial shape.

Any other factor that comes in to the equation, then surely it's deal off.

[Thai Me Up]

I think 40K baht is baseline for BKK.  There really is little qualitative difference betwen 36K 40K and 45K as far as accommodation or lifestyle is concerned in BKK, but 30K means eating rice and cockroaches for dinner 2x a week.  A teaching gig in Thailand truly is a poor start for a young person's working career.  fortuneguy, you hit the mark when you say after a couple of years, the teacher returns home "in much the same financial shape."  Now it seems that many schools are demanding the teacher stay on campus 7.30 to 16.30 every day.  There may be 20 contact periods (or more!?!?), but these work hours amount to a 45 hour work week.  mai sanuk!

[los_teacher]

I would tend to agree with all of the above.  For me I think 45-50k would be the minimum salary to be reasonably comfortable in BKK.

[Thai Me Up]

I enjoyed a Chinese meal out last night and thought, Maybe I should be teaching English in China...  After all, the food doesn't burn going in and coming out, plus a Chinese school may pay my airfare and provide an apartment.  My long-distance request for non-imm B visa documentation seems to be a deal breaker for Thai schools and agencies I've contacted so far; my requests have fallen on deaf ears.  If I arrive in Thailand with only a tourist visa, I have a relatively narrow window of opportunity to secure employment and navigate the whrilpool of Thai visa laws.  I'm not sure a Thai payday is worth all this effort.

[los_teacher]

T_M_U

Check your PM's - I've suggested a couple of options for you

[no homework today]

I can understand what you are saying that the Thais always seem to find a way out of paying. They may try the “We can’t find another teacher” game and ask you to cover without compensation. I would say the chances of that are 11 out of 10. Don’t say I will commit to doing that as it lets them off the hook and you will be stuck with that for the remainder of the semester. The Thais can only get away with things if you let them. No doubt that is how all the feet dragging about getting documents on time started.

[Thai Me Up]

NHT,
By "cover without compensation," are you referring to teaching more contact periods than originally contracted or substitute teaching for an absent colleague?  I don't understand.

[fortuneguy]

Usually, a thread is more 50/50. I'm surprised there isn't somebody defending the Thai experience.  Seems to me everybody is in agreement.  Anyone with differing views I'm sure you won't get ripped to pieces.

[no homework today]

TMU In this case more than contract.  However getting paid for it is another story all together. Once you start doing it they will get comfortable and expect it every week. If you are a direct hire then it is your word against theirs as they control all the record books you sign at the end of each class. My best advise in this case if you cave in is if your phone has a camera, then click away at each over and above signature in the book. If you are working for a Thai agency then your chances go up to about the same as seeing snow in Bangkok for getting paid. If you have a non-Thai agency they you should get paid one way or another but chances are with some delay. Never forget whoever has been skimming teachers pay is not likely to give up his cut of your pay. However they will be in a hot seat too when the anti corruption powers above start running the numbers.

I was thinking about this after my last post, but a good way to judge how desperate they are looking for teachers is by the number of advertisements. The Thais will advertize in more places long before they up the pay. When you start seeing inserts in restaurant menus then you know they are desperate. Look for a spike in the next few weeks.

I had a interview yesterday in what turned out to be a group of schools that projected the appearance of an agency. They were running a open interview at a Bangkok hotel. I went to the interview with the mind set that I was not going to just accept any job so I put on my jeans and my yellow shirt the with royal crest on the pocket, white sneakers, and took my thumb drive with a PDF file of my resume on it. When I arrived the receptionist asked me to fill out a job application. I said I want to find out what you have to offer before I fill out any application. There is no sense in wasting my time filling it out if I don’t like the job. I never filled one out and they still offered the job. They promptly offered me 35,000 simply because I started interviewing them back. It was a panel of 3 people doing the interview. Take notes here people, I used all the buzz words and it very quickly got their attention. The buzzword were You know what happened in Bangbon and no teacher will even risk standing in front of a class without documents in hand, You do know there will be no teachers around because of the 90/180 visa law so simple supply and demand, and the big one If you want people with degrees then why do you offer a pay for people without degrees? Needless to say it resulted in them handing me a name card and implying that they wanted me to reconsider and work for the lower pay. FYI I asked for 45,000. So taking a dominant approach and not a submissive approach is a plus in this case but I do have a very solid resume too.

