Topic: falling wages

[anyonefortennis]

Just been looking around various teaching job boards and it seems to me the wages (outside of Bangkok) are not remaining static, they're actually sliding.

It appears more schools are offering 25,000 than last year and also that more schools are hiring NN teachers than last year, or am I being paraniod?   

[westernfarang]

I agree, Phil at ajarn says best few weeks ever, but I think that salaries are falling fast, more at 25 to 35k then ever before

[RobRoy]

I agree also...seems to me 3-4 years ago it was 35-40.  NN teachers are cheaper and put up with the BS better than native speakers.

[Thighlander]

Wages have gotten lower.  Tell them to go jump into a crocodile infested, lake.

[Mods-Rockers]

Someone somewhere is making a mint out of all this, I only worked as a convo teacher for one semester in a government school and that was through an agency. The agency charged the school 6-700 baht an hour for a teacher, yet only paid us 300-350. big profits for the agency for doing very little. This might explain why that agency is in the HoS.

The school though was on a bigger scam, they received, as I understood the situation, 500 baht per student per semester from the government to hire native speakers. And if that was not enough they also charged the parents 400 baht per semester for classes with a native speaker. I taught 20 hours a week (all different classes) with an average class size of 45, that works out to:

2*20*45*900=1,620,000 baht per year income for the school per teacher.

2*20*32*700=896,000 baht per year for a farang teacher through an agency. So nearly 725,000 baht a year profit per farang per year. Directors new benz?

13*35,000=455,000 baht per year salary for a locally (non agency) recruited farang teacher, the 13 is assuming that a bonus month is paid! That’s a whopping 1,165,000 baht per teacher per year profit for the school.

Ok these figure are some 5 years out of date now, I have heard that the government does not pay the extra funds for a farang anymore (unconfirmed) though I dare say that students are more than likely charged more nowadays.

So why are we seeing an apparent drop in wages? Could it simply be GREED?

[anyonefortennis]

MR, greed is clearly a big part of it but unsurprising if you see the basic wage of a Thai admin in a gov school out in the sticks..............but that's another topic.

What I don't get right now is the gov are tightening the reg's to work here, so you'd expect that to result in a better standard of teacher (ignoring all degree v non degree arguements for now), and therefore a better wage.........right?

I think I came across the answer earlier today. I saw on ajarn that the special government project for schools is hiring 500 teachers, tefl international have got their special 'Thai Adventure' for new grads (or nearly grads) and media kids is hiring god knows how many teachers  - I guess it's these projects that we have to thank for keeping the government school / university wages so bloody low. And if companies / agencies continue to do deals with local provincial governments then I guess the wages will continue to slide as they look to maximize their profit margin.   

I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts, apart from greed and 'special projects' is there anything else keeping the salaries so bloody low? 

[Speaksoftly]

I think it's a sign that more schools will be hiring illegal workers or non-native speakers.  Or are they pretending that for 25K they're also offering a work permit?

[lone ranger]

It is clear agencies ie TI are getting the best of both worlds, they are getting the TEFL course fee from the student and a placement fee of around 30K per teacher once they have graduated from the likes of Media Kids...not a bad deal.
What TI are doing in Thailand is turning over their teachers every 4 months or 1 semester. They are also making a need by firing their teachers near the holidays so they don't pay holiday pay, they then put their new recruits into the jobs at the begining of the new term and "Bobs your uncle" it all starts again......

TI have worked out that the teachers have no option but to accept it, if they don't pay what can the teacher do with no money to take them to the labour court?

Its a sorry state of affairs but thats how TI are using the very teachers they pledge to help......Bastards!

[ajarnnormal]

Myself, I would never go to an agency to get full time work. I have used an agency to get evening Corporate work. An agency is in the business to make money and who do they make it off? You and the school. If a school takes on an agency to get their teachers then the school pays a good price for the service. there are some schools that take on staff themselves and use an agency. They use an agency mainly because they can not get the staff to fill the positions themselves. In my time teaching in Thailand it seems that the reason they can not get teachers is because they have a bad reputation or they pay low wages. i know of some government schools that try to get staff first then go to an agency at the death. There is a pool of teachers out there and it is getting smaller all the time. I am waiting to see what the next term brings as it gets closer and schools start to panic with no staff. then the wages will go up I'm sure. My advice is don't take the low paid jobs let them squirm and sweat.

[anyonefortennis]

AjN, I don't think the wages will go up the more desperate they get, afterall the money has probably already been allocated to a new Beamer or a jolly to the States 

I think we are already seeing the schools tatics, a shifting of the goalposts, I've started to notice more jobs that state "a two year associate degree".

