Topic: Pathetic salary levels

[snottgoblin]

Have you all seen the post offered on ajarn.com ? (Silly question really) 

The salaries offered are beyond belief ,are the bods at ajarn.com not trying to raise the standards here regarding salaries and indeed qualifications  ?

I seem to  recall some posters on ajarn.com ranting and raving about improving the whole teaching scene in Thailand some time back .

What happened to that campaign  ?

There are known crap shyster schools asking for staff  :crackwhip:yet nothing is done about cleaning up these  academic institutions with problems .

Surely they should be banned from the site to protect the newbees here .

Presumably it is all about money God and Mammom I fear .

Shame on you ajarn.com for helping to oppress foreign teachers even further here in Thailand .

[bomha]

In the middle of March, maybe many schools are playing their usual game of being gone for summer vacation, and they will come back in four or five weeks, and post more jobs.

Maybe ajarn.com jobs site (TEFL-Asia) does not attract the better paying jobs.  Keep in mind, that the better jobs should be shown in the center of the page, and the cheap charlies post their crap=wage jobs in the right margin.

It is a free market.  Do not accept less wages than you should. 

You would think, however, that the schools that really have their faeces in order, would be advertising good paying jobs in March, interviewing next week or by April 5th, and selecting their staff by April 10th.  Then, they would have an intensive, truthful orientation program (paid salary)....and a new BMW for the new teacher.

Yes, I checked yesterday.  The salaries are pathetic.  Other adjectives spring to mind. 

[Ronaldo]

Let us face the fact that salary scales in the vast majority of Thai schools are not good to say the least, however what is so annoying is, that even if you make an effort, do a professional job, kids, other teachers and parents like you, turn up on time, don't go sick (even if you are) and don't make a fuss about the crap you have to put up with, you are treated just the same a some joker who doesn't give a hoot and flip flops around for a couple of months and leaves you doing their classes because they've buggered off to Bali. 

Bearing that in mind, the math bears out the low income status of a teacher, other than being at a bonafide international (professionally affliated, registered etc. etc.) school, of course.

The medium salary seems to be 35,000 Baht per month or 315,000 Baht for a nine months, yep, you might say but, oh my school pays for holidays but as many have said in multiple threads, many do not or simply get you in some other way via visa payments, summer camps, weekends etc. etc. blah blah blah... 

Still 35,000 per month is good you say, especially for only 100 hours of work (25 x 4 weeks), yeah right. In fact your working a full week and probably hitting the 40 hour mark but never mind it is teaching, but not as we know it.

So what does our 100 hours a month get us around 350 Baht an hour minus your tax, travel expenses, accommodation, visa, aggravation of the worst kind, harrassment and the list goes on. SOooo... as you trudge off home after another fun packed day you can be sure that as your pot of gold sinks the owner of the school is laughing all the way to the bank.

Oh, that's right... you didn't see them as they left school three hours before you in that nice new BMW, Mercedes etc. etc. Wouldn't want to lose face as they pulled into the bank car park. 

So what's your job worth... As they say in LOL 'UP TO YOU'

[ajarnnormal]

The saying goes "Pay peanuts and get monkies". I am sure that saying is very true for our work. I have a feeling that things may change, well at least I hope so.

[bomha]

But if good and conscientous teachers work for peanuts, why should a smart employer pay more?

The system does not work logically.  Employers do not know how to select good employees, and some teachers do not know how to figure it out in the interview, either.  Your first job is a gamble for everybody concerned - there is no telling what will happen.  After three jobs, however, you surely should know how to sniff out the faeces in the interview .

[no homework today]

Well I was going to start a thread on this but someone beat me to the quick. So as a good teacher ‘May I have your attention please.’ For the teacher that have been here in Thailand for a while you will already know what I will say but it will be a good read anyway.

If you don’t know anything about ‘Economics 101' you only need to know three words “Supply and Demand”, all the rest seems to go on it’s own. I have seen this on more than one occasion in Thailand so expect this, if business is slow some Thais will put up the price to compensate. Unfortunately that has the opposite effect unless the buyer has no clue about the fair market price.

The Thais will attempt to deny there is a shortage of teacher and try to hold to their wage scale, however that will not work very well when teachers start jumping contracts wholesale. The word is every government school has allocated 44,000 per month for non-Thai teacher, however we all know we see much less than that. It is not had to figure out that money is going into another persons pocket.

The hiring teacher will cry that they have a set budget and that part will be true, however that is not your problem. Your problem will be quicky Thai deals with unqualified teacher and trying to side step the 90/180 visa situation to make their mandate. Expect more of what happened in Bangbon with non qualified teachers being arrested and spending time in jail. The schools do have a mandate, however typically Thais don’t think things out very far ahead and mi pen rai probably wont be much help this time. In this case the mandate works in you favor.