 A foot note the majority of the potential teacher waiting for a interview were from the Philippines but I suspect it was a open interview and many other ads exclude teacher from the Philippines.

I had a few other interviews with non Thai agencies over the last 10 days and they were very cued in on the situation and they did foresee a increase in pay coming. They will probably be the catalyst in jump starting the pay increase. So tell them how much you are worth and when the schools finally break down and start calling them, they can say I have teacher that will work for x amount.

Another foot note. The papers have been reporting that eastern Bangkok has several thousand students that don’t have a seat. I think this has to do with the new airport and the shift of airport employees from the old airport. This will probably have class sizes pushing 60 to 70 students in that area. So it may be advised to stop at an Army surplus store for battle gear if you are working in that area. Meaning bring it up in your contract before you sign. They may offer you a bit more money.

[Thai Me Up]

nohomeworktoday,
I think lying to the farang teacher about weekly contact periods even after a contract is signed is de rigeur in BKK.  My last school tried this, I put my foot down, and the classes disappeared.  Well, I ended up teaching one more extra class per week.  As for subbing, even in the US our teachers unions usually negotiate for us to sub 10 periods per year WITHOUT compensation.  Any subbing over 10 is compensated additionally.  If I have to sub for an absent teacher without compensation, I don't go ballistic.

That's a funny comment about the inserts in the restaurant menus.  We'll see about a salary spike.  Since you mentioned it, my asking salary is 49K...I can always negotiate.  If it's truly a teacher's market, this is the way to test those waters.

I'm so glad you described your experience at the employment event.  I had seen that advertised on ajarn.com and hoped one of the TEFL posters would check it out.  While your comments got their attention, they only asked you to reconsider the lower salary.  Typical.  I used to get many telephone calls offering work, but when I suggested the offered salary was lower than what I was currently considering, something didn't click in the interviewer's head that, "Hey, I better up the offer."  All I'd get was, "We'd like you to come in for an interview."

fortuneguy,
I really enjoyed teaching in Thailand.  I'd like to do it again, but still haven't booked my return flight to LOS.

[no homework today]

I would not call it lying and particularly not this hiring season. At the moment it has not clicked to the Thais that there are probably more jobs than qualified teachers. But yes put your foot down. Say that you will not have time to do your regular work is helpful particularly if it has a due date if you can’t muster the courage to stand up to them.

Covering for one of your co teachers is another story, and that you should use your best judgment.

I am glad you saw that advertisement. Let me point out a few other things in particular. They asked for you to bring all your documents and a photo, all I brought was my Thumb drive with my resume on it. I did not even bring my passport.

The layout of the room for that interview was designed to intimidate. They sat behind a 3 meter long table that was covered with a cloth. The chair you sat in was all alone front and center of the table about 2 meters away.  As soon as I started interviewing them back that facade fell to pieces.

I don’t know about you but asking for a photo rubs me the wrong way and makes me feel like cattle. Simply it is a prerequisite to some form of discrimination. If they want a photo of me I will let them take one after being hired. At that point I know it is for the teachers file.

[Thai Me Up]

I can tell you didn't like the beauty pageant feel to the event.  I don't think bringing a photo is an unreasonable  request because this may be the only way recruiters remember you after seeing so many applicants.  Don't you find it helpful to have pictures of your students to match their names to their faces?  You may have reacted to a general feeling of the venue.  As far as discrimination is concerned, as a white male in America, I have been passed up for many jobs by companies in their "affirmative action mode."  I even had an interviewer once tell me, "Too bad you're not *****."  I understand institutionalized discrimination, but if someone wants my mug shot, they can have it.  If they don't like my face, they can always hang my picture in the toilet as a laxative substitute.   

