Topic: Schools Putting Teachers in Harm´s Way

[SittingDuck]

I am at a major government school in Bangkok, with a large EP.  We have recently been told by the director, who is largely seen as singlehandedly responsible for turning what was a great program into a real mess, that teachers with no degrees or fake degrees who have been in Thailand since June 2003 are safe from any legal action.  As a result, the 9 or 10 teachers here who started there jobs by presenting fake degrees (that have been exposed as such by past and current employees in an embarrasing dogfight that is now typical of this place), have been told to stay put and that they have nothing to worry about.  Of course, this leaves the school sitting pretty and us as sitting ducks, as far as I see it.  Does anyone know anything about this law?  I am worried the director, in an effort to save face yet again and not lose half his teaching staff and face parental complaints, is lying to us to keep us here.  Then, since we have been reported to immigration police several times by current colleagues and people who have left, when the cops show up we are the ones left as sitting ducks and the school just says they had no idea.  We get carted off to jail or deported, families and friends left behind, and the school can say to parents that the foreigners lied to us, and abdicate any blame for the situation.  Any thoughts?  Anyone know of this law?  Are we up shit creek here just waiting for trouble?

[Nemesis]

I can't ever think of how a fake degree would be ok. No degree, maybe, but fake degree? Forget it.

[snottgoblin]

Agreed no degree a pardonable offence so to speak .

Fake degre equals fraud , theft regarding salary paid and possibly the borrowing of an original document unknown to the rightful nameholder .

There is the chance that the original document holder may be accused of complicty and wrongly prosecuted .

Degrees do not make for experience in any profession , however theft and fruad are uneversally wrong .
 
 

[los_teacher]

I'm going to have to sound off here as well.

1) No Degree.  No harm, no foul.  Many government schools hire teachers without a degree. 

2) Fake Degree.  Prosecution is deserved.  It is not the school's fault that a teacher presented a fake degree - even if they knew about it.  The school may be guilty of significant ethics violations and negligence, but on the criminality scale this is much less serious than forgery and fraud.  I'd recommend the people in this situation leave the country straight away.  Those teachers working with fake documents put themselves in harm's way.

[Mods-Rockers]

Los, I agree with you for the most part, however when it comes to a schools complicity in the fraud then they are at least equally to blame. if they knew the degree was a a fake, or if indeed, as in the case of the BKK two, the school suggested getting the fake, then the school is indeed guilty.

You seem to be suggesting that, even when the schools know a fraud is being committed they should be free of conspiracy charges! hardly fair, dont you think? Or could it be that you know a school that does indeed knowingly employ those using fake paper and thus want to protect that school?

[SittingDuck]

I am a little confused.  I mean that the school has gotten us work permits with our fake degrees and now, the degrees being revealed as frauds, has told us no problem.  I am married to a Thai, and worried about being booted from Thailand, but the school director has basically said do your work and no harm will come.  How can a government school have someone with no degree with the current rules?  And wouldn´t it be very suspicious if they once got us work permits with a degree then go back and try to get us one without?

[Mods-Rockers]

Duck, I am no expert on this but you appear to be up shit creek with your present position. If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a new position and looking without using the fake, reading the thread on another forum with representatives from the MOE it seems that the degree is not absolutely an imperitive. with the fake you put yourself at too much risk and I for one would never believe what your director says unless he can back it up with some sort of legal paperwork!

[los_teacher]

Good point M-R.  Please allow me to state my opinion more fully (and more clearly I hope).  I think that the case of 'being told to get a fake degree' is very different from 'being aware or suspecting that a degree may be fake'. 

In the first case it is conspiracy to commit fraud and forgery and school administrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.  This kind of behavior by a school admin is heinous and unacceptable.  I wouldn't work at any institution that engages in this kind of practice.

In the second case it is not so clear cut.  I've been trying to do some degree verification lately for job applicants, and it is very difficult to do given privacy laws in western countries.  There are procedures in place where information may be given but the applicant needs to contact the university and provide written permission for this information to be disclosed.  The fact is that I haven't been able to verify a single degree just using the internet.  Due to the logistical difficulties of degree verification a school may suspect that a degree is fake but not be able to prove it.  If they have made a reasonable effort at verification but have come up short then I don't think they should be party to any sort of conspiracy charge.