To all teacher STAND YOUR GROUND!!! 50,000 baht per month should be the minimum starting pay and not more than 20 or 21 contact hours per week at that pay. The closer it gets to semester 1 day 1 the more panicked the schools will be. You can bet the higher up official with the overstuffed pockets full of your money will be doing the most screaming.

One way or another something must give but remember to stay to the letter of the law with your visa and work permit. Don’t and I repeat don’t cut any deals because you know it will be you getting screwed if you do and that could include some jail time. The police will be out hunting for people without the proper paperwork rest assured of that. Simply let supply and demand work for you. There is enough money in the system that the Thais can pay for everything, don’t be fooled. If they can invest Billions on sinking airports, they can pay for your visa including your travel expenses to go and get it. It is corruption that is eating into your proper pay, never forget that.

The reason that ajarn.com is so hot now is because there are people that are looking ahead, and if you check most of the names of the contacts are non Thai. The swarm of ad’s that will hit around the end of April... well that is when the fun really starts.

No joke here folks, this is not going to be a regular hiring season, for once teacher will have the upper hand.

Your non B visa takes 1 day however unless things have changed plan a trip. That need to be done before your work permit.

Work permit processing takes no more than 5 working days 7 if they are very busy, and that should be in place before you start. If they say we will get it after you start, simply say no thanks and move on, remember the police will be out and I am sure the inside of a jail is not your idea of fun in Thailand.

[anyonefortennis]

no hw, maybe in BKK but out here in the sticks I canna see it myself, the normal rules of supply and demand just will not apply.

We're seeing it already with government schools lowering the requirements to associate degree, I believe this is the step taken just before they change from native to non-native speaker. 

So rather than employing native speakers at say 40,000 the schools will employ non-native speakers for 15,000 and because all the schools are in the same position if the parents kick-off they'll just say that there are no native speakers left alive, anywhere - and because we're out in the sticks the local yocals wont know any better.

So, if you're outside of Bangkok and surrounding provinces, my advice would be do not sit and wait for the 40-50,000k a month jobs to start rolling in come May, it ain't gonna happen. 

Plus with so many schools now recruiting through the likes of Media Kids (200 f8cking teachers a time) and the special TEFL International 5 month "Thai Adventure" bollocks I canna really see any change in wage levels for a long time to come - lets hope I'm well wrong.

[Mods-Rockers]

Unfortunately AFT I suspect that you have hit the nail dead center on the head. The schools dont seem to like doing tha paperwork and now the vetting to ensure that the teachers paper is kosher, the agency will do it for them but at a premium. the only problem is that the school does not pay the premium, the teacher does by way of lower wages. the school no doubt pay the agencies in the region of 40k/mont but you can bet the teacher would be lucky to see 75% of that!

[no homework today]

Yes no doubt outside of Bangkok the standards are not the same, and as the cost of living is less then a lower wage can be worth the same there. All I am saying is don’t fall to false promises because I am sure they will be coming in by the truck full. The rules of supply and demand are universal meaning as much as the Thais will try to get around it, it wont work. There is still about a month to go before it gets to be crunch time in the market.

Take a look at some of the things outside of the teaching world, and you can see one misjudgment after another with similar results. The 30% issue for companies doing business in Thailand. That went over like a lead balloon and saw a 15% drop in the stock market. There is one after another. So there is not a big need to be a nice guy here as it will only burn you.

“Excuse me my friend, would you mind taking this kilo of cocaine across the border for me, I will meet you on the other side.”

There are two different parts of the Thai government here and the teachers are in the middle. From what I have seen marriages between parts of the Thai government don’t work. The last attempt was labor and immigration. Egos, procedures and possible loss of face don’t let it happen. This is one time not to think like a Thai.

[RobRoy]

Lets try a change of perspective....not my opinion, but lets look at things from the Thai side of things.  Once again, not my opinion, thoughts or beliefs, but lets try and look at the "system" from their point of view.  Damn, I don't even know where to start...and most of these I've seen first hand.

A school hires a teacher, goes thru all the WP and visa shit and then the teacher decides to do a runner.

A school hires a white skinned dude to teach as well as other duties, like greeting parents...the white skinned dude bitches, while the NNS does it with a smile..who would you want to hire?

Qualifications:  My wife is a NNS with 14 years experience teaching ESL.   My degree is in computer science.  I earn farang money teaching English and she does private lessons because the money at schools suck so bad.  Whats up with the qualifications thing?  Who is better qualified and easier to manage?

And thats the bottom line...as long as you're white, breathing and know how to speak a sentence without saying the "F" word, you passed the interview for 80% of schools here.  Until Thai GOVERNMENT schools across the country start inforcing standards for teachers, 30-35K will be the average.   It won't be until the government subsidises teachers salaries to a greater degree that the salaries will increase.