[bomha]

I try to 'psyche myself up' for a job interview, but I wonder if we are getting overly macho or arrogant if we walk in to any job interview with the obvious attitude that they owe us a living, and should grovel at our feet.  Having said that though, in the interview described above, I would have moved that chair to the front of the three meter table, sat down in it, and said, "Good morning.  My name is Charlie Bomha.  Which one of you is the chairman of this interview committee, please?"  In other words, show them I have initiative, and I am not totally submissive.  When they make a rediculous salary offer, I respond, "Well, with all due respect, maybe your boss will not let you make a larger offer than that, but I could not accept such a low salary.  Are you authorized to negotiate that amount, please?"

I have wasted too much time in interviews that went nowhere.  Now I reach a point where I gracefully end it by saying, "Well, thank you very much for your time, but I cannot work for you.  I hope you find somebody who will.  Good bye."

[no homework today]

Yes I admit I was in a bit of a mood that day but too often Things are not as they seem in Thailand. The advertizement said at least 40,000 was for starters and the vagueness was another alarm. The shorter advertisements the greater the chance it was written by Thais. I really was not in the mood to be lead down a path of fairy tails. Because of my approach I was in charge of the interview and not them, and that is the way it should be in this market.

It really does not matter how you show the “No bull accepted” sign just as long as you do. Yes had I been in another mood I certainly would have pulled the chair up to the table and done exactly as you described. The visual cues given to them will be very powerful as Thais are great readers of body language. As long as you go in with the mind set that you have the upper hand, your body language will match.

Today I called one of the non Thai recruiter I had seen last week on a followup phone call. I even made mention of this interview with him. He said the Thais will probably react the day after school starts and I tend to agree with him. With that thought in mind it may appear to be a game of Chicken during interviews but in reality it will just take them that long to figure it out at the decision making level. Followed by a few days of Thai style patch work and an attempted work around avoiding their wallet. So by the end of the first few days at school without teachers they should sort it out.

Don’t forget to make back pay to May 1 mandatory when you finally sign because you know they will try to cut corners and stiff you.  It is not your fault they did not see the market changed so why should you be punished by being docked pay.

[Geekboy]

Don’t forget to make back pay to May 1 mandatory when you finally sign because you know they will try to cut corners and stiff you.  It is not your fault they did not see the market changed so why should you be punished by being docked pay.

Right on, if they don't pay you the pay from May 1st, they will pocket it themselves. Don't give them extra money just because they wait till the last minute.

[no homework today]

I got a call from a Thai agency today and he offered 36000, I said 45000, he laughed I hung up.

Then He called back and he asked why I wanted 45000, I said because I have a degree. He laughed again I said the price goes up May 1. He stopped laughing and asked why.

That was on Monday I deliberately put him off until Tuesday and I called him back. I went over the reason again and he (seemed?) to grasp the concept that there are no teachers around this year. His reply was he would look for a school that would pay more but I though I detected a chuckle.

It may be a wise Idea to avoid Thai agencies this round as they will be late to understand.

[Thai Me Up]

nohomeworktoday,
It's way too early to accept a substandard offer.  He can chuckle all he wants, but 45K/month is a completely reasonable salary for BKK.  BTW, did you see the job listing for 35K-37.5K, but teacher must pay for visa, work permit, taxes, tax ID card and health insurance?  I've been calling these agencies with grandiose sounding names (i.e., American English Magnificent Language School in Universe) or else mere initials (no web sites), and the salaries being offered through them are a waste of time.  The shame is, these outfits are run by farang who don't seem to grasp the concept of "recruiting."

[no homework today]

No I have not seen that ad, but I expect a bunch of 30,000 or less jobs to start to appear on ajarn.com. Perhaps a bunch of phone calls to that and other agencies from teachers can send a message of unacceptable.

speaking of that I saw a thread on ajarn.com that talks of teacher shortages. Perhaps someone who has posted there can point them to this thread, I think there may be some teacher who post there and don’t look here. We need to get as many teachers on the same page as possible for this to have a significant impact on future beer money.