It appears that this case is kind of in the middle.  The school apparently 'knows' the documents are fake.  Conspiracy to commit forgery - no.  Conspiracy to commit fraud - yes.  They should be prosecuted.  Probably they will be able to worm their way out of any legal situation due to plausible deniability, but they are guilty nonetheless.

In the end I believe that the person presenting fake documents is committing the greatest crime.  People like this may be harming the educational opportunities of the students.  Moreover, these people are giving honest teachers a bad reputation and making our lives more difficult as the Thai government struggles to find ways to stop this practice from happening.

Sorry for your situation sitting duck.  I don't know what to tell you, but it sounds like you are in a right pickle and may be setting yourself up for a very serious situation.  I wouldn't believe the boss.  He may have friends at MOE and MOI, and he may have the ability to protect you and the others in your situation, but I wouldn't depend on that.

[Mods-Rockers]

In the second case it is not so clear cut.  I've been trying to do some degree verification lately for job applicants, and it is very difficult to do given privacy laws in western countries.  There are procedures in place where information may be given but the applicant needs to contact the university and provide written permission for this information to be disclosed.  The fact is that I haven't been able to verify a single degree just using the internet.  Due to the logistical difficulties of degree verification a school may suspect that a degree is fake but not be able to prove it.  If they have made a reasonable effort at verification but have come up short then I don't think they should be party to any sort of conspiracy charge.

“reasonable effort at verification” this is the crux of the matter, well for starters if there is a suspicion that the paper is fake, what’s to stop you getting the applicant to write to the university for confirmation of the degree paperwork but insist that the reply be sent directly to the school! Yes this may entail some expense for the applicant but if he is honest and really wants the position then surely its money well spent? Of course if the paper is hooky then having asked for the confirmation its entirely probable that you will never hear from the applicant again.

As an aside, the method I have used to get confirmation from western uni’s regarding a degrees veracity was simply to email them and attach a jpeg of the degree, and then just ask if the jpeg is kosher. Its best to have an official email address for this purpose as universities are more likely to reply to x@y.ac.th than to x@hotmail.com

[los_teacher]

Google image search has helped in what I would call a 'reasonable effort'.  But I recognize that just because a degree looks real does not guarantee that it is.

There should be a simpler way to verify degrees in my opinion.  What the heck is so private about getting a degree anyway? 

Before anyone is hired at my school they must provide a degree certificate and transcript.  Most folks have their degree but a surprising number don't have the transcript.  Applicants are advised to obtain the transcript before they are offered a position.

[crocodile]

"the director, in an effort to save face ". Your words SittingDuck.
"We get carted off to jail or deported". Your words again SittingDuck.
Potisarnpitayakorn is a high profile school. You know what's going to happen.
RUN. NOW.

[Andy]

If a teacher gives a fakey degree to the admin, he's defraudin' the school admin. If the school knowingly hires someone with a fakey then they're defraudin' the students. What worse, defraudin' the students or defraudin' your boss man? The school is just as culpable as the teacher for the fakey.

Peace Out!

[los_teacher]

Andy - are you suggesting that a 'teacher' has no responsibility to the students?  Only the school can actually fraud the students?  That's just nonsense.  Teachers and schools that engage in this crap should be horsewhipped, tarred and feathered.

[Andy]

Exactly, dude. Teachers can defraud students and they do when they use a fake degree, but if the school knows it's a fakey and sit on their hands, they are just as guilty. If you're gonna string up the teacher in that case, string up the school alongside him.

[los_teacher]

ahh - forums.   so easy to misunderstand or be misunderstood....

Unfortunately it is easy to prove fraud on the teacher's part and very difficult to do so against the  school.  And the school has deeper pockets with which to persuade various members of the legal system.

[RobRoy]

Can you imagine the day ..........

A Thai government school director is front of a judge and openly admits he/she hired a farang with a degree he/she knew was fake.

Oh, on a side note...was watching BBC while typing this...a Brit could get 75 years in prison for spray painting a picture of the king black.  Insulting the King.

[sabai_sabai]

Can you imagine the day ..........

A Thai government school director is front of a judge and openly admits he/she hired a farang with a degree he/she knew was fake.

Yeah, the Thai National Anthem would sooner be changed than that happening.