The problem is that for every teacher who ignores the low paying job, there is one who will take it and until this changes then the wages will remain low.

If we could nuke the shitty end of the tefl course providers market the hell outta of Thailand (or the world for that matter) it would be a start, I put a large amount of the blame for low wages (world wide) in the TEFL industry well and truly at the feet of cowboy course providers who will let any old Harry take their course. As many of the course providers also place their trainees in schools after course completion things aren't going to improve until there is a shortage of tefl trainees to fill the jobs or as stated before we wipe out the cowboy course providers   

[samvimes]

Well it's up to the employers. I won't employ someone with with just a TEFL International certificate or a text and talk certificate.

I will accept a CELTA or Trinity cert though. Sorry to say I don't trust the quality of the courses that are run here.

[Mods-Rockers]

Why be sorry Sam to me its just an honest opinion that is widely held

[samvimes]

I'm sorry for the people who fork out their hard earned money for a piece of toilet paper....

[anyonefortennis]

.............and are often under the assumption that the course they are doing is held in high regard both here and overseas

[bomha]

If I were hiring in Europe, I'd value a world-known cert.  If I were hiring in Thailand, I'd value a Thai-known cert.  If I were hiring in Thailand for a top-tier international school, I would not even care about a TEFL cert.  I do not think that one four week indoctrination course is infinitely better than the average Thai four week course, but some are trash.  First, you ask for documents and second, the interview.  Third and finally, the demonstration lesson.  I would not trash an applicant merely because the applicant went to SEE or T&T but I would be doubtful about some new fly by night place I had never heard of.

I went to an agency once, for part time work, and after seeing my resume (with copies of certifications), they had me to do a grammar test.  In spite it being an American test, I did well, over 94%.  I did a good interview.  Where I earned my TEFL certificate, before I taught in Thailand for several years, was not materiel.

[ajarnnormal]

I went to an agency who shall be nameless but they are very well known. I took my documents and resume with verifications. I was then handed a form to fill in that was written with so many points of bad English I had to proofread it first. I asked who did the form and of course the girl did not know. After I had filled out and proofread the form I was then given another piece of crap which she called a mini test.I took one look at it and gave it back to her and said my goodbye and walked out. When I first came here I went to many places like that and they are still going. I have only ever agreed to do one test and that was at a school, I don't mind doing demo lessons.

I did have one agency who wanted me to do a demo as a part of a course. It was for one hour, I declined because they would not pay me the hourly rate for the lesson.

[bomha]

Back to the subject of falling wages, I do not think that ajarn.com ever had more than occasional listings from real international schools.  Most of the better jobs, I think, are offerred through the grapevine, and they do not get posted.  Do you think some school that pays 48K for a maths or science position, needs to put up a public ad that will get 200 native speakers and 500 Philppinos?  Look at Keegan's story about Chiang Rai, offerring something like 35K for a maths teacher, and they got no applications from native speakers.  They hired a Philppino at half the price.

[anyonefortennis]

Fair point, some of the international schools run their recruitment drives in the country that their exams are from (UK, US etc.) and don't advertise anywhere in Thailand.

The government schools however do appear to be pinching pennies, has the government withdrawn funding for NS teachers? A quick look down the right hand side of the jobs page on ajarn shows that no standard government school is offering over 30 and quite a few are offering between 25-15k.

It seems that rather than maintain (improve) the standard and offer a little more schools are more interested in lowering the required quals (associate degrees and Dips seem to be appearing more and more often in job ads) and offering a little less, and bugger the standards.

I'm a little lost, I thought that it was required that all teachers must have a B.ed or a degree + TEFL cert, it now appears that a assoc degree or dip will suffice, perhaps they'll start excepting life time degrees, or relatives of degree holders. So just who makes up the rules, MOL, MOE, MUA, AUA..........or school directors?

[Mods-Rockers]

That’s part of the problem I believe, they all make rules, and they are more often than not, very contradictory! Until the departments that matter start working together (will that ever happen?) I doubt we will see any improvement, but we will see a decline in the already fragile education attained by students.

[bomha]

I'm a little lost, I thought that it was required that all teachers must have a B.ed or a degree + TEFL cert, it now appears that a assoc degree or dip will suffice, perhaps they'll start excepting life time degrees, or relatives of degree holders. So just who makes up the rules, MOL, MOE, MUA, AUA..........or school directors?