[fortuneguy]

30000 is the pits.  Sure a single man could eek out some sort of existence - I suppose.  Why?, he asks.

1. I'm highly qualified with a skill in short supply.
2. I wasn't put on this earth to line someone elses' pockets.
3. I'm not a mug.
4. I don't want to live in a dump and stare at the walls 7 days a week.
5. I haven't got my hands in a rich relatives pocket like many Thais.
6. I pay through the nose for everything (perhaps that's why mine's always dripping).
7. I have a wife and/or family to keep.

Any more to add?

Finally, worked out why many if not most Thai youngsters ( and some not so youngsters) think farangs have an inexhaustible supply of large amounts of free money: it's because they are describing their situation and assuming it goes for the farang too.

Good posts TMU and NHT.

[Thighlander]

It's great to see some firmness.  I'm with you guys.  Paying to work is not for me.

Don't forget to hang up n the Filipinos and the Indians.  Just picture yourself standing there sweating your bag off after working a 9 hour day, and that shiney new Mercedes Benz rolls buy--paid for with students tuition money that should have been your beer money!  No less than 45K in BKK, and 38K elsewhere, is completely reasonable.

I sure do hope you guys report back to our "Association" and let us know what these lowlife recruiters have to say; I'll do the same.

[no homework today]

I agree that 45,000 is a reasonable pay for Bangkok for a speaking and listening job in a Thai program. Getting into a EP 50,000 would be the minimum simply because there is much more responsibility and work to do. In reply 21 Andy said about getting some sort of standard set. I think if we just start asking for 45,000 and no less it will be a good start. I am sure you can expect some sort of repackaging of the lower wage or scam at the end of the contract as some sort of bull from some schools. With that thought in mind you have the option to strike out and add things on your contact. also don’t let them run off with all the copies. Simply say no copy in your hand, no teacher in class.

Although this site has a lot of information about schools it is very spread out. I for one would like to see some sort of storable spread sheet page with all the schools listed. I am sure that would be one of the more popular pages and could generate a lot of ad revenue (hint). A quick check to that page and we can know what bad boy schools that 45,000 should become 50,000 and 50,000 become 55,000 to be known as an “Aggravation fee.”  Nothing like some financial incentive to make out jobs more tolerable.

[Thai Me Up]

My first FT teaching gig in BKK paid 45K (in 2005), and that was at a very poor government school that only required me to be on campus when I was teaching.  I asked for the 45K and received it.  My second gig paid a poor 40K at an EP; the air-conditioned rooms and small classes were very alluring.  Yes, nohomeworktoday, I was paperworked to death at the EP, but a few extra Saturday morning classes at the EP pushed my salary to 49K/month.  Then, the Thais disinvited us farang to the Saturday teaching, so I was back to 40K.  At the EP, I had to sign in at 7.30 for the morning ritual where the assistant director lectured the 3,000 member student body for 45 mins. every blasted day.  What a waste of time!  [While I like the idea of "combat pay" or an "aggravation fee" for working at certain schools, I don't think that's a realistic request.]

fortuneguy, if I wanted a Peace Corps experience I'd have joined the Peace Corps.  There is no "living" in the Kok for 30K, especially when shaving gel costs 191 baht and agencies are now daring to ask us to pay for our own work permits, visa expenses, taxes and health insurance. 

I'm finished with hand wringing though - it's too early in the game.  fortuneguy, you are right about lining someone else's pockets.  If a school director or agency can skim so much money from tuitions or farang salaries to afford a Mercedes, then he/she can also pay me 45-50K for the prestige factor of having a real BA English professional teacher on staff.  45K is my asking for govt school, more for EP or Demonstration school.

[no homework today]

It seems we have gotten to the point of Thai posts on ajarn.com 30,000 is about the top job. A guess we can add physical abuse to the disrespect we get. I went to look at a job last week, the teachers were expected to use a desk the size of my night stand and sit on folding chairs. I guess my back would last about 2 days without any lumbar support. Another was a un air-conditioned office at another school with 22 contact hours. I think the next 2 weeks we will start to note the panic and promises that have no substance. Both jobs we advertized as more but turned out to be 35,000.