Oh, on a side note...was watching BBC while typing this...a Brit could get 75 years in prison for spray painting a picture of the king black.  Insulting the King.

Yeah, but defacing the portrait was pretty stupid.  He might get a Royal pardon and deported, especially since Thailand is looking more like a banana republic with each passing news story.

[freedom fighter]

Am I the only one here who thinks you should have already packed your bags and headed for the border?!

I personally think this whole degree lark is typical SE Asia bull****.  I have two degrees and they are utterly irrelevant to my teaching ability but thats another matter.  (I'm still waiting for the day when my knowledge of Saxon and Angle settlers will crop up in class.)

Regardless of whether you are defrauding schools and students and whether the school is also culpable you are in a country with a right wing military government, where ministries and authorities are trying to prove they are doing their job well.  They will not hesitate to make a high profile example of you.  I hate to panic you but... START TO PANIC! 

Start packing and get the hell out of Dodge before they decide to throw you to the lions.

Anyone think I'm being paranoid?

[sabai_sabai]

Am I the only one here who thinks you should have already packed your bags and headed for the border?!

I personally think this whole degree lark is typical SE Asia bull****.  I have two degrees and they are utterly irrelevant to my teaching ability but thats another matter.  (I'm still waiting for the day when my knowledge of Saxon and Angle settlers will crop up in class.)

Regardless of whether you are defrauding schools and students and whether the school is also culpable you are in a country with a right wing military government, where ministries and authorities are trying to prove they are doing their job well.  They will not hesitate to make a high profile example of you.  I hate to panic you but... START TO PANIC! 

Start packing and get the hell out of Dodge before they decide to throw you to the lions.

Anyone think I'm being paranoid?

I do think that the current crackdown is A Very Bad Sign. 

If they wanted to get rid of people with fakes, a little advance warning would have flushed out a few.  (Most would have said TiT and stayed, though.)  Teachers with fake degrees are easy targets for the government: most are not particularly wealthy and would not be thought to be well-connected.  The fact that this  coincides with measures to curb foreign investment says that foreigners are less than welcome here.

I'm not packing up yet.  But I think that in this political climate, breaking any law, no matter how small or silly could end up with far more serious consequences than we are used to seeing. 

[bomha]

"the director, in an effort to save face ". Your words SittingDuck.
"We get carted off to jail or deported". Your words again SittingDuck.
Potisarnpitayakorn is a high profile school. You know what's going to happen.
RUN. NOW.

Pot-shit-korn school is a great example.  Two farang (who aparently were told to get fake degrees by Pot'shitty-korn) were actually put in prison, and the korn is still shitty over at the school.  Run like hell, do not pass go or even stop to collect your pay packet (wich they will not give you).

[Good2b-happy]

This maybe totaly of thread but some "schools" actualy encourage and supply false documentation. A director of foriegn studies, an Englishman, at a school I worked for told me I required another refference to prove I had 3 years teaching experience at primary level. So he went to his computer and printed of a refference from a non existent school which he claimed was registered by the MOE and happily signed the said refference, with a ficticous name, right in front of me! The fact he claims to have a Ph.D. as well only sums him up. I thought Englishmen were honest?

[anyonefortennis]

The fact he claims to have a Ph.D. as well only sums him up. I thought Englishmen were honest?

Only those from the northwest of England, never trust a bloody southern softie.........

[fortuneguy]

Fake degree - get out while the going is good. Not moralising just advising for your own safety.

I sympathise with your plight as it seems that NO QUALIFICATION MAY BE NEEDED TO TEACH ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE UNDER THAI LAW.  Refer to article by some bod or other on Ajarn.com.  Thus, teachers who ordinarily are perfectly entitled to seek employment have to lie in order to just go about what everbody has to do in life, ie, keep a roof over their heads and put food on the table.

The more I learn about this culture the more it stinks.  They can shove their collective face up their collective ass, and from now on I aim to help see it is done.

To reiterate though you are not in a healthy position.

[Andy]

If you gotta lie in order to put a roof over your head and food on the table in Thailand, then you're in the wrong place to begin with. Get the fluke out of Thailand, dude.

[fortuneguy]

Stated simply: people who may after all be legally entitled to seek employment as a teacher are deemed to be committing a crime. They have 2 options; to work illegally on a tourist visa, or lie about their qualifications and work the system. Nobody likes an uneven playing field,  and let's not forget 2 teachers ended up in chokey all because of this.

