Topic: Schools Putting Teachers in Harm´s Way

[SittingDuck]

I am at a major government school in Bangkok, with a large EP.  We have recently been told by the director, who is largely seen as singlehandedly responsible for turning what was a great program into a real mess, that teachers with no degrees or fake degrees who have been in Thailand since June 2003 are safe from any legal action.  As a result, the 9 or 10 teachers here who started there jobs by presenting fake degrees (that have been exposed as such by past and current employees in an embarrasing dogfight that is now typical of this place), have been told to stay put and that they have nothing to worry about.  Of course, this leaves the school sitting pretty and us as sitting ducks, as far as I see it.  Does anyone know anything about this law?  I am worried the director, in an effort to save face yet again and not lose half his teaching staff and face parental complaints, is lying to us to keep us here.  Then, since we have been reported to immigration police several times by current colleagues and people who have left, when the cops show up we are the ones left as sitting ducks and the school just says they had no idea.  We get carted off to jail or deported, families and friends left behind, and the school can say to parents that the foreigners lied to us, and abdicate any blame for the situation.  Any thoughts?  Anyone know of this law?  Are we up shit creek here just waiting for trouble?

[Nemesis]

I can't ever think of how a fake degree would be ok. No degree, maybe, but fake degree? Forget it.

[snottgoblin]

Agreed no degree a pardonable offence so to speak .

Fake degre equals fraud , theft regarding salary paid and possibly the borrowing of an original document unknown to the rightful nameholder .

There is the chance that the original document holder may be accused of complicty and wrongly prosecuted .

Degrees do not make for experience in any profession , however theft and fruad are uneversally wrong .
 
 

[los_teacher]

I'm going to have to sound off here as well.

1) No Degree.  No harm, no foul.  Many government schools hire teachers without a degree. 

2) Fake Degree.  Prosecution is deserved.  It is not the school's fault that a teacher presented a fake degree - even if they knew about it.  The school may be guilty of significant ethics violations and negligence, but on the criminality scale this is much less serious than forgery and fraud.  I'd recommend the people in this situation leave the country straight away.  Those teachers working with fake documents put themselves in harm's way.

[Mods-Rockers]

Los, I agree with you for the most part, however when it comes to a schools complicity in the fraud then they are at least equally to blame. if they knew the degree was a a fake, or if indeed, as in the case of the BKK two, the school suggested getting the fake, then the school is indeed guilty.

You seem to be suggesting that, even when the schools know a fraud is being committed they should be free of conspiracy charges! hardly fair, dont you think? Or could it be that you know a school that does indeed knowingly employ those using fake paper and thus want to protect that school?

[SittingDuck]

I am a little confused.  I mean that the school has gotten us work permits with our fake degrees and now, the degrees being revealed as frauds, has told us no problem.  I am married to a Thai, and worried about being booted from Thailand, but the school director has basically said do your work and no harm will come.  How can a government school have someone with no degree with the current rules?  And wouldn´t it be very suspicious if they once got us work permits with a degree then go back and try to get us one without?

[Mods-Rockers]

Duck, I am no expert on this but you appear to be up shit creek with your present position. If I were in your shoes I would be looking for a new position and looking without using the fake, reading the thread on another forum with representatives from the MOE it seems that the degree is not absolutely an imperitive. with the fake you put yourself at too much risk and I for one would never believe what your director says unless he can back it up with some sort of legal paperwork!

[los_teacher]

Good point M-R.  Please allow me to state my opinion more fully (and more clearly I hope).  I think that the case of 'being told to get a fake degree' is very different from 'being aware or suspecting that a degree may be fake'. 

In the first case it is conspiracy to commit fraud and forgery and school administrators should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.  This kind of behavior by a school admin is heinous and unacceptable.  I wouldn't work at any institution that engages in this kind of practice.

In the second case it is not so clear cut.  I've been trying to do some degree verification lately for job applicants, and it is very difficult to do given privacy laws in western countries.  There are procedures in place where information may be given but the applicant needs to contact the university and provide written permission for this information to be disclosed.  The fact is that I haven't been able to verify a single degree just using the internet.  Due to the logistical difficulties of degree verification a school may suspect that a degree is fake but not be able to prove it.  If they have made a reasonable effort at verification but have come up short then I don't think they should be party to any sort of conspiracy charge.

It appears that this case is kind of in the middle.  The school apparently 'knows' the documents are fake.  Conspiracy to commit forgery - no.  Conspiracy to commit fraud - yes.  They should be prosecuted.  Probably they will be able to worm their way out of any legal situation due to plausible deniability, but they are guilty nonetheless.

In the end I believe that the person presenting fake documents is committing the greatest crime.  People like this may be harming the educational opportunities of the students.  Moreover, these people are giving honest teachers a bad reputation and making our lives more difficult as the Thai government struggles to find ways to stop this practice from happening.

Sorry for your situation sitting duck.  I don't know what to tell you, but it sounds like you are in a right pickle and may be setting yourself up for a very serious situation.  I wouldn't believe the boss.  He may have friends at MOE and MOI, and he may have the ability to protect you and the others in your situation, but I wouldn't depend on that.

[Mods-Rockers]

In the second case it is not so clear cut.  I've been trying to do some degree verification lately for job applicants, and it is very difficult to do given privacy laws in western countries.  There are procedures in place where information may be given but the applicant needs to contact the university and provide written permission for this information to be disclosed.  The fact is that I haven't been able to verify a single degree just using the internet.  Due to the logistical difficulties of degree verification a school may suspect that a degree is fake but not be able to prove it.  If they have made a reasonable effort at verification but have come up short then I don't think they should be party to any sort of conspiracy charge.

“reasonable effort at verification” this is the crux of the matter, well for starters if there is a suspicion that the paper is fake, what’s to stop you getting the applicant to write to the university for confirmation of the degree paperwork but insist that the reply be sent directly to the school! Yes this may entail some expense for the applicant but if he is honest and really wants the position then surely its money well spent? Of course if the paper is hooky then having asked for the confirmation its entirely probable that you will never hear from the applicant again.

As an aside, the method I have used to get confirmation from western uni’s regarding a degrees veracity was simply to email them and attach a jpeg of the degree, and then just ask if the jpeg is kosher. Its best to have an official email address for this purpose as universities are more likely to reply to x@y.ac.th than to x@hotmail.com

[los_teacher]

Google image search has helped in what I would call a 'reasonable effort'.  But I recognize that just because a degree looks real does not guarantee that it is.

There should be a simpler way to verify degrees in my opinion.  What the heck is so private about getting a degree anyway? 

Before anyone is hired at my school they must provide a degree certificate and transcript.  Most folks have their degree but a surprising number don't have the transcript.  Applicants are advised to obtain the transcript before they are offered a position.

[crocodile]

"the director, in an effort to save face ". Your words SittingDuck.
"We get carted off to jail or deported". Your words again SittingDuck.
Potisarnpitayakorn is a high profile school. You know what's going to happen.
RUN. NOW.

[Andy]

If a teacher gives a fakey degree to the admin, he's defraudin' the school admin. If the school knowingly hires someone with a fakey then they're defraudin' the students. What worse, defraudin' the students or defraudin' your boss man? The school is just as culpable as the teacher for the fakey.

Peace Out!

[los_teacher]

Andy - are you suggesting that a 'teacher' has no responsibility to the students?  Only the school can actually fraud the students?  That's just nonsense.  Teachers and schools that engage in this crap should be horsewhipped, tarred and feathered.

[Andy]

Exactly, dude. Teachers can defraud students and they do when they use a fake degree, but if the school knows it's a fakey and sit on their hands, they are just as guilty. If you're gonna string up the teacher in that case, string up the school alongside him.

[los_teacher]

ahh - forums.   so easy to misunderstand or be misunderstood....

Unfortunately it is easy to prove fraud on the teacher's part and very difficult to do so against the  school.  And the school has deeper pockets with which to persuade various members of the legal system.