I would be willing to bet that things are going to get worse (more contact hours, more BS activities) before it gets better. 

But what the f do I know?

[no homework today]

No doubt you have some valid points be they are just situations based on personal choice.  This however is caused by the Thai’s own doing. When they decided to do the 90 day max stay on tourist visas, that effectively changed the market. That started October and most of the teachers were in place for the second semester. Now we are starting fresh and like most Thai schools unless you really know how to or want to there is a brand new crop of teachers every year. My guess is less than 10% of the teachers work at the same school for more than one year. There are only a few schools mostly with EP programs that will want to keep their teachers. So the situation is Thai time works against the Thais this time, so they need to be doing their hiring now and not after the annual water and powder bath of mid April.

I have heard second hand rumors from some saying that some schools were planning to hire teachers for only part of a semester so they could work before their 90 day tourist visa was up. I think only a fool would want to spend what limited time he or she has in Thailand standing in front of screaming Thai students knowing that if they are busted they will spend some time in jail.

Let us not forget the non Thai agencies that can’t produce work permits. The contracts they have with the schools will need to be renegotiated so the schools will and not might provide the necessary visas and work permits. If they can’t or don’t well see the paragraph above. If you think the agency can or will protect you, think again.

I agree with you 100% things will get worse before they get better. The schools will do their best to convince you to stay saying things are or will be OK. My first teaching job was a direct hire. When I went to the labor department with the schools Thai liaison, he had a very difficult time because one document was slightly out of order (the date format was not the same day, month, year vs month, day, year). It resulted in the need to get a new document with the format corrected, they would not accept a remarking and initialing. Bottom line is the schools must kiss just as much ass as we do to get the permits and visas, so promises are hollow at best. Remember, The Ministry of Education is not the labor department, and it is also not Immigration. Just don’t be taken in with false promises, I really don’t want to read about teachers in jail again. There are plenty of Thais out there looking to make face by arresting teachers who are not legal or have fake degree documents.  Bottom line if the visa and work permit is not in your hand and you are standing in front of a class........

All of this will simply drive the wages up after a short I don’t want to from the Thais reality will set it. As I do understand your point from a Thai point of view, it does not matter much when it comes to who risks going to jail and who will simply just look for another teacher if one goes to jail. Again this is not a regular hiring season, teachers are in the spotlight and under a magnifying glass. If you have a real degree then don’t be afraid to ask for a fair wage for your hard hours in getting that degree. The Thais will have little choice but to pay. No doubt it was the teachers with fake degrees that contributed to the low wages because they did not want to make waves and settled for the substandard and now standard low pay. If the Thais want quality, they must pay for it the same as everyone else.

[ajarnnormal]

Unfortunately all the statements written are correct and the non native speaker syndrome rears it's ugly head once again. While they continue to work for a low wage we have to sift out the better jobs with better wages. I think if you find one stick with it now until the dust has settled once again if you intend to stay in Thailand. Let's face it there is not much competition for work and maybe a bit of competition for better jobs would be a good thing. that is what would happen in Europe or the States I'm sure. you find the job you want and arrange an interview and sell yourself to the best and highest bidder. There is enough good jobs here. OK, you have the good teacher working for a low wage, that is their choice. Maybe some of the teachers should ask for more money if they have been at their school for a couple of terms and had no complaints.

[RobRoy]

AJ,

Exactly....you have to SIFT for jobs to get a good one here.  They just don't magically show up on ajarn, you have to work to find them.

[RobRoy]

NoHWTDay,

I also agree the change in visa regs are going to dramatically change things.  Those of us who can be employed without any problems are going to be FAR more valuable than teachers on a tourist visa.  But I don't think anything will change until about Oct of this year....this upcoming semester, the schools will be doing the same thing until they realize that they can keep a teacher for more than 2-3 months and come the end of next semester, they will be begging for teachers that are properly papered.   Then I'm betting the pay will go up.  But its just my bet, I always sucked at playing stocks!

Perhaps we should start a pool on when the salary situation changes for the better....my guess 1 Nov 2007!

[snottgoblin]

RobRoy.
         You have the same thoughts as me ,my projected date for fecal matter to encounter the fan was October 2007.

Agreed one has to sift the jobs to find the decent ones, good information for the newbees amongst us I think.Take note newbees.

Myself I am indeed gainfully employed and no gripes and have been so for many a year,we or I certainly managed very well prior to the conception and birth of sites like ajarn.com and prior to that Daves esl cafe.

The Nation,The Bangkok Post and indeed word of mouth with a little bit of door knocking always kept me in ample funds with teaching.

In all my years here I have only taught in language schols for a total of 6 months (two 3 months stints) whilst waitng for the positions I had contracted for to become available as international school academic years are different to the Thai school academic year.

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.,

We real teachers will have our hour .