I am one of the cynics who think that Thailand has no laws for foreign teachers.  No law, no regulation.  Just whatever whim the local guy or gal thinks of today.  Who really said you had to have a B.Ed. etc?  Sally Sasquatch?  Did she really actually na ayutthaya say that it was for sure, certainly?  But then Khun Other Person said something different. 

I think the only guys and gals who make over 40K are in Bangkok, they have been there for more than four years, and they have probably stayed at the same school most of that time.  And it is not a Hall of Shame school.  I think the newbies still go long times being illegal, labouring away at crap schools.

Education standards are maintained by the Ministry of Land Transport.  If you have a driving license, you can teach.

[morecurious]

Thats just crazy.  TI has a bunch of courses all over.  When I wanted to work in Spain they got me lots of job leads and decent pay.  Every job I applied for overseas has said TI was fine and some schools say it is better than celta is u r doing kids or big classes.  I decided to stay in Thailand but shitting on TI is pretty stupid if you dunno what u r talking about.

[crocodile]

I copy and paste a job from Ajarn. Is this a joke, or do they really think they will get someone who knows what he is doing for this price?

"Two teachers required . One to teach maths and one to teach science to Matayom 1--5 levels.
max 20 hours a week teaching
free work permit and visa
minimum one year contract
teach in English Programme
Start 1st. May 2006
Full support material
15,000 baht to start"

[Pavlovsdog]

^ I notice that this ad does NOT specify 'Native English Speaker'.  15K is a bit low for a Filipina, but they will probably be able to get a couple who are desperate for a job anyway.

[Thai Me Up]

SV,
I'm not sure my TEFL certificate is toilet paper, but I did suffer denigrating comments during one language school interview that my TEFL course didn't fulfill the school's 120-hour requirement.  When I went on to explain that I had completed 180 days of observed student teaching in California - that's DAYS, not HOURS - and had worked for more than a year at graduate school to earn a linguistics minor with emphasis in second language acquisition, the response was, "But your TEFL course wasn't 120 hours..."

As for the CELTA-certified teacher who gave me a tour of this language school (rhymes with "gay-ewe-ay"), he was inarticulate with a poor command of English:  "Like, this place is, like, really cool with tonsa stuff, that, like, anyone can use, like, just take it, y'know, and, like, you bring it back, y'know..."

[certified]

Low Wages are because the Thais are hiring IDIOTS who are frauds and pathetic liars. They hold down wages for an actual teacher here and cheapon the whole lot.

[anyonefortennis]

And there was me thinking that the low wages were due to money being filtered into the Directors "New Benz Fund".

I think, as was pointed out to me by Hero before, that oftern the schools are actually encouraging people to become frauds and liars.

There are many factors that determine the wage of teachers, not least supply and demand, and lets not forget our noble profession is not known for remarkable wages in any country, so we certainly should expected sky high wages for teaching in a government school in a developing country.

Sure there are some idiots teaching over here, but you meet idiots every day in every walk of life, even on internet forums............

[hero]

I'd say that in my experience there are no more or fewer teachers who aren't "actual teachers"  teaching here than before - I won't use the term "IDIOTS" because it's pretty subjective and IME idiots come from all walks of life, including "actual teachers"!  The problem is that everybody now faces difficulties getting legal employment status, people are more likely in this climate to be forced to come clean about their qualifications and experience.

The knock-on effect is that schools are now more aware of what credentials teachers offer.  Far from raising standards by offering better packages for "actual teachers" they take the view that all foreign teachers are pretty much a necessary evil to be used and abused as they wish.

A few years ago, pretty much anybody could claim to have any qualifications they liked - they could easily get a visa and schools had no incentive to ask any questions.  Schools simply turned a blind eye.  These days the schools are more diligent in checking qualifications, finding out that more and more don't have any relevant teaching qualifications and using it their own advantage.

Schools simply can't or won't pay more money for better quality teachers.

[RobRoy]

Here's a thought..

Could it be that there are fewer "experienced" teachers.  By experienced I mean at least 4-5 years teaching in Thailand, with proper creds, good references and minty fresh breath?  I've seen a few teaching positions for over 50K and some for over 60k publicly advertised.  Perhaps the long term teachers here are used to easy pickings as far as salary and benefits and now that many schools are contributing to the Benz fund finding a good job requires diligience, networking, committment and honesty, not just a MBA in basketweaving from the University of Language in Bangladesh and a quick slash at ajarn.com.  Perhaps we as teachers need to work a little harder to laugh at the silly offers and jump at the potentially great jobs.   And by laughing at the silly offers and jumping at the good schools over time even the "slower" schools will understand what they need to do in order to recruit quality teachers.