Although I have all the necessary qualifications for a work permit/teachers licence, and 5 years teaching experience I do not consider myself suitably qualified to teach children, as I do not have recognised teacher status in the UK (my country of birth).  Most are winging it really.

I don't condone fakes, but it's also difficult to condemn people when one considers the absurdity of the system.

Presumably, you would want me to get the fluke out too!  Have you been taking lessons from the junta Andy ?

[Thighlander]

..........
a side note...was watching BBC while typing this...a Brit could get 75 years in prison for spray painting a picture of the king black.  Insulting the King.

Actually, the guy is a 56 yo Swiss man (for once, not a Brit).  His trial was to start on 12 March.  The media was asked not to cover it, as it would only further insult The Family.  5 counts at 3-15 years, with the prosecutors seeking the max; 5 x 15=75 years.

Furthermore, let me address the fakees here:  prisons in America are full of people, who comitted crimes for "their children's sake."  Lack of family planning on your part; does not constitute an emergency on the part of the Thai Justice system.  If you comitted forgery or submitted false docs in the US or "Great" Britain; you would be in trouble there, also. I have no sympathy for you.  My advice would be to take the eyeballs out of the fish heads and trade them for some smokes.

[fortuneguy]

Thighlander. Well it's not so much that I disagree with the points you make, so much as your delivery. I'm very suspicious of broad sword morality which ignores the complexity of the matter.  You do little or nothing to take all the matters raised and discuss them in a fair way. I can't reword my previous postings again as I see nothing that should not be easily understood. Of course fakes are wrong (who is disagreeing/ who exactly are you arguing with?). What about the fact that it's only the mis-application of rules that causes people bother in the first place.  Like many posters I cannot see that you have any idea of the 'gaminess' involved here- it's a racket pure and simple.

[RobRoy]

To me, its simple.....use fake docs and its all on your own head.  There might be many reasons to do it, but there are also many schools that will hire you with no docs.  Sure your pay might be less, but its, in my opinion, better than being locked up.  Use fakes and take the risk or be legal.  I prefer legal.

[fortuneguy]

Robroy. In order to get a work permit to teach in Thailand I thought you had to supply a degree and tefl certificate.  Surely the only other option is to work illegally on a tourist visa. Can you clarify?

[los_teacher]

As I understand it, this is the current law

1) A degree is not required for a work permit if you work at a language school - a TEFL cert is enough

2) A degree is not required for a work permit if you work for a government school and teach English - a TEFL cert is enough

3) A TEFL cert is not required for a work permit if you work at a private school as long as you have a degree

4) None of these laws are uniformly applied throughout Thailand so nobody really knows what the laws are.

This information was picked up over the years by reading lots of forums.  I could very well be wrong.  In fact there was an interview last week in Chiang Mai with a representative from the MoE who indicated that a degree isn't a requirement for a work permit for any position below university-level.

[RobRoy]

Concur Los....worked with two teachers in the past without ANY degree or TEFL at a government school. Reading the requirements for getting a WP at a government school it became clear there is NO required docs.   And yes, I do have a copy of the requirements here at home if you want me to scan them and post it.  For a private school, you must have at teachers license which means a degree or TEFL or both.

Been there and seen it with my own eye...I'm blind in the other....after working in a private school jumping thru all the f-ing paperwork hoops, going to a government school made the paperwork disappear.  Renewed my WP and my visa all in one day.

[fortuneguy]

Thanks Robroy- that's a gem.  I never knew that and I'm betting most others didn't either. Egg on the face most of all to  the teacher sites that have not put this across (assuming they haven't of course). 

Now quite why it should be ok to be able to teach in a gov. school in Thailand, but not in any other defies any explanation. You'd have thought it would be the other way round.

What a bloody farce !!!

[bomha]

I thought that the discussion on ajarn forum net, after the man from SEE interviewed some local MoE officials, pointed out the big differences between Bangkok and up=country.  I think there are no rules, no clear rules, no real laws, or no definate guidelines that apply everywhere.  There are so many exceptions to the rule that they disprove the rule.  It is up to local discretion.  It is up to the school owner or director, his connections with the authorities, and the behaviour of each teacher.