[Thai Me Up]

I noticed that contact periods are now at 22.  What's up with that?

[los_teacher]

22 Contract Periods has been the standard for the last five years (in my experience).  I have seen them as high as 24 and as low as 18, even 16 in a few select schools, but that is pretty rare.  It is 22 max at my school, but in actually the teachers only do 20

[Thai Me Up]

Thanks los_teacher.  I know we have gripes about Thai recruiters and callous treatment received as guest workers, but check this out.  I was invited by a New York City teacher recruiter to an interview in San Francisco, but my recruiter ditched my interview.     That's right, the recruiter was a no-show.  When I tried to telephone the recruiter's telephone number she gave at the hotel/interview site, my call went to a New York City answering machine.

I returned to my home and wrote an email to the effect, "Don't you think you should let me know if you can't make an interview?"  I received an email that stated, "Sorry you had a misunderstanding about the interview time, but there  was a 'computer error' on your email and the interview time was supposed to be 1:00 pm, not 10:00 am.  Besides, you haven't taken xyz course so we'd be wasting our time in meeting with you anyway."

It gets better.  I sent my valid passport to the US Passport agency to have pages added (I paid $60 for expedited service), and the agency "lost" my passport and check.  Now I'm out of luck.  It's amazing to me that I've been jerked around WORSE in my own country than in the 1-1/2 years I worked in Thailand.

[bomha]

22 Contract Periods has been the standard for the last five years (in my experience).  I have seen them as high as 24 and as low as 18, even 16 in a few select schools, but that is pretty rare.  It is 22 max at my school, but in actually the teachers only do 20

Not so in my limited experience and observation.  My last contract limited me to less than 20 hours per week.  My first full time gig was ten hours per week, plus other duties as assigned, which they promised me would not add up to a total of more than 15, which it never did.  Other things about the assignments sucked the big lemon, but I never worked 20 hours per week in contact classrom hours.

One aspect of the job seems to be ignored by the Thai school bosses: most of us have not been catatonically teaching the same garbage for ten years to classrooms of 48 students.  Most of us must create original lesson plans that are creative and effective, for each class we teach.  Some of us have taught Maths, Scienes, History, or PE in addition to English - a variety of academic disciplines which most Thai teachers of English would not touch with a three meter pole.  Ask your tenured Thai teacher of English to teach your maths class, 100% in English!

[no homework today]

I have just noted that the interview I talked about in posts 58 and 60 has now appeared under another agency for the same job. The advertizement is a bit deceptive as it says up to 40,000. Seeing that was 3 weeks ago it highly suggests they can’t find any teachers to fill the positions they had. They also were not looking for a whole army of teachers either, only about 5 to 7 as I recall.

Read this anyway you want but I see it as the first signs of the shortage surfacing. Why would one agency of sorts farm out to another looking for teachers?

there is another very attive thread in the ajarn.com forum call "teachers wages supply and demand" on this topic. It is a newer thread but is very popular with several thousand views.

[bomha]

I have just noted that the interview I talked about in posts 58 and 60 has now appeared under another agency for the same job. The advertizement is a bit deceptive as it says up to 40,000. Seeing that was 3 weeks ago it highly suggests they can’t find any teachers to fill the positions they had. They also were not looking for a whole army of teachers either, only about 5 to 7 as I recall.

Read this anyway you want but I see it as the first signs of the shortage surfacing. Why would one agency of sorts farm out to another looking for teachers?

there is another very attive thread in the ajarn.com forum call "teachers wages supply and demand" on this topic. It is a newer thread but is very popular with several thousand views.

To nohomeworktoday: I think maybe the school could not get qualified applicants, and switched agencies.

There is a similar thread on ThaiVisa http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=116042 with over 3,000 views and about 80 posts, entitled New School Year Positions and Salaries.  It seems that, at least outside Bangkok, not many positions are advertizing on ajarn.com.