Then again, I believe the new government will increase farang salaries by 200% for work at government schools and by 100% for private schools.  But the biggest increase will be the 500% increase for teachers in the south after one year.

[Nemesis]

RobRoy: What a dreamer you are, wish I could dream as much.
 

Wages ain't goin' up. It's a global TEFL reality. The pie is increasing but the number of pie eaters keeps going up even more.

[RobRoy]

Thanks for waking me up Nemesis.......Its incredible to see EP teaching jobs offered for not much more money than what can be made at some of the bigger government schools here.  Perhaps when we can parade our new TL's around the pay will change. 

Do you suppose the MOE would give me a refund if I decided to move to another country? 

[hero]

Do you suppose the MOE would give me a refund if I decided to move to another country?

[Michaelphet]

Can anybody tell me. for certain, not just guessing, how much does a school get for a qualified teacher of English from the government, per month?   Is that supposed to be paid to the teacher?   If this amount is not paid, what can I do?   Do you have a reference as to where I can see the figure written on an official Thai document?   Thanks.

[beenaroundawhile01]

I work for a goverment school. whilst i can't say how much a school gets payed per teacher, if that is the case. i do know that the school recieves a payment from the goverment for running an english or mini english program. The parents of the student often pick up the tab for the native english speaker in the class 2 or 3 times a week. if you are at a goverment school working for an agency they are robbing you and the school blind. this is a great loop hole for many schools, they do not have to indure the cost of work permits and such like and an agency will not endure such costs either. do your self a favour, if you are a qualified teacher, find your self a good school, not private and they will make sure every thing is above board. if you aren't qualified, you knew the risks when you came,so no point in bitchen about it.

[certified]

Ten years ago Sarrasas started teachers at 35,000 to 38,000.

Ten years ago you could get a medium pizzza, garlic bread, medium soft drink, and chicken wings for 179 baht.

Ten years ago you could rent a town house as long as a bowling alley lane for 2,500 baht a month.

Ten years ago you could watch a movie for 35 baht.

Ten years ago you would find it difficult to spend 1000 baht on a Saturday night.

Ten years ago the government gave free health care to all the teachers Thai or foreign.

On 37,000 baht a month, ten years ago this way ok, but still a moderate lifestyle.
 
Today why haven't wages been adjusted for inflation? Aren't all the reasons obvious?

[Happy]

From MoE Mukdahan they don't want to see anymore than 25K on any falang teacher contracts.

Paul

[bomha]

My mate from London says he saw proof that his govt. school receives 19,000 plus change, per month, for his salary.  Mind you, he still gets 25,000 per month for 11 months per year, now in his third year there, plus other years experience before that.  Adjusted for inflation, his wages are going down (and his workload keeps going up).

[crocodile]

So why the f*** does he do such a job for such ridiculous money? His own stupid fault.

[fed_up]

Yeah, my sentiments exactly... As long as Thailand has these dumb, no-hopers who are begging to be treated like the workhorse from Animal Farm, we will never get to see real wages.

PEOPLE !! Is it just so hard to say "NO !" ? You wouldn't put up with this kind of BS in your native country, so what is wrong with you ? I just don't understand...

[samvimes]

It's a new mantra

I will not work for less than 45,000 per month
I will not work for a 9, 10, or 11 month contract

Solidarity is a long way away....

[RobRoy]

samvines
don't know about 45K, but here in the big mango less than 40K should come with alot of perks....top of the line medical, <20 contact hours, come and go as you please when you're not teaching, etc.  And I agree about the less than a full year contract...why take one when its easy to find a school that will pay you round the year?  Making 25k and loosing a month of pay...don't think I could live on that kind of money.

[anyonefortennis]

You wouldn't put up with this kind of BS in your native country, so what is wrong with you ? I just don't understand...

Who wouldn't put up with this kinda shit? A fair slice of the people teaching over here have never had a proper job in their home country, straight outta uni and travelling the world - they therefore have no comparative.

Those who have worked as teachers or lecturers in the UK would also probably admit that they do / have in fact put up with a lot of BS, especially since the demise of union power.

What magical power do we have in our home countries?

I worked for a international firm of accountants and a large university in sarf London, and maybe I was just unlucky but I had to put up with a whole bucket full of BS at both places.

At least where I'm living now my rent doesn't jump up every six months as was the case in the UK, in fact there's been no increase in rent at all over the